C (3:01)

Well, I have a book out that's an illustrated book called what Is a Witch? And that was illustrated by Tin Can Forrest. And then I'm the co. Editor and co author of this really thick, juicy book from Taschen called Witchcraft. And that's with their Library of Esoterica series. So it's edited by Jessica Hunley. And you would both love it. There's a book on tarot, a book on astrology and so on. But I just edited the witchcraft book with Jessica.

A (3:31)

Oh, my gosh.

D (3:31)

Okay.

A (3:32)

Well, I have so many questions, but of course. And Irene does, too. Irene will be taking all questions. Irene. But what first comes to mind when I hear that you're a witch is I remember. And you mentioned this, too, like when we're growing up and we're like. I mean, I was an avid reader back in the day. Sadly, it's kind of fallen off. But I. You know, in sixth grade, fifth grade, we used to read all those witchy books, you know, I mean, novels. I read that, you know, and it was just very fascinating. I mean, I can't remember the. There was one called, of course. This title sticks in my head. The Active Enzyme Lemon Freshen Junior High School Witch. What? Does anyone remember that book? No, I don't remember the actual story, but it's a fantastic and very 70s title. You know what I mean?

D (4:20)

Wow.

A (4:20)

But anyways, I need to track this down.

C (4:22)

Rachel.

A (4:23)

The Active Enzyme Lemon Fresh in Junior High School, which that title's gonna suck you in. But I also remember, like, the Lois Duncan books, Summer of Fear and Down a Dark Hall. Does anyone remember those books? Did you read those, Pam?

C (4:35)

I did. I didn't, but I do remember them.

A (4:38)

Okay. I think you would enjoy them even as an adult, even though I've just met you. Okay. But anyway, I guess I'm wondering, and I think you mentioned this a little. Were you, like a witchy girl from early on? And how. You know, what was your intro into taking this path?

C (4:55)

Yeah. So I grew up in the exotic wilds of suburban New Jersey. I was born in 1981. And that's significant because this was sort of like a boom of witchcraft and occult books, I think, you know, just a little prior to when I was born. So in the 70s, we started seeing more paperback books of, like, spellbooks and fiction books about witches for sure. And so it actually was pretty accessible for me when I was growing up to track down books on, you know, candle magic and tarot decks and things like that. And I was just super attracted to it. You know, I often say that I was hanging out on the low end of the Dewey decimal system. So all the books about, like, Bigfoot, UFOs, witches, dreams, you know what I'm saying? Like, that was my jam. Love that. And I was also a really imaginative, creative kid. I love to draw and perform and write and all of that. And I bring that up because I actually think creativity and magic write are pretty much the same thing, which is what Magic Maker is about. But anyhow, my interests evolved, and when I became a teenager, I started experimenting with spell books. And this was now in the 90s. And if you'll remember, in the 90s, there was suddenly this, like, proliferation of witchy movies like the Craft and shows like Charmed and Buffy. So it was in the air. But at the time, that stuff felt a little dark for me. So I experimen with witchiness and with casting spells. But it really evolved more deeply once I got into my 20s and started studying the history of magic and realizing that, look, if any of us go back in our ancestral line, we are related to people who practice some kind of magic, who believed nature is enchanted, who did some kind of divination, some kind of healing. They talked to the dead. This actually isn't weird. And so I just started exploring that and deepening my relationship to it as I got older, and it turned into lots of different projects.

D (7:11)

I love what you just said. You know, you hit on something that is infringed, and it's very mainstream. When you go back, culturally speaking, even as a Greek person, there is definitely things that could be, you know, mistakenly, 20 years ago referred to as witchcraft. And it could be as simplistic as just healing or honoring somebody who's passed or having these premonitions about somebody who's passed on. You know, it's just being in touch with your body and being in touch with the esoteric and what's happening.

C (7:40)

Yeah. And there's. There's just so much to the world that it transcends what we can see with our naked eye. Right there. There are, I believe, all kinds of invisible forces that we don't fully understand, and yet we can be in relationship with. And identifying as a witch, as I started to do in my 20s, just felt incredibly empowering. You know, I was raised Jewish. It was very flexi Jew. Like, we didn't keep kosher or anything. You too, Rachel?

D (8:12)

Yeah.

A (8:12)

Yeah, Yeah.

C (8:13)

I never knew that. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not like I've, you know, turned in my Judaism card or something like. But being a practicing pagan and being a witch is something that's been incredibly empowering for me. And you know, some statistics say it's one of the fastest growing spiritual practices right now too. And I think people are attracted to witchcraft because it does honor the body, it honors nature. It believes that the feminine and the non binary is as sacred as the masculine. So it's a really great alternative to a lot of these hierarchical patriarchal systems of religion, spirituality and power. And so there are a lot of different reasons why I identify as a witch now and why many other people do. And it's just been incredibly meaningful, especially

A (9:07)

right now, just hearing you say that and like resonating so hard because I mean, obviously patriarchy is leading us directly into the shitter right now. And like to hear anyone even talk about honoring the feminine, honoring nature, honoring intuition and connection, connection, it's actually so important right now. It's not some like thing to be like uh huh, woo, woo, whatever. It's actually like could save us all. I mean I firmly believe that right now. So I'm just so excited to be talking to you about this.

D (9:49)

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C (9:51)

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A (9:58)

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C (10:00)

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A (10:06)

I was wondering in terms of your pursuit of witchcraft and like, like I said, you're, you're very smart. No, I mean obviously you've done a lot of work on history and cultural study and all this. I was just wondering, is this something you actually studied in college, like as an academic form in addition to practicing?

