Jessica Grose: Near Death Experiences

Summary

Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch: "Jessica Grose: Near Death Experiences"

Release Date: February 25, 2026
Host: Rachel Dratch with Irene Bremis
Guest: Jessica Grose

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Rachel Dratch and co-host Irene Bremis welcome New York Times columnist and author Jessica Grose. The discussion centers on Grose’s deep dive into near death experiences (NDEs), her reporting from the International Association of Near Death Studies (IANDS) conference, and the broader American movement away from organized religion toward more individualized spiritual experiences. The conversation weaves through academic research, anecdotal accounts, personal grief stories, the role of organized religion, and the intersection of skepticism and openness to the unexplained.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to Jessica Grose and Her Work

• Jessica’s Background: Journalist and author, known for her coverage of shifting religious attitudes in America, especially the departure from organized religion while still seeking spiritual meaning ([01:26]–[03:03]).
• Article Focus: Grose’s NYT feature, "What I Saw When I Peeked over the Edge of Consciousness," was inspired by a reader tip about IANDS, a group focused on NDEs and after death communication (ADC).

2. The IANDS Conference: Atmosphere and Participants

• Setting the Scene: Held at a suburban Hilton near Chicago, juxtaposing mundane visuals with profound spiritual discussions ([03:44]).
• Three Main Groups at the Conference ([05:49]):
  • Experiencers: Individuals who've had NDEs, eager to share life-altering stories.
  • Researchers/Scientists: Academics (notably from University of Virginia) documenting and analyzing the phenomena.
  • Grievers: People seeking or having experienced communication with deceased loved ones.
• Conference Culture: The environment was described as warm and open, with explicit encouragement to avoid political debates to maintain focus on personal experience ([06:19]).

3. Common Themes in Near Death Experiences

• Typical Elements on the 'NDE Scale' ([03:44], [08:21]):
  • Out-of-body sensations (hovering over one’s own body)
  • Encounters with light, spirits, religious figures, or dead relatives
  • Life reviews and seeing one’s past play out
• Notable Stories:
  • A woman kicked in the head by a horse at age 12 becomes a music therapist – her NDE was life-changing ([08:21]).
  • A military veteran recalling walking down a beach as a child during their NDE ([08:55]).
• Overarching Pattern: While stories blur together, their similarity raises questions about universal consciousness or neurological roots ([09:47]).

4. NDEs vs. Organized Religion and Spiritual Control

• Religious Institutions’ Resistance ([10:29]):
  • Some Christian leaders dismiss these experiences as blasphemous or misleading, despite overlaps with mystical experiences in religious texts.
• Historical Perspective: Surges in spiritualism during times of mass grief (Civil War era) were often met with efforts by mainstream denominations to suppress them ([11:32]).
• Openness in some Denominations: An Episcopal priest’s call for mainstream faiths to accept experiential spirituality to remain relevant ([13:03]).

5. Science, Skepticism, and the Limits of Research

• Academic Approach: Scientists like Bruce Grayson (UVA) urge respect for the profound meaning NDEs have to individuals, regardless of ultimate “truth,” warning against dismissing such experiences ([15:50]).
  • Quote: "You don’t have to believe in what we're saying, but you have to take these people and these experiences seriously..." (Jessica Grose, [15:50])
• Alternate Explanations?: Although some neurological theories are discussed, the conference is largely a space for validation, not debunking ([17:57]).

6. Grief, After Death Communication, and Personal Stories

• Jessica’s Own ADC:
  • Recurring dreams of a friend lost in a famous plane crash, interpreted by her as unprocessed grief but fitting into common ADC patterns. Sharing her experience at the conference felt cathartic and led to revisiting forgotten memories ([18:35], [25:03]).
  • Quote: "We were babies, you know. I found... I was always so upset by the dream, but weirdly... I found the comfort in telling the people at that conference about it. And I haven't had that dream since." (Jessica Grose, [25:10])
• Signs from the Dead:
  • Stories like a child’s name appearing in the snow at her grave provide comfort and healing to the bereaved, regardless of objective explanation ([18:35]).
  • Group Reflection: The tangible benefit is in emotional processing and communal support.

7. Openness vs. Skepticism

• Opening Up to Woo: The hosts discuss how being open to “signs” or extraordinary experiences changes perception and increases one’s awareness of the unexplained ([22:11]).
  • Quote: "It's more, for lack of a better word, fun to be open to it... Why not? It could make you happier to be open to it." (Rachel Dratch, [22:11])
• Skeptic’s Perspective and Self-Awareness:
  • Jessica notes her own inner “gate” drops when things get too woo, a defense mechanism from her rational upbringing and journalistic training ([46:19]).
  • Quote: "It's like, I almost feel like the gate drops at some point where I'm just like, no... In a medieval castle when, like, the gates just drop." (Jessica Grose, [46:19])
• Hosts Encourage Baby Steps:
  • Sharing her ADC dream at the conference helped breach this internal gate, leading to emotional processing and even positive reframing.

8. Book Recommendations and Resources ([31:44])

• Historical & Foundational Texts:
  • In Search of White Crows: Spiritualism, Parapsychology and American Culture by R. Moore
  • Life After Life by Raymond Moody
  • Works by Bruce Grayson
  • Jung’s writings on synchronicity and Freud’s diaries/letters
• Quote: "There's a point when... you're like, I could literally research this for the rest of my life and write a thesis about it." (Jessica Grose, [32:07])

9. Jessica’s Personal History with Fringe Beliefs

• Growing Up Among the Moonies:
  • Childhood in Westchester among members of the Unification Church (“Moonies”), fueling her fascination with alternative beliefs ([35:36]–[41:46]).
  • Discussion of group marriages, cult doc culture, and the lasting curiosity about why people believe what they believe.

10. A Journalist’s Mindset: Broader Reflections

• Living in the News:
  • Jessica shares the emotional toll of constantly reporting on heavy topics like gun violence, while striving for personal and professional boundaries ([51:21]).
  • She’s also working on lighter cultural trends—e.g., young women’s elaborate nighttime beauty routines supplanting sex ([53:28]).

---

Notable Quotes & Key Moments

• On Finding Commonality in NDEs:
  • “A lot of the stories did sort of run together, but that's what's special about them, is that they are all similar... maybe there is this sort of singular experience...” (Jessica Gross, [09:47])
• On Religious Authority and Control:
  • “It can be quite threatening for people to have their own individual relationship with spirituality... that is beyond what the church is telling you to do.” (Jessica Gross, [11:32])
• Skeptic’s Take on Belief:
  • “I’m kind of disappointed in myself... I was hoping that I would come away with some spiritual revelation. But my skeptical, like reporter mind just can’t.” (Jessica Gross, [45:53])
• Humorous Recap:
  • “Irene and I are not held by any journalistic integrity... and we'll believe it all, hook, line and sinker.” (Rachel Dratch, [47:47])
• On Emotional Healing:
  • “When you shared it, it was kind of released. That’s so beautiful...” (Irene Bremis, [26:14])
• On Cultural Openness:
  • “That started my lifelong interest in what other people believed and had all these questions about how they were raised.” (Jessica Gross, [37:02])

---

Notable and Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• [03:03] – Jessica outlines the groups present at the IANDS conference.
• [08:21] – The story of the woman who survived a horse-kick NDE.
• [15:50] – Jessica recounts the scientists’ perspective on the importance of honoring the meaning of NDEs for experiencers.
• [18:35] – Jessica shares her personal after death communication dream and its significance.
• [25:10] – Jessica describes the feeling of despair and eventual catharsis following her recurring dreams.
• [31:44] – Book recommendations for listeners wanting to learn more.
• [35:36] – Jessica’s early experiences growing up among the Moonies, and how it sparked her fascination with fringe beliefs.
• [46:19] – Insightful reflection on the “gate” that closes off her spiritual openness.

