Rachel Dratch (2:37)

Five years.

Dr. Allison Ocean (2:37)

We're only dating for five years.

Irene Bremis (2:39)

I don't like that we're going to go beyond.

Dr. Allison Ocean (2:41)

Yes.

Irene Bremis (2:41)

For everybody who doesn't know, I was diagnosed with colorectal cancer in 2025. And after a litany of like just

Dr. Allison Ocean (2:54)

going to Doctors going up to it.

Irene Bremis (2:56)

Okay, that's a great question. So I was very irresponsible. I have to say. I felt great, but I was having. I had, like, blood spotting in my stool. Sorry, this is gonna be little scat talk going on. But anyway, what did you think it was? And I thought it was hemorrhoids. I really did, because everybody was saying it's likely a hemorrhoid. Don't worry about it. You feel great. That's all it is, you know? And I didn't really want to take the time to get in a colonoscopy because I just felt I didn't have time for a colonoscopy. I was busy. And until I started slowing down and started feeling depleted, and I didn't have the energy that I did then. When that all came to a halt, then I finally scheduled my colonoscopy. Diagnosed with a 5 centimeter colon cancer. That's right. Went to one oncologist. That. Rachel came with me again. I love you, Rachel. She came with me again and had, like, a book of questions for this woman, and she couldn't answer a couple of the questions. And I felt like she was just somebody that wasn't listening to me, you know? So I went to her a couple of times, and I was telling her I started this regimen of turkey tail after a very deep dive. And what I did doesn't mean that I want to impose it on anybody else. I really believe that what you decide to do for yourself is the right road that you need to take. For me, I just knew in my core that I wanted to try. I just wanted to do a lot of research. And I did chemotherapy. Scared me more than cancer did. And anybody who's ever done chemo. You're my hero, and I love you. Because literally, people are like, oh, you're so heroic for not doing chemo. I'm like, no, I'm not heroic at all. I was a chicken. And that's what led me to go into an alternative path.

Dr. Allison Ocean (4:45)

What's so important, though, Irene, is that is your intuition, right? Because you. There was something that you knew about yourself that you couldn't bring yourself to decide to get standard therapy. And who knows themself better than themselves, right? I mean, so I think that when someone comes to me and they tell me something, and I'm thinking something opposite, like, oh, no, you need to do xyz. And they're like, no, there's no way I'm going to do xyz. I have to remember that There's a reason why they're telling me that and figure out what that reason is and not just dismiss it right away, because a lot of times they're right and I'm not. And it's like we have conversations when things happen to patients, and patients sometimes give us warnings. Like, they say, I don't want to get that medicine, or, I don't want to do it this way. And then we're so caught in, oh, that's the standard of care. You have to do that. And when we do that and something bad happens, it's like, damn, I should have listened to that person, and I shouldn't have done what I did. I mean, not like killing people. I'm not talking about killing people, but I'm talking about little things, not so little things, meaningful things that I should have listened to them. And, you know, you. There was something that your body was telling you, right?

Irene Bremis (6:11)

Absolutely. I can't. And this is why I stayed with you. Exactly. Everybody. This is why I stayed with Dr. O. Because of what she just said. I felt like you're somebody who wasn't operating from hubris. You weren't led by your ego. You really. You put patient care first, which I did not experience at all until I met you. No one was putting patient care first. And not only that, you're in a foxhole for your patients. You throw down. You don't care. You're intrepid as an oncologist. You don't care. You put the patient first. Whereas other people are afraid to be the unpopular doctor at the hospital. They're more caught up in the politics and in the hamster wheel of the political, the bureaucracy of the hospital. Whereas you just really put me first. And when I was telling the last oncologist that I went to that I started feeling better after starting this regimen of turkey tail and dandelion root. These herbs are miraculous. And they, you know, I found out about them at MSK from the integrative. Yeah, exactly. So this is going to be the future. This is going to be helpful for cancer. It's the future.

Dr. Allison Ocean (7:17)

Change your diet. Right?

Irene Bremis (7:18)

Yes, I did. Radically cruciferous vegetables. I committed a million percent to this. There's no room from deviating from the diet or the protocol when it comes to the herbs. But when I did see you and I told her, I told her that I felt good, sorry, she was just like, well, that doesn't matter. She actually said, that doesn't matter. And when I told you, I'll never forget it, I said, But I. My. My. My. My bowel movements are better. Extra scout talk.

Rachel Dratch (7:47)

Bonus scout talk.

Irene Bremis (7:50)

Bonus scout.

Rachel Dratch (7:50)

It's part of the process.

Irene Bremis (7:52)

Part of the process, anyways. And the bleeding stopped. My energy levels came back. She said that didn't matter. And you said, really? Let's take a closer look at that.

Dr. Allison Ocean (8:03)

I mean, because I wanted to know if you're telling me that you're doing something and it's causing a positive response in you. Okay, let me hear more. Because, you know, you're not making this up. Why would. If you weren't better, you wouldn't say you were better.

Irene Bremis (8:20)

No. Right. Of course I wouldn't say I was better. My cancer not only receded, it was evident on the scans, but it shrunk almost in half, the tumor with what I was doing. But the thing that you did is you were looking up stuff with me. You're constantly growing.

Dr. Allison Ocean (8:34)

You're constantly evolving. Yeah, because I didn't know. You mentioned one supplement that you were taking, and I didn't know what it was, so I'm googling it. You know, Dr. Google here about, you know, on ChatGPT chatting it, and it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've heard of that. And then my biggest thing with supplements is that I want to make sure that it's not going to hurt the person and it's not going to interact with other medications that they're taking. And if there's science behind it, and there is. There are published articles about the efficacy of these treatments. If there's science behind it and it's harmless, then I'm not gonna say no to it.