C (10:28)

Sort of. So I went to NYU and at the time they didn't have like a distinct path of study in Western esotericism or you know, there, there are new programs, if not at nyu, then certainly other universities have since created these paths of, you know, studying mysticism and esoterica and things. But that just didn't exist when I was there. So I sort of cobbled together my own syllabus, if you will. I was an anthropology major and then real dork over here. I triple minored in religious studies, art history and creative writing. And so I just kind of. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

D (11:11)

That makes so much sense that it led you to your path.

A (11:14)

Yeah. And like that's, yeah, reading your like reading Magic Maker, like all those elements are in there too. So.

C (11:21)

Yeah, yeah. And, and at the same time I was Practicing witchcraft privately. But it wasn't until after college when I was in the working world. I had a corporate day job and I had this blog called Phantasma File where I was really celebrating magic and culture and things. And that led to a whole bunch of different projects that eventually led me to studying with a green witch named Robin Rose Bennett. She's amazing. You would both love her. A green witch? Yeah, she. She studies herbalism and, you know, natural healing and the spirits of nature and things. And that just gave me a lot more confidence to identify first, you know, privately, but then publicly as a witch. And then, you know, that turned into all different kinds of projects. And when I had my corporate day job, you know, I was working at Getty Images. I imagine you're both familiar with that company.

D (12:25)

Yeah.

C (12:25)

And I was working on projects around, you know, images of women and empowerment and things. And yet, as much as it was a. It was a good day job, but I was feeling really called to deepen my relationship with witchcraft and, and to teach and write and to really deepen my own practice. And so, you know, there are many other steps to the story. But in short, eventually I left Getty Images and became a full time witch writer, ritualist, teacher, all the things that I'm doing now. Podcaster. So, yeah, amazing.

A (13:04)

I have a couple questions. One is. Cause I want to get to the whole, like, green, which I'm sure Irene has a lot of questions about that and also just practicing. But before we go there, I just wanted to touch on. I loved how you described magic in your book and like, why people are against it. I thought that was really interesting. And you mentioned two different sort of schools of thought that are anti magic. And your explanation was just so cool. Like, I mean, Irene and I joke all the time when we're saying, like, yeah, we do this podcast, like, we're not crazy, but like, you know, there's a lot of sort of derogatory implication. Not that we've ever received that, but I think it's ours. Self disclaimers. You sort of get to the root of, you know, why people poo poo. Woo woo. So if you could talk about that a little and like, what is magic? And then we could get to the, you know, actual what are spells and all that stuff. Practicing.

C (13:58)

Yeah. Yeah. So you're touching on something that is so important to me and it is the topic of the way in which magic is stigmatized. And I'm fond of saying, like, when it comes to the public relationship to magic, usually it is One of two things. It is either trivialized or sensationalized. So on the one hand, you have people who are completely skeptical of it, and they're like, don't you believe in science? You know, like, haven't you heard of technology? And it's like, yes, like, big fan of vaccines over here. You know, use my iPhone. Don't necessarily love it. But of course, of course, I engage with science all the time. And yet, you know, the, the project of making people feel that magic is foolish or silly is actually very capitalist. It's very colonialist, and it's very patriarchal. What I mean by that is, you know, as I said earlier, because people have engaged with some form of magic for tens of thousands of years, and it's really been only within the last, I'll be generous and say a thousand years, but really the last, like five or six hundred years that there has been this push towards, you know, getting people to think that magic is stupid or trivial. And the reason for, for that is because when people believe in magic, they are less easy to control. Exactly. Easy to extract labor out of them. You know, it's very, again, that word capitalist, which, which I think discourages people from wanting to take magic seriously. So that's on the one hand. And then on the other hand, you have people who have sensationalized magic who say that people who practice magic are doing something sinful, they're practicing the dark arts. You know, it's diabolical or satanic even. And that comes primarily from Christianity.

D (16:09)

Yes. The Catholic Church being the biggest form of witchcraft. Let's just call it what it is. Okay, Right.

C (16:16)

But there are several other major religions that suppress, oppress, any kind of spiritual practice that doesn't directly follow a pretty narrow set of dogma. And so, you know, I. There are a lot of people who come to me and they're attracted to witchcraft or they're attracted to paganism broadly, and they feel kind of nervous about it because they've been taught that this is scary, sinful stuff. And I have to tell them, first of all, there's nothing inherently dark or sinful about this. And second of all, you don't have to throw away your religion of origin if you don't want to. Like I sometimes say I'm Jewish. Like, it really doesn't matter. It is supplementary or complimentary to any other religion. Or if you don't have one, that's fine too.

A (17:08)

Also, again, what I'm hearing you say, both of these are. They're very like, anti feminine, anti women, like, both of these takes. It's like, oh, you're trying to do a natural healing thing, like, you flighty chick. You know, I don't know. It just seems like it's very basic, like, maintaining patriarchy, especially with the systems set up in the more dogmatic branches of religion, which, like, the men have to maintain power to stay and. Yeah, no, if you want to say

D (17:41)

that 100%, because it's like, it's just systemic misogyny, and women have clearer intuition. We've talked about this in the past. And they don't want women tapping into that visceral power that we have. And it's a form of controlling women, period, Full stop. God damn it. That's what it fucking is. And also, men have always been threatened with women's ability to procreate. That is something that no man can do. So it is definitely all stemmed from the word hysteria making women hysterical, making them not credible witnesses in the past, even biblically speaking, just trying to take all powers of intuition from women away.

C (18:24)

You said it. You said it.

D (18:26)

I mean, it's crazy. I love your book, and I love what you're doing, and I. You know what I love? You know what I really love about what you're doing? The fact that you dispel spilling all the things that you're talking about and bringing in a very gravitational pull of reality that ties into very much what's going on today. It's amazing. And has been going on, and history repeats itself, as we know.