---

Overall Tone and Takeaways

• Playful Skepticism Meets Genuine Curiosity: Rachel and Irene provide humor and encouragement, balancing Jessica’s skeptical but deeply engaged perspective.
• Respect for Experience: The hosts and guest agree on the value of grappling with the unexplained, whether or not it’s “real,” and the emotional support that these spiritual experiences—and discussions about them—provide.
• Rich Context: Listeners are offered both a humanizing look at the conference and research, and a broader view of how American attitudes are evolving past organized religion into personalized spirituality.
• Encouragement to Explore: The episode suggests that both skepticism and openness have their place, and that meaningful exploration—intellectual, emotional, or spiritual—can offer new ways to process life’s mysteries.

---

Further Resources Mentioned

• Books:
  • In Search of White Crows by R. Moore
  • Life After Life by Raymond Moody
  • Works by Bruce Grayson, Carl Jung, and Freud
  • Signs by Laura Lynn Jackson (discussed by Rachel)
  • In the Shadow of the Moons by Nam Sook Hon (about the Unification Church)
• Media:
  • Netflix docuseries Surviving Death (referenced by Rachel)

---

Conclusion

Jessica Grose, Rachel Dratch, and Irene Bremis present a thoughtful, funny, and at times poignant conversation about near death experiences, the shifting spiritual landscape, and the role of personal belief in making sense of our lives and losses. Whether you’re a devout believer or a hardened skeptic, the episode encourages openness, empathy, and a willingness to contemplate the great unknown—with or without the help of “the blue dot.”

Transcript

[Rachel Dratch]

Welcome to Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch, the podcast that explores the unexplained with humor and curiosity. Hello, and welcome to Woo Woo with

Rachel Dratch, here with Irene Bremes. As always. Hi, Irene.

[Irene Bremes]

Hi, sweetie.

[Rachel Dratch]

Hello, Irene. So the other day I'm flipping through New York Times. Well, scrolling through New York Times, and I. And I was like, this is very Woo Woo based. And then I wrote to the author of the article and instantly roped her in to be here with us. And you probably read. If you read the New York Times or you read books, you've probably read many of her pieces. And here she is. Please welcome Jessica Gross to the show.

Hi, Jess.

[Irene Bremes]

Hi.

[Jessica Gross]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

[Rachel Dratch]

Thanks for coming on. So I read your stuff a lot. You pop up with all these kind of fun human interest articles that I've seen. A lot of stuff about moms that I've seen. And I know you've written books, too.

[Jessica Gross]

I have. I wouldn't recommend doing that. Well, then it's not fun. But I'm very proud. I'm very proud of them. It's too much work, that's why.

[Rachel Dratch]

Okay.

[Jessica Gross]

I'm very proud of the books that I've written.

[Rachel Dratch]

Okay, well, tell us the name of this article.

[Jessica Gross]

What I Saw When I Peeked over the Edge of Consciousness. So I have been reporting on Americans moving away from organized religion for the past three or four years. So this is one of the biggest societal changes that I felt was underreported. In the 1950s, 2% of people said they were atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular. And now it's between 30 and 40%. But that doesn't mean that people aren't interested in spirituality or don't believe in God. So I've been doing all of these stories about different ways people express their beliefs and different ways of observing. And a reader wrote in to me about a year ago saying, you should look into my organization. It is called the International association of Near Death Studies. And when she wrote to me, it was about a few days after their annual conference, which they have every year, and about 700 people come. And I was like, I gotta go to this conference. And so it is a conference of researchers who study near death and other extraordinary experiences. So the biggest one is called ADCs or after death Communication. So that's the idea that the living can communicate with the dead in various ways. So it's researchers from major academic institutions, the biggest one being the University of Virginia. Then it is people who have had near death experiences themselves, then it is also people who are deeply in grief and really want to communicate or have communicated with their lost loved ones. And then it's a variety of sort of new age seekers. And I went to the conference in August and I talked to so many people and I was so deeply moved by what I found and I wrote about it. So that's that piece.

[Rachel Dratch]

So, I mean, where do I begin with is. We've talked a little bit, as I mentioned to you. Well, I'm friends with Ricky Stern who did Surviving Death. So we, we had her on and we've done like telepathy tape stuff, but we haven't really talked that much about. We've done a lot of like goofy ghost stories and stuff like that. Yeah, but we haven't done really like the scientific in big quotes, but whatever. Like the, the more, you know, like you said, UVA has a big department on this. So this is kind of our like Intro 101 to this world. In a way. I'm glad we have a legit journalist here. I don't know if you call yourself a journalist or a writer, but where was this conference that you went to?

[Jessica Gross]

It was right outside Chicago. They have it in a different place every year. So it's just at a regular Hilton. You know, it's nondescript, suburban, and it was really fascinating to see the sort of juxtaposition of people having really deep spiritual experiences and you know, this gross carpeting of I've been there and like bright conference room relighting. It was surreal. But there were a lot of presentations from a lot of different, you know, people who research it. And I should be clear, like I, I am a skeptic, I am not a believer, but I am fascinated and I have tons of friends who are believers. And I am just endlessly interested in stories of alternative beliefs and religion and how people find meaning in their lives. So the research generally tends to be collect stories from people who have had near death experiences. And they compare it along this near death experience scale which was developed by psychologist named Bruce Grayson. And there are 16 items in the scale. They include time speeding up a life review. So going back through everything that's happened to you, a sense of peace, harmony, or light separation from one's body. That means you're sort of hovering above yourself and seeing what's happening in your corporeal form and then encountering a religious spirit, mystical being or dead relative. Those are parts of this scale. And these near death experiences, a lot of the cataloged ones have all of these things in common. And some people I think ended up more on this side of the ledger, think that there's neurological explanations either that we already know or that we may know in the future to explain why this is such a common trajectory of experience in near death. But a lot of people believe that it is proof that there is consciousness beyond what we know of life and death, or that it is proof that there is an actual afterlife.

[Rachel Dratch]

And so you said that the groups of people at this conference were to break it down in the main three categories. There's like people that had had near death experiences and then the scientists and then the grievers. And I was sort of wondering like when you're going around this thing like for the near death experiencers, was it like sort of people sharing their stories like to a group or was it more just like, oh, I feel so seen because I'm with other people that have had this or people giving talks about their experience just to start with that.