Irene Bremis (9:14)

Right.

Dr. Allison Ocean (9:15)

I don't necessarily push it. You know, that's me. Cause I don't think, oh, you have to do this. Because I'm an oncologist and I trained with wanting to save people and give standard of care and improve outcomes and everything. But if we keep doing something the same way and get the same results and those results are not good results a lot of the time, why do we keep doing them?

Irene Bremis (9:41)

Yep. That's the definite, literal definition of insanity.

Rachel Dratch (9:48)

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Irene Bremis (11:57)

Also, when I read your bio, I knew I was hooked. But a lot of bios are inflated. You know, they're just, you know, they're hyperbolic. But your bio, it was like, pioneer. This woman is fearless. Like, she throws down. She's incredible.

Dr. Allison Ocean (12:09)

She'll fight. I color outside the lines. Yeah. I never color in the lines. I have to push the boundaries, especially in cancer because, well, this actually came full circle. I don't know if I ever told you this, but I'm okay to say it now. But I had my own experience about eight years ago. Yeah, it's. Yeah. So do you want to hear it?

Irene Bremis (12:36)

Yes.

Dr. Allison Ocean (12:36)

Okay. All right. So I'm, I'm not going to be too graphic, I promise. But it all started when I was 40 years old and I want to have another baby. And at that time I had a beautiful, wonderful 10 year old boy, Jordan, who the light of my life, everything. And I wanted to have another one. And so I wasn't getting pregnant. So I did ivf. And I did one cycle of ivf and then we had like a whole vintage in the freezer of embryos. And then we're going to put them away for a rainy day. And when fast forward, I turned 45 and I wanted to put the embryos in and my husband's like, really? You want to have a baby? You're going to be like 50 when the kid's 5. And. And I said, yes, I want to have another baby. So we went to the my IVF doctor and he said, yes, it's easy to put the embryos in, but you have a fibroid in there that needs to come out. It's just too big. And I said, okay, I'll take it out, you know, and, and Josh is like my husband, he's like, he's saying, are you sure you want to do this? I said, absolutely. So I planned to have it out. And I went through the operation, I had to have this like same C section scar that I did before. And a week later my doctor said to me, he, he barely could get the words out. He said, it's cancer. I said, what? And I was like, oh, I was panicked as anyone is who hears that. What do I do? The first thought was my kid. And you know, obviously. And then I went into action mode and I was like, okay, I'm an oncologist. I can handle this. I can do this. I know what to do. This was a very, very rare, rare, rare, rare thing. Like 1500 cases in the United States, like never diagnosed, hardly ever. And it was just happened to happen to me. So I went into action mode, got all these tests done cold called the doctor that I knew was a specialist in this rare cancer. And this is kind of interesting. She picked up the phone, not her assistant, she picked up the phone and I said, hi, I'm Dr. Ocean, I'm an oncologist. I think I knew you from before. And she said, may have remembered. I said, I have this and I need help. And she said, oh, oh, okay. And she got me in right away and I'm fine, obviously, I'm totally fine. It's eight years, almost nine years later, I had surgery, I had it removed and I'm fine. But to go through that as an oncologist and to have this like your life passes in front of you, right? And you don't. You're just frozen, and you don't know what to do. And I had to channel my. How I treat patients to myself. I had to do that because I want to go to the nth degree to the end of the world to find whatever the best therapy is. And luckily, I didn't need to do that for me. But that was my mindset. I have to have the best this, the best that I want to do this. And, you know, and I did have excellent, excellent medical care. And I'm fine. And I'm so grateful, Grateful for every day. But there were so many instances around my journey that make me realize how much we talked about intuition a little bit. We talked about listening, you know, empathy, all this stuff that we talked about. And I had to do it to myself, too, in addition to how I practice it every day. And so I think that that's a little bit of why I did so well.

Irene Bremis (16:27)

Wow. That's another layer of who you are.

Dr. Allison Ocean (16:31)

Another layer that nobody knows about.

Rachel Dratch (16:34)

I don't usually tell people because, like,

Dr. Allison Ocean (16:36)

what's interesting is that a lot of patients are in front of me, and they're like, you have no idea what I'm going through. And I was like, I do know what you're inside. I think to myself, I know what you're going through. I do. I do. Believe me, I do. But I can't tell everybody this. You know, meanwhile, I'm telling the world. Yes, no, but I'm telling the world for a reason, is that, you know, be your own advocate. And that's what you were. You were your own advocate. I was my own advocate. If something's not right, question it. Keep pushing. You know, don't let a doctor tell you, oh, that's a hemorrhoid. Oh, that's. You know, that bleeding will go away. You know, colorectal cancer is happening to younger and younger people. And now the screening age for colonoscopy is 45, but I think it should be earlier. We're seeing 30s. Yes, we're seeing, you know, people in their 30s, you know, and everyone said, what's causing it? And it's not hereditary factors.

Irene Bremis (17:38)

Mm.

Dr. Allison Ocean (17:38)

It's probably something in the diet. Who knows? But, you know, in our microbiome are the bacteria that lines our intestines has a bacterial composite. And different bacterias promote cells to change different ways. And so some people's bacteria composite may be different than others that lead them to develop cancer. There's a lot of studies are looking at that now it may be environmental, like plastics and stuff. Microplastics in our diet. Who knows? Yeah, like we don't know what it is, but we know that there's. It's really like a pandemic now in younger people. It's soon to be the, I think the second leading. It's definitely the leading cause of cancer death in young people, but the second leading cause of cancer death overall.

Irene Bremis (18:31)

Yes. Yep, I read that.

Dr. Allison Ocean (18:33)

Yeah. So it's really serious and it's younger and younger. So if you have blood in your stool or something's wrong with your poop, please go see a doctor.