C (18:47)

Exactly. And actually, my first book, Waking the Witch, is all about this, and it really takes the archetype of the witch, and it talks about how it went from this villainized figure for thousands of years to being now reclaimed and reframed as a feminist icon. And how did that happen? And so I'm really, really interested also in just, like, the character of the witch, whether we're talking about fictionalized figures or figures like me who identify as a witch in real life.

A (19:22)

Oh, my gosh. I feel like we could do, like, five episodes with you, because I have so many questions.

B (19:25)

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A (19:31)

I'll admit it.

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A (20:02)

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A (21:27)

Irene and I went to Salem. It was our only little field trip we did. And I thought it was fascinating because when you grow up learning about Salem, you actually think some of these people were witches. I mean, I don't know how I held this belief for so long instead of just that it was about persecuting people on the fringes or people like this hysteria. I mean like what's happening now quite frankly. But anyway, just about like using the term of witch as someone that's anti everything, anti establishment and crazy and all

D (22:00)

that stuff, going against the status quo. And you know, once you go against the status quo, you are vilified and you need to be taken down. And women were always targets because we possess an intuition that is frightful to the patriarchy we are. We're very connected to our bodies. That's why we're the ones procreating. Of course, I don't have Any children. But that's why Rachel is procreating or procreated.

C (22:24)

Rachel's holding it down for both of us.

D (22:27)

She's holding it down for both of us. Thanks, sweetie. Thank you, sweetie. My cousin, actually is a witch. She studied under Lori Cabot. She has a shop at Salem. It recently closed down, which is very sad. It's called New England Magic, and it was one of the oldest shops in Salem. And I remember when I went to her house, which I haven't been in a while, she literally had her entire house set up with an altar. And I'm not kidding, she actually had a sword and some dag. It was just very crazy. But it was facing certain directions and, like, east and then west. Do you have anything to add to that? I never really fully. I. I'm guessing it's like feng shui, in a sense.

C (23:09)

Well, Rachel will know.

A (23:11)

This is a good segue into the spell you did.

C (23:14)

Yes.

D (23:14)

I don't know.

A (23:15)

If you call it a spell. Why don't you talk us through? Because then we can get to the whole, like, actual practicing, like, maybe talk us through a little bit of the ritual that you did at the theater.

C (23:25)

Sure, sure. So one of the most common spells that you might encounter when it comes to witchcraft is casting a magic circle. And this is how witches set spell sacred space. And there are different methods that you can do it. Some people call it five directions style. So that'll be air in the east, fire in the south, water in the west, earth in the north, and spirit in the center. I was actually taught to do it seven direction style. So it's those four elements, and then below, which is, you know, the direction of the underworld and the ancestors. And then above, which is the direction of the celestial and certain deities. And, you know, the sun, the moon, the stars, angels, if you believe in them. I like to remind people the word angel originally is derived from the word messenger. So it can just be any kind of divine messenger, and then, yes, the center. And so that little spell that magic circle casting is how witches often begin any spell or any ritual. And so you're really setting sacred space, and you're forming kind of an energetic container of safety. You know, you're keeping negative energy out, and then you're inviting in really concentrated, potent power. And I love beginning ceremonies with circle casting because certainly it, like, shifts your energy. It gets you ready to conjure whatever it is you're going to conjure. And also it gets your mindset right. You're suddenly in this liminal transcendent more receptive frame of mind. And that's why I actually, in my book, Magic Maker, recommend casting a circle before you sit down and write. Or if you are about to perform, you can cast circle. And so that is how I started the ritual that I did with Rachel and the other Rocky Horror folks. It's Studio 54 and Rachel. I mean, you tell me, did it feel like something shifted when we did that?

A (25:31)

Yeah, I mean, I was just really intrigued by it all. It's almost like you said, it's not that different from, you know, any other form of prayer or something or, you know, that could be across any religion or practice or meditation, you know, so it's almost just like taking the breath to pause from. And now we have our phones all the time, so I need to pause off of that, of course. But just even just like, what's happening in my body and my thoughts is something I don't do very often. A moment of stillness and with community, too. So that's something that I don't do very often. And it was. It was great to just sort of like, whatever, shake the Etch A Sketch, and then you have your clean slate kind of thing.

C (26:17)

I love that so much, the energetic Etch A Sketch. And so, yeah, so for our ritual, you know, we started with that circle casting. And then there were a lot of different components to it. I mean, when I was talking to Sam Pinkleton, the amazing director of Rocky Horror, we actually had several sessions where we prepared for the ritual and we talked about what intentions he wanted to put into it and, you know, all these different threads he wanted me to weave together. And it was really important to him that we honored the physical and spiritual space of Studio 54, because this is a legendary space with a lot of energy. And as Sam said to me, he's like, there are a lot of good ghosts there. We don't want to banish them all. We want to welcome in the good ghosts. But, yeah, if there's some, you know, negative energies or some lingering bad ghosts, maybe we want to shoo them away, too. So that was certainly an element that we did in the ritual. We invited in people's personal ancestors. And these can be biological ancestors, like, you know, grandparents, great grandparents. But I also like to encourage people to invite in spiritual ancestors. You know, anybody that feels like they chose you or you chose them. And that could be mentors who have crossed over friends. I often call in David Bowie and Jim Henson and, you know, Remedios Varro and artists who really inspire me. And I want to invite in their guidance and their protection. So that was an element. We banished demons. And that was important to me because I know for myself, as a writer, an artist, a performer, I contend with all kinds of demons, of self doubt and insecurity and perfectionism. And. And so I wanted to try and help the performers and the crew banish some of those demons. So we did some of that. And then we did an exercise where we blessed these stones because I wanted everyone in the cast and crew to feel like they were infusing their own words of intention into the production. And so that was a lovely ritual where we each put in a word of magic into these stones and put them in the center of the circle and. And then we charged it up with a tone. And that was so powerful. That was probably my favorite part. Oh, I forgot. We also invoked Dionysus, of course, the God of theater and ecstasy and disinhibition. And that was really important, too, because I think Rocky Horror is such a Dionysian show.