[Jessica Gross]

I mean there were so, so many panels. There was no way that I could attend them all like that. At every hour there were like six different panels going on. And a lot of them were people who were, you know, in the parlance of the conference, it's experiencers. So a lot of people themselves who were experiencers just saying, this is what happened to me, this is how it changed my life. And if you walk up to any of them, they will just tell you the whole story. And they're really excited to share. The openness of every single person that I talked to was beautiful. Truly. They just were so there to share. And that's obviously some why people are so drawn to the conference because there's such a sort of open mindedness. And there actually were. This didn't end up in the piece, but there were signs up in a few places saying like, I don't remember exactly the wording, but it was like, please don't get into politics, like just don't. All beliefs are welcome, but like let's not start it right now. Which I actually I appreciated because I think part of what people are looking for in this moment is something beyond just the day to day bad news that we see in the newspaper. Right? It's something deeper, it's something more that they can understand about themselves or about their purpose in life. And so there was sort of a soft encouragement to stay away from, you know, thorny cultural issues perhaps and just more about like sharing your personal experience and the other people sort of listening and accepting. And I Saw that pretty much everywhere. There was really such a warmth to the experience in that way.

[Rachel Dratch]

What were some of the near death experiences you heard? Like a specific one. Like, did you just to start with this group of the people, like, did you come out shifted. But I know that entails all three groups of people to ask that big question at the end, but did any of the near death experiences make you go like, oh my God, I can't wait to tell my friends this one. Or was it sort of like the cliches we hear about seeing a light?

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah, I mean, the one that stuck with me just because it was a little funny was one woman who got kicked in the head by a horse. You know, she got kicked in the head by a horse when she was 12 and it totally changed her life. And now she is like a music therapist and a sound bath person. And the way she told her story was very like engaging. So she's the one that sticks out to me the most.

[Rachel Dratch]

When she got kicked in the head, like, did she have a story about what she. Like, did she see a light or whatever? Where did she go? Where does she. Or maybe nowhere.

[Jessica Gross]

I don't know. I'm trying to remember her specific experience. They do kind of run together because they are very similar to that scale. You know, it is often a light. It is like communing with your grandparent. It is. You know, I saw myself as a child walking down the beach. That was one that I heard that that was from a really amazing guy named Chase. There were a lot of veterans involved at the conference. He had had this near death experience when he was in the military, when he was, I think 18 or 19. And he described, you know, have this vision of himself as a child walking down the beach and feeling like this sense of comfort. So, you know, a lot of the stories did sort of run together, but that's sort of what is special about them, is that they are all similar. Right. You know, there is. Which makes it feel like maybe there is this sort of singular experience that many people are having.

[Irene Bremes]

Right.

[Jessica Gross]

And it is, you know, life changing for many people. And I mean, not everyone. Again, there's not sort of a uniformity. But yeah, there was a lot of similarity.

[Irene Bremes]

Well, I have a question. I was going to say, you know, I've been obsessed with near death experiences for like, I think like 30 years now. I'm just obsessed with it. I always find it really fascinating that they all have like very similar testimonies, like you said, which. And they're also a lot of them are neurologically dead. They're literally physically dead. And they're having this experience that can't be explained often by science. And I think a lot of this. When I was reading your article, what really kind of like struck me is that you said that a lot of these people are turning away from traditional Christianity.

[Jessica Gross]

Now.

[Irene Bremes]

I was raised a Greek Orthodox, which is very similar to Catholic. We're taught to believe that there's a heaven and a hell, which sparked my interest into near death experiences in the first place. And it's interesting that when you bring up these things to your pastor, which I've had deep debates with my pastor, they think it's like a ruse, like it's Satan, like they don't want to accept it. Really funny to me that the very people that are preaching there's a higher consciousness, there's a God, don't really want to believe that there's a living God with a higher consciousness when people are testifying to that, even though it's written in the Bible, like, you know, St. John saw heaven, was shown heaven, people have seen angels, Enoch was taken to heaven out of body. There's a lot of these same similar experiences, but they've been taken out of the Bible. They weren't included in, into parts of the Bible. So I love that you were talking a lot about these Christian groups that are using organized religion to control people, but are really not, I don't know, they're not believing in what they're preaching in a sense.

[Jessica Gross]

I mean, I think it can be not always. I mean, I think it depends on the denomination and the individual faith leaders. But I think it can be quite threatening for people to have their own individual relationship with spirituality or with a higher power that is beyond what the church is telling you to do. And we had sort of saw this historically with. There was a big burst of spirituality in the mid 19th century, kind of around the Civil War. People were really losing a lot of family members and they couldn't bury them because there was, you know, it was happening, you know, hundreds of miles away and there was no modern transportation. And they were looking for a way to sort of speak to these family members or sort of process their grief. And this was extremely threatening to a lot of mainstream denominations. And they really tried to snuff it out at the time. And it kind of lost popularity over time for a variety of reasons because these things like go up and down in terms of belief and mainstream acceptance. But I think it can be very threatening. But I did talk to an Episcopal priest who was there, who was like a lovely guy, and he was saying he thought it's so important for mainstream denominations to be more accepting of these experiences and be more open to where their parishioners are rather than trying to, you know, really put them in a box.

[Rachel Dratch]

If you've been on social media lately, I'm sure you've heard people talk about the importance of gut health, but how do you actually get better gut health, especially in colder months? Brodo's Bone Broth this podcast is sponsored by Brodo. Welcome to the hottest trend in nutrition for the last 2000 years. Bone broth. Brodo's bone broths are made from scratch. No concentrates, no preservatives, no shortcuts. So you get the best broth money can buy. My favorite flavor from the sampler pack Brodo sent me was good old fashioned chicken. So good you can drink it on its own because Brodo makes bone broths that are delicious enough to drink. And each cup delivers whole food protein, about 10 grams per serving, along with collagen, building amino acids, electrolytes and nutrients to support gut health, immunity, joint skin, and general wellness. All under 50 calories and with zero sugar or fat. I first became aware of Brodo when I would see a giant line outside this little storefront in New York City and I was like, what is all the fuss about here? Well, it was Brodo and now Brodo has expanded and you don't have to be in New York City. You don't have to wait in a line. Brodo can be delivered right to your door. Also, I love making soup. And Brodo broth takes soup to a whole new level. It has that homemade taste because it's real. And Brodo comes in eight delicious flavors, including. Ooh, I really want to try this one. Ginger, turmeric and coconut curry Lime. Interesting. Also, I need more protein and Brodo is the perfect way to get it. So shop the best broth on the planet with brodo. Head to brodo.com woo for 20% off your first subscription order and use code woo for an additional $10 off. Once again, that's brodo.com woo for 20 percent off your first subscription order and an additional $10 off if you use my promo code woo. Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Jessica Gross]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts

[Irene Bremes]

in time for this class.

[Rachel Dratch]

I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh they're so fast.

And breathe. Oh, sorry.

[Jessica Gross]

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw

[Rachel Dratch]

the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts. I was going to ask you about the scientists. I know there's some like big sort of head honchos in this field, and I guess a few of them were there who've written these sort of seminal books about these topics. But did you get the chance to hear any of them or was it just like in terms of the scientific element of this.

