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Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch
Sebastian Crane: The Ghosts of Salem
01:11:29
Just in time for Halloween, the first of a 3-part run of episodes from the ladies’ field trip to Salem, Massachusetts. Sebastian Crane is a tour guide who combines knowledge of the infamous witch trials with the legends, lore, and ghosts of history. He also touches on what purpose ghost stories serve, whether you are a believer or not. A fascinating, spine-tingling and poignant episode you won’t want to miss.
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- [00:00]
A
Limu Emu and Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty.
- [00:26]
B
Liberty.
- [00:26]
A
Liberty Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.
- [00:30]
C
Hello and welcome to the show. We're kind of excited about today's episode and the next two episodes after that because Irene and I did our first real field trip. Yes, field research, people. We went up to Salem, Massachusetts, and we interviewed two really interesting guests today we have Sebastian and he leads a Salem night tour. And Irene and I took the tour. We went to all the spots. And his area leads a little bit more into ghosts, folklore, haunted places of Salem. So that's why we're putting this one up just in time for Halloween. But he also knew a lot about the history as well, which we get into here. And then next week we interviewed the head of education for the Salem Witch Museum, a woman named Rachel Cris Doane, who's a real historian. And we talked in depth about the history of the Salem witch trials and so many areas around it. So we talked to her so much that we made it a two parter. It feels a little funny now that Irene and I learned so much about the actual witch trials to be putting this up for Halloween because, you know, it's some pretty dark history. It ain't all ghosts and jack o lanterns, people. I was imagining what Debbie Downer might say now, seeing someone dressed as a witch for Halloween. And she might say something like, oh, I really like your witch costume. You getting a lot of candy. Hope you're also commemorating the relentless persecution of the marginalized back in 1692. But that's why we're starting a little bit more with the ghosts for today in honor of Halloween and. Yeah. So first field trip, Salem, Mass. Hope you enjoy today's next week's guest and happy Halloween, everyone. Welcome to Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch, the podcast that explores the unexplained with humor and curiosity. Hello, hello, and welcome to Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch, here with Irene Bremes. Hi, Irene.
- [02:34]
B
Hello, sweetie.
- [02:35]
C
On location here in Salem, Massachusetts. And we are very pleased to be joined by Sebastian Crane, who is one of the guides at Salem Night Tour. Hi, Sebastian.
- [02:47]
A
Hello. Hello.
- [02:48]
C
Hello, Sebastian. We were lucky enough to take your tour last night. Irene and I Took the nighttime tour. And you are a fantastic tour guide.
- [02:56]
A
Aw, shucks. Thank you so much.
- [02:58]
C
You bring a lot of fun to what can be a very heavy topic. But the tour is about history and ghosts as well. So it kind of combines actual facts with some legends and lore.
- [03:12]
A
Yes, very ooky spooky. So like two parts twisted history and one part all of the ghost stories in the downtown area.
- [03:19]
C
Yes, and it was. It was really fun. And we got to see so many sites too, because we're only here for less than 24 hours. We had to pack a lot of.
- [03:27]
A
Speedrun, speed run, and we got to.
- [03:29]
C
See so many stops on the tour. So that was great. Highly recommend. But Sebastian, just to get started, how did you get involved in the whole ooky spooky of it all, as you call it? And are you from Massachusetts?
- [03:40]
A
I'm not from Massachusetts, so I'm a transplant. I was born in a teeny, tiny little suburb just outside of Chicago. Then I moved to New York City for school and I came here in 2016. So I think I can kind of consider myself an official local or local enough. But how I got into all of this, how I ended up as a ghost tour guide, I feel like I just sort of fell into it. But it was inevitable. Like, I was the kind of kid who grew up, oh my God, like icons, Maleficent, the Wicked Witch of the West. I was a big Disney villains kid. And then as I grew up, I got an interest in history. I gravitated towards alternative history, occult history. And when I moved to Salem, I didn't intend on becoming a historian of the area, but it just really enchante me not to like, use an obvious word. But I became so fascinated that I sort of steered my historic studies to what had transpired here because I was really curious about what really happened because there's so many misconceptions. So I was working in a local real deal magic wand shop at the time, and I was like turning all of my academic interests, and I have a lot of them, towards the witch trials. And I became obsessed. And eventually the owner of the Salem night tour, Tim McGuire, just like decided to. To toss me onto the streets like a cat and was like, you're so into it. You should talk about it. So here I am. Wow.
- [05:10]
C
And when you were like in college, were you studying history too?
- [05:14]
A
Oh, no. This is not gonna shock anybody. I'm a ghost tour guide who has a background in acting. So yes, I love classical theater. I still do a little bit of it. But definitely like my professional life, trends, history. And then I'm still like doing performance in Boston for fun, but strictly like religiously as a hobby. I really want to make sure that like performance stays fun for me. But yeah. Shocking no one ghost or guide.
- [05:41]
C
When I looked you up, did you just do Rocky Horror or something like that?
- [05:44]
A
I did. I was so excited. In 2023, that's how I got back into Boston theater. Central Square Theater was doing an all call for specifically trans artists to be part of Rocky Horror, which I think is very cool. And I walked in the door with no expectations and they were so kind. And then I got to be frank n furter, which was so cool because I have never this gonna. They're gonna revoke my goth card for this. I have never seen the Rocky Horror Picture show, the film. I have been waiting because I'm a Rocky Horror virgin to see it at like one of the midnight shows. I didn't watch it before I did the thing cuz I wanted to like keep it fresh or whatever. But yeah, that was time of my life. Clip clopping around in little heels. Yeah. For like six months. It was really the dream.
- [06:26]
C
It was very cool.
- [06:27]
B
Not surprising cuz you're so good at it.
- [06:29]
C
That's what I was about to say. Your tour, it's like just theatrical performance but like definitely had us on the edge of our seats even though we were walking.
- [06:38]
A
But yes, I love speaking in the scare font voice. That's what I feel like, my friend, is that's the whole deal lends itself to a lot of things like this.
- [06:47]
C
So okay, so you start doing these tours and then this is. But you've been doing them since 2017.
- [06:52]
A
Yes. Yeah, I'm definitely like an old dog at the company I work for. Salem Night Tour is one of the local companies in town, which is cool. So that has been here longer than I have certainly. I think our. Our company has been going for like 25 years.