A (29:01)

Yes, for sure.

D (29:02)

I love that you said, also very important that you banished the demons of doubt. Like, people don't know that these are actually things that, like, they really get into your head. I really believe that, you know, and they're really demons that make you doubt

A (29:18)

yourself, you know, and they can stop all creativity. Like, if you.

D (29:21)

Exactly.

A (29:22)

If you doubt yourself. I speak this from experience, as I'm sure anyone who tried to create anything. But, like, if you let the voices who just, like, say, like, oh, this isn't going to be good, or, well, I don't know where to start, then you just don't even start at all, you know, so that's right.

D (29:36)

Oh, my gosh, yes, sweetie, yes.

C (29:39)

That's it. And there's actually a section in my book, Magic Maker, that's all about naming and banishing creative demons. And look, I'm imagining some of your listeners thinking, like, does she really believe in demons? Is this literal or is this metaphorical? And my answer is it really doesn't matter, because whatever it is to your point, Rachel, it stops you. It makes you feel afraid. It gets in your way. And so anything we can do to thwart those demons is really, really effective. And look, for me, I think anthropomorphizing these energies is really helpful. Giving them a name and having a relationship with them. If that makes you feel stupid or you don't like it, okay, it's not for you, and that's just fine.

D (30:28)

Yeah, but that makes sense. That makes sense.

A (30:30)

I was going to Say in the ritual. It's funny, the things I remember the most are the things where we turn to each direction and the things where we redid the stones. And I realized that's cause it was connected to an action, connected to a physical thing. And that's like you had to do something with your body. Even it was as small as putting a stone into a communal little pot. Like that's what stuck with me. Cause I had to put the thought into an action which. I don't know. I'm processing this as I say it. I don't. You tell me, Pam, what this is about.

C (31:01)

I mean, I often say that witchcraft is an embodied practice because yes, absolutely, you can use the power of your mind and your imagination to shift your energy. That's incredible work. But for me to physicalize it and to connect the immaterial to the material world makes it more charged and more powerful. And so I am a big believer in encouraging people to have altars in their home or an altar. I'm a big believer in having people have relationships with certain objects. And again, we can say, is this all the placebo effect?

A (31:43)

I don't know. Could be.

C (31:45)

It's a mystery, but. But it's really effective. And so yes, moving your body, you know, having things that you're physically able to touch and smell, the simple act of lighting a candle, it just shifts something. I believe in the energetic field overall, including the one that emanates from us.

D (32:08)

Right. It causes focus. It's such a good point. And also what you said, Pam, about naming it or giving it, you. You now establish a personal relationship with something so it's more believable to you. And with the power of belief, that's where you can really execute some, you know, whether it's manifesting or action, you know, it causes that inertia that's. That's necessary, that personal belief or that movement. So it's brilliant. You know, I love that I'm going to be exercising a lot.

A (32:37)

Exercising?

D (32:38)

Sweetie, I'm going to be.

A (32:40)

I'm genuinely asking which one? Yeah, I mean, multi demons on the treadmill. Irene makes us work out. She's a trainer too, so it could be both for her.

C (32:55)

Right on.

A (32:56)

Now I'm understanding though, like you said, the act of just lighting a candle or whatever, people that are into crystals, whatever it might be an object or like, I don't think I really understood the connection until I just sorted that out my head out loud about doing the little action, it's what makes it stick with you almost In a way.

C (33:16)

Yeah. There's a somatic element to it. Exactly, exactly.

D (33:21)

I love that word, somatic. Good one, sweetie. I love that.

A (33:26)

Oh, I was going to ask you what was your first experience of doing a. I don't know if you call it a spell or doing a practice or like, what was the first thing that kind of lit your fire about this?

C (33:39)

Oh, my goodness.

A (33:40)

If you remember, I always hesitate to

C (33:42)

tell this story because.

A (33:44)

No press.

C (33:45)

I don't want to give witches a bad name or play into our stereotypes, but, Rachel, this wasn't the first spell I ever did. I did a lot of, you know, I was, what, probably 12 when I was first experimenting with this. So doing a spell to do well on a test or doing a spell because I had a crush on somebody or whatever, which. I don't believe in doing that kind of magic anymore. I don't believe in non consensual love spells, but that's a whole nother topic. I don't. I don't believe in manipulating or controlling people, but anyhow. But there was a spell that I did, and I'm ashamed to say that this was a spell against someone in middle school that I did not like. She was not a kind person and I cast a negative spell on her. And again, I don't do this kind of magic anymore. Can we please. But you're 12.

A (34:39)

We're gonna give you the power.

C (34:40)

Exactly.

A (34:41)

This is a very 12 year old thing to do.

D (34:42)

So who knows? You were being bullied and this was your way of fighting back as somebody who was literally a victim. Victim. So be kind to yourself. No self flogging. Yeah.

C (34:51)

Thank you. So I cast essentially a hex on her and lo and behold, I you not. She came into middle school the next day covered in boils.

D (35:03)

Oh.

C (35:03)

And what happened was she had fallen asleep in the sun and so she got sun blisters. But when I tell you I was so terrified and I felt really bad, like, I didn't feel like, oh, good. I was scared. I felt guilty. I felt bad for her. And that's when I decided I'm not gonna fuck with this negative, dark, hexing magic ever again. Because, you know, this is. It works how I want to be in the world.

D (35:35)

I'm not gonna fuck with you, sweetie. Let's put it that way. Okay.

A (35:39)

Can we put in an order, though? Can we put in one very large order with you?