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah. So I interviewed Bruce Grayson, who's one of the sort of main. He used to run the Department of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia, which is sort of the main academic center for this research. I talked to him before I went to the conference and I saw him at the conference and then I talked to another scientist there for a long time. My interview with her did not end up in the piece, but her name is Marietta Peliavenova. And their sort of big point is you don't have to believe in what we're saying, but you have to take these people and these experiences seriously because they are so meaningful to the people who are happy. And if you do not take them seriously and you don't really help them through their grief and they're sort of trying to get back to their lives, it's going to be really harmful for them. And I thought that was so true and so compelling because whether or not you have the typical near death experience sort of trajectory and you see the light, almost dying is like a very intense experience for any human being. And to just sort of be gaslit and dismissed about what you feel about that experience is not helpful. So I was really moved by that. That was really such the main takeaway from them. It wasn't like, you must agree that all of this research is true. And most scientists, when you interview them are very caveated. They say like, well, this is only what we know from the research. They're not trying to proselyt. They're just trying to explain what they've found and the sort of human impact on the people that they have talked to and studied.

[Rachel Dratch]

But I was wondering, did anyone at this conference from the science background here give any sort of, well, here's what this could be physically instead of. I guess that wouldn't be the place to do it. But did you research that?

No.

[Jessica Gross]

I mean, they did only to say like, and that's wrong because they definitely were not open to the idea that this could all be. They could be wrong about all of this. Right? And exactly as you say. Like, it's not.

[Rachel Dratch]

It's not the place.

[Jessica Gross]

Why would that be a big topic of discussion at this conference? That's not what it's about. But they definitely discussed it a little bit, only to say, and here's why that's not true.

[Rachel Dratch]

Okay, and then what about the whole. The grievers and the idea of signs and connection between the living and dead? Like, that's a whole other chapter of this group.

[Jessica Gross]

The reason I was so intrigued when I heard from this reader is because I had had what they would call an after death communication. And what I would say is just me dealing with unprocessed grief from when I was a kid. A good friend of mine died in a plane crash the summer after I graduated from middle school. So right after eighth grade, it was Flight 800, which is a very famous plane crash. She was on it with her parents. It was awful. It was just so horrible. And she came to me in dreams periodically throughout my life. And she would be the same age as I was in these dreams. And she would always be flying above me. And she would say, you're sad because you think I did not get to go to college, get married, have kids, like whatever I was doing at that time of my life. And she would say, but I'm on some other plane and I'm getting to do all these things. So that should make you feel better that I am getting to have this life. And the dream was the same every time. And I had never told almost anybody about it. I'd never talked about it, but it had really affected me, these dreams. And I started talking about it constantly at the conference because it was a way to connect with the people who were there. And saying, even if my explanation for this experience is not spiritual, I can completely understand how it could be right? And that I wish that it were true. I wish that she was getting some kind of other existence on a different spiritual plane. That would be amazing. So that was sort of my way in emotionally to something that I'm not sure I actually believe in, but I could really connect with people about their stories and hearing how they had loved ones show up for them. And so the one couple that I talked to there just absolutely broke my heart. They had lost a child and they showed me the picture of going to visit their grave. And there was her name. It really did look like her name written in melted Snow. Her name was Mia. And they showed me the picture and it did look like her name, you know, and they had seen that when they went to visit her on the year anniversary of her death. And so that's unforgettable. That's just totally moving and touching. And whether or not anybody believes that that is her communicating, like, who cares what I believe or anybody, you know, it was so beautiful for them and so helpful in their deep just, you know, I know your parents like that. That kind of grief is unimaginable to me. And so just talking to them was really profound and beautiful.

[Irene Bremes]

I mean, in a way, you're right. You're so right. And it's a way of healing for them, of course. You know.

[Jessica Gross]

Exactly. Wow.

[Rachel Dratch]

I feel like when we first started doing this, like this whole signs thing, I was really skeptical about. But then. Well, first of all, I got my own sign, which I've talked about on the show. Like two years into doing this podc, I got a pretty big sign. And then I read that book, Signs by Laura Lynn Jackson. I don't know if you've heard of that book. I've heard of it, but I haven't read it. But there's like very specific, like the stories in there are so. They're just so specific that you're like, I feel like it's more, for lack of a better word, fun to be open to it. It's more like, why not? It could make you happier to be open to it. And I also feel like Irene and I have talked about this before.

[Jessica Gross]

True.

[Rachel Dratch]

But like, the more that you open up to the whole like, woo woo of it all, I feel like the more you'll see, like, the more. Of course we don't want to be thought of as cuckoos, but it's still, I don't know, I feel like the more you're open to it, the more you'll actually notice.

[Irene Bremes]

Which makes sense because if you're closed off, you're not going to see anything. But if you're open, you're willing to receive, you know, so you're not going to see any of this or make any connections if you're not open, period. You have to be open.

[Rachel Dratch]

I had no idea cotton and satin were causing frizz and sleep creases until I switched to blissy silk pillowcases. I know it sounds like magic that I'm talking about, but this is no woo woo solution. Silk pillowcases are actually better for your hair and skin. You'll see healthier skin in weeks.

Because you know what?

Silk pillowcases help prevent breakouts. It's true. And better hair in days. Silk pillowcases reduce frizz, breakage and preserve styles and colors. And coincidentally, my hairstylist actually told me to use silk pillowcases without even knowing that I'm talking about them right here. Plus, silk has added benefits. Silk is naturally cooling and I can attest to that. The pillowcases stay super cool, breathable, hydrating, and they're hypoallic. But wait. What if I told you that they

are also easy to care for because

they're fully machine washable?

I'm not kidding.

Fully machine washable. And they come in over a hundred colors with new Wicked and Harry Potter designs.

And wait a minute. For you. Woo Woo fans. A Zodiac collection.

Sign me up for Pisces now. Also, Blissey makes a perfect, practical and loved gift. Perfect for birthdays, bridal showers, anniversaries and more. And there's additional products. Yeah, I ordered a sleep mask too

and I love it.

And because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free plus an additional 30% off when you [e-mail] Woopod that's B L I S S Y.com Woopod and use code Woopod to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you.

[Jessica Gross]

A KFC tale in the pursuit of

[Rachel Dratch]

flavor the greatest insult the Colonel ever

[Jessica Gross]

suffered was being served a wrap that was just a snack by friend.

[Rachel Dratch]

So he took two crispy tenders, lettuce,

[Jessica Gross]

tomatoes and pepper mayo and wrapped them in a soft tortilla.

[Rachel Dratch]

It wasn't a snack, it was a meal. He called it a twister and never called that friend again.

[Jessica Gross]

The Colonel lived so we could chicken the Twister. Now back at KFC Classic or with bacon. Also try it spicy. It's finger licking. Good. Prices and participation may vary.

[Rachel Dratch]

When.

When you would Jess, when you would have that dream, like did you wake up sort of with a feeling of comfort or.