Rachel Dratch (18:43)

Uh huh. And it is colorectal cancer awareness Month. Irene told me.

Dr. Allison Ocean (18:48)

That's right.

Rachel Dratch (18:49)

Is that true? Okay. March. So march yourself in to get a colonoscopy.

Dr. Allison Ocean (18:55)

Right.

Rachel Dratch (18:56)

Thank you.

Rachel Dratch (19:01)

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Rachel Dratch (22:23)

One thing just to backtrack a little bit is I know Irene had this sort of like, she like. Cause I was at that first appointment, not with you too. But then before that like, and she was really vehement about not wanting chemo. And I'm sitting there thinking like, okay, Irene, but you gotta like. I was just like we gotta do like follow Western medicine. And then. But she did like all this. She's like Lorenzo's oiled. This Whole thing. And then she was doing all this medical. She wasn't just on Wikipedia, she was like medical journals and calling all these experts. But anyway, so then she found you. Because I think, well, Irene, you say you heard that Dr. Ocean was more open to alternative. Even though you follow all protocols, but you also had this other part of you that's open. So do you wanna talk to them? Right.

Irene Bremis (23:13)

Exactly. Now, what's funny, and I'm so glad that you brought that up, Rach, because what happened was my doctor. I'm not gonna say his name because I don't have permission, but anyway, he's a wonderful surgeon from msk. Recommended you. He recommended you. And when I left that one oncologist, I didn't like her. I wanted this other oncologist there that was on a team. And she wouldn't take me because she was friends with this other oncologist. I'm like, what is this? Mean Girls? Listen to me. Mean girls like mine. I said this to the doctor, the surgeon. We were on the phone. I go, what is this? The cast of Mean Girls? I don't have time for this. You know, I don't. You know. You know what? I now reject her. I don't want her. And can you recommend somebody else? I'm going out of network. And he recommended you, which I thought was weird because, you know, they're so in house there, yet he recommended you. And he said that this woman is a pioneer. She kind of throws down. I worked with her once. Sounded a little scared. Sweetie, if we're talking, a little bit scared.

Rachel Dratch (24:12)

You were scared?

Irene Bremis (24:13)

No, he was.

Rachel Dratch (24:13)

Oh, he was scared.

Irene Bremis (24:14)

He was like this woman is. Because he was scared of who? Not. Not scared, but like. Not scared of you, but like, kind

Rachel Dratch (24:19)

of like your formidable president.

Dr. Allison Ocean (24:20)

Yes, my 4 11.

Rachel Dratch (24:23)

Very scary.

Irene Bremis (24:26)

No, he was.

Dr. Allison Ocean (24:26)

He was like.

Irene Bremis (24:27)

I think this is who. He kind of like matchmaked us, you know, he kind of matched us together and recommended you. And the minute I met you, I saw exactly what he meant. And, you know, you're just open minded. The minute I walked in and I started bringing up certain. Like astaxanthin, which is a high anti inflammatory. I talked to the astrophysicist that actually created this product. If you're out there. He created the most absorbable form of this thing called Velasta, which is Astaxanthin, to mitigate the effects of radiation when astronauts go into space. And I remember bringing that up to you. And you didn't gaslight or think I'm crazy like the first oncologist, right? Or even, I hate to say it, even my surgeon. Until I had to rebuke him gently and then harshly like, don't talk to me like that. This is not okay. You know, I'm not gonna put up with this shit. You know, I'm a human being and I'm giving you, you know, whatever. And then he did. He kind of, you know, reset his tone with me. But you immediately, right away, you were looking. I'll never forget it. You were looking up Valasta. And you go, I have to really look into this more. You know? And that's what I mean about somebody who's open minded, somebody who doesn't just throw out the baby with the bathwater. I mean, there's so much, of course, western medicine is extremely important. I had colorectal resectioning surgery. So I want people to know that I did go western.

Dr. Allison Ocean (25:45)

Yes.

Irene Bremis (25:46)

Okay, I did.

Dr. Allison Ocean (25:47)

And that's the mainstay treatment for this is cut it out, get it out, cut it out.

Irene Bremis (25:51)

I mean, it was like more advanced, but at the same time, I had to shrink the tumor before I could even get the green light for the surgery. You even pushed me for the surgery. I almost didn't even wanna do the surgery. And this is when you don't play. Cause I know that you're open minded, and I don't want people to get confused with being open minded and kind with being a pushover. You are an oncologist, top of your field.

Odoo Sponsor Announcer (26:13)

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Irene Bremis (26:14)

And if you just look her up, she's not a joke. This is. You are very good at what you do. You're at the very top, top pinnacle. So. But. And you said, no, you weren't playing. You were like, no, this is not a joke. Schedule that damn surgery.

Dr. Allison Ocean (26:30)

This is not negotiable.

Irene Bremis (26:31)

This is not negotiable.

Dr. Allison Ocean (26:32)

Right, right.

Irene Bremis (26:32)

And I scheduled it right away. Best thing I ever did. Best thing I ever did.

Dr. Allison Ocean (26:36)

I remember speaking to the surgeon before the surgery, and he was in shock that it got smaller.

Rachel Dratch (26:44)

That was another thing, because people were. I remember Irene, people were doubting you. Like the surgeon. You were like, I feel that it shrunk. You were saying that.

Irene Bremis (26:52)

Yeah.

Rachel Dratch (26:52)

And then I think you met with someone. Okay, lady. You know, and then they saw the actual scans and then they were kind of blown away.

Dr. Allison Ocean (26:59)

Right. And we measured it and then it was like. I don't remember what it was, but then it was five and then it was three, and then it was two. Something. I was like, what? This is okay.