C (35:44)

Oh, Rachel. There's to say about that. And many, many people are doing many different kinds of magic in that direction. But let me just Say there is a difference between cursing someone and doing protective magic. So there are spells called binding spells, which are to prevent someone from doing harm. You're not trying to harm them, but you are trying to prevent them from harmony. So there are binding spells, there are banishing spells. There are all kinds of things you can do that aren't about actually trying to hurt someone else. And that kind of magic I absolutely encourage people to do because we need a lot of protection right now.

A (36:31)

Well, I talk about my dog Ruffles

B (36:33)

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C (38:04)

Protein is now at Starbucks and it's

A (38:06)

never tasted so good.

C (38:08)

You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or Matcha. Try it today at Starbucks. I'm a very pragmatic witch. I want results. And yet I also want people to know that you still have to do things in the physical world too. Like if you cast a spell to get a job but you don't apply for a job in the real world, it's probably not going to go the way you want. So, to me, spells are like signal boosters. They help amplify your energies and your intentions and, you know, put that out into. I suppose we could call it the universe or whatever word we want to use there for that field that unifies us all.

A (39:01)

Okay, I have two questions. One is, what's a spell? Or I don't know if we call it. If that's what you call it in your daily life. But aside from the boils, which sounds very biblical, but aside from that, like, what's something maybe in your more adult life, like, your most sort of thing that blew your own mind? Because I. We all, like, we have some crazy manifesting stories, you know, and, like, you're supposed to, you know, write your order down. Like, I tell this story once. I got this surprise bill for $3,000, and I was like. And then I had, like, one moment of like, what is it? And then I just said, the next thought is, like, okay, I'm gonna need $3,000 to arrive, you know, And I swear that week I got a check for $3,000 from some, like, residual thing that I didn't even know was gonna happen. So we have some of those little magic stories when it's like, the exact thing. But I was wondering if you have something like that or maybe you don't operate like this. I'm just kind of curious.

C (39:57)

Yeah, I do have some of those stories. And at the same time, and I will answer your question, but at the same time, I also love setting an intention and then being surprised. And so I kind of try to split the difference between asking for something specific and also, you know, the older I get, the more I realize, like, I don't always know what's best. And sometimes you can ask for a specific job, let's say, or I want that house, and then the house is filled with black mold. You know what I mean? So I've been more careful to do, like, lots of, I don't know, occult fine print, where I say this or something better or this or something that will help benefit the world even beyond that which my imagination can conceive of.

D (40:48)

Right.

C (40:49)

But anyhow, absolutely, when it comes to manifesting things, I mean, most recently, I really wanted to find Magic Maker, my book, a really great home. I wanted to find the right publisher for it. I wanted it to reach as many people as it's meant to reach. I wanted to. Not to sound tacky, but get compensated well for it, because this is how I make my living. And so I cast a spell. Right before I had a whole series of meetings, I think I met with, like, 14 different publishers to pitch this book.

D (41:24)

Wow.

C (41:25)

This was all over Zoom. It was during the pandemic, and I started meeting with each of these publishers online. And then suddenly I just felt flooded, I'm telling you, like, head to toe tingles in one of these meetings. And it was uncanny. And this is again why I say witchcraft is an embodied practice. You feel these things in your body. There's just a knowingness. And so I just had this huge sensation. Like, this is the publisher, this is the editor. Go, go, go. Like, it was like a door flying open in my chest. And so cut to, you know, I'm talking to my agent after all these meetings, and he's like, what did you think? And we're going over all the different publishers, and I say, I just got this incredible sensation when I was speaking to Amy sun at Penguin Life. I just loved her. And I loved. I don't know, it was more than just what we were saying, though. It was all energy. And he was like, great, well, we'll see what happens. And then, as people know, some books go up for auction and people make different offers. And I said to Spirit, I'm like, can you please help make this decision obvious? Like, please, I don't want to have to choose between, like, the publisher that made me feel amazing but doesn't pay me enough to survive, and the publisher who maybe didn't make me feel as good but was offering more money. And lo and behold, Penguin Life came in with the biggest offer. Like, there was just no question. It was like, yeah, this is the door. Walk through it. And it was really uncanny. And. And my editor was just such a dream to work with. The whole process of writing of the. This book was very guided. I used a lot of magic to write the book. And so it was really powerful. And it continues to be.

D (43:25)

Wow, that is a powerful thing. First of all, specificity. And you grow with your magic. You know what to ask for. Right? And again, it's just a powerful reminder about manifesting, you know, like, it's like as simple as. Like when you were a kid and you wished for, I'm going rogue here. But when you wish to, school would be canceled. And then it was, you know what I mean? It's just like being specific and really channeling a lot of energy into that.

B (43:54)

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C (46:07)

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A (46:41)

My big takeaway. And it's so simple. But sometimes for me, the biggest revelations are, like, the simplest concepts. But the idea that to feel things in your body and to, you know, go with your vibes, your vibes are your body telling you something. Just like the negative stuff of the body keeps the score stuff. But then the positive stuff of when you're feeling that, you know, energetic tingle, that inexplicable connection. Like, this sounds so corny, but the fact that, like, sounds beautiful. Sweetie. No, but, like, we're animals. Animals feel things in their body. We forget this. Like, and so a lot of what you're saying about witchcraft and witchcraft is even the right word, but about witchy things and rituals and intuitions, are your body giving you information?

D (47:36)

That's right.

C (47:37)

It's stomatic.

D (47:39)

I love that word.

C (47:39)

That's it right there. And. And. And I'm learning this in my 40s. Right. Like, I have traditionally been a person who's much more in my head. And to get back to trusting how my body feels when I'm making decisions instead of just overthinking and ruminating and trusting that intuition and knowing that intuition is located in the body and not in the brain has just been, like, such an amazing revelation for me in middle age. And so I'm very like, I want everybody to know that.

