Podcast Summary: "What Classrooms Reveal About Designing Better Work"

Work For Humans with Dart Lindsley
Guest: Dr. Peter Liljedahl
Release Date: February 3, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Dart Lindsley speaks with Dr. Peter Liljedahl—mathematics educator, researcher, and author of Building Thinking Classrooms—about the deep assumptions embedded in the design of both classrooms and workplaces. Liljedahl recounts his multi-year journey challenging conventional classroom norms, revealing how such transformations lead not just to better student thinking, but to full engagement and collaboration. Lindsley and Liljedahl explore the clear parallels between "studenting" and “workering”—how performative norms in classrooms and offices limit true engagement, creativity, and learning. The discussion is rich in insights relevant for designing better work—where employees and companies can both thrive.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem: Classroom (and Workplace) Norms Inhibit Thinking

[00:03 - 07:43]

• Liljedahl shares his initial research, noting that "80% of students were doing virtually no thinking," and of the 20% who were, it was "only for 20% of the time."
• He identifies a concept called “studenting”—a performative set of behaviors students use to comply or appear engaged, most of which aren't true thinking or learning.
• Lindsley parallels this to “workering” in offices and “managering” among leaders—where performative compliance overrides genuine engagement.

Quote:

"Studenting is what students do in a learning situation, some of which is learning. But a vast majority of what I saw was not thinking; it was gaming the system, groveling for marks, or finding ways to go unnoticed."
— Liljedahl (06:00)

2. Challenging Every Assumption

[13:39 - 19:13]

• Liljedahl outlines his radical research method: remove every classroom convention and only reintroduce it if it increases thinking. This covered everything from furniture placement to group formation, homework, and note-taking.

• He shares, “I tore down the institutionally normative structures of classrooms and then built it back up, always with the research lens: If I add this, is it going to increase thinking?”
  [00:03 & 13:51]

• Highlights the need to ask: "Is this good for thinking?" instead of "Is this good?"

3. Dramatic Changes: Vertical Surfaces, Standing, and Randomized Groups

[21:52 - 35:32]

• One breakthrough was having students stand and work on vertical, non-permanent surfaces (whiteboards, windows, etc.) in randomly-assigned groups of three, using only one marker per group.
• Standing and vertical surfaces increase visibility, engagement, and collaboration while reducing the risk of "anonymity-induced disengagement."
• Randomizing groups often leads to rapid community formation and empathy, shifting the culture toward real collaboration.

Quote:

"Students were more engaged, they would stay engaged for longer, we had more students thinking... The smartest person in the room is the room."
— Liljedahl (27:19 & 34:02)

4. Systems, Risk, and Psychological Safety

[19:13 - 39:29]

• Explains through Systems Theory why most institutional structures resist change; sometimes, only overwhelming force (like removing all furniture) can reset a system.
• Emphasizes the critical role of psychological safety and reducing the risk of imperfection as drivers of engagement and learning.

Quote:

"When students are in a space where they perceive the teacher expects perfection, they don’t feel safe to think. Thinking is messy… what is the space telling you, not just what the teacher says?"
— Liljedahl (37:34)

5. The Teacher/Manager’s Role: Defronting and Decentering Power

[39:29 - 43:24]

• The classroom analogy for workplace hierarchy: traditionally, both place someone at the “front” as knowledge-keeper and controller.
• In a thinking classroom, the teacher becomes a knowledge mobilizer—supporting from the side, focusing on creating environments for discovery.

Quote:

"You have to create the environment where knowledge can be discovered and mobilized… It’s more like gardening or farming than building. How can I create learning without leaving the footprints of teaching?"
— Liljedahl (40:21 & 42:29)

6. Measuring What Matters: Evaluation and Grading Norms

[43:57 - 48:41]

• Evaluation shapes what learners/employees focus on. If collaboration and risk-taking are valued, assessments must measure those—often through co-developed rubrics and self/peer evaluation.
• Lindsley points out that most employee evaluations mirror school—measuring individual productivity and the “performance” of a job, focusing too little on collaboration.