- [07:06]
B
Wow.
- [07:07]
A
So I am. I'm really proud to be part of one of the local companies. I want to say that especially and I'm thrilled that you guys took a local tour because there are about like 10 to 12 companies that run all year long that are staffed by local historians this time of year. There's so many tourists. There's a lot of companies that come from out of town who are people who aren't local who will help people explore the town. But I'm always biased. If I go to a city, I want to get a local tour. So that's why I'm so proud to like represent Salem and be one of the tours. We do this every single night of the year, by the way, except for like Christmas and New Year's Eve. Yeah. So we are out here in the snow, which I think are the scariest ghost tours of Salem, to be totally honest, because, like wintry cobblestone streets, no one out there after 6pm and it's just me and like eight guides or excuse me, eight guests. That gets very, very creepy. So doing this year long is awesome. But yeah, since 2017, so. Oh, the only thing that's really changed is like I just get more in depth with my research every year. I love that we're unscripted, so I can like, as I learn even more new things, I can incorporate them into the tour. The only thing that's really changed since 2017 is like the depth and breadth of my research and the ghost stories. And also like, oh, my body feels the cobblestones. Like watching the cobblestones every night as you guys, you guys were out there on a kind of chilly evening.
- [08:29]
B
Oh, we got our steps in.
- [08:30]
A
Oh my goodness, we did.
- [08:31]
C
So we met with a, you know, historian of the Salem Witch Museum this morning. Of course, we didn't really talk about ghosts there, so I mean, we could kind of take this however you want. Like, definitely. It's Halloween, you know, ghost stories, like as we heard some of them last night. If you want to tell us some of Salem's notorious ghost stories or mix that in with some of the history or however you want to.
- [08:55]
A
Absolutely. I'm so glad you've already had a historian so I can get to like the spooky. And the spooky of that's true. Let me just crack my knuckles. Well, let's start here. I mean, there's plenty to talk about because Salem is, I will say, like haunted to the core. In terms of American cities that are riddled with ghosts, we. I'm biased, but I think we are the most haunted, certainly in New England. Even Nathaniel Hawthorne, he was the author of the Scarlet Letter. It's a very like self flagellatory text that you probably suffered through in freshman English. Yes. He said that any houses of antiquity in New England are invariably possessed by spirits. So much so that it's not even worth like mentioning that in a text. So he was about. Even in the 19th century, New England was considered haunted and Salem, where he hailed from, is maybe, I don't know if you would call it best of the best or worst of the worst. If we're talking ghost hunting, every single shopkeeper, barista working here has a story about something lurking in the basement. Mundane things about, like, cold spots in the cafe. Every other building on the main downtown strip that we were exploring is just, like, saturated with spirits, which I think is very cool. And by spirits, I mean also like stories. And it's just like they're casually exchanged here in town. It is exactly as you would expect, especially with the people who work where we were exploring that history, historic downtown area that we were checking out, which, if you visit Salem, it's like the heart of things. You are walking up and down Essex street, shopping all of those esoteric shops. That is like the haunted. It's like the paranormal node of Salem. Probably because it saw a lot of action historically. In terms of the most famous spirits we have here, definitely. Well, right across the street from where the Salem Night tour meets is the most haunted mansion in Salem. And there is a very vicious spirit that is still lurking in the bedroom where he was brutally dispatched in 1830. The ghost of Captain White haunts a mansion. We also have Charter Street Cemetery that we took a look at. That is a cemetery established in 1637. And a lady in white is lurking in the back corner of that one. We don't know who she is because the graves in the back are anonymous, as I mentioned to you last night. Totally washed, faceless by seawater. But there is a ghost that I kind of talked about a little on the tour, but we didn't get to stop there because the cemetery in question is in a residential area. The weirdest thing that's ever happened on the route, and this is, like, just part of the job, I learned. I got a text from my manager one night as I was giving a tour that said just a heads up. And it was a mass text to all the guides. The poltergeist of Giles Corey may have been sighted in Howard Street Cemetery. So you should perhaps avoid it tonight. And I just looked on it, my phone. I was like, is this real life? Like, am I getting paid to be here in a world where this is the kind of text that's coming from, like, upper management? It was so wild. It was like, whether you believe it or not, like, just be aware that he may have been cited. I mentioned him last night. He was an victim of guilt trials. Yeah.