D (48:12)

Right. It's not only revelatory, but it's literally, Rachel, how I got through the cancer. You know what I mean? I listened to my body this every step of the way. No matter whether I was being gaslit or not, I went with my intuition. It's life saving. Not only can you make, like, prudent decisions to excel in life and meet your goals or for. For.

A (48:32)

For.

D (48:32)

It's beneficial, but it's also life saving at times.

C (48:35)

Yeah. And it's also more fun. Like, I believe that we're supposed to walk in the direction of that which enlivens us, excites us, and makes us feel joyful and playful.

D (48:48)

Amen.

C (48:48)

That's sacred. That is sacred.

A (48:51)

Which brings us back to Sam Pinkleton and talking about theater and fun. And there's a sacredness in his work, even though it's also equally balanced with fun, which is just like, I'm not trying to plug this show I'm in. But Rocky Horror, I think, is very much like, it's sacred and fun all simultaneously. And that's why it's so fun to do. I mean, I don't have, you know, I'm not like, the lead in the show or anything. It's not like, look at me. I'm this, like, kind of side character, but I'm part of this vibration of this story that is very subversive and very fun and exciting. I love it. So.

C (49:29)

Yes, absolutely. And there's another phrase that I bring up a lot called reverent irreverence, and that is how I try to live my life, which is a sense of, yes, there's the holy and the sacred, and I try to show up with a lot of sincerity. And also, I try not to take any of it too seriously because it's all a mystery and we don't know what the fuck is going on, so we might as well have fun while we're here.

D (49:55)

I love that. I love that so much. It's so great because it takes off all pressure, which just allows you to be free, you know? It's beautiful. Oh, my gosh, sweetie, you're amazing.

A (50:07)

I know. This is. There's so many, like, mind blow. I keep doing, like. I'm doing all these gestures again. This should be on video because this should. I keep. I keep being like, whoa, she's like, doing the emoji. Mind blowing emoji with my. Throwing my head back in exclamation. Okay, sorry.

C (50:25)

Getting big.

A (50:27)

Were you about to say one more thing, though, and I cut you off, Pam?

C (50:30)

Well, I wanted to bring up if there's time. So there's a section in this book I had so much fun writing. This is in my book Magic Maker, and this is relevant to the two of you. It's a section on the gift of play and how play is magic. And one of the figures I write about is Del Close, who many of your listeners will know is one of the godfathers of improv. And Rachel, did you study with her?

A (50:59)

I did, yes.

C (50:59)

Yes. And Del was a witch, and he brought a lot of ritual into certain improv games that he came up with. And when I was researching this, it's like every light bulb in my brain was going off because I'm a big comedy fan. Like, Rachel, not to kiss your butt too much, but SNL is, like, very sacred to me. And so the idea that one of the. I mean, he was called the house metaphysician of snl, like, he had all of this magic, and I know he was a complicated figure, but the fact that he was weaving in magic and ritual and improv to Me, I'm like, well, that's the shit right there, right? It's all about being open, receptive, saying, yes, having fun, being mischievous.

D (51:52)

Wow.

C (51:52)

And I think it's, you know, comedy. What you both do is so magical. You're alchemizing shadow into light, and you're doing it with this sense of play and openness.

D (52:04)

So, I mean, this is mind blowing right here. I mean, this pretty much, boy, this is it. This is the. The conclusion to the entire show.

A (52:11)

And, I mean, we're very important. We're very important, Irene.

D (52:14)

We're important.

A (52:15)

That's my takeaway. We are goddesses.

D (52:18)

You are a goddess. I love you. You're very important to me.

C (52:21)

I will say that comedy, witches up

D (52:24)

in here and knowing how to, you know, being connected and just having fun and allowing that freedom. It's brilliant, you know?

A (52:33)

And also, I feel like Irene and any person in comedy could. Could agree with this. Like, you kind of feel like, you know, when you start on comedy, like, I just want to make people laugh or, like, look at me. Look at this funny thing I'm doing. Whatever. And then as you keep doing it, the connection with other people, the connection with the audience in terms of, like, I mean, taking myself out of the whole thing. When snl, like, for example. I'll take a recent example, when Colin Jost is doing Pete Hegseth. He's, like, taking the power away, and it's, like, so huge. It's like. I mean, it makes me feel like. And like, that's why everyone's laugh you hear, like, a laugh is like a collective sigh, like, ha, ha, ha ha. We're all, like, exhaling over this thing. That's so horrible, you know?

C (53:15)

Yes.

A (53:16)

That's a big sort of political manifestation of it, but just in general, like, having a room full of people laughing, there's nothing like, evil is not there. You know what I mean?

C (53:28)

Yes.

D (53:28)

Right.

A (53:28)

We are experiencing joy in this one moment.

D (53:31)

It's an exorcism. A collective exorcism is what it is. It really is. It's incredible. That's a great point, Drachi. Great point.

C (53:39)

And I'll just say that there's a lot of traditions and practices in magical history of laughter being a warding spell. It's how you protect Rachel. I don't know if you remember, but during our Rocky ritual, I talked about how I was taught that the best way to scare a ghost is to laugh and flash it, to just be like, I'm not taking you seriously, honey. I'm just gonna show you my titties and I'm gonna laugh you away. And so that is actually like, in a lot of traditions, not exactly that spell, but. But different versions of that. And so comedy is absolutely magic.

A (54:20)

Wow.

B (54:21)

Oh, my gosh.