Rachel Dratch (27:10)

Oh, that's what I wanted to ask you. Like, have you seen. No, I don't know how much. If you call this holistic, I don't know. But how much have you seen? Like, have other people come in? Like, is this something that's really, you know, off the norm? Or do people come in with these sort of alternative plans? Like, how much does this cross your path?

Dr. Allison Ocean (27:32)

I would say not. That's a great question. Not often, because most people are just so stunned and scared and they look to me as tell me what to do. But there are people, and you know what I think is interesting is that Irene has a curable disease. So people want to usually think of doing the norm for something curable and they think of maybe doing something out of the box or experimental or something. When something is not curable. Like, I treat a lot of pancreatic cancer and people all the time are, can I add this? Can I do this? Can I take ivermectin? Can I take whatever it is? And because there is no standard, really, that improves survival for a meaningful amount of time, unfortunately, it's such a hard disease. When you're dealing with a curable disease, it's not that common that people decide to, you know, want to do something different than normal. It's not that common. But, you know, like, it goes back to what I said. You know, there's a reason why you were telling me this and I had to listen.

Irene Bremis (28:44)

The mind body connection. The mind body. I love the word curable. You use curable. That's another thing that I went in, I wanted to hear the word curable. Now, I was told that I had to do chemo before to shrink, and then I was told I had to do chemo. But you were so. You were with me on this. You know what I mean? But normally they also recommend chemo after to stop possible spread after surgery, which I had now my surgeon and you and you were like, you know what? We decided, let's keep an eye on this. You said, this is why it's looking good. Remember you, you were showing me my chart again. You're not just saying this to agree. You are somebody that really knows. And you showed me and you said, it's likely not going to come back. Now, I've also continued with the regimen that I'm doing. I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing 100%. So, you know, I, yeah, I'm cancer free. And you know, I. Amazing. And it, and it is amazing, you

Dr. Allison Ocean (29:37)

know, and we're following you really, really closely. Yeah. We have now tests that can detect cancer at the cellular level in the blood. And we check it, and they're called liquid biopsies. They check for circulating tumor DNA. So the DNA, the genetic material of cancer cells, gets shed into the blood, and we can pick it up with a blood test. And they can not only quantify it, they can tell the genes of it. So we know it's what it is. Exactly. That it's related to cancer A and not cancer B. So we know that, and we can use that to monitor people. It's called a test for molecular residual disease. So if there's anything left over from the surgery. And there wasn't.

Irene Bremis (30:29)

There wasn't in stain. There wasn't.

Dr. Allison Ocean (30:31)

And there never was. It was never there. So that's what's so important.

Rachel Dratch (30:36)

And

Dr. Allison Ocean (30:38)

because we have these tests that we can monitor so closely, we can jump on something if it comes up and get it before it becomes something bigger.

Irene Bremis (30:46)

Right.

Dr. Allison Ocean (30:47)

And, you know, we've had to deal with recurrences in people, and. But we get it at the earliest stage when it's still curable.

Irene Bremis (30:53)

Right, Exactly.

Dr. Allison Ocean (30:54)

We can take it out again, you know, if we have to.

Irene Bremis (30:57)

Right. But it ain't coming back.

Dr. Allison Ocean (30:59)

It ain't an exercise, sweetie. It's done.

Irene Bremis (31:02)

It's not coming done. And so I was very excited and, you know, when I asked you to be on this show, because I want the world to know you. Cause I want people to know that if you are not madly in love with your oncologist, then move on and find an oncologist that you are. Because a lot of people feel like they don't have time. They just have to go with who they're with. And I can't tell you how many. In fact, I rarely hear. I like. I don't think I've ever heard I love my oncologist, or I like my oncologist. The first response is, no, I don't like her, but. Or him. I'm with them, though, because, you know, because I didn't know where to go. You know, I feel like I need to get on this right away, you know, so they get stuck. But you need to get an oncologist that's gonna be with you, that's gonna work with you, be a team member. You know, that's part of the deal.

Dr. Allison Ocean (31:48)

Think of how much vetting people go through. When they're, like, buying a house. They, you know, they looking up all the comparables they're, you know, all this stuff they go through. So much detail in trying to decide when they're buying a house. You kind of have to do that when you're finding your doctor too.

Rachel Dratch (32:10)

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Rachel Dratch (34:20)

I was going to ask in terms of the actual alternative treatment that you, you know, put yourself on basically like have you ever told people about these alternative therapies when you're after someone else? Well, just like if you like, let's say someone walked in with Irene's issue Like similar. Like, is it sort of against policy to say like, you know, you might want to try the Irene plan of the turkey tail, da da da da. Because she did all raw, right?

Rachel Dratch (34:50)

Yeah.

Rachel Dratch (34:51)

I mean, you were like really strict.

Dr. Allison Ocean (34:52)

I mean.

Rachel Dratch (34:53)

Cause I know when people find out about this, they all are asking you about it. But also then there's my second part of it, which is like, I mean, you want to always be hopeful, but you don't want to be like, this is a magic potion that always, you know. So I don't know. That's kind of two questions rolled into one.

