Work For Grown-Ups: Escaping Parent-Child Leadership Dynamics at Work

Podcast: Work For Humans
Host: Dart Lindsley
Guest: Sammy Burt
Date: January 7, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores how modern workplaces often unintentionally mirror parent-child dynamics, limiting autonomy and stifling innovation. Host Dart Lindsley is joined by Sammy Burt—facilitator, systems coach, leadership consultant, and author of the upcoming book What Is a Grown Up Anyway?—to discuss what it truly means to design workplaces for grown-ups. Their conversation moves from early experiences with “grown upness” to organizational cultures, the impacts of agency and trust, and practical frameworks for shifting from paternalistic to adult-adult relationships at work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Parent-Child Paradigm in Organizations

• Sammy sets the stage ([00:03]):

  • Many organizations operate from a parent-child model: leaders dictate behavior, hours, attire, and even breaks, assuming they “know best.”
  • Quote:

    “We are demanding accountability from people, having given them no agency or autonomy to feel like they own the thing that you’re now holding them accountable for.”
    (Sammy Burt, 00:38)

• Dart underlines the problem ([00:45]):

  • Parenting employees leads to undermined trust and blocked innovation.
  • Reference to Spotify’s statement: “Our employees are not children. Spotify will continue working remotely.” ([02:32])

2. Distinction Between Adult and Grown-Up

• Sammy’s quest for grown-upness ([03:21]):

  • Started from feeling like she never truly “felt like a grown-up,” even as she tried to perform grown-upness.
  • Early behaviors seeking validation from adults, not peers ([04:19]).

• Adult vs. Grown-Up ([07:55], [08:38]):

  • Adult: Defined externally—by law, culture, or biological milestones (driving, drinking age, etc.).
  • Grown-Up: Defined internally—by mindset, qualities, and how one shows up in the world.
  • Quote:

    “What started to come through for me was that when I spoke to people about being grown up, they talked much more about qualities, how they experienced themselves or other people, as opposed to what they were allowed to do.”
    (Sammy Burt, 11:07)

3. Kids’ Perspective on Grown-Ups

• Children see being grown-up as not just privileges but burdens—responsibilities, paying taxes, fixing cars ([11:52]).

• Memorable anecdote:

  “I asked, when was a time when you didn’t think a grownup was acting like a grownup? And one kid wrote, when my dad shouted at the woman in the post office and it wasn’t her fault.”
  (Sammy Burt, 12:24)

• Grown-up as “a kid who got older—but hopefully like wine, not bananas!” ([13:13])

4. The Performance of Grown-Upness and Imposter Syndrome

• Grown-Up as Performance ([07:41]):

  • It’s often about being perceived as such.
  • Quote:

    “To be a grown up was based on others’ perception of me. And I would be able to measure that by how much trust was given to me or responsibilities…it was very performative.”
    (Sammy Burt, 07:41)

• Imposter Syndrome Reframed ([16:58]):

  • The phrase may miss the environmental dynamics that create self-doubt.
  • Quote:

    “If we call that imposter syndrome, we put the onus on the individual to feel differently as opposed to on the environment to say, how do we help anyone belong here?”
    (Sammy Burt, 18:39)

5. Culture, Stereotypes, and Belonging

• Societal norms (e.g., girls dropping team sports) shape how grown-upness is performed ([16:58]).
• Real grown-upness is about conscious authenticity and comfort with one’s whole self, not rigid roles ([19:26]).
• Dart’s reference:
  “Design for Belonging” by Susie Wise—belonging is an environmental attribute, not a personal flaw ([19:10]).

