Podcast Summary: The Business Case for Experience Design: A New Lens for Work

Podcast: Work For Humans
Host: Dart Lindsley
Guest: Mat Duerden, Chair of Experience Design & Management, BYU
Date: December 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores experience design as a critical business strategy rather than an “art” reserved for products or customer service. Host Dart Lindsley speaks with Mat Duerden—a thought leader in the field and author of Designing Experiences—about what it means to intentionally design work and organizational experiences, why shared experiences and reflection matter, and how companies can develop systems that create irresistible and transformative workplaces for both employees and customers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Experience Matters in Business

• Universal Relevance: Experience is fundamental to how we interact with the world, whether as customers, employees, or managers. Every touchpoint is an experience (03:25, 10:52).
  • "Regardless of what an organization does, all of that are countless numbers of experiences. And so I think businesses that have an experience lens or paradigm, the sandbox is a lot bigger to make improvements." — Mat Duerden (00:06)
• Beyond Customer Experience: Business leaders often overlook that not just consumers but also employees are co-experiencers in an organization (10:52).

2. Defining Experience and Experience Design

• Objective vs. Subjective: Experiences are both objective (shared context) and subjective (individual perception and reaction) (12:20).
  • "We’re having the same objective experience, but we’ll both walk away with a different story for our subjective reaction to this experience." — Mat Duerden (12:20)
• The Process: Design is about orchestrating (not just staging) experience elements to offer opportunities for co-creation and sustained engagement (15:12–19:38).
  • "If these are our building materials, as an experienced designer, we’re orchestrating how we use each of these elements..." — Mat Duerden (15:29)
• Experience Elements: Six key components—people, relationships, place, time, rules, objects, and blocking (movement/sequencing)—must be intentionally arranged (15:29).

3. Experience Design: Art, Science, or Business?

• Interdisciplinary Approach: Effective experience design draws from the arts (aesthetics), science (measurement and process), and business (feasibility and viability) (08:05).

4. Leisure as the Gold Standard

• Learning from Leisure: Leisure experiences, characterized by positive affect, perceived freedom, and intrinsic motivation, provide models for how all work experiences can be intentionally designed (05:09).
  • "If we want to learn how to design better work experiences, we need to actually look at people’s non-work experiences..." (06:54)

5. Co-Creation, Competency, and Reflection

• Active Participation: Memorable and transformative experiences depend on participant competencies—curiosity, reflection, storytelling—not just the designer’s intent (19:38–22:57).
  • "Because it’s co-created, the competencies that our participants have are equally as important." — Mat Duerden (19:38)
• Reflection: Reflection is crucial for converting memorable experiences into meaningful and transformative ones (41:09–44:20).

6. Shared Experiences and Connection

• Community Formation: Shared struggle or hardship deepens connection and increases the memorability and transformative power of experiences (33:16, 36:38).
  • "I am super interested in shared experiences. I think that’s how we’re hardwired as humans..." — Mat Duerden (34:09)
• Intentional Friction: Designing intentional obstacles can promote interaction, learning, and belonging (36:48, 38:16).

7. Memory, Meaning, Storytelling

• Types of Memory: Some memories are explicit, some are implicit, affecting how we feel about places or brands (38:34–44:20).
• Stories Shape Perception: The stories we tell ourselves become the frameworks for interpreting and embedding experience (44:20–45:12).

8. Business Strategy x Experience Design

• Experience Playbooks: Organizations need systematic experience guidelines in parallel to brand style guides to ensure coherence across all touchpoints (47:12).
  • "Brands should also have an experience guide... regardless of the channel through which I interact with a brand, it feels like the experience is the same." — Mat Duerden (47:12)
• Reverse Engineering: Businesses should start with the question: "What do you want people to say after this experience?" and design backwards from that (49:40).
• Durability of Experience Investment: Durable systems, not just one-off “pop-up” events, generate lasting value (54:52–59:22).