- [12:22]
C
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- [14:03]
A
Giles Corey's ghost is tied to the infamous witch hysteria of 1692. He is one of the. If there are celebrities of that terrible miscarriage of American justice, he definitely is one of them. He was one of 20 innocent victims that were executed for the quote unquote crime of witchcraft. He however, was exceptional in that he was the only one who was not hanged. He was pressed to death. And Howard Street Cemetery is just off my route. It is tucked away in a sleepy residential area. It's like overseen by a charming little row of suburban houses. It's a big open field behind like a Polish Catholic church. And this is somewhere that not a lot of people visit. So I'm extra excited to talk about it. Giles Corey's spirit is said to appear in that area by day, night. It doesn't matter when he wants to show up, he shows up. And we assume that he was pressed to death there because that is where his ghost has appeared for centuries. If his remains are not there, it would be surprising to me. I don't know why he would pick Howard Street Cemetery, but that's his own business. But Giles Corey was an elderly farmer who was extremely stubborn and if you have read Arthur Miller's the Crucible, kind of like defining work about the Salem witch trials in the modern consciousness, they're really generous to Giles Corey. They paint him as like a sweet, innocent old man. I will just say for the record, he was not that. The neatest picture that I can paint about his temperament was that prior to the trials, Giles had been taken to court for beating one of his servants to death. This is not a generous old man, but this was the witch trials victim that went up against who I think is one of the titular villains of the tragedy here, Sheriff George Corwin. So this elderly man was tortured to death by the sheriff in Howard Street Cemetery. It was a matter of trying to get, how do I say this? So this was a witch hunt. It was also a land grab and a money grab because every time someone went to the gallows, the government, the police and the judges would get money from the estate of the victim. The victim of the hanging would not be able to give their money to any of their descendants. It all was seized by the sheriff and then he got to divvy up the fortune as he saw fit. And Sheriff George Corwin, this 26 year old who was hired by his uncle, one of the judges, his judgment was usually thus, 2/3 of that person's property for me and the boys, and then one third for the person who accused the witch. Incentivizing accusations. Giles Corey had a lot of enemies. He knew that he would be accused. He wanted to ensure that his descendants got his money. So when he was taken in for his hearing after being accused of witchcraft, this old man was asked, are you innocent or guilty of the crime of witchcraft? And he took the stand and found a legal loophole. He just didn't plead one way or the other at all. So he stalled the process so he couldn't have a formal trial, he couldn't be formally executed. His kids would then hopefully get his money. But the sheriff, who made money every time someone went to the gallows for the crime of witchcraft, did not want other people getting inspired by this because he and the judges and the puritan government were invested and the accusations continuing. So the sheriff, in a calculated display of brutality, dragged this old man from his holding cell, which was probably where 10 Federal street, the haunted office building that we explored yesterday, stands just across to Howard Street Cemetery today. Back then it was just an open field and in front of 100 people. He laid that old man down in a shallow ditch, put a wooden board on his chest and started with about a 30 pound rock right on that guy's chest. Giles Corey's chest. And in front of the crowd, the sheriff took his cane and placed it on the ground like beside Corey and asked him again the question that he had been asked again and again in his hearings. Are you innocent or guilty of the crime of witchcraft? To which Giles Corey defiantly answered more. Wait. And they lent it to him. It took him three days to finally press him to death. And that's exactly how it sounds. It's a form of medieval torture that our sheriff chose to employ that had never been seen on this side of the pond prior and thankfully has never been seen since. But Giles Corey did over the course of those three days. Allegedly. And this is where it gets very spine tingly. Say one other thing. Aside from more weight, just before he passed, legend says that he also glared at our sheriff and declared, I curse you, Sheriff Corwin and all of Salem. Wow. And this is wild. But he was not a witch. But the curse seems to have worked. And we definitely didn't get into this last night, right? Sheriff Corwin, after Corey's death, the sheriff died of a, we'll call it like a standard heart attack. Like it was a simple heart attack in 1669. That isn't extraordinary to me. What is extraordinary is every sheriff who took up the badge after him here in Salem has died of similar heart complications and drunk. History on YouTube does the best job of teaching this specific curse. That is my go to. If people are curious about this, it is a legit study that was done. People researched this. A Sheriff in the 70s got curious about it and saw that this trend went all the way back. Especially when his father actually, who was the sheriff before him, fell prey to these complications. The curse was quote unquote lifted in 1991 when the sheriff's office was moved out of Salem proper. So the sheriff's office has moved and our sheriffs so far have been okay. But Giles Corey wasn't a great guy. But he was definitely rebelling against a tyrannically corrupt religious judicial system in the way that he could. It was very terrible. But this leaves us with that curse and his poltergeist roaming Charter Street Cemetery, which is malevolent enough for my manager to have texted me about it that one night. Whenever Giles appears, he's said to appear as a full bodied apparition. So a ghost that just looks like you or me, flesh and blood, appearing as an elderly puritanical man, but with like burning, hateful eyes. Historically, when he has been Sighted. He is an omen of terror and destruction. So he appeared, famously before the great fire of 1914 here in Salem. And whenever he shows up, something wretched is about to happen to the town.
- [21:15]
B
What happened when he appeared? And you got the.
- [21:17]
A
Oh, my God. When he got the text?
- [21:18]
B
Yeah, the text.
- [21:19]
A
I was just like, do I need to go on vacation for a little bit after this? I want to say nothing in particular. We may have had a very bad nor'. Easter. I was just, like, kind of braced for something, but nothing happened in a huge way. But I want to say recently, like, in modern history, as the 20th century has worn on, as that sheriff's office has moved, disasters tend to be smaller scale, not bigger scale. So they're a little more intimate. They might happen to the person who saw him. So those aren't, like, stories that I would care to share because they are, like, people's private lives that may have been, like, maybe upset by an omen. Like, I'm not sure. There you have it. But he's just bad news and still extremely angry. And I wouldn't blame any of the puritanical ghosts if they are truly still lingering with us for, like, just continuing to harbor this animosity. I will say why I love ghost stories, specifically in the United States of America, is because if history is a house, ghost stories are all the stuff that we've put up in our attic that we cannot bear to throw away, but we never show to other people. And that's the kind of history that interests me. Alternative history, the taboo, the stuff that mainstream historic propaganda has tried to bury. And that's the stuff everybody comes to Salem to ask about. It's like, people want to know what really happened. They want to get into the chaos and the tragedy of it. I find that ghost stories are a way for a culture to process what has happened. And it's like all of our dirty laundry of history. Right. If you're looking at. I love. I brought my book here. This is like my emotional support book, An American History in Haunted Places by Colin Dicke. I just bring it whenever I'm doing a thing because I. I stand by so many of the sentiments here. Colin Dicke, in his book Ghostland, calls ghost stories the backstage of history, too. So it's. I love the tourists that take ghost tours. I don't know if I could ever give or be as happy. No. What do I want to say? I don't know if I could ever sustain a career as a tour guide this long talking about any other kind of history, except for ghost stories, Because I want to talk about the things that are usually left unsaid in academia. And that's what ghost stories are. It's all of, like, the things that are not addressed in the light of day in scholarship, but that everybody is the most interested in because it's a way for us to, like, process what happened. So our ghosts in Salem are angry. Our ghosts in Salem are determined to be remembered. Some of them are more gentle. Like, there are young, puritanical women who passed who, like their ghosts, still tug at our sleeves and our coats. And I think when we're dealing with the specter of the witch trials hanging over this town and it will never leave us, I think that our ghost stories provide us a lot of catharsis because our ghosts are looking for comfort. Our ghosts are angry. And are we not, as a society, looking for comfort and still angry about this happening with them? So I think that's pretty cool.
- [24:40]
C
I love what you're saying about ghost stories as a whole, because here we are. We talk about ghost stories a lot on here, but we've never looked at it from any sort of like. For lack of a better word, like, academic reason behind it. But this is so astute and poignant, even about, like, the ghost stories are the kind of unfinished business, like, the emotional residue from, you know, cold, hard facts of history. So I think it's really fascinating to hear you talk about it like that.
