Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch: "Jessica Grose: Near Death Experiences"

Release Date: February 25, 2026
Host: Rachel Dratch with Irene Bremis
Guest: Jessica Grose

Episode Overview

In this episode, Rachel Dratch and co-host Irene Bremis welcome New York Times columnist and author Jessica Grose. The discussion centers on Grose’s deep dive into near death experiences (NDEs), her reporting from the International Association of Near Death Studies (IANDS) conference, and the broader American movement away from organized religion toward more individualized spiritual experiences. The conversation weaves through academic research, anecdotal accounts, personal grief stories, the role of organized religion, and the intersection of skepticism and openness to the unexplained.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to Jessica Grose and Her Work

• Jessica’s Background: Journalist and author, known for her coverage of shifting religious attitudes in America, especially the departure from organized religion while still seeking spiritual meaning ([01:26]–[03:03]).
• Article Focus: Grose’s NYT feature, "What I Saw When I Peeked over the Edge of Consciousness," was inspired by a reader tip about IANDS, a group focused on NDEs and after death communication (ADC).

2. The IANDS Conference: Atmosphere and Participants

• Setting the Scene: Held at a suburban Hilton near Chicago, juxtaposing mundane visuals with profound spiritual discussions ([03:44]).
• Three Main Groups at the Conference ([05:49]):
  • Experiencers: Individuals who've had NDEs, eager to share life-altering stories.
  • Researchers/Scientists: Academics (notably from University of Virginia) documenting and analyzing the phenomena.
  • Grievers: People seeking or having experienced communication with deceased loved ones.
• Conference Culture: The environment was described as warm and open, with explicit encouragement to avoid political debates to maintain focus on personal experience ([06:19]).

3. Common Themes in Near Death Experiences

• Typical Elements on the 'NDE Scale' ([03:44], [08:21]):
  • Out-of-body sensations (hovering over one’s own body)
  • Encounters with light, spirits, religious figures, or dead relatives
  • Life reviews and seeing one’s past play out
• Notable Stories:
  • A woman kicked in the head by a horse at age 12 becomes a music therapist – her NDE was life-changing ([08:21]).
  • A military veteran recalling walking down a beach as a child during their NDE ([08:55]).
• Overarching Pattern: While stories blur together, their similarity raises questions about universal consciousness or neurological roots ([09:47]).

4. NDEs vs. Organized Religion and Spiritual Control

• Religious Institutions’ Resistance ([10:29]):
  • Some Christian leaders dismiss these experiences as blasphemous or misleading, despite overlaps with mystical experiences in religious texts.
• Historical Perspective: Surges in spiritualism during times of mass grief (Civil War era) were often met with efforts by mainstream denominations to suppress them ([11:32]).
• Openness in some Denominations: An Episcopal priest’s call for mainstream faiths to accept experiential spirituality to remain relevant ([13:03]).

5. Science, Skepticism, and the Limits of Research

• Academic Approach: Scientists like Bruce Grayson (UVA) urge respect for the profound meaning NDEs have to individuals, regardless of ultimate “truth,” warning against dismissing such experiences ([15:50]).
  • Quote: "You don’t have to believe in what we're saying, but you have to take these people and these experiences seriously..." (Jessica Grose, [15:50])
• Alternate Explanations?: Although some neurological theories are discussed, the conference is largely a space for validation, not debunking ([17:57]).

6. Grief, After Death Communication, and Personal Stories

• Jessica’s Own ADC:
  • Recurring dreams of a friend lost in a famous plane crash, interpreted by her as unprocessed grief but fitting into common ADC patterns. Sharing her experience at the conference felt cathartic and led to revisiting forgotten memories ([18:35], [25:03]).
  • Quote: "We were babies, you know. I found... I was always so upset by the dream, but weirdly... I found the comfort in telling the people at that conference about it. And I haven't had that dream since." (Jessica Grose, [25:10])
• Signs from the Dead:
  • Stories like a child’s name appearing in the snow at her grave provide comfort and healing to the bereaved, regardless of objective explanation ([18:35]).
  • Group Reflection: The tangible benefit is in emotional processing and communal support.

7. Openness vs. Skepticism

• Opening Up to Woo: The hosts discuss how being open to “signs” or extraordinary experiences changes perception and increases one’s awareness of the unexplained ([22:11]).
  • Quote: "It's more, for lack of a better word, fun to be open to it... Why not? It could make you happier to be open to it." (Rachel Dratch, [22:11])
• Skeptic’s Perspective and Self-Awareness:
  • Jessica notes her own inner “gate” drops when things get too woo, a defense mechanism from her rational upbringing and journalistic training ([46:19]).
  • Quote: "It's like, I almost feel like the gate drops at some point where I'm just like, no... In a medieval castle when, like, the gates just drop." (Jessica Grose, [46:19])
• Hosts Encourage Baby Steps:
  • Sharing her ADC dream at the conference helped breach this internal gate, leading to emotional processing and even positive reframing.