Quote:

"When we evaluate our students, they evaluate us. Because what we choose to evaluate tells them what we value."
— Liljedahl (43:57)

7. Aha Moments, Creativity, and Burstiness

[50:38 - 58:26]

• Liljedahl’s PhD research into “aha” moments in mathematics revealed these are primarily affective (emotional) experiences, not merely cognitive.
• He likens bursts of group creativity—seen in the best classrooms and workplaces—to “burstiness” in organizational psychology. Key conditions: structure with flexibility, diversity, psychological safety, and focus.

Quote:

"The aha experience is, above all, an affective experience… In collaborative settings, burstiness occurs when ideas pile on and everyone’s contributing in a highly productive way."
— Liljedahl (51:52 & 54:30)

8. Designing Good Tasks and Work

[58:26 - 60:24]

• Good tasks (including workplace puzzles) should have a low floor (accessible to all), high ceiling (challenging as you go), and novelty to spark real thinking.
• The most effective “work” and learning emerges from open-ended or open-middle challenges.

9. Lessons in Change and Paradigm Shift

[60:24 - 64:11]

• Liljedahl reflects on leading a paradigm shift in mathematics education—noting that cultural change requires addressing core structural assumptions, not just tweaking around the edges.

Quote:

"We’ve been trying to enact change inside of an environment that isn’t changing. When students walk into an environment that looks like every other, they bring their studenting habits with them… What if we rethink how the classroom looks and operates?"
— Liljedahl (62:30)

10. Parallels for Work Design

[64:11 - end]

• Lindsley draws the parallel to business: real change in work design comes from addressing power dynamics and core structures, not just surface-level improvements.
• Creating workplaces (and schools) where people genuinely think, feel ownership, and collaborate deeply, depends on the very bones of the organization.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The smartest person in the room is the room." (34:02) — Liljedahl
• "Standing up amplified the gestures… Standing is an easier gesture space than sitting is." (27:19) — Liljedahl
• "We have to stop asking if what we’re doing is good, and start asking, what is it good for?" (17:24) — Liljedahl
• "Risk turns out to be a barrier to thinking... the surface itself [whiteboard] is saying, we're expecting you to make mistakes." (28:01) — Liljedahl
• "Being in a thinking classroom is about: how can I create learning without leaving footprints of teaching?" (42:29) — Liljedahl
• "When we evaluate our students, they evaluate us. What we choose to evaluate tells them what we value." (43:57) — Liljedahl
• "What makes a good task? Easy entry, evolving complexity, and novelty…" (59:01) — Liljedahl

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:03 – 07:43] Reality of low-thinking in classrooms; “studenting” and its parallels in work.
• [13:39 – 19:13] Methodology: Questioning every classroom norm from scratch.
• [21:52 – 35:32] Standing, vertical surfaces, and randomized groups; furniture experiments.
• [37:34 – 39:29] Environment and the implicit expectations it creates.
• [40:21 – 43:24] Teacher/manager role shifts—supporting versus controlling.
• [43:57 – 48:41] Rethinking evaluation and measurement.
• [50:38 – 58:26] Aha moments, group creativity, burstiness.
• [58:26 – 60:24] Elements of good, thinking-oriented tasks and work.
• [60:24 – 64:11] Lessons learned leading a paradigm shift in classrooms.
• [64:11 – end] Parallels for work design; changing power dynamics and structure.

Resources

• Peter Liljedahl’s book: [Building Thinking Classrooms in Mathematics]
• Website: [buildingthinkingclassrooms.com]
• Facebook Groups: Search for “Building Thinking Classrooms” for numerous practitioner-led groups.

Bottom Line

This thought-provoking episode draws clear, actionable lessons for anyone designing or reimagining work. Real change—whether in a classroom or a company—means surfacing and challenging deep assumptions, prioritizing engagement and real thinking, and ensuring our structures, spaces, and measurements align with what we truly value. The lessons of the “thinking classroom” could point the way for a future of “thinking workplaces” that inspire, rather than just extract, the best from every person.