- [25:08]
B
And they leave an imprint, and they need to be seen, you know, and us believing or people wanting to see them, actually, we keep them alive in a certain way, you know, so each sheriff believing this ominous, you know, they were foreboding that they're going to have a heart attack or whatever, like this ominous thing lingering over them. Maybe they kept that alive, too.
- [25:30]
A
I believe in the magic of the human imagination. I think that. That that's not a cheap thing. I think whether you believe or you skeptic, our imaginative power is really profound. So those sheriffs here in town, I would hope that anyone in that position, I will just say this over the mic, is that, like, I hope they have a deep sense of dread that if they abuse their position, that some sort of, you know, spectral justice is coming for them. I don't think that's a bad kernel of fear to have in someone in that position. Just saying. But, yeah.
- [26:10]
C
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- [26:35]
A
You.
- [26:35]
C
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- [28:28]
B
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- [28:59]
C
Okay, so the, the woman in white in the graveyard, like, who is seeing these sightings? Just for like, just to be like a little more specific of, you know, you're in this town and they're like, oh, there's a lady in white. But like, what's a reporting of this? Or what does she look like? Or what's her deal?
- [29:18]
A
Am I selling snake oil to children?
- [29:20]
C
No, no, no.
- [29:21]
A
You should be interrogating every single post tour guide.
- [29:24]
B
But cross examining.
- [29:25]
A
No, let's cross examine. I wouldn't have sit down with you guys if I didn't want to do something like that.
- [29:31]
C
Well, we like to believe. And then we also always throw in the little like, I'm imagining like a skeptic listening. And just like for the woman in white. I just want to know more about the woman in white.
- [29:39]
A
Yes. So who is seeing this woman in white in Charter Street Cemetery? Locals and tourists alike. I will say I'll get into her story certainly so that everybody can hear. But at the Salem Night tour, we collect our stories by word of mouth, which is very cool. So we tell you about the most consistently reported paranormal activity. Because there's so much in Salem. How do you choose? So I deal with stories on my route about occurrences that happen in the same way in the same place to different people who have never spoken to each other and don't know about the history, which I think is a very cool way to collect folklore. So the lady in white, Charter street cemetery. If you have not seen it, Google it. She is beautiful. The cemetery. And there are 450 stones, most of them from the 1700s. So it's very old school cemetery. And in terms of European burial sites in America, that means it is practically an ancient beast, right? Because we only have stuff from the 1600s in terms of like colonial cemeteries. The back corner of Charter street cemetery is watched over by very sleepy old trees. And that corner where this lady in white is seen is said to be the paranormal hotspot. And for good reason, because that's that point at the back of the cemetery used to be the furthest point out to sea. So what you're looking at if you visit Charter street, the wall on the backside of the cemetery used to be the sea wall.
- [31:18]
C
Oh, that was really interesting.
- [31:20]
A
Which means that waves crashed up over the side and would flood the back graves. So if you wander the rest of the cemetery, all the stones are so perfectly preserved. You can see those beautiful, like memento mori, like skulls with wings that all the cool Goths are wearing on their leather jackets. You know, beautiful, beautiful stones. But in the back corner, they are stones that are faceless because of the water damage from specifically the 1700s. So old stones. If there is an untold story in the cemetery, there's a woman who's desperate to be remembered in death. No wonder she keeps popping up. Who sees her again? Tourist, locals. She doesn't seem to discriminate. She just wants to be seen. I want to say if the cemetery is very busy, that is not a time when people have reported that she's out there. Again, like off season, a lot of the ghosts, when the town is like quieter and maybe if you are a believer has more room to breathe, they.
- [32:14]
C
Stay away from the tourists too.
- [32:15]
A
Yeah, honestly, they're very wise. But yeah, she appears in the back corner and my dear fellow guide had a really cool theory about her because some people say that she appears as mist or on misty mornings. And she would have been when she died, that was right next to the sea. We had a lot of Irish and Scottish immigrants as well. And if you go to Ireland and Scotland, you cannot walk a mile without a legend about a misty lady in white that tends to be like Scottish and Irish folklore. So that was a theory that was just posited to me like last night by one of my colleagues and saying that maybe, like how she manifests is a nod to her origins. So we couldn't know who she is. But I think that that's such a beautiful idea and it is not my idea. I just heard it. And so this is. I'm happy to pass that along because I think it's very cool. So that is something else that I will probably now incorporate into my tour because it's really magnificent.
- [33:11]
B
Has anybody ever captured her, like on a video or energy. You know how they have equipment?
- [33:18]
A
Yeah. I will say that lady is extremely elusive. She appears but doesn't communicate and doesn't allow herself to be captured. And we can get into the ghosts that do communicate and do allow themselves to be captured because I know if people are coming here. Respectfully, I don't like the word ghost hunting because people or spirits I don't think should be hunted, but like ghost in investigating, if you come investigating, I'm going to tell you where to get your camera out for sure. But, yeah, that lady just seems. I wonder if she's, like, on a loop or something like that. There's some, like, paranormal enthusiasts who will say that ghosts just kind of, like, tread their old life.
- [33:55]
B
She's playing hard to get, sweetie.
- [33:56]
A
She is. Wait.
- [33:57]
C
One thing about that cemetery that was so cool, because I haven't been here since elementary school, I think I've never done Salem. And I thought it was so. So poignant seeing the stones with each person's name, the people that were executed. And it's like it goes around kind of in a. Like, a semicircle around the cemetery on the outside of it. And each little. Not a bench, but these stones. Each stone has a person's name on it. That was so, like, chilling, and that was powerful.
- [34:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, let's crack open the can of worms. That is the Salem Witch trials memorial that you're describing, because that was one of my. That's one of my favorite places in town. It was established in 1992, so 300th anniversary of the trials, the city of Salem really started to take acknowledging what happened here very seriously. That changed tourism forever, by the way. So there was this huge celebration where they debuted this beautiful courtyard that you just described. And there is one stone bench for every single victim of the trials, I would say, or excuse me, there's one stone bench for every single person who was formally executed during the trials, because there were victims beyond the formal executions. But it's a gorgeous spot. And if you visit. That's true. Just off of that spooky Charter street cemetery. I'm here all year long. I give tours every night, and there is not a single evening that goes by that there is not some flower, coin, note of tribute that's placed there. So this is a place to memorialize the victims who were never given formal funeral rights. The puritan government deliberately denied these people any formal honors and any grave markers. They were buried in a mass grave right next to the hanging tree where they were executed. And if families wanted to recover their bodies, that was also punishable by death. So I love that the city of Salem took it upon themselves to. There's no righting that wrong, but to memorialize those people really says something about the direction that Salem wants to turn in today in terms of, like, how it's dealing with its legacy.