6. Transactional Analysis & Leadership Archetypes

• Overview of Transactional Analysis ([21:59]):
  • Three states: Parent, Child, and Adult (Eric Berne’s model).
  • Many organizations are “parent-child” or have shifted to “parent-adolescent”—giving some autonomy but still setting controlling boundaries.
  • Quote:

    “We are demanding accountability from people, having given them no agency or autonomy…”
    (Sammy Burt, 23:44)

7. Scandinavian Work Culture & Motivation

• Comparison of Swedish (adult-to-adult) vs. UK (parental) management—trust, autonomy, and incentive structures ([24:10]).
• Financial rewards may motivate simple tasks but fail to inspire or sustain complex, creative work ([25:40]).
• Quote:

  “Monetary incentives change behavior. They work. They just don’t work the way you want them to.”
  (Dart Lindsley, 25:54)

8. Toward Grown-Up Relationships at Work

• Striving for “grown-up” (adult to adult) relationships—mutual trust, candid communication, recognizing humanity regardless of hierarchy ([26:07], [26:23]).
• Quote:

  “The reality is we just sit down as two human beings trying to get a thing done well and we have a conversation that makes that happen. That’s a little utopian, but it’s my hope.”
  (Sammy Burt, 26:23)

9. Joy at Work and Trust

• Joy isn’t just happiness but a deep sense of trust, agency, and belonging ([27:06]).
• Unlocking joy at work: being trusted, mistakes are seen as human, and feedback is constructive and safe ([28:21]).
• Quote:

  “It was about walking through the door. And the guys that ran the company…made a choice not to wait to trust me, but to trust the person they’d hired and to wait for me to let them down. That was an attitude that was then part of the culture.”
  (Sammy Burt, 28:21)

10. Development and The Role of Grief, Discomfort, and Challenge

• Growth happens in the stretch outside comfort; heat and challenge (even grief) are necessary for development ([33:14]).
• Quote:

  “There are rites of passage that people go through…in order for us to take that next leap of maturity…there’s likely been some discomfort, there’s likely been some heat.”
  (Sammy Burt, 34:10)

11. Innovation, Playfulness, and Psychological Safety

• Playfulness and childlike behavior (not childishness) are important for innovation ([35:29]).
• Psychological safety, where it’s safe to fail, is the real foundation for creativity—playfulness signals this safety ([36:51]).

12. Frameworks for Adult Development

• Bob Kegan’s “vertical development” and “self-authoring mind” ([37:21])—adults can collect new ways of being, advancing but not discarding past stages.
• True grown-upness is having awareness of one’s choices and pausing to consciously select how to act ([40:31], [43:21]).
• Quote:

  “I can choose to pause and say Dart, I don’t know the answer to that question. That’s a conscious choice available to me.”
  (Sammy Burt, 41:35)

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Company Culture

“If your culture is such that people are already well remunerated, then why do you need to offer them a bonus to perform better?”
(Sammy Burt, 24:23)

On Autonomy and Accountability

“We are demanding accountability from people, having given them no agency or autonomy to feel like they own the thing…”
(Sammy Burt, 23:44)

On Belonging

“It is not an attribute of the people, it is an attribute of the environment.”
(Dart Lindsley, 19:17)

On Joy at Work

“Having that trust in place and that belief that other people see who I am and that’s good enough, allows me to perpetuate that.”
(Sammy Burt, 29:53)

On Innovation and Safety

“What we’re really talking about is an environment that is safe to fail in. That’s what we’re talking about.”
(Sammy Burt, 36:38)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Organizational Parent-Child Model: 00:03–00:38
• Spotify’s Statement and the Adult/Grown-Up distinction: 02:32–08:38
• Transactional Analysis and Organizational Implications: 21:59–23:56
• Scandinavian Culture and Motivation: 24:10–25:54
• Joy at Work—Trust and Agency: 27:06–29:53
• Heat and Growth/Role of Grief: 33:14–34:10
• Innovation, Playfulness, and Psychological Safety: 35:29–36:51
• Vertical Development Models: 37:21–43:21

Conclusion

Sammy Burt and Dart Lindsley advocate for a new vision of the workplace: one designed for grown-ups, where rules and roles are not reminders of inferiority but invitations to agency, trust, and collaborative adult-to-adult relationships. Unpacking legal, cultural, psychological, and practical theories, they illuminate a path beyond performance and compliance—toward real autonomy, growth, and joy at work.

Learn More

• Sammy Burt on LinkedIn
• farleyperformance.com for updates on her book, What Is a Grown Up Anyway?

For anyone seeking to build or join an organization where people are treated—and treat each other—as capable, creative adults, this episode is essential listening.