Dr. Allison Ocean (35:09)

But yeah, you know, it's not. My first line of defense against cancer is to do the alternative. Because we have standards that have been proven to improve survival, to cure people. And we want to. That's our goal. Right. But there I always come back to the science. If there's science for it, I'm going to think about recommending it in combination with whatever I'm doing. Here's two examples. One is Chinese herbs. Okay. So a lot of people ask me about Chinese herbs, should I take them? Lo and behold, when I was an early fellow in my career, we did a clinical trial of using a concoction of Chinese herbs to help combat the side effects of colon cancer chemotherapy. And so people who took the herbs in addition to the chemo had less nausea, less diarrhea, felt better, and they used the herbs to. And this was proven in the study. So is that something? Because I know there's science behind it, I'm willing to recommend. And the other thing is it didn't decrease the efficacy of the chemo. That's the other thing. You have to make sure that whatever you're recommending is not gonna conflict with or interfere with what that you're taking already, because then you can hurt your liver and you don't want to do that. So that's one example and another example, and this is really, really exciting, and this is becoming a clinical trial soon, hopefully is a way of preventing cancer from coming back. And it's using a medicine that is an FDA approved medicine. That's another thing I love is repurposing drugs like a drug that is used for one disease, use it for another disease. Because a lot of these pathways are the same in both diseases and they already have a drug out there. Why don't we repurpose it and use it? So there's a drug for a disease where people have too much copper in their body and the element copper and copper can cause bad things and you Know, scarring of the liver and diabetes. All these bad things can happen when you have too much copper in your body. And there's pill that chelates the copper, removes the copper from the body. There's a amazing body of research led by my mentor, who's now the head of the cancer center at Dartmouth, Dr. Linda Vadat. My mentor started to use this repurposed drug in a very aggressive form of breast cancer called triple negative breast cancer. And what she did was she gave patients that were rendered disease free of all stages of triple negative breast cancer. So stage one, two, three, four, they got surgery, chemo, radiation, hormone therapy, whatever they got for breast cancer. Sorry, yeah, there were hormone sensitive and non hormone sensitive patients. So they, so they got what they got and then they were considered disease free for their stage. And then she gave them all this supplement that's called TM. It's got 27 letters to it. So that's why I'm abbreviating it and calling it TM Tetrathiomagdalate. Okay. So TM and she gave them all TM 100 patients and followed them their progression free survival. This is a cancer that always comes back. If for these hundred patients, if it didn't come back in two years, it didn't come back at all. Okay. There was no comparison arm. Okay. It was a phase two study where they just gave patients the medication and they didn't have a comparator arm. But the progression free survival for the entire 100 patients was something like 72% unheard of. And then if you take out the patients that had stage four disease to begin with because they did a little worse, it was like 80 something percent. Obviously this is preventing cancer. Now how does it do it? So we need copper in our body for certain things. Cancer cells need copper also and they need copper to bind to tissue in the body. So like if a cancer cell is in the blood and it dec. It wants to pick up and live in the liver or the lung or somewhere else, it needs copper and it needs collagen and it needs to form a scaffolding in that tissue so that it can link on and grow and get a blood supply and everything. So when you remove copper from the system, safely remove copper from the system and we do this all very safely, that scaffolding disintegrates and so the cells can't land and they can't take up residency there. And so they die and they don't metastasize.

Irene Bremis (40:26)

Amazing.

Dr. Allison Ocean (40:27)

So now it's in phase three trials, which is amazing with Dr. Vedat at Dartmouth. But I want to do this in GI cancer, so I want to do it in pancreas, which has a horrible tendency to come back after treatment and colorectal cancer. Wow.

Irene Bremis (40:44)

Foreign

Rachel Dratch (40:47)

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Rachel Dratch (40:48)

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Rachel Dratch (41:37)

Blue Land is not killing the plants.

Rachel Dratch (41:39)

I am, but that is a whole other story. Anyway, I love not having to choose between the safe option and what actually gets my home clean. Blueland is on a mission to make it easy for everyone to make sustainable choices. Their products are independently tested to perform alongside major brands and the formulas are free from dyes, parabens and harsh chemicals. Blueland is a certified B Corp and certified cruelty free by Leaping Bunny. Their formulas are EPA Safer Choice certified and many have received the Gold Material Health certificate from Cradle to Cradle. I've been using the products all around

Rachel Dratch (42:17)

my apartment, but I gotta say the

Rachel Dratch (42:19)

two that are my most fave because they seem to in my mind, reduce the most plastic use on my part are the dishwashing tablets and the laundry detergent tablets.

Rachel Dratch (42:29)

They work great first of all. But you know the little pods you're

Rachel Dratch (42:32)

using for dishwashing or your laundry detergent? Those put plastic into the environment. These little tablets do not. And they come in a little metal tin that you can order refills for instead of a big plastic jug that probably lasts 200 years.

Dr. Allison Ocean (42:48)

Wah wah.

Rachel Dratch (42:49)

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Dr. Allison Ocean (43:35)

So many anti cancer treatments come from natural sources like the C. I mean Taxol is a chemotherapy that's used in breast cancer, in lung cancer, in GI cancers. It comes from the bark of the yew tree in the jungle in the Amazon.

Irene Bremis (43:53)

Right.

Dr. Allison Ocean (43:54)

That's how they made Taxol. And so you know, we need to harness that more like to find out. I'm sure there's drugs out there that are in our world that need to be discovered that probably can help with cancer therapy and they just. Someone will stumble upon it one day I think, I hope because we need new drugs. That's right, yeah. All the time we need new drugs.

Irene Bremis (44:25)

Drugs holistic and, and western, eastern. They're not mutually exclusive. They can actually help each other out. So absolutely, I think that that's. We're moving in that direction. Thank goodness. Do some research. So this is what I want to say before we move on. Like don't just do tick tock and find all the videos with people are saying ivermectin and all this stuff. Like you have to do more research. Just don't jump on that other thing blue at whatever the thing that they were inhaling, that blue thing. Because people just go on one thing sometimes. So. So anyway, that's very important.

Dr. Allison Ocean (44:54)

Yes, that's my like I'll say it again. If it's backed with good science and it makes sense and it's gonna help, I am willing to consider it for myself and for patients.

Rachel Dratch (45:06)

I was gonna ask if you've ever seen, you know. Well, this is a little woo woo I guess but like in terms of alternative medicine, like have you ever had someone come in that's I don't know, like another Irene story or whatever. Like a someone that like a radical revision. Someone that just like, okay, I have one.