- [36:01]
C
Right.
- [36:02]
A
But, yeah, I think you've already spoken with a historian that probably told you as much. But this 17th century witch hunt started. Started, like, every single 17th century witch hunt. And I mentioned this on my tour last night, but it's so important to me to note that when witchcannet breaks out in a teeny, tiny little town in the 1600s, the same person always gets accused first, and that is the outcast, and she is usually a woman. But witch hunts were convenient vehicles by which quietly hateful communities could turn on their most vulnerable and their most visibly different marginalized neighbors. I'm not gonna play around with saying that that was the kindling for the Salem witch trials. Things spiraled out of control and became the largest witch hunt in American history because money got involved as well. So it became this land grab when people realized that if you accused someone who went to the gallows, you would get some of their property. And so the witches, quote, unquote, got more privileged as the trials went on. But why this started was undeniably because it was a very tense set of Puritan colonizers who were just waiting for the spark that would light the fire of all of them turning on people in their community that they did not approve of. So the first accusations were, of course, slung at the people who were at the bottom of the social ladder. And that's why it fulfills me to talk about this history every night. I've been doing it a long time, so it's something you could get sick of, a job most certain. But this work is so important to me because I am such a firm believer, even though I'm slinging ghost stories on Cobblestone street, which is very fun, but the root of the history that happened here. I am such a believer in the notion that if we forget the lessons of the past, we are doomed to repeat them kind of thing. Absolutely. And I love, love bringing this history to people because I think they come for. They come to get their spines tingled, and I'm going to do it to them. But then it's also like, they also want to know the truth of what happened here. And I'm so happy to provide it to them because it feels just like deeply important work. Not to make a very fun job overly serious, but it's like, this is why I keep coming back, because if I ever get tired of telling the same story again and again, I know it's the first time that someone is hearing about this, and how can I not be excited to come in and get to be the person, like the vessel to impart that to them? Right?
- [38:31]
B
The witch hunt continues. It's very important, you know, so it's like you said, you know, this is A very poignant, very relevant message. And it continues. Continues to be. Otherwise history repeats itself.
- [38:41]
C
Yeah, it sure does. Sure does. Look out your window. Yes. Oh, boy.
- [38:47]
B
Yeah.
- [38:48]
C
Oh, Okay. I have a couple other questions. The whole thing about the land grab. I'm just bringing this up because our. The lady we interviewed this morning said something otherwise. So she was saying that actually the land grab wasn't a thing, but what they could take was anything that wasn't like the actual property. Like they could take their, like, belongings, things, their valuables, their cows, like, stuff like that. Yeah. Not the actual property. So the estate itself, but all the things within it is that.
- [39:17]
A
She is correct. Okay, so she's correct. And this is. When I say land grab, I mean a property. It's an easy way for me to like, say that so people on the tour can understand it. But I will say, like, the sheriff would show up at your house. Right. And legally raid your property. So when I say land grant, that's what.
- [39:33]
C
Okay. I just didn't want later for you to be like.
- [39:35]
A
I didn't mean like, oh my God. Yeah, no, thank you.
- [39:38]
C
I also wanted to ask you, do you want to talk about the murder of Joseph? Is that his name?
- [39:44]
A
Oh, yes.
- [39:44]
C
The murder of Joseph White, the richest man in town. And this was much later.
- [39:49]
A
Oh, yes.
- [39:54]
C
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- [42:24]
A
Okay, so this is not about the witch trials at all. Imagine Salem in the early 1800s. So full blown Jane Austen Bridgerton nonsense. Taking place in the year 1830, the year of our interest, when the most magnificent mansion on Essex street was owned by Captain Joseph White. Now this mansion today is called the Gardner Pingree House and it's right across from where we begin our tour. That is like where home base is. So this towering red brick 19th century 3 floor statement of opulence is now now the most haunted mansion in Salem, Massachusetts. It's got a wrought iron gate. It looks very like Disney's Haunted Mansion right now. One springtime morning, the morning after the crime, it dawned gray and still on Essex street, and in the hush one of the captain's servants was making his way through the wrought iron gate around to the back of the house to the servants quarters to start his daily duties. But he never made it there because he noticed that something was amiss. There was a window left ajar on the first floor and there was a wooden board leaning against the wall leading up to it. Someone had broken into the house in the middle of the night. Thinking it was simply a burglary, the servant panicked and raced up the spiral staircase and the inside of the mansion and flung himself into his 80 year old employer's bedroom where he found Captain Joseph White very, very dead in a growing pool of his own blood, face down on his bed. So the physician raced over early morning to inspect the extremely wealthy corpse. He determined that the Captain had been bashed twice in the side of the head with something like a blunt metal pipe or a bludgeon. And this one's for the true crime fans. That wasn't all that had been done to the body. When they rolled the corpse over onto its back, they were horrified to find that Captain White had also been stabbed 13 to 15 times in the heart after he had died with a force so passionate that the hilt of the blade that did it actually cracked some of his ribs over the course of this attack. So who done it? That is the question that was flying through Salem. But unfortunately it was very hard to pin down Leeds because everyone hated this man so much. It literally could have been anyone. This guy was like a 19th century get off my lawn you kids guy. He had a lot of money. He loved to flaunt it. But that alone didn't inspire this deep seated vitriol that the town held for him. Why they truly hated the Captain was because of how he had come to acquire his enormous fortune. The Captain was an unrepentant slave trader. So in the early 1800s here in Salem, there's a lot of people who would love to see something like that happen to someone like him. But they realized they could narrow