A (54:23)

That was really cool. One thing I. When you mentioned Del, I think it's really interesting. Cause I've never thought about Del's work in terms of being connected to magic or witchcraft. Like, I was in my 20s. He was kind of intimidating. He was like a gruff person to me. But I don't respond that great to like, gruff people. Totally. I don't mean, like, he offended me anyway, but I just mean I didn't really, like, hang out with him, but I was in his class. But Del's whole thing about the herald and the long form improv thing, I never looked at it this way, but that is like a group spell. It's like a group exercise and collecting our consciousness. Consciousness? I. No, no, Collective consciousness. Creating this thing by listening to other people. And it does start off like a ritual. It starts off with everyone, like sort of chanting. I mean, the old school way of doing it. It's like chanting things around this topic, creating this thing connecting them all, and then it's over. Like, so that is very witch.

D (55:25)

Like, it's also like the chanting thing. Rachel, that's such a good point. It just reminded me, like, even when you're in church, there's chanting going on. Like, because chanting actually is meditative. And it again, it comes down to focus and energy is being synchronized. I never even thought of that. Brilliant.

C (55:43)

That's it. And the root of the word enchant or chant, it all roots back to song. And so song and this idea of making noise together and breathing together. I mean, I like to remind people too, the word inspire. It means to breathe within. It's as if the gods are breathing into you. And so all of these. All of these things that we just kind of take for granted in the ways we interact with each other and with the world, they root back again to magical belief and magical practice.

D (56:19)

Wow. It's amazing. And it's. And if we've learned anything, ladies, humor. And all these practices that you brought up here, Pam, they are light and they dispel darkness. They are the healing light. And light always beats out darkness. You know, darkness can't exist in the light. So that's something to remember. Of course, there's a lot of trees out there with my name and Jim's name out there, which I'm sad because that's you know, like when you just do something as simple as like Irene plus Jim when you're like in fifth grade, there's. That's actually magic too. We think it's benign, but guess what? That's magic. Right?

C (56:54)

Listen, when we make a wish on our birthday candles, that's casting a tiny little spell. If you have a lucky charm, if you make a wish on an eyelash or a penny, when you throw it in a fountain, these are all tiny little spells. We do this all the time. And I really believe that magic is our birthright. It's part of how we interact with the world.

D (57:15)

Wow.

A (57:16)

Love it.

D (57:17)

Love it.

A (57:18)

Pam. I feel like a fool.

D (57:19)

Mic drop.

A (57:20)

I feel like a fool doing a pendulum reading for you. Let's be honest, Irene.

C (57:24)

Oh, my goodness.

A (57:26)

Irene. Let's be honest, sweetie. As you would say, let's go, sweetie. I guess we have to though, because it's our ritual of the show.

C (57:32)

There we go for you.

D (57:34)

I'm gonna break out Queer Pen, sweetie. Cuz you are special.

A (57:38)

Somebody gave Irene this pendulum. It's rainbow, so she calls it queer pen. But oh, I love anyway. And I have this one that I found in my bedroom last night on Seth Meyers. I didn't know where my pendulum was and I asked my makeshift pendulum if my pendulum was in my bedroom and it said, yes, it's in your bedroom. Well, this morning, this pendulum, I'm not kidding. I was doing laundry. Irene, don't get traumatic memories. But it popped out of a pocket of jeans in my laundry. This one, not yours. Anyway, I was lifting up some pants and it like jumped out onto the floor and I was like, okay. That was my magic from Seth. What?

C (58:15)

I love it so much, Rachel. And I told you I saw your segment, which you were fantastic.

A (58:21)

I do.

C (58:22)

But I got very emotionally invested in this pendulum story, so I'm so glad I worked.

A (58:26)

Here she is. Here she is. Irene, do you want to do it? And then I'll see if I match or how should we do it?

D (58:31)

Okay. Yeah, let's do that. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Think of a question. You know the rules, sweetie. Don't say it out loud.

A (58:36)

Yes or no?

C (58:37)

Oh, wait. Okay, Okay. I always get so nervous when I do this kind of divination. Like this is where my anxiety comes in.

A (58:45)

And that's why we tell people. Well, you must know this, but we tell people not to ask anything that's going to make them sad if it gives an answer they don't want.

C (58:52)

Okay, but okay.

A (58:55)

And then you're gonna you're gonna reveal it after we give you our answer.

C (58:58)

Okay. I'm gonna do the most frivolous thing.

A (59:01)

But don't tell us till after really

C (59:03)

marinating on a lot. It's so frivolous, I can't even tell you.

A (59:06)

Frivolous is good.

C (59:07)

Okay.

A (59:07)

Okay, so. Ooh. Okay. What did you get, Irene?

D (59:11)

I got a yes on this one.

A (59:12)

I got a no, Irene.

D (59:14)

Really?

A (59:15)

I hate when we don't match.

D (59:16)

What are you doing? Wait. I hate when we don't.

A (59:18)

Mine went to instant no.

D (59:20)

Yes.

A (59:20)

And I always think I went to yes. Oh, shit.

D (59:23)

What is it? I hate it when we don't match.

A (59:25)

I really do, too.

C (59:26)

But this really reflects my inner turmoil, so.

A (59:30)

Oh, my God.

C (59:31)

I was at Century 21 the other day.

A (59:33)

I like where this is going.

C (59:35)

Okay, listeners, you know, department store in the city where you can get discounted designer clothes. And. And this is the only store where I'm like, why, yes, I will try on, you know, a garbage bag from Antwerp because I'm gonna look amazing in it because, oh, it's only $200 instead of $1600. Anyway. It's a wild place. It's a wild place. I tried on this top that was so beautiful. It was purple silk with the most giant sleeves. It looked like I was wearing a cape. Almost gorgeous. And I did not buy it because it was $300. And I've been like, should I go back? Should I buy this thing? It's so expensive. I shouldn't right now because I'm about to pay taxes. La, la, la. But I can't stop thinking about it, so I'm really torn. There's a lot of inner turmoil about this top, and neither of you have helped me. So thanks, Penjs.