[Jessica Gross]

No, I woke up with a feeling of despair. Just so sad. I mean I. My. So my older daughter is now in eighth grade and I just look at her and we were babies, you know. I found I was always so upset by the dream, but weirdly, or maybe it makes complete sense. Like I found the comfort in telling the people at that conference about it. And I haven't had that dream since.

[Irene Bremes]

Wow.

[Jessica Gross]

It always happened irregularly, but I don't know if something was sort of released by telling people about it, but I wish that it had Been comforting. It was so sad to me and I think made me also miss her, you know, like, maybe if it was, you know, like I said, I'm a skeptic. I think it was just me dealing with my grief. But when I would wake up from it, I would just be like, I'm so sad I didn't get to actually grow up with you in this way that we could have. So I wish it had given me comfort.

[Irene Bremes]

Wow. But it's interesting that when you shared it, it was kind of released. That's like so beautiful in a sense, you know, it's amazing.

[Rachel Dratch]

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

And it made me, and I talk about this in the piece, but like, it made me remember all of these things that I had totally forgotten about. Spending time at her house. I slept over at her house every Friday night. Like, do you remember being a middle school girl and just like sleeping over the same friend's house every single week? I grew up in a really small town and my mom could not sew for shit. She was just a disaster at crafting. And my friend's mom had sewed me a Halloween costume one year and I had totally forgotten that. And I had all of these. When I was telling people about these dreams, I had all these memories kind of rushed back that I hadn't thought about in 30 years. Like, you know, sitting at her kitchen table and you know, just all these sort of flashes of memory. And that was amazing to have. Like, I really appreciated bringing all this stuff up that like again. And this is another sort of reason I really want about to write about this. Like in day to day life, there's so few chances to talk about this stuff without either sounding crazy or like you're wallowing in the past. It's like there's no space for it, I think in our day to day culture. And people really need it.

[Rachel Dratch]

That's why we're providing this platform right here.

[Irene Bremes]

Doing hashtag God's work.

[Rachel Dratch]

Doing the Lord's work.

[Jessica Gross]

Exactly.

[Irene Bremes]

God's work, sweetie.

[Rachel Dratch]

But I am wondering like in terms of your friend and having gone to this conference now, which was in August,

[Jessica Gross]

you said it was Labor Day weekend. Okay, so it was like a long weekend.

[Rachel Dratch]

I was wondering if now having gone, like, would you, I don't know, would you see or ask for or whatever, some sort of other sign, like move into some other, for lack of a better word, like relationship with either her or your grief around it and you did it sort of like spur you into some other way of thinking or was it more just observing and Collecting.

[Jessica Gross]

I think it was really cathartic, and I think it made me think really differently about grief that I had than I had previously, and I should say so. My parents are both retired doctors, and they were both very sort of rationalistic and not woo woo as the title of your podcast. But my mom has always had sort of these flashes of sort of like touching the beyond is, I guess, how I would put it. So there's been a couple times where she's woken up in the middle of the night and thought about someone, and it's like the moment that they died. And she had some. I can't remember the details of it, but she had some experience when my grandmother was dying, which made her sort of feel like something was happening. And my husband's grandmother just died, which is like, kind of incredible. In their 40s, has their grandmothers.

[Irene Bremes]

I was thinking it. I was thinking it.

[Jessica Gross]

He had two grand. Yeah, he had two grandmothers, actually, that I met. I got to know really well. They were both like incredible women. And the grandmother who just died within the past year, her grandchildren, in the moment that they heard, they were at a restaurant when they heard about her death, and a song came on that they had. I can't remember, it was like they had listened to with her or they associated with her, like in the moment that they had heard of, that they heard about her death. Wow. And they felt very much that that was, you know, a sign, a communication from her. And. Well, the other amazing thing about her is she and her husband were super into est in the 70s, which, like, I just, again, I have always been fascinated by fringe groups and outside belief systems. And I think EST did not sort of end well for the people who did it.

[Rachel Dratch]

I think so.

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

Who got, like, really into it. But she was always very into sort of the whole other world.

[Rachel Dratch]

Well, the synchronicity, which. I'm gonna drop the Jung here. No, but you mentioned that. You mentioned that in your. In the article about Carl Jung and synchronicity. And these, like, even something just like hearing that song when the grandmother died. I'm just trying to throw an intellectual bent onto this.

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah. So synchronicities are meaningful coincidences. They're not just random. They are. Have some sort of greater meaning in terms of, you know, you're making meaning of your own life or sort of the greater energy of the universe. He was really processing these ideas in the last years of his life. So the fathers of modern psychiatry and psychology were very interested in extraordinary occurrences or, you know, there's Sort of different lingo that they use to describe what these things are, but sort of consciousness outside our day to day consciousness. So Freud was really interested in all these things and you can see in their writings and diaries. I mean, I did months of research about all of this, and again, the history of it is really, really fascinating. So if you're a huge dork like me, you will enjoy.

[Rachel Dratch]

Wait, can I ask you, for myself and for listeners, what are some books that you read for your research that you would recommend? Cause I know you mentioned a few.

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah, my favorite that I read, which is a historical book which was out of print, so I had to comb the depths of Amazon to order it. But it was called In Search of White Crows.

[Rachel Dratch]

In Search of White Crows.

[Jessica Gross]

Yes, In Search.

[Rachel Dratch]

In Search of White Crows. Okay.

[Jessica Gross]

And the subhead is Spiritualism, Parapsychology and American Culture.

[Rachel Dratch]

Okay.

[Jessica Gross]

And it is by an academic named R. Moore. That was the most helpful to me. But then I just, you know, I read. I read all of the books by the major figures. So I read Raymond Moody's book. His book, Life After Life is sort of considered the foundational text of the International association of Near Death Studies. It was sort of one of the first mainstream books. I read Bruce Grayson's books. I read sort of all of the major near death experience books and research on that. And then I read Jung, I read Freud, I read their diaries and letters. I read what else? I think that is most of it. There's a point when you're a journalist and you're doing research where you're like, I could literally research this for the rest of my life and write a thesis about it. Yes, but because you have other things to do, you have to keep it moving and like, you know, finish at some point. But it just is like, it's sort of endlessly interesting because it's not just about the beliefs themselves, but it's how they interact with culture.

[Irene Bremes]

Right.

[Jessica Gross]

Because all of our religious observances are relational. They're not just about ourselves. They're about how we're interacting with other people in the world around us and how we're making meaning of the things that are happening.

[Rachel Dratch]

Good hair days do more than we

give them credit for.

When your hair feels healthy, you show up differently. You're more confident, more relaxed. You're not constantly checking mirrors or adjusting your hair. Your hair becomes one less thing competing for your attention throughout the day. And Nutrafol supports hair health from within, working over time to deliver results you can see and feel. So your hair becomes something you enjoy, not something you stress about. Nutrafol is the 1 dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the 1 hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested to measure improvements in hair growth quality and strength. It's not a one size fits all approach. Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause and lifestyle factors such as a plant based diet so you get support that's actually right for you. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. Just order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription you can save up to 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. So let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code WOO. That's nutrafol.com spelled N U T R A F O L.com promo code WOO.