down their suspects when the police discovered that his will was missing from his house. So all of this mess was also about the money. Turns out Captain White had a 40 year old niece who had a daughter who had recently married a young fortune hunting man named Joseph Knapp. And the Captain had written out that guy from the will because he didn't want Knapp to see a scent of his bloody fortune. Joseph Knapp hired a gentleman, Richard Crowninshield Jr. To do the deed after he himself stole the will. Richard Crowninshield Jr. Was Salem's bad boy. He was like a mustache twirling tie to the train tracks. Disaster of a human being. And he looks exactly like however you are imagining him. I guarantee it. Richard didn't need the money. Even though Joseph Knapp hired him to kill the captain for $1,000. Richard Crowninshield Jr. Was also the son of a wealthy merchant. So this is aristocrat on aristocrat crime. Richard took the job for the thrill. This was his first killing. He seems to have been enticed by the Notion of experiencing what it felt like to murder a man. So this is a cast of very unsavory characters all around that this mess is unfolding around. And the trial fell apart completely. Joseph Knapp was a blabbermouth who some people say that he got caught because he was like drinking in a tavern and bragging about this. It was Baby's first murder all around. It was very messy. And Richard Cranechiel Jr. Met a very sticky end by his own hand in a holding cell after he realized that he had been found out. And it was really all for nothing too, because the captain was a businessman. And I didn't mention this on the tour last night, but he had a copy of his will with the city the entire time. So even though they stole the will and tried to get the inheritance, it was completely in vain. So this historic mess rendered the Gardiner Pingree House, Salem's most haunted mansion. And that is right across the street. And you know who is unfortunately still lurking in the bedroom where he was so brutally dispatched. I would not want to tangle with the ghost of Captain White. I think that is, given who he was and everything that transpired to lead to his demise is just like that bedroom on the second floor of that house. I have been told by friends and colleagues who are more psychically sensitive that the vibes are really, really wretched. I am about as paranormally sensitive as a ham sandwich. So I had a great time taking that tour going up into the house offered by the Peabody Essex Museum, who owns the property. But I've been told that people who have more sensitivities that room can be very uncomfortable. I explored the whole thing, had no problem because as you said, I can't see ghosts or feel their presences, which is awesome for me doing the work that I do night after night.
- [48:17]
C
And you said sometimes people claim to see him in the windows. They're like, yes, oh, yes.
- [48:22]
A
So that is a ghost that is sighted when car lights turning on Hawthorne Boulevard flicker through that bedroom at night. The left hand side window on the second floor, specifically that window of his bedroom is where the captain is still sighted. I'm looking quite ghostly. So it's at night, so it's like monochromatic. It's classic Disney's Haunted Mansion nonsense where like he's standing there with pale white hair in a beautifully pressed suit, glaring down at passersby on the street below.
- [48:54]
B
Of course, still glaring.
- [48:55]
A
Yes. And I hope he stays mad.
- [48:57]
B
You know, he's. It seems like the poltergeists in Salem were Vicious, deplorable humans that were also very inhuman, humane. And they still maintain their horrendous and rancid disposition and death.
- [49:09]
A
Yes. So if you are a believer. No, say it.
- [49:13]
C
I'm just laughing at horrendous and rancid.
- [49:16]
A
You're getting into the Salem spirit if you're using words like that. I'm all about it. I'm gonna give you tonight. But yeah, there's the ooky spooky for you.
- [49:30]
C
I just thought of one more question.
- [49:31]
A
Yes.
- [49:32]
C
I loved your little tie in with the whole Parker Brothers, which we didn't mention yet. So tell us about that tie in with this.
- [49:38]
A
This is the one fun fact that I know as a historian, so I hope you enjoy it. There's a lot of unpleasant history here in Salem, but this house also has some very adorable history that is tied into this very horrendous trial. Because we had the Parker Brothers game board studio here in Salem for a good portion of the 20th century. They gave us Monopoly, I believe they definite gave us the world's first mass market Ouija board.
- [50:06]
B
Oh boy.
- [50:07]
A
Great idea, Lance. They also developed the American version of the British game Cluedo. So that became the American version. The American version was called Clue. And the Parker brothers developed that board game right down the street from that mansion where Captain White was murdered in the Belgium with the candlestick. So historians, I need to say this, are like arm wrestling about whether or not they were actually inspired. Inspired. But it really doesn't matter because that house, whether it's true or not, is called the Clue House by literally everybody in Salem. So if you're the gardener, Pingree House is so hard to remember. If you just hear like, yeah, it's right next door to the Clue House. Or you know, our home base is right across from the Clue House. That's why we call that Haunted mansion that for very obvious reasons. And I think that's very wholesome.
- [50:55]
C
That's a fun. That's a fun fact. Oh yes, yes, it's murder adjacent, but it is a fun fact.
- [51:00]
B
It is a fun little fact.
- [51:01]
A
All of a. Our fun facts are unfortunately, murder adjacent. In this house. I'm like, oh my God, you're bringing me on a comedy podcast. I was like, I have to.
- [51:09]
C
Some of our episodes are pretty serious. Yeah. You definitely don't. I mean, you have brought the humor, but we definitely don't have. Like, it's not every episode. It's like, haha. Sometimes we're like, why are we listed under comedy? Like, this was really Sad excerpts.
- [51:24]
A
And I was like, okay. I was like, I think, I think this is the right fit for you.
- [51:27]
C
Some of them aren't like comic at all. And then other ones we have like, you know, Will Ferrell on. So yeah, it's a run the gamut. But a little more about this book and the. What you were saying about the ghost stories and how they maybe we don't need anything more. But I loved that because here we are like talking about ghost stories and our sort of thing is like, well, do you believe or don't you? I don't know. Well, I saw this thing. I saw that, like creepy stories. But then I've never thought about it in this wider term of like the purpose. But. But what about more about this book?
- [52:05]
A
Yes.
- [52:05]
C
Ghostland by Colin Dickens next to me.