A (60:33)

Now, Rachel. Rachel would say to go get it if you're still thinking about it. That's my rule of shopping.

C (60:40)

I don't know why this went right to no irresponsible. I. I mean, it's so irresponsible to do. And yet what a gorgeous garment it was.

A (60:49)

See, I think you should go get it. I'm gonna buck Penji. But I will say Penji, usually.

D (60:53)

I think you should go get it so I can be right.

A (60:56)

I'm sorry, sweetie, but Penji usually takes his time. This is going like instant no. But I don't know why it would feel so strongly about a lovely person.

C (61:05)

Knows I'm about to do my taxes and I'm. I just. I'm in no position to be buying a lavish top.

D (61:14)

How about this? Okay. So maybe you're not in the position to be buying a lavish top now, Pam, but what about this? What about you put a pin in that purchase and you go back, sweetie, and you gift yourself that damn top at a time that it's more financially feasible? How's that? Okay.

C (61:30)

I love it. Let me pay the taxes first. We'll see if. If I can do this. And maybe, you know, if the blouse is still waiting for me.

A (61:38)

I think you should get it to be. I think you should get it. I'm going to override. I'm gonna override my own pendulum reading. Irene is the. Irene is the master pendulum user. I'm merely an apprentice and I really.

C (61:52)

I need the listeners to know.

A (61:54)

Oh, yeah.

C (61:54)

I am not someone who regularly spends that kind of money on clothing.

A (61:59)

Okay, okay. Encourage you. But it's purple and it's flowy, and that goes exactly with snow. You would imagine a witch wearing.

D (62:06)

I am sinking.

A (62:08)

I am. Wait, I have a question that I forgot to ask, and then we can let you go. But, like, what's a day in life like, in terms of being a witch as your kind of career, I guess, right? I mean, you're an author. An author and a podcaster, but, like, do you do witchy things for people? I guess is what I'm trying to say.

D (62:28)

Services.

A (62:29)

Services rendered. Yeah. What does that look like?

C (62:32)

It looks like a lot of different things. So, yes, primarily, I'm a writer. I'm a podcaster. I have a podcast called the Witch Wave, and that is how I'm spending a lot of my time. I also teach workshops, and I do rituals for people, and I'm really selective about what I say yes to. So, for example, I've become dear friends with Jinkx Monsoon, the incredible drag superstar and Broadway star. And Jinkx invited me to do a ritual for her at Carnegie hall for her Carnegie hall debut. This was her Valentine's Day show. And she asked me to do a love spell as part of her show. And so I got to work with her and her amazing director and co writer, Bendelacreme, who's another drag hero of mine, and do this ritual as part of Jinx's show. And so that is, you know, a larger scale type ritual that I am sometimes, you know, invited to do, or the type of ritual I did for Sam and you all, Rachel. But I've had friends who've had me come to. For example, one of my friends is a head pastry chef, and she was working at the restaurant the Dutch in Soho a number of years ago. And at the time, she just said there were not great vibes in the kitchen. So she had me come and, like, make the vibes better in the kitchen for. For her and her staff. You know, I've done weddings. I've done blessings on babies. I mean, think, you know, any kind of milestone or moment in someone's life where they're looking for some kind of ritual or magic I'm open to doing. But I've really been called to do more of the types of rituals that I've done for Jinx and Sam and really figure out how to offer more public rituals for people. Cause I think people are craving this. Not necessarily witchcraft specifically, but I think people are looking for spirituality that's empowering and inclusive and is not attached to some kind of a patriarchal system that makes them feel ashamed. And so I am looking to offer more of that in the near future, too.

D (64:54)

Well, we love you, sweetie.

A (64:58)

It's so mutual. We love you and everyone. Check out Pam's books, Magic Maker and Waking the Witch and her podcast Witchwave. And thank you. This has been not only informative, but, like, rejuvenating, right, Irene?

D (65:16)

It's been illuminating. Rejuvenating. I'm gonna skip and jump and start laughing for nothing. I'm just gonna start.

A (65:25)

There we go.

D (65:26)

Just let it out. Why not, right?

C (65:28)

Yes. Cackle away. Cackle away, comedy witches.

A (65:37)

I'm saying the title of this. Cackling the Patriarchy Away. Oh, I love it.

D (65:43)

Keep that. Keep that.

A (65:44)

That's great, sweetie. I love it.

C (65:46)

Oh, my God. I love it, too. And I truly love you both. I am such a fan of you individually. I'm such a fan of this show. So thank you so much for having me on. What a thrill.

D (65:56)

This was so amazing. This was amazing.

A (65:59)

This was so great.

D (66:01)

It was so amazing. Because, you know, Pam, you really explained the most. It's like the most. Like Rachel said before, I like things simplistically said. And it's just, like, something that doesn't have to be too ritualistic, too this, too that. It's something that could be implemented by everyone, all ages, all ethnic backgrounds, all whatever. Like, it doesn't matter what your religion is or what you're accustomed to knowing. This is something that we can tap into, and it's only beneficial.

C (66:28)

So that's beautiful. I'm so glad you feel that way. I had such a ball with both of you. Thank you so much.

A (66:34)

Thank you. Well, thanks, Pam.

D (66:36)

Thanks, Pam.

A (66:39)

And you can find me on Instagram at Ray Dratch. That's R A E Dratch. And you can find Irene at IreneBremis. That's B R E M I S Bremis. And thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me on this journey into the world of Woo Woo. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch is a Q Code production executive produced by David

B (67:07)

Henning and Steve Wilson. Produced by Alexa Gabriel Ramirez, edited by Will Tendi.