Dr. Allison Ocean (45:24)

I have many medical miracles which is amazing. And some of them got standard of care and some of them got standard of care but in a non standard way. So one is a physician who came to me with stage 4 pancreatic cancer in 2016 and at that time I was doing a clinical trial of testing chemotherapies through a blood test and finding you draw someone's blood, it's called a chemosensitivity test. And they tell you that this person's cancer cell is gonna respond to these drugs specifically. It was a clinical trial. Cause we don't know if it's really true, if it's gonna be validated or anything. So he signed up for the trial, and it came back with three drugs, One of which we never use in pancreatic cancer, ever. One was we sometimes use, but it's not our first choice. And then the third drug was one that we use. So I was kind of in a bind because, you know, I'm at this major academic medical center. He's on a clinical trial. Am I making up a new regimen? If I give him something like. But then he said to me, what do I have to lose? I'm thinking, you're right. I mean, what we're doing hasn't been helping people. Like this scientific trial based on my own blood, said I should get drugs abc. So I gave him drugs abc. He had a complete response to therapy. It went away. It was everywhere in his belly. Went away. That was 2016.

Irene Bremis (47:09)

The body wants what it needs.

Dr. Allison Ocean (47:13)

Couldn't believe it. So he continues to, like, years go by. And we stopped therapy after a little while. Cause I was like, we have to stop. You know, we can't just do this forever. And checking on him, checking on him. And about three years ago, his tumor marker started to go up. And we did a scan, and in the place where the tumor originally was in the pancreas, it started to show something there again. And so I said, you should have surgery to take it out. And he said, well, let's wait. I'm gonna see what happens. And why are you waiting? Just like he was stage four before, could never have surgery, and now he's no evidence of disease cured because it's years later. And I'm telling him to have surgery, and he's like, no. But anyway, he did. He ended up having surgery, and it was a stage one cancer. So. Okay, Was it a new cancer in the pancreas? Maybe. Was it recurrence of the old one that woke up all of a sudden and decided to grow in the pancreas? I don't know, but it was removed. And what was really cool is, is because we knew we were taking it out, we got fresh frozen tissue from it, and from that tissue, he was able to make a vaccine. And. Yes. And so he had a vaccine made against this cancer, and it was given back to him. And he went through the whole vaccine process, and now he's about two years out from the vaccine, isn't that. That's a medical miracle. Wow.

Irene Bremis (48:54)

Stage four pancreatic cancer, which is very deadly.

Dr. Allison Ocean (48:57)

Nine years, 10 years later. Yeah. 2016. 20, 26. 10 years later.

Irene Bremis (49:03)

How can I get turkey tail into a vaccine? How can we do this? Come on, Joy.

Dr. Allison Ocean (49:08)

I'm gonna. I'm gonna figure it out. No, but we can't.

Rachel Dratch (49:11)

We're.

Dr. Allison Ocean (49:11)

We're working on vaccines. We're working on.

Rachel Dratch (49:13)

That's what I was gonna ask, because I'd never heard of vaccines for. I mean, except I guess you hear about, like, cancer, HPV or whatever. But, like.

Dr. Allison Ocean (49:20)

But that's the thing.

Rachel Dratch (49:20)

But in terms of. So then you.

Rachel Dratch (49:22)

You.

Rachel Dratch (49:22)

How does that work for like. Like, for dummies? Like, you take the tissue.

Dr. Allison Ocean (49:26)

You take the tissue, they sequence it. They find out the proteins that are. That are in. That make up the cancer, and then they manufacture those proteins in a safe way, and then they inject them back into you because you want your immune system to recognize them and fight them. So it's kind of a vaccine is a way of stimulating your own immune system.

Irene Bremis (49:49)

Tailored vaccine. It is.

Dr. Allison Ocean (49:52)

It's basically a way to trigger your own immune system to fight cancer. Because our immune systems have T cells, NK cells that stand for natural killer cells. These are cells that naturally kill cancer.

Irene Bremis (50:06)

Right.

Dr. Allison Ocean (50:06)

We all have them.

Irene Bremis (50:07)

We all have them.

Dr. Allison Ocean (50:08)

But a lot of the times when people get cancer, our own immune systems were inactive. They didn't fight it off.

Irene Bremis (50:16)

Right.

Dr. Allison Ocean (50:16)

So we need to tell our immune systems in a way to wake up and fight it. And the vaccines are a way to do that.

Irene Bremis (50:24)

Wow, that's amazing. And, you know, it sounds. And that's basically what I did with the turkey tail. Turkey tail is a regulator. It's a modulator, so it doesn't kick your immune into overdrive to overstimulate, because that could be harmful.

Dr. Allison Ocean (50:34)

You can attack your own body, but

Irene Bremis (50:36)

it didn't repress it well, because it's a modulator. So I believe you can fight anything if you're immune. I mean, our immunes are. You know, it's when they're repressed that they can't fight disease or they're overstimulated, that they fight against you and hurt your body. Sclerosis of the organs. So what I did with turkey tail, and this is a fact, I've done a lot of vetting on turkey tail, so this is a bold statement, but turkey tail is a modulator. It does not keep your immune into overdrive, and it doesn't repress your immune. This is rare. Not all mushrooms do that, but turkey tail does that. And so that's what I attribute a lot of, like the shrinkage. And yeah, my surgeon was stunned.

Dr. Allison Ocean (51:14)

I know he something had to work on your immune system to shrink this down. Something did. Because why did you get the cancer? Your immune system wasn't working for you, so now you did something to get it revved up enough that we have, we all have the ability to fight cancer. It's just that we need to harness that and make it work for us.