- [52:07]
A
Because I bring it if I ever do an interview, even if I don't crack it open. It just is like a beautiful touchstone for me in my research. So shout out to another really awesome historian. Colin Dicke wrote this book, An American History in Haunted Places that explores, yes, ghost stories. So it is going to be one like to read by candlelight if you want your spine tingled. But it specifically talks about why we tell American ghost stories. So it chronicles the most haunted places in America. And Dickie is a skeptic, like a proud one who is open heartedly analyzing why Americans need to tell the ghost stories that we do because we don't have. We destroyed so much indigenous history that the structures that we have here, the haunted houses, are never gonna be as old as the like, haunted castles of Europe, you know, because all we have is like this terrible blank slate of architecture from the 1600s onward. So we're relatively like young in terms of architecture because of the travesties that made us. We are so haunted, though. America is riddled with ghosts. And this is the first book. This was a great comfort to me actually a few years into my work as a ghost tour guide, because it helped contextualize what I was doing in the city I was doing it in. Because this is harrowing history that everybody is desperate to explore. And in this book, it is specifically about an American experience, about why we tell ourselves these stories again and again and cannot help but circle around our campfires and stay up late night. These. The telling of ghost stories is also inherently human. We have stories like as long as we've been writing things down, we have been chronicling ghost stories. So that means we've been telling them around campfires for years. Like, this is Old tradition. This is a human thing. We have been telling ghost stories since ancient times and we're not going to stop telling ghost stories. We are fascinated by the paranormal and, and in this book it addresses the fact that these are taboo for a reason. They're hidden histories that we can't look away from even though they're swept under the carpet or like skeletons hidden in closets, we have to keep peeking because it's like we will never throw them out. I'll say again, I love thinking about history as it's presented to us as a beautiful house. And then all of these ghost stories are what we keep in our attic and like, can't bear to throw away. I would love to read a little quote from this book, if that's okay, and see if I can find it. Yeah.
- [55:08]
B
These stories and you know, before writing there was always oral tradition. That's how you kept history alive, just by telling stories.
- [55:15]
A
Oh, here we go. Okay, I'll keep myself to one paragraph. This is really early, so no spoilers in the book. Don't worry. Colin Dickey writes, our country's ghost stories are themselves the dreams or nightmares of a nation. The Freudian slips of whole communities, uncomfortable and unbidden expressions of things we'd assumed were long past or no longer important. If American history is taught to schoolchildren as a series of great striding benchmarks, the history of America's ghost stories is one of crimes left unsolved or transgressed, transgressions we now feel guilty about. They offer explanations for the seemingly inexplicable, address injustices after the fact, and give expression to our unstated desires and fears. They can also just as easily mold reality to our preconceived notions and cover a messy reality in favor of well worn cliches and urban legends. Ours is a forward looking country that can have trouble sometimes reckoning with the past and the actions of our ancestors. And the spirit world has become yet another arena in which the shameful chapters in American history, including slavery and the genocide of the indigenous American people, are addressed and relitigated. Uncomfortable truths, buried secrets, disputed accounts. Ghost stories arise out of the shadowlands, a response to the ambiguous and the poorly understood that is one paragraph of such a rich text in Ghostland, every paragraph it does not miss. And it like, really, really ignited my passion for telling these stories because, like, at first it was fun, it was gothy, it was everything that I could want as like, you know, like something to keep. It was a career that I would probably not get sick of, but, like, it feels important to me now.
- [57:06]
B
More responsibility in a sense.
- [57:08]
A
Like, oops, I fell into, like, something that I really care about. And like, this book is. Yeah. I carried around because it's like. Yeah. For lack of a better word, certainly. It's like my Bible.
- [57:18]
C
Yeah.
- [57:19]
A
Because it's very cool and it's a good reminder. Like, every Halloween I read it because I'm like, oh, if I'm feeling tired, if I don't want to get out into the chaos, I'm like, okay, we. We're doing something very cool and very fun. But yeah. Yeah.
- [57:31]
C
And meaningful.
- [57:31]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I have a question. This doesn't have to go on the podcast, but you mentioned last night that you're mentioned last night that. That you come from evangelical parents. Is that.
- [57:41]
A
Was that hyperbolic? I would mind this being on the podcast. Yeah.
- [57:45]
B
Okay.
- [57:46]
A
I. My father is an evangelical pastor.
- [57:49]
B
What?
- [57:50]
A
Yes. So I am full son of a preacher man. Okay. And like, this is like the exact place where a pastor's son would end up. Right. Well, actually. Well, now I'm a goth ghost tour guide in Salem. Like, here I am. But yeah, actually, I. I also feel very connected and confident in talking about Puritan history because I, before I made different choices in my life, was a biblical scholar. So I was like, training to be a Sunday school teacher. Now I'm here. And when I was very, very young, I aspired to do that, but I was always an inquisitive kid. So I was given the Christian Bible and told to study it. And. And I got into the history of it. I like this. As a very young child, I was questioning. I was questioning especially so much in the text. I must have been a nightmare in Sunday school because I was always drill my teachers about, can you explain why? Can you explain who? Can you explain? So that was the first text that I started picking apart. So it's like, we see he's going to become a historian or some teacher's nightmare somewhere. But I think that was the first thing that I started really interrogating and now I'm here. But it was a very predictable roots.
- [59:08]
B
Yeah, but I was wondering about that because, you know, I knew that would be obviously a conflict.
- [59:13]
A
You know, it's spicy, isn't it? Being like, I want to learn all about the devil, which is literally. I'm so felt like. I love the. This is a whole. This is a whole.
- [59:25]
B
That's like another podcast. That's right.
- [59:27]
A
Like Salem's obsession with Satanism, which is like, very interesting. To me, yeah.
- [59:33]
B
But it's also rooted in. In Christianity. Like, everything's rooted in the church maintaining power, especially over women and over. Exactly. So we know that already.
- [59:44]
C
I have a question. Riding off that, in here, living in Salem, do you have a lot of friends who are, like, into. Cause, you know, just walking down that main street, if we get off the witch trial thing and go to, like, the kitschy souvenir shops and everything, but then there's all these sh. Shops where the employees look like they're all witches. Coming from me, like, you know, older.