[Jessica Gross]

This episode is brought to you by

[Rachel Dratch]

Peloton Break through the busiest time of

[Jessica Gross]

year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq, with real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross training Tread [e-mail].

[Rachel Dratch]

So yeah, so you, you're saying you grew up in Irvington?

[Jessica Gross]

I grew up in Irvington, which is a suburb of New York City in Westchester County. I was joking that I am just a Jewish American princess from Westchester. That is who I am, very proudly. But in my hometown, which is tiny, I mean when I lived in it, I think more people live there now. But when I grew up in IRVINGTON, I think 6,000 people lived there, 7,000. It's small. And one of the residents of my hometown was Reverend Moon, who was the head of the Unification Church. It was offensive to them, but they are known in popular culture as Moonies.

[Rachel Dratch]

Yes, this is very 70s, right? Like I remember this and they did the group marriages.

[Jessica Gross]

Group marriages, that's right. So in my hometown, at the public school that I went to, I would say about 5 to 10% of every grade was kids who belonged to the Unification Church. Wow. And some of them lived in sort of regular family units, and some of them lived in, like, dorms, basically. Like, their parents weren't with them.

[Irene Bremes]

This is crazy.

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah. It was a whole thing.

[Rachel Dratch]

This is the next article, by the way, but go ahead, go ahead.

[Jessica Gross]

I wrote about it for New York magazine. A short thing when he died about. Just, like. So there were all of these sort of unexplained things. Like, his daughters were, like, on my soccer team. Like, it's so weird being like, the guru's daughters are on my AYSO team. Like, wow, that's crazy.

[Irene Bremes]

What were they like? I need to know.

[Jessica Gross]

Sweet. They were sweet, normal, you know? Like, I was very close with a girl who was a member of the church, and there was, like, so much stuff that she wasn't allowed to do. Like, she wasn't allowed to, like, go to dances. And there's a book called in the Shadow of the Moons, which was written by an older church member. So probably she's in her 50s or 60s now, but she was married off to one of Reverend Moon's sons when she was a teenager. So she was taken out of school. Yeah. It's wild, but I feel like that started my lifelong interest in what other people believed and had all these questions about how they were raised. And why is she having this totally different experience and a sort of openness to. Because I think I interviewed one of my classmates who sort of wasn't really part of the church anymore, but had grown up in it, and he was like, yeah, it was, like, pretty normal for a lot of us. It wasn't, like, freak stuff. Like, I think a lot of people think that it was, like, this weird, horrible experience. But, like, he also was one of the ones who was raised with his family. He wasn't raised sort of, like, separately. It's a whole thing. Like, yes, books can and have been written about this church. But I think that was sort of the spark of my interest in alternative beliefs and things outside the mainstream.

[Rachel Dratch]

Wait, so you said some kids living in dorms, they went to your school, too?

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah. Whoa.

[Rachel Dratch]

So they didn't have, like, parents around.

[Jessica Gross]

They lived in, like, a communal setting, and they had guardians, but their parents were, like, on missions, like, elsewhere, sort of trying to proselytize outside the US and it was just like, the adults didn't talk about it. It wasn't like I talked. I asked my parents about it. It was sort of like, I think the silence around it and the sort of unspoken, like, this is different from us, but like, nobody wants to talk about it because nobody wants to call it a cult, because that's pejorative. You know what it was, Right?

[Irene Bremes]

Right.

[Jessica Gross]

Nobody wanted to explain to kids what was going on with our friends. Cause we were friends. You know, everybody was friends. It was a tiny. Like my graduating class from my public school. I think I had 82 kids. My brother's year was like 79 kids. Like, it's small. You know, everybody. You know all these kids really well. So I think that sort of vacuum of explanation and information.

[Irene Bremes]

Now these kids, were they like arranged marriages? Like, how did that work in terms of the internal.

[Jessica Gross]

So I graduated from college in the year 2000. I think by the time I graduated, the religion was sort of losing its grasp. So I feel like I don't know what happened to them. I have no idea. I've looked on LinkedIn for some. Like, I've googled deep Googled many of them. And I don't know if they were still doing the arranged marriage. I mean, it's sort of a core tenet of the religion, at least in the 70s and 80s. So, like, I can only assume that at least a few of them did. But I don't know.

[Rachel Dratch]

And for anyone that doesn't know, what I remember is they would do these giant arranged marriages, like in stadiums, right?

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah. So Madison Square Garden was the biggest one. And basically the head of the religion, who was Reverend Moon, he would pair people off. So he would say, you and you, you're getting married. And so it was all decided by the church leaders. And the idea was like, if you had this sort of sanctified marriage, you would ascend to heaven. Again, fact check me. I'm pretty sure that is. This is now reporting. I did like 15 years ago, but I'm pretty sure that that was the promise.

[Irene Bremes]

At what age can. The minimum age minimum that somebody could be.

[Jessica Gross]

Well, so if you read this book, in the Shadow of the Moons. So the author is Nam Sook Hon. She was taken out of school and married to one of his sons. This was in the 80s when she was like 16. So again, I don't think that they agreed with what she published in this book. I think they probably disputed a lot of what was published in this book. And I talked to teachers and guidance counselors from my high school, and they said that the kids that would happen, that, you know, teenagers would be in class one day and then have disappeared. Like they would just be gone. And the School wouldn't have known, didn't know what had happened to them. So, you know, again, would have to go do the sort of deep reporting that I had done, you know, 10 to 15 years ago. But yeah, that was sort of the beginning of my interest in all of this.

[Rachel Dratch]

I love a cult doc.

[Jessica Gross]

I know. Yeah, me too. I can't believe there hasn't been one about the moons.

[Rachel Dratch]

I'm not calling them a cult. I don't know what we call them, but I know, I mean, it's so hard for me to focus these days and have an attention span, but a cult doc will always hold my attention.

[Jessica Gross]

Well, what's also fascinating about them is they were really smart and they had a lot of businesses and so for a while they were like importing all of the sushi grade fish into the United States.

[Rachel Dratch]

Wow.

[Jessica Gross]

So they had a way to sort of perpetuate their wealth and perpetuate the organization without necessarily, without gaining more adherence because I don't think that they were ever like a huge going concern in anywhere. But they were, you know, for a while in the, I think 70s and 80s, a very, a very big deal.

[Rachel Dratch]

I really like to cook when I have the time.

I like flipping through recipes, hand picking ingredients from my local farmer's market. Yeah, all that. I even find it kind of relaxing. But that's when I have the time because I don't always have the time

to manifest that vision.

And that's when I use Tovala. This podcast is sponsored by Tovala. Tovala is a smart meal delivery service, fresh meals and a smart oven that, wait a minute, does the cooking for you.

Yes, it's true.

And woowoo listeners can get a Tovala smart oven for just $49 plus free shipping. When you order meals six or more times, just go to tovala.com woo and use my code. Woo. Tovala makes it so easy. You just scan the meal's QR code. It's very much like the future.

You pop it in the.

It cooks everything perfectly. And while I might let mealtime slide for myself, sometimes I do have a teen that I need to feed. And Tabala makes that extra easy. He likes meat dishes, which I'm not that much of a fan of, even less a fan of cooking them. Just yesterday he had filet mignon and creamy peppercorn sauce with buttery roasted root vegetables. Was it a fine restaurant?