9. Organizational and Workspace Design

• Intentional Structures: Workspace and service systems should be designed to facilitate both focus and serendipitous interaction to support deep work and community (57:21–59:22).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Orchestration:
  "We’re orchestrating... so we have this palette that we’re designing with as experienced designers, and when we recognize what those elements are, we can think about, okay, how do I orchestrate an experience scape..." — Mat Duerden (15:29)
• On Transformative Experiences:
  "There’s always some degree of struggle in transformation... what they’ve learned through the struggle and process has changed them." — Mat Duerden (32:11)
• On Intentional Friction:
  "My friend Lais Gluck... talks about designing for intentional friction. And I think that’s a really important thing... It’s not just about making everything easier." — Mat Duerden (36:48)
• On Reflection:
  "If we can develop that ability to be better reflectors, I think our memories are more accessible to us." — Mat Duerden (41:09)
• On Experience Guidebooks:
  "Brands should also have an experience guide... regardless of the channel through which I interact with a brand, it feels like the experience is the same." — Mat Duerden (47:12)
• On Durable Investments:
  "What are the durable experiences that are structured and are going to occur over time that are influencing the work product?" — Mat Duerden (57:20)
• On Time and Experience:
  "Joe and Jim were the first to say this. So service is time well saved. Experience is time well spent. Transformations, time well invested." — Mat Duerden (65:12)
• On Autonomy and Curiosity:
  "The primary job that I hire my job to do is to keep me curious about the world." — Mat Duerden (62:53) "Autonomy is like spices... if we have too much, it doesn’t work. But if we have the right ratios and right balance, it can be a beautiful thing." — Mat Duerden (66:48)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:06 – Why business leaders should care about experience
• 03:25 – Experience design at BYU; the discipline’s rarity
• 05:09 – Leisure studies as the model for experience design
• 08:05 – Experience design as art, science, and business
• 10:52 – Experience is the fabric of all organizational functioning
• 12:20 – Defining experience: Objective vs. subjective
• 15:13 – Why "orchestrate" is the operative word
• 19:38 – The co-creator’s role and experiential competencies
• 22:57 – Experience intelligence: Designing and engaging in experiences
• 26:22 – Definition of transformative learning
• 28:38 – How a Bach cello concerto is like a river rafting trip
• 32:11 – The role of struggle in transformative experiences
• 34:09 – The power of shared experiences
• 36:48 – Designing for intentional friction
• 41:09 – Types of memory and their imprint on places and brands
• 44:20 – How stories mediate experience
• 47:12 – Building strategic experience "playbooks" or guides
• 49:40 – The Color Run: Reverse engineering experience outcomes
• 54:52 – Durability and investment in experience systems
• 59:22 – Workspace design: Social and focused zones
• 62:53 – Mat Duerden on the job he hires his job to do
• 65:12 – The difference between service, experience, and transformation
• 66:48 – Autonomy as the spice of work

Additional Resources

• Mat Duerden’s LinkedIn and website: mattduerden.com
• Book: Designing Experiences by Mat Duerden & Bob Rossman
• Recommended reading: Joe Pine’s The Transformation Economy

Tone & Language:
The discussion is thoughtful, accessible, and filled with illustrative analogies and stories, reflecting the curiosity and practical orientation of both the host and guest.

Useful Takeaways for Listeners:

• Business experience design is not just about making things pleasant or efficient—it’s about shaping memorable, meaningful, and transformative touchpoints for both customers and employees.
• Organizations benefit from systematic, durable investments in experience infrastructure, not just pop-up or one-off events.
• Reflection, storytelling, and shared struggle can turn even difficult moments into assets for personal and cultural transformation.
• Viewing work as “experience” can open up new possibilities for business, HR, and customer experience leaders alike.

For further exploration or to connect with the guest, visit:
mattduerden.com (M-A-T, D-U-E-R-D-E-N)
LinkedIn: Mat Duerden

This summary skips introductory/outro segments and advertisements, focusing solely on the substantive content of the episode.