- [60:04]
A
Lady, all the employees are witches. Okay. I want to tell you, this is actually very cool. I'm excited to talk about this. We have the most witches per capita here in Salem than anywhere in the world. So we have every other person, even if they don't look like a witch. Your CVS checkout person is probably a witch. I will say I am very boring. I am not a witch, even though I look like I should be. Be one. But we have so many practitioners here and all of these small businesses. I'm a huge small business shopper, and I love living here. Because you were walking up and down Essex Street. So many cool, esoteric shops. They're all independent. They're all unique to Salem, and they're all run by. I don't want to generalize, but most of the shops are owned by just different witches who feel very passionate about sharing their brand of magic. And I say brand, but not in a. It is commercial, but it's also like, something I think is very cool is with every wave of feminism, we've seen an embrace of witches in mainstream culture. So in this wave of feminism, we're at a point where we're seeing crystals that are being sold in, like, Sephora gift bags. Right. It gets very commercial, too. But Salem, with the small businesses, I think people get attracted to magic and witchcraft. As a historian, this is like, what I am fascinated by. Magic, modern magic, 21st century magic is very eclectic in that, like, a lot. I'm not a witch, so I'm not speaking from my own positionality, but, like, magic is like what you make it. It's about your. It's very customizable in terms of, like, faiths. Right. Generally. So every single shop is going to have its own take. It's very, very cool. We have. I think it's so interesting because there's also a part in town where if you're. You exit our local goth clothing shop, die with your boots on, do a 360 in the parking lot, you will see, like, five churches. So we have a ton of. It's very. The dissonance is real. And also, a lot of the Christian churches that are here open their doors to everybody. It's like, it's a really fascinating town. And I just know that the judges of the witch trials are rolling in their graves because of how we have reclaimed the history. And I'm so happy. I am, again, not a witch myself, but, like, so many of my friends are. It's just a given. Like, they're. They're all here. If you're a witch, you. You should. It is a great place to live because you have all of your supplies right down the street. You have great community. Yeah.
- [62:35]
B
But also, I wanted to just give my cousin a plug, who is an actual witch. And she has a great shop. It's called New England Magic. And she's struggling right now. So please go get some stuff from this woman. She's amazing.
- [62:51]
C
She's very knowledgeable stuff.
- [62:52]
B
Yeah. And she really is. She's been a witch for quite some time. She studied under Laurie Cabot. Cabot. She's quite old now.
- [63:04]
C
Yeah. We wandered into one of those stories last night and, you know, it had everything.
- [63:09]
A
Yeah.
- [63:09]
C
Herbs and crystals and we had. We had a nice little time in there.
- [63:14]
A
Oh, yes.
- [63:14]
C
But, yeah. So, yeah. So you do have witchy friends.
- [63:18]
A
Yes, I do.
- [63:19]
C
Okay. Nice to know.
- [63:22]
A
So don't be mean to me.
- [63:23]
C
Don't know. Of course. Oh, yeah, yeah. You'll get a hex, not be mean on the Rama.
- [63:27]
B
Anyway, superstition runs deep rooted in all cultures. I'm wearing an eyeball, as you can see.
- [63:32]
A
Yes.
- [63:33]
B
You know, and every Christian has one of these eyeballs, which is, of course, pagan in itself, having this eyeball.
- [63:38]
C
But anyway, so, Sebastian, did you know we do a little pendulum reading at the end of this.
- [63:42]
A
I do know. And is it literally nicknamed Penji?
- [63:46]
C
Well, we just call her Penji. But then I lost. This is coming. This is. This is. Is a hot topic first. You're the first to hear because this is coming out on Wednesday show. I was in charge of Penji and then I had it in my pants pocket and then I threw them in the laundry and Penji is no more. So instead we're using my bird necklace, which we've used. We've used in the past when we haven't had pen on it.
- [64:09]
A
This is the real deal, Rachel. It's your own talisman, Rachel.
- [64:13]
C
And I was supposed to get. I was supposed to get iron. A pendulum here in Town. And now we might not have time, but I might have to just go get you the pendulum.
- [64:20]
B
My cousin, I wanted to go to her shop.
- [64:22]
C
New England Magic. Don't forget New England Magic. Okay, so are you up for doing a penji read?
- [64:27]
A
Yes. Does this have to be yes or no?
- [64:29]
C
It's yes or no. And you're gonna reveal the question. So something you're comfortable revealing. But first you're just gonna think the question, Then I'm gonna get the answer. But also, we always tell people, don't ask anything too deep. That's gonna make you sad of it.
- [64:40]
A
Oh, I got you. I'm gonna ask something. I.
- [64:43]
C
But just think it, though. Don't tell me first.
- [64:45]
A
I won't tell you.
- [64:46]
C
Okay. Tell me when you're ready.
- [64:48]
A
Yeah, I'm ready.
- [64:49]
C
Okay. Okay, here we go. Okay.
- [64:53]
A
I'm on tenter hooks.
- [64:55]
C
Okay. What did you get?
- [64:56]
B
I got a yes.
- [64:57]
A
Okay.
- [64:57]
C
I got a yes, too.
- [64:58]
A
I asked, is the lady in white Irish or Scottish? Oh, so there we go.
- [65:04]
C
Okay. So good. You know what's funny?
- [65:07]
B
Right away?
- [65:09]
A
Yes.
- [65:09]
C
The woman this morning asked about Giles, and because she said she heard different ages for him.
- [65:14]
A
Oh, my God.
- [65:15]
C
Then we got two different answers, right? So then she said, oh, well, you know what? He might not have known how old he really was, because people didn't know sometimes. So then I asked the Pengie. So it's funny. Both of you asked about, you know, figures of Santa.
- [65:28]
A
We talk about these people every day. I'm like, I feel like if we misrepresent them, I'm gonna get haunted so bad. I can't afford that. Right?
- [65:36]
C
Oh, my gosh. Well, this was awesome. Thank you so much.
- [65:39]
A
Thank you.
- [65:40]
B
Amazing Surprise.
- [65:41]
C
So again, then we're sitting here just to recap. Sebastian Crane Salem Night Tour. Go check it out and ask for Sebastian as your. I'm sure they're all great, but we loved Sebastian. So go take his tour. And thank you.
- [65:58]
A
Thank you so much for having me.
- [66:00]
B
Thank you.
- [66:03]
C
And you can find me on Instagram at Ray Dratch. That's R A E Dratch. And you can find Irene at irenebremis. That's B R E M I S Bremis. And thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me on this journey into the world of Woo woo. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Woo Woo with Rachel Dratch is a Q Code production executive produced by David Henning and Steve Wilson. Produced by Alexa Gabriel Ramirez Edited by Will Tendi.
- [66:44]
A
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