Irene Bremis (51:39)

Right. But I was afraid of a lot of the immunotherapy because I was afraid I have Lyme disease and I thought I would be vulnerable and it would kill me into overdrive. And that's why I felt safe with organic immunotherapy, which is turkey tail, because it was a regulator and it didn't kick me into overdrive. It didn't overstimulate and it didn't repress. So it kept me at a level that I felt like I could fight disease. But anyway, I feel like there's just so much out there and there's hope. There's hope, like between the vaccines and the holistic methods, and we need more open minded, loving, caring oncology and surgeons that see patients and don't gaslight them, then I think we can make a giant step forward. Right.

Dr. Allison Ocean (52:20)

100%. We need to question the past, especially the past that doesn't work, and realize that we have so many tools in the toolbox that we can come together and apply them. And so we're always adding tools to the toolbox. That's how I look at it. And if that's a tool that worked for you.

Irene Bremis (52:42)

Right.

Dr. Allison Ocean (52:43)

And so different tools.

Irene Bremis (52:45)

We all need a lot of tools. Like I said, what? My tool doesn't work for everybody. You know, there's different tools for different people.

Rachel Dratch (52:51)

Can I ask a super quick question? Yes. How did you get into oncology? Like when you're doing your med school, like, what made you want to go into that?

Dr. Allison Ocean (52:59)

I've always loved genetics and I think that's because I'm. I am an identity, an identical twin. So that's. Yeah, talk about woo woo stuff with my twin.

Rachel Dratch (53:11)

Oh yeah, we want to hear those.

Dr. Allison Ocean (53:12)

Oh yeah, yeah. This is a twin endeavor. We'll talk about our.

Rachel Dratch (53:16)

Oh yeah, yeah. We have to open our gifts.

Dr. Allison Ocean (53:18)

Identical twin Jennifer, she got me into genetics and just like all of her twin stuff and studying that and all that. And then in college, I thought I wanted to do something in the world, health. So I thought I would do that. And then fast forward. In medical school, I was liking everything. And then I just came back to biology and genetics and I just felt that cancer was. Cancer is a genetic disease. The genes. When I say genetic, it doesn't always mean hereditary, but it's the genes. And I loved interrogating the genes of the cancer of the tissue and finding out what causes it to grow and how can we stop it from growing.

Irene Bremis (54:02)

And.

Dr. Allison Ocean (54:02)

And so I think that's how I got into it.

Rachel Dratch (54:04)

I like that. Interrogating the jeans.

Irene Bremis (54:07)

I know, I love those.

Rachel Dratch (54:08)

I like that.

Rachel Dratch (54:09)

Oh, okay.

Irene Bremis (54:10)

I do like that.

Dr. Allison Ocean (54:10)

Interrogating the genes.

Irene Bremis (54:12)

Throw that out there, out of context. It doesn't even matter. Like a coffee. And I'd like to interrogate some genes.

Dr. Allison Ocean (54:17)

Yes.

Rachel Dratch (54:18)

Now, before we might, we might get a few little woo woo tales from you.

Rachel Dratch (54:21)

Right.

Rachel Dratch (54:21)

Irene said you might have.

Irene Bremis (54:22)

Yeah.

Dr. Allison Ocean (54:23)

You've got.

Rachel Dratch (54:23)

I don't know or even like. But, but, but before we do that.

Rachel Dratch (54:26)

Okay, so Allison brought us something from Oceans of Blessings.

Dr. Allison Ocean (54:32)

So Jen and I, my twin, we are very into safe, non carcinogenic skincare and beauty products.

Rachel Dratch (54:42)

Ooh.

Dr. Allison Ocean (54:43)

Oh, my gosh. Think of your skin as the biggest organ in your body. We don't wanna put anything on our body that can cause cancer or disrupt hormones or do anything bad.

Irene Bremis (54:55)

So.

Dr. Allison Ocean (54:56)

So we got together and formed a nonprofit and it's called Oceans of Blessings. And what we do is we gift non toxic, non carcinogenic skin care and beauty products to people undergoing cancer therapy. So all of these brands are clean brands.

Irene Bremis (55:18)

Okay, can I please say something? This is so important right now. Because when I was cancer free and during the process, I was looking for non toxic because your skin, like you said, is the biggest organ. It's absorbing it. So I'm eating all clean, doing all these things, and I'm like. And then it's being absorbed. All these chemicals are being absorbed from my skin.

Rachel Dratch (55:36)

So I take it you researched all

Rachel Dratch (55:38)

this and like, do you want to explain it?

Dr. Allison Ocean (55:39)

And we got donations from all these companies, you know, that populate our bags.

Rachel Dratch (55:44)

Okay.

Dr. Allison Ocean (55:45)

So all of these companies have donated clean product.

Rachel Dratch (55:49)

So you give these, you gift these to someone.

Dr. Allison Ocean (55:51)

Can let's say someone has a friend or a relative going through cancer therapy. You could go on our website, oceansofblessings.com and fill out the form, pay, and we send it to them.

Rachel Dratch (56:05)

Amazing.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:05)

And they get this Blessings bag. We call it in the mail.

Rachel Dratch (56:09)

Okay. This is awesome. Because I'm always looking for things you hear about, like, trying to find clean products, and then you get really overwhelmed when you're sitting there in the Walgreens.

Rachel Dratch (56:18)

You have to know which ones.

Rachel Dratch (56:19)

Yeah.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:19)

It's all curated for you.

Rachel Dratch (56:20)

Amazing.

Irene Bremis (56:21)

I've been using this. I've been looking for something like this.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:24)

Thank you.

Irene Bremis (56:25)

Because I don't want to use a chemical.

Rachel Dratch (56:26)

Okay. And again, that's oceansofblessings.com for your clean products, skincare needs.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:34)

Thank you.

