Podcast Summary:

Work For Humans
Episode: The Toxicity We Tolerate at Work | Catherine Mattice
Host: Dart Lindsley
Guest: Catherine Mattice (founder, Civility Partners; author, Navigating a Toxic Workplace for Dummies)
Date: February 24, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores workplace toxicity: how it emerges, why organizations tolerate it, and practical strategies for healing and prevention. Dart Lindsley sits down with Catherine Mattice, a hands-on consultant specializing in resolving toxic work cultures. Together, they cover the subtle and overt forms of toxic behavior, the roles of ambiguity and leadership, and the crucial part managers, HR, and individuals play in either perpetuating or resolving toxicity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Toxicity at Work

• Toxic behaviors are broader than just harassment or legal violations; they include incivility, microaggression, sarcasm, neglect, and unresolved conflict.

• Toxicity exists on a spectrum—at the low end are eye-rolling, sarcasm, or subtle exclusions. If unaddressed, these escalate to bullying and harassment.

• “Toxicity is any behavior that's disrupting a team's functioning or causing harm.” (Catherine, 08:20)

  "Most toxicity at work is a lot quieter than that. It shows up as sarcasm, neglect, unresolved conflict, and a grinding erosion of trust."
  — Dart Lindsley, [00:58]

2. Culture and Its Role in Toxicity

• Culture is not abstract; it's the shared, daily expectations and behaviors within an organization.

• Ambiguity in roles, processes, and behaviors is a breeding ground for toxicity.

  "Culture lives in the everyday interactions of the workforce. It's how people behave based on what they believe will be tolerated or even rewarded."
  — Catherine, [10:47]

• OIL Model: Organization-wide behaviors, Individual behavior, and Leadership/management all interplay in defining culture.

3. Causes and Amplifiers

• Ambiguity creates frustration, survivalist behavior, and opens the door for bullies to thrive.

  "Ambiguity creates frustration, and human nature is to have expectations and have those be met ... people start to kind of survival of the fittest, start eating each other."
  — Catherine, [00:04] / [14:17]

• Neglect from leadership or lack of operational clarity often results in distrust and conflict during and after stressful incidents (ex: strikes, mergers).

• When managers or HR do not address low-level toxic behaviors, "reservoirs of resentment" build up, making problems much worse later.

4. Addressing Toxicity: Methods & Stories

Firefighting Organizational Toxicity

• Catherine describes interventions involving:
  • Listening sessions—to surface hidden grievances and begin trust-building ([17:55]).
  • Shared reports—transparency in findings to both leadership and rank-and-file.
  • Ongoing dialogue—structure for continued feedback between leadership and employee representatives.
• Case example: A hospitality organization post-strike faced resentment and cultural rifts. Through assessment and leadership coaching, they began operationalizing desired cultural traits, adjusted onboarding/interviewing, and started rebuilding trust.

Humor, Culture, and Boundaries

• Not all candid or “rough-edged” humor is toxic, but it must not cross into humiliation.

  “Humor is great, but if it starts to blend into somebody being humiliated because an entire room of people's poking fun at something, that person needs to feel comfortable to come back and talk to somebody about it and say, ‘yesterday in that meeting, I felt really humiliated.’”
  — Catherine, [25:56]

"Bad Actors" as a Cause

• Some toxicity stems from abrasive leaders—usually high performers intolerant of perceived incompetence.
• Such individuals are often unaware of their impact until confronted with structured feedback (e.g., 360 interviews).

  "Because these people are not psychopaths, most of the time, they are often very appalled. They had no idea that this is how badly they were seen, and they very much are interested in change."
  — Catherine, [38:33]

5. The Roles of HR, Leaders, and Managers

• HR: Often held back by a lack of authority or support from leadership. 75% of HR is female; the lack of power ties into broader systemic inequities ([44:27]).

  “HR professionals ... very much wanted to make it better ... It was because I couldn't get permission from the leader to address this problem.”
  — Catherine, [40:52]

• Managers: Underestimated as culture drivers. Their "superpower" is creating psychologically safe spaces, directly addressing bad behavior, and proactively building good day-to-day culture ([50:53]).
• Responsibility: CEO clarifies culture, HR implements processes, managers shape team experience, and individuals must also promote positive interaction.

6. Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up

• Most toxicity flows top-down (80%), but solutions must be both top-down and bottom-up. Everyone holds responsibility for the immediate circle around them ([52:43]).

7. Recognizing and Responding to Toxicity

• Listening to your gut: If you dread going to work or toward a coworker, it's a red flag ([47:27]).
• Compare company values against actual behaviors.
• Privilege plays a role: Those with more security (demographic, professional) may feel safer speaking out. HR’s real power depends on executive support ([43:30]; [44:27]).
• Collective voice: Problems are harder to ignore when surfaced by groups.

8. Replacing—Not Just Stopping—Toxicity

• Simply halting bad behavior isn’t enough; it must be replaced by intentional practices of civility and proactive respect.

  “You can’t teach people nothing. What happens when you leave? … And I said, civility.”
  — Catherine, [57:41]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Toxicity is any behavior that's disrupting a team's functioning or causing harm." (Catherine, [08:20])
• "Reservoirs of resentment … build up. Things get worse." (Dart, [09:47])
• "Ambiguity is actually a really big predictor of workplace bullying." (Catherine, [14:01])
• "Humor is a great way for humans to connect… but if it starts to blend into humiliation, you need to feel comfortable to speak up." (Catherine, [25:56])
• "Managers are way undertrained on how to create culture within their team..." (Catherine, [50:39])
• "Culture exists within each of our individual behavior. Nobody should be waiting around for leaders to do something..." (Catherine, [52:51])
• "It needs to be replaced by something else. Civility – hence the name Civility Partners." (Catherine, [56:26])
• "If your gut feels that you're in a toxic work environment, if you dread going to work ... there's something worth exploring." (Catherine, [47:27])

Important Timestamps

• Intro & motivation behind Catherine’s career: [04:31]
• Practical definition of toxicity and culture: [08:20] – [10:47]
• Ambiguity as a seed for toxicity: [14:01] – [14:17]
• Case study: Company post-strike and culture repair: [15:51] – [20:55]
• Humor, boundaries, and permissiveness: [24:07] – [28:39]
• Team-to-team toxicity and the role of silos: [29:43] – [32:23]
• Change management and lack thereof fueling toxicity: [32:52] – [34:15]
• Bad actors: coaching abrasive leaders: [34:38] – [39:06]
• HR’s limits; privilege and speaking up: [39:06] – [44:27]
• Recognizing toxicity as an employee: [47:12] – [49:30]
• Responsibility for cleanup; managers’ superpower: [49:41] – [52:37]
• Top-down vs. bottom-up approaches: [52:43] – [54:18]
• Replacing toxicity with civility: [56:26]
• Catherine’s personal motivation and costs: [58:46] – [61:05]

Flow & Tone

• The conversation is pragmatic, warm, and hopeful—grounded in on-the-ground problem-solving rather than abstract theory.
• Catherine balances realism (“It's hard, but I love it” [06:47]) with optimism and actionable advice.
• Dart brings a candid, reflective perspective, tying in personal and previous guest experiences, and keeps focus on tangible examples and operational solutions.

In Summary

The episode dissects the quiet and insidious nature of most workplace toxicity, emphasizing that it is often tolerated for the sake of high individual performance or due to systemic neglect and ambiguity. Catherine Mattice brings both compassion and rigor, advocating for proactive, practical steps—especially by managers and HR—to replace toxicity with operational civility, underpinned by clear expectations, open communication, and ongoing feedback.

For listeners: If your gut says something's wrong at work—or you witness daily low-level negativity—don’t ignore it. Addressing and preventing toxic environments is everyone’s responsibility, from the C-suite to the newest hire. Making civility operational is the route to healthier workplace cultures.

To connect with Catherine Mattice or learn more:

• CivilityPartners.com
• Her book: Navigating a Toxic Workplace for Dummies
• LinkedIn: Catherine Mattice
• Keynote speaking: katherinemattice.com