No, it was Tovala.

But it tasted like a fine restaurant. Also, as a growing boy, he often has his after School dinner and his later in the evening dinner. And I love having at least one of those dinners. Be a Tovala meal. Tovala Smart Oven isn't just for their meals. You can use the oven to scan

store bought groceries like Eggo Waffles, Pillsbury

Cinnamon rolls and Amy's frozen meals to name just a few. It knows how to cook them too. And for a limited time, because you're a woo Woo listener, you can get a Tovala Smart oven for just $49 plus free shipping. When you order meals six or more times, just go to tovala.com woo and use my code woo. That's a $49 Tovala smart oven. When you head to Tovala do and use promo code woo one last time. That's T-O-V-A-L-A.com and make sure you use my promo code Woo. Remember, with Tovala dinner is taken care of. You know you need fiber for a healthy gut, but do you actually know how to get it? Quaker's been serving UP fiber since 1877 with over 100 great tasting, good source of fiber options to choose from. Whether you want like old fashioned oats, instant oatmeal granola or oatmeal squares. Quaker makes it delicious. M so good. Get your fiber with Quaker Shop Quaker's good source of fiber products at a store near you.

Well, Jess,

[Irene Bremes]

I know what she's thinking.

[Rachel Dratch]

We've covered the, the Moonies and all manner of near death. Well, not all manner. We just scratched the surface of near death.

[Jessica Gross]

I mean you could have 15 episodes about near death experiences and after death communication. There's so much again. And like, I think what's great about it is that you don't have to believe in it to find it really interesting and valuable and telling about people and their experiences of life.

[Rachel Dratch]

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

And that I could have gone to 10 more conferences with these, but.

[Rachel Dratch]

So after you got back, you didn't feel like a shift or anything? Said Rachel, looking for her angle. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm not trying to force myself.

[Jessica Gross]

I'm kind of disappointed in myself. Cause I was kind of hoping that I would come away with it with some like, spiritual revelation. But my, my skeptical, like reporter mind just like can't. But in a way, I wonder if I would be a happier person because it's like I can't let it in. It's like I almost feel like the gate drops at some point where I'm just like no.

[Irene Bremes]

Right.

[Jessica Gross]

And like, I think in some ways that's a good instinct because you don't want to be taken in by like every story that you hear. And you have to like, you know, the joke about reporters is like, even if your mother says she loves you, get a second source. Right. It's like we're trained to really like, question. Yeah. And I think that that's good for me to do. But at the same time, like, that's. There's no release from that. Right. So I just. There was, I did have this visual in my head. It was like every time my mind would start wandering down the path, it would just be like, nah. Like, you know, in a medieval castle when like the gates, the gates just drop.

[Irene Bremes]

I saw that same gate just now, as you would describe it.

[Rachel Dratch]

Interesting, because I wonder, to get all woo woo here, if your exercise for yourself is to like, what happens if I don't drop the gate? Where does my mind go? Where does my spirit go? If I actively, I actively.

[Jessica Gross]

I think it holds me back in a lot of things. Not just spiritually. It's like it. I can be like. One of my New Year's resolutions was actually to be less critical of myself and others and the world. And so I feel like it is a thing that holds me. It is a strength and a weakness. Right. Like, it makes me good at my job, but then also holds me back from things.

[Irene Bremes]

Right.

[Rachel Dratch]

Irene and I are not held by any journalistic integrity.

[Jessica Gross]

Not at all.

[Rachel Dratch]

And we'll believe it all, hook, line and sinker.

Okay.

[Irene Bremes]

Just hook us and wait.

[Rachel Dratch]

Can I tell you a little story though, about. So I did this thing called the Hoffman Institute, which that's a whole other episode that we've never done. But anyway, they did this thing. It was sort of like self exploration, whatever, but they did this thing. And I don't meditate this like they did a kind of guided journey. Right. And it's not my usual thing at all. And it's like, probably took an hour or something, which felt like an eternity. And they're guiding you through and like you're picturing yourself like walking through the woods and like it's a very long thing. But anyway, then they say, like, you come upon your spirit guide now. Okay. And I had no idea what, how to picture my spirit guide. But anyway, I just ended up just picturing this. Like I'm abbreviating the story, but I ended up picturing this giant blue, kind of glowing dot. I was kind of joking afterwards with the other people there, like I was just picturing a dot. But then years later, I went to this. Now I sound like I'm doing all the things, but I went to this. This channeler person, and she said. She said, you're guided by the spirit of the blue dot.

[Jessica Gross]

Wow.

[Rachel Dratch]

Like, isn't that weird?

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah.

[Rachel Dratch]

That she said that years later, I'd never talked about it. And she said, you're guided by the spirit of blue dot. All this is just to say that I. I opened the gate. I know I never, like, figured out what the blue dot meant, if the blue dots hovering behind me right now or anything, but I kind of like trying to get out of the comfort zone.

[Irene Bremes]

That's right. Well, Jess, you did good just by opening up about your dream. You know what I mean? So baby steps for you because, like, that you allowed yourself to be open and take in other memories. It was sort of like a life review of your friendship with this woman. So in many ways, you know, you were, you know, that kind of permeated your gate. The gate was breachable.

[Jessica Gross]

I love that reframing. That's really lovely. Thank you for giving that to me. Oh, my gosh.

[Irene Bremes]

Of course. Yeah.

[Rachel Dratch]

Well, did you see that? We do a little pendulum reading. You might not have seen that part of things.

[Jessica Gross]

I did. I'm excited. I'm here for it.

[Irene Bremes]

There goes your journalistic career.

[Rachel Dratch]

Okay.

I know, I know.

[Jessica Gross]

Oh, sweetie.

[Rachel Dratch]

And now I feel like saying, like, Jess, we're really not crazy. We just like talking about this stuff.

[Jessica Gross]

No, I actually. So one of my good friends believes everything that you've discussed here. She loves it. She loves every one of it. And I actually had her read the piece before it ran. And I was joking that she was my spiritual sensitivity reader, because I was like, is this, like, do you feel like I got this right? Do you feel like I was, you know, open to. And I really. So I welcome the experience. If even inside I'm, like, dying. Wow.

[Rachel Dratch]

Well, now, wait, before we do the pangee, what are you working on now? Like, what's your next? Like, do you. How does the life of the New York Times journalist work? Like, do you. Are you already on to the next. Like, what's next?

[Jessica Gross]

Oh, my gosh. I have to write constantly, so, I mean, I have a very particular job, so I'm an opinion. And I have scheduled piece running basically every Wednesday and Saturday. Like, I have to write twice a week about, you know, what's going on in the act, in the world. Like, not the, you know, not the spiritual world, the actual world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm just constantly writing. I mean, my story running. I don't know when this is going to run, but like, my story tomorrow is about. Did you know that 40% of women ages 15 to 44 said they would leave the country permanently if given the opportunity?

[Irene Bremes]

Which is like, they need to hike up that number. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Okay, what about us?