8. Book Recommendations and Resources ([31:44])

• Historical & Foundational Texts:
  • In Search of White Crows: Spiritualism, Parapsychology and American Culture by R. Moore
  • Life After Life by Raymond Moody
  • Works by Bruce Grayson
  • Jung’s writings on synchronicity and Freud’s diaries/letters
• Quote: "There's a point when... you're like, I could literally research this for the rest of my life and write a thesis about it." (Jessica Grose, [32:07])

9. Jessica’s Personal History with Fringe Beliefs

• Growing Up Among the Moonies:
  • Childhood in Westchester among members of the Unification Church (“Moonies”), fueling her fascination with alternative beliefs ([35:36]–[41:46]).
  • Discussion of group marriages, cult doc culture, and the lasting curiosity about why people believe what they believe.

10. A Journalist’s Mindset: Broader Reflections

• Living in the News:
  • Jessica shares the emotional toll of constantly reporting on heavy topics like gun violence, while striving for personal and professional boundaries ([51:21]).
  • She’s also working on lighter cultural trends—e.g., young women’s elaborate nighttime beauty routines supplanting sex ([53:28]).

Notable Quotes & Key Moments

• On Finding Commonality in NDEs:
  • “A lot of the stories did sort of run together, but that's what's special about them, is that they are all similar... maybe there is this sort of singular experience...” (Jessica Gross, [09:47])
• On Religious Authority and Control:
  • “It can be quite threatening for people to have their own individual relationship with spirituality... that is beyond what the church is telling you to do.” (Jessica Gross, [11:32])
• Skeptic’s Take on Belief:
  • “I’m kind of disappointed in myself... I was hoping that I would come away with some spiritual revelation. But my skeptical, like reporter mind just can’t.” (Jessica Gross, [45:53])
• Humorous Recap:
  • “Irene and I are not held by any journalistic integrity... and we'll believe it all, hook, line and sinker.” (Rachel Dratch, [47:47])
• On Emotional Healing:
  • “When you shared it, it was kind of released. That’s so beautiful...” (Irene Bremis, [26:14])
• On Cultural Openness:
  • “That started my lifelong interest in what other people believed and had all these questions about how they were raised.” (Jessica Gross, [37:02])

Notable and Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• [03:03] – Jessica outlines the groups present at the IANDS conference.
• [08:21] – The story of the woman who survived a horse-kick NDE.
• [15:50] – Jessica recounts the scientists’ perspective on the importance of honoring the meaning of NDEs for experiencers.
• [18:35] – Jessica shares her personal after death communication dream and its significance.
• [25:10] – Jessica describes the feeling of despair and eventual catharsis following her recurring dreams.
• [31:44] – Book recommendations for listeners wanting to learn more.
• [35:36] – Jessica’s early experiences growing up among the Moonies, and how it sparked her fascination with fringe beliefs.
• [46:19] – Insightful reflection on the “gate” that closes off her spiritual openness.

Overall Tone and Takeaways

• Playful Skepticism Meets Genuine Curiosity: Rachel and Irene provide humor and encouragement, balancing Jessica’s skeptical but deeply engaged perspective.
• Respect for Experience: The hosts and guest agree on the value of grappling with the unexplained, whether or not it’s “real,” and the emotional support that these spiritual experiences—and discussions about them—provide.
• Rich Context: Listeners are offered both a humanizing look at the conference and research, and a broader view of how American attitudes are evolving past organized religion into personalized spirituality.
• Encouragement to Explore: The episode suggests that both skepticism and openness have their place, and that meaningful exploration—intellectual, emotional, or spiritual—can offer new ways to process life’s mysteries.

Further Resources Mentioned

• Books:
  • In Search of White Crows by R. Moore
  • Life After Life by Raymond Moody
  • Works by Bruce Grayson, Carl Jung, and Freud
  • Signs by Laura Lynn Jackson (discussed by Rachel)
  • In the Shadow of the Moons by Nam Sook Hon (about the Unification Church)
• Media:
  • Netflix docuseries Surviving Death (referenced by Rachel)

Conclusion

Jessica Grose, Rachel Dratch, and Irene Bremis present a thoughtful, funny, and at times poignant conversation about near death experiences, the shifting spiritual landscape, and the role of personal belief in making sense of our lives and losses. Whether you’re a devout believer or a hardened skeptic, the episode encourages openness, empathy, and a willingness to contemplate the great unknown—with or without the help of “the blue dot.”