Rachel Dratch (56:34)

Thank you so much. Thank you. Bonus. But we did want. But Irene said you might have maybe a twin thing. Yeah. We've never talked about. Do you have a special twin language? Just tell us you do.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:48)

Yes, I do. I do.

Rachel Dratch (56:49)

We absolutely.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:50)

I know what she's thinking every second of the day.

Rachel Dratch (56:52)

For real.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:52)

Yeah.

Irene Bremis (56:53)

Yeah, I do.

Dr. Allison Ocean (56:53)

I know how she's gonna react to everything. We're totally in sync. You know, we. We buy this. We bought each other the same birthday card in different states and send it to each other. Come on. A birthday card?

Irene Bremis (57:05)

That's crazy. Yeah. Let's be honest. Different states.

Dr. Allison Ocean (57:08)

Yeah.

Irene Bremis (57:08)

Like, the fact that two different stores even had the same card.

Dr. Allison Ocean (57:11)

Same exact birthday card. Okay. Things like that. You know, just.

Irene Bremis (57:17)

Yeah.

Dr. Allison Ocean (57:19)

We don't dress alike. But have we worn the same thing to events and shown up with, like, the same thing? Yes. Like, you know, we don't talk about it in advance. Cause, like, Jen's not gonna wear this, but she does. And so we show up wearing the same thing. It's like, okay, great.

Rachel Dratch (57:33)

Is she involved in the medical field at all?

Dr. Allison Ocean (57:35)

She is not. She's a guru in marketing and branding. And so that's what she does. And so that's how she. She was.

Rachel Dratch (57:41)

So all of this stuff, this combines

Rachel Dratch (57:44)

both twin twin powers.

Rachel Dratch (57:46)

Literally.

Rachel Dratch (57:47)

Wonder twin powers activate Oceans of blessings. That's cool. Yes. All right. Oh, my gosh. That was so great. I think we covered everything. We even went on a scientific deep dive.

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:01)

Yes, you did.

Rachel Dratch (58:02)

I feel like I'm more educated than when I started this whole process.

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:06)

We covered a lot.

Irene Bremis (58:07)

We did.

Rachel Dratch (58:08)

That was awesome.

Irene Bremis (58:09)

Very cool. Very amazing.

Rachel Dratch (58:10)

Did Irene tell you we do this little pendulum reading, too?

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:13)

I would love to do that.

Irene Bremis (58:14)

Okay, so here's the thing. Like, you have to think of a question, okay. And don't say it out loud, because I don't want it affected. And then it says a yes or a no, and then we ask you what you asked. Okay.

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:26)

Okay. Okay.

Irene Bremis (58:27)

Using the silver bullet.

Experian Sponsor Announcer (58:30)

She is a beauty.

Irene Bremis (58:31)

I see you've hoarded her for yourself, sweetie.

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:34)

One way means yes.

Irene Bremis (58:35)

Yes.

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:36)

You're getting yes, I'm getting yes.

Irene Bremis (58:38)

Oh, good. What is it?

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:39)

I'm happy about that.

Irene Bremis (58:40)

Okay, good, good. I want you to leave happy. Okay. Racial does safety. Okay, See what you get.

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:45)

Oh, you got.

Rachel Dratch (58:47)

Yeah, but I got it yesterday. I'm the control. Control study. Control study.

Dr. Allison Ocean (58:52)

It's a controlled clinical study. So now I know it's real, it's validated. My question was I've been working on this immunotherapy program that I'm trying to launch that's including a lot of players. And I asked myself, it's kind of boring, but I asked myself, is it going to happen in this coming year? Is it going to come to fruition? It's been a dream of mine to do something and it incorporates vaccines and it incorporates immunotherapies and all this stuff. And I've been working a lot on it. And so I asked not when, but is it going to come to fruition this year?

Irene Bremis (59:29)

And it is. Because guess what?

Rachel Dratch (59:31)

You know what I learned? This is like what I learned today is this is so elementary. I did not realize that your immune system actually fights cancer. Like, I did not realize those two things. I just thought like, you have cancer and it's like I didn't realize it's connected to your own immune system. I only think of immune system as like the flu or whatever. I mean, you know, I feel like I'm a well read person in this world and yet how did I go through all this time without knowing that?

Irene Bremis (60:01)

No, but you didn't know that.

Dr. Allison Ocean (60:01)

No, I knew it. But you just didn't think of it in that way. But like, it's just like fighting the common cold or fighting Covid or fighting this or, you know, people who didn't do so well in Covid didn't have great immune systems.

Irene Bremis (60:14)

Right, exactly right. So yeah, I did not know. It's on fire.

Rachel Dratch (60:18)

Anyway, I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot. Well, thank you so much and of course, thank you for everything you did for our friend Irene over here.

Irene Bremis (60:27)

I mean, I love you, sweetie.

Rachel Dratch (60:28)

We can't say enough. Thanks for that. In particular, I love you and thank you for joining us and taking the time.

Dr. Allison Ocean (60:34)

Thank you for having me. This has been so fun. Love it.

Irene Bremis (60:37)

Amazing.

Rachel Dratch (60:40)

And you can find me on Instagram at Ray Dratch, that's R A E Dratch. And you can find Irene at Irenebremis.

Rachel Dratch (60:48)

That's B R E M I S Bremis.

Rachel Dratch (60:51)

And thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me on this journey

Rachel Dratch (60:57)

into the world of Woo Woo. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe

Rachel Dratch (61:01)

wherever you get your podcasts.

Rachel Dratch (61:04)

Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch is a Q Code production executive Produced by David Henning and Steve Wilson Produced by Alexa Gabriel Ramirez Edited BY Will Tendee.

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