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah, exactly. So I talked to some people who are considering leaving the country and the frame that I talked to them about was gun violence. Because I'm again, a very sort of rationalistic, numbers, cold minded person about some things. And I'm like, I can think and be comforted by the idea that there's an infinitesimal chance that my kids are gonna die in a school shooting today when they leave the house. Right. Like, there's more of a chance they're gonna get hit by a car when they cross the street. And so I can have to read the news. Cause it's my stupid job, which, like, some days I'm just like, I don't wanna know any of this.

[Rachel Dratch]

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

So it's like I have to be aware of all these things that are happening constantly and it does wear on you. And so I could always sort of just be like, okay. I am comforted by the statistics that I know that it is very, very unlikely that this will happen to me. Them. But then the shooting at Brown University, I went to Brown and so it just felt like that, that it just felt like the circle was drawing in closer. And so I had started reporting it earlier this week. And then that poor woman in Minnesota was murdered. And so it's talking to women who are thinking about leaving the country because of gun violence specifically.

[Rachel Dratch]

Mm.

[Jessica Gross]

Wow, What a cheerful topic. I'm sorry. No, but I mean, this is on

[Rachel Dratch]

all of our minds. Like, I always, like, as a comedy person, I don't like, post about this stuff, but it's like on my mind like 24 7. So it's like, it's not like you're, you know, giving us feelings we don't already have going on.

[Jessica Gross]

I know, it's just, it's like, it's funny. I, like, my friends will be like, I'm so sorry I haven't been reading you. I've been avoiding the news and I'm like, there are many days I regret this career choice. Like, I don't want to read the news. It's my job. Like, it's.

[Irene Bremes]

Yeah, I feel you. It's a lot. Rachel here is my Therapist slash dear friend slash. My sensitivity reader right there.

[Rachel Dratch]

Well, same.

[Irene Bremes]

That guy couldn't get through any of it without her, you know, because we need that.

[Rachel Dratch]

We're all relying on our buddies.

[Irene Bremes]

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

Well, a more fun thing that I'm thinking about, but I have it. This is, like, hot off the presses. I haven't told anyone about this, but I'm like, again, I'm like, a columnist. I have to write about it. Trends. So you know how young people aren't having sex anymore? Yes.

[Irene Bremes]

Older people aren't having sex either, by the way.

[Rachel Dratch]

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

Okay. So a friend of mine who is a college professor was telling me that some of the young women she teaches in a sort of, like, humanities class were telling her that, like, they don't want to have sex because their beauty routines at night are so elaborate. It's like they've already put all this stuff on their face, and they've, like, taped their mouths shut. And I'm like, I don't even know what's that's for. And it's like, they're so fixated on the artifice and they're so afraid to, like, look unattractive that it's, like, desexualizing them and making them like, oh. It's like, I don't. Who is this even for? Like, I'm too exhausted to actually engage.

[Rachel Dratch]

Wow.

[Jessica Gross]

So this is an idea I'm just, like, obsessed with. I'm just like, this is sad for you guys, and you should not be doing this anymore. So that's another.

[Rachel Dratch]

But it definitely sounds like a more. I mean, I know not, like. Not like fun fun, but more like interesting fun. Like, light. I know it's like talking about a big societal trend, but it sounds interesting and a little lighter.

[Irene Bremes]

It's a nice detour from reality.

[Jessica Gross]

Yes. A detour. And I'm also just like, I want to free the young women.

[Rachel Dratch]

Yes.

[Jessica Gross]

Like, I want. I want to free them from the tyranny of taping their mouths shut for beauty. Like, why are you doing that? Don't do that. I'm like, that's so hard.

[Rachel Dratch]

Quick sidebar that I was gonna ask you at the beginning. I forgot to. But how did you get into being a writer? Like, is that something you wanted to do when you were really little, or did it come about later?

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah, I always wanted to be a writer. Thank God I have succeeded in my career because I have no other talents. It just would be really curtains for me. So, yeah, I mean, I went to. I was an English major, which everyone makes fun of. But it was, you know, the only thing I really loved. I always read. I just read endlessly as a kid and loved to write. And so went to college knowing that it's what I really wanted to do. Moved to New York straight out of undergrad. And, you know, my first job out of undergrad was at Spin magazine, so I thought I would be more of a culture critic or a music critic. And then I realized pretty quickly that when you start doing that for a living, it makes you hate music. Like, it's.

[Irene Bremes]

It becomes a job.

[Rachel Dratch]

Yeah.

[Jessica Gross]

Yeah. So I was like, okay, I want a. And it also is so confining if you're just doing like one thing. And I've always been kind of a generalist and had tons of interests and fascinations, and so, yeah, I just. That's where it started. But I never wanted to do anything else. And I'm very grateful every day to have a good job doing what I want to do. Yeah.

[Rachel Dratch]

All right, well, it's time for your pendulum reading, Jess.

[Jessica Gross]

So.

[Rachel Dratch]

So you think of your question and then you're gonna reveal it after we give you your answer. Yes or no question. And we usually tell people, don't ask anything that's gonna really bum you out if it gives the wrong answer that you don't want. But who knows? It's just a pendulum, so feel free to go for it. But anyway.

Okay.

Are you thinking of your question?

[Jessica Gross]

Okay.

[Rachel Dratch]

Okay. You ready?

[Jessica Gross]

It's so low stance.

[Rachel Dratch]

Okay. Okay, Here we go. That's okay. Okay. So I got a yes.

[Irene Bremes]

I got a yes.

[Rachel Dratch]

What was your question, Jess?

[Jessica Gross]

Will the Clippers win tonight?

[Rachel Dratch]

Oh, okay.

This is quantifiable. Yes.

[Irene Bremes]

Yes.

[Rachel Dratch]

So tonight, now, I don't know when this is going to air, but today that we're taping, this is. What day is it? January 9th. So Penji is going to get tested on if the Clippers win tonight. Okay.

[Jessica Gross]

Good fans want to know because I'm going to the Clippers versus Nets tonight and my brother in law works for the Clippers. So shout out to Judd for getting us those tickets. And I was just like, what is the nearest term thing? Oh, that's good.

[Rachel Dratch]

That's good. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Well, when I see if the Clippers win, I'll think of you.

[Irene Bremes]

That's right.

[Rachel Dratch]

Jess, thank you so much for coming on and telling us all about your experience at the conference for the International association of Near Death Studies. I think, Irene, we might have to go and check it out next time they meet.

[Irene Bremes]

Yes, I would love to.

[Rachel Dratch]

Thanks.

[Jessica Gross]

So much for having me.

[Rachel Dratch]

Thank you so much.

[Irene Bremes]

Thank you so much. Jess. This has been amazing and your article was sensational. It really was amazing.

[Jessica Gross]

Thank you.

[Rachel Dratch]

And you can find me on Instagram at Ray Dratch. That's R A e Dratch. And you can find Irene at IreneBremis. That's B R E M I S Bremis. And thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me on this journey

into the world of Woo Woo.

Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch is a Q Code production executive produced by David

Henning and Steve Wilson produced by Alexa

Gabriel Ramirez, edited by Will Tendee.