Work For Humans Podcast: “Leadership Beyond the Individual: Relation in the Space Between Us”

Host: Dart Lindsley
Guest: Jim Ferrell (Founder, Withy Leadership; Author, You and We)
Date: September 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode challenges traditional, individual-centric views of leadership by exploring the concept of “relation”—the living space between people. Dart Lindsley sits down with Jim Ferrell to discuss his paradigm-shifting book You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life, and Leadership. Together, they probe into foundational philosophical concepts from Martin Buber, examine how organizations thrive when connection is foregrounded over individual heroics, and unpack practical ways to move teams towards deeper integration and authentic human connection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Paradigm Shift: From Self to Between

• Foreground-Background Shift: Dart describes the book as a “fundamental paradigm shift” focusing not on individuals, but the often-overlooked “space between us.”
  • “We tend to focus on people as individuals. And this wants us to look much more at the space between individuals and relationships.” (03:00)
• Buber’s Influence: Jim cites a revelatory sentence from Martin Buber’s I and Thou, realizing that merely thinking about people—even positively—still traps us in our own heads (06:00–07:00).
  • “If all I’m doing is I’m thinking about you in my head, I might be thinking good thoughts about you in my head. It’s still in my head.” (05:34, Jim)

2. The Four Laws of Relation

• Law 1: All We See Is Relation
  • Everything is experienced in relation; nothing stands alone (10:00–11:00).
  • “There’s no self-sufficient something that’s there in and of itself. Everything is born of relation and is developing within the context of relation.” (08:54, Jim)
• Law 3: How We Interact Is Who We Are
  • Drawing on the wave/particle duality in physics, Jim argues that, as with light, our ‘nature’ shifts according to our interactions (12:00–15:00).
  • “Buber says there is no separate I. All there is is I in relation.” (13:41, Jim)
  • Personalities, even in different contexts (“airport Jim”) are shaped by relational settings (13:05).
• Law 4: We Progress by Uniting
  • Inspired by Teilhard de Chardin, progress arises not from sameness, but the compression and convergence of differences—like hydrogen and oxygen merging into water (21:55–26:00).
  • “Unity is not a call to sameness. It’s actually a call of differences coming together, but coming together in a way that they stay open to each other.” (25:41, Jim)
• On Ego and Narcissism:
  • The relational perspective doesn't erase self but counters ego-driven separateness (20:27–21:12).

3. Levels of Relation in Organizations

• From Division to Compounding:

  • Division: Individuals obstructing each other.

  • Subtraction: Resistance, but less intense than outright division.

  • Addition: Siloed, parallel work; not true synergy (27:30).

  • Multiplication: Collaboration—cooperation across boundaries.

  • Compounding: Full integration and connectivity—like a “team playing as one organism.” (00:03; 28:00–29:00)

  • Memorable Quote:
    “You see it on a soccer field … One organism filling in all the gaps, and that’s connectivity.” (00:14, Jim)

• Organizational Example:

  • Sales leaders at a major company move from handoffs (loss) to integrating and sharing credit/revenue, leading to deeper teamwork and organizational resilience (28:00–32:00).

4. Practical Guidance: How to Move Up the Scale of Connectedness

• Bridging Differences:

  • Moving from “breaking” or “blocking” to “bonding,” “bridging,” and “expanding” (34:10).
  • Practices involve system changes (structures, processes) and personal/interpersonal change (attitudes, behaviors).

• Buber’s “I-Thou” Encounter:

  • True relation isn’t in our heads; it’s in the mutual, lived “between.”
  • The German ‘du’ (D U) is the familiar, intimate “you”—something earned, not assumed (39:56).
  • “I can't decide that on my own, because it’s a relational thing. You have to offer me your du.” (40:42, Jim)

• Practices for Deeper Relation:

  • Horizontal Engagement: Foregrounding equality, not hierarchy (42:04).
  • Allowing Difference: Valuing space/difference as the fertile ground for newness.
  • Beholding, Not Just Seeing: Entering a state of wonder, openness, and surprise—being receptive to change in oneself (44:08–45:00).
    • “I behold...I’m being assaulted almost with wonder and surprise. So to be open to wonder and surprise...boots me out of my brain.” (44:42, Jim)
  • Openness to Being Changed: Entering interactions with a willingness for one’s own views and feelings to evolve.

5. Limitations and Tensions of Bridging

• Ethical Boundaries: Dart questions how far one should go in ‘bridging’ with people holding harmful or repugnant beliefs (47:50–48:00).
  • Jim responds with empathy and acknowledges the agonizing limitations we all feel. Notable practical example: Darryl Davis, who helped KKK members leave the Klan by being deeply open to understanding them without relinquishing his own values (49:00).
• Relational Impact in Families: Jim shares his experience with post-loss family rifts to illustrate how hidden divides can permeate even ‘ideal’ relationships, underscoring the perpetual need for authentic integration (55:21–57:00).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fundamental Shift:
  "If all I'm doing is I'm thinking about you in my head...it's still in me. And Buber is inviting us out of our heads...It's not just that. How do we get out of our heads? How do we get into the relationship between us in the immediate now? That's what Buber's work was primarily about, and I totally missed it." (05:48, Jim)

• On Leadership and Ego:
  “Ego shows up in a certain kind of a way. When I have put myself in the front of the room...But what I'm talking about here is not the obliteration of self. It's the understanding that there's not a separate self, it's I in relation.” (20:27, Jim)

• Sports Metaphor for Organizational Synergy:
  "It's one organism filling in all the gaps, and that's connectivity." (00:14; 29:00, Jim)

• On Relation vs. Relationships:
  “Relation is just this basic reality of we live in this relational fabric. It's just the way that it is.” (07:55, Jim)

• On Progress and Difference:
  "Unity is not a call to sameness. It's actually a call of differences coming together, but coming together in a way that they stay open to each other." (25:41, Jim)
  “If I went around, if I'm oxygen, I'm like, I think what needs to happen is every atom should be an oxygen atom. But there's going to be no water. No water.” (24:50, Jim)

• On Bridging Difficult Boundaries:
  “If I come in already with a position, with zero openness on any level, I'm inviting exactly the same thing from the other side. I will get how I'm showing up because it's relational.” (48:40, Jim)

• On the Challenge of Practice:
  "This is the sort of thing that takes practice. It's not something where you hear it once." (54:36, Dart)

Major Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:03 – Sports as metaphor for team relation and connectivity
• 07:55 – Introduction of the four laws of relation
• 12:04–15:24 – How interaction shapes identity: “How we interact is who we are”
• 21:48–26:34 – How organizations progress by uniting differences
• 28:00–32:18 – Organizational examples of integration and compounding
• 34:10–38:25 – Practical approaches to bridging, bonding, and expanding
• 39:56–42:04 – Buber’s ‘du’ and the mutual, non-hierarchical relation
• 44:08–45:42 – The practice of “beholding” and openness to surprise
• 47:50–50:45 – Limits of bridging across extreme differences
• 55:14–57:43 – What Jim's work does for him: Overcoming divides, personal reflections

Closing Reflections

Dart’s closing questions explore:

• What Jim “hires his work to do for him” (55:12–55:43): Uniting, overcoming divides, personal and collective authentic connection.
• The personal costs and rewards of relational leadership (57:45–59:03): "Everything feels like such a gift...even the hard stuff.”
• The role of autonomy and the difference between defining your work versus having it defined for you.

Resources:

• You and We by Jim Ferrell
• Withy Leadership: withy.com
• LinkedIn: Jim Ferrell

Takeaways

• True progress—in organizations and societies—emerges from authentic connection and integration across difference, not from enforcing sameness or merely managing individual parts.
• Leaders transform not by focusing only on their own mindset or on individuals, but by cultivating the relational fabric—the space between—that shapes everything.
• Beholding, allowing surprise, and being open to change are core to unlocking higher orders of collaboration and human flourishing.