Podcast Summary

Podcast: Work For Humans
Host: Dart Lindsley
Guest: Bree Groff
Episode: Work Should Be Fun, Not Just Productive
Date: August 5, 2025

Overview:

This episode features Bree Groff, a transformation expert and author of Today Was Fun, challenging the deeply rooted notion that work is necessarily serious or a grind. Instead, she argues that not only can work be fun—fun itself should be a critical measure of workplace success, both for organizational health and human fulfillment. The conversation explores why “struggle equals greatness” is a harmful myth, the limits of purpose and productivity narratives, and the practical steps leaders and workers can take to reclaim joy in their daily work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fun vs. Purpose and Output (00:03–10:35)

• Fun over struggle: Bree Groff critiques how organizational purpose can be weaponized to justify burnout:

  “I think it elevates the output of a business above the employee’s experience.... Customers bring a share of wallet, but employees bring a grand portion of their lives.” (00:03, Bree Groff)

• Fun as a workplace metric: Bree proposes measuring laughter—the actual moments of enjoyment—as a valid KPI.
• Origin story: Bree’s upbringing with parents who enjoyed their work shaped her core belief: most work, most days, should be fun, not endured.
• Contrast with consulting: She recounts how, in business consulting, she saw widespread disengagement and people “wishing away their days” (05:57).

2. Why "Fun," Not "Joy" or "Fulfillment" (07:01–10:35)

• Accessibility of fun: Bree selected the word ‘fun’ because it’s instantly relatable and tangible, unlike lofty, abstract terms like "purpose" or "fulfillment":

  “It is accessible. It is visceral, childlike in many ways. …You can usually tell if you’re having fun.” (07:27, Bree Groff)

• Hijacking of lofty values: Words like ‘purpose’ and ‘meaning’ are often co-opted to rationalize unhealthy work cultures.

3. Re-examining the JFK and the Janitor Story (10:35–15:29)

• Myth-busting “purpose” narratives: Bree questions the value placed on “purpose-driven” stories that imply only grand achievements matter, insisting that pride in everyday, “human-scaled impact” is just as important.

  “That story… sends the message that our work is only worthwhile... if we can connect them to a milestone of humanity. …It’s actually really important to have janitors… because… it’s nice for [others] to have clean floors.” (11:24, Bree Groff)

• Finding joy in everyday tasks: Dart shares his own experience of finding fun in janitorial work, highlighting how simple pleasures—like vacuum patterns—can be meaningful.

4. Workplace Fun: An Existential Mandate (15:29–21:33)

• Beyond the business case: While “happy people are good for business” is established, Bree insists this isn’t the true point:

  “Low engagement is not a business issue. It’s an existential issue... when people are wishing away their weeks, [that’s] a fundamental problem with how we have set up work.” (16:38, Bree Groff)

• Rest for its own sake: She rails against seeing rest as merely a tool to boost productivity:

  “Rest is good because we’re human beings. …It’s just fucking nice to wake up after a nap.” (17:38, Bree Groff)

• Moral imperative: Dart draws on Kant’s philosophy—employees must be recognized as ends in themselves.

5. What Makes Work Fun? (20:04–24:27)

• Fun rhythms: For Bree, a fun day is “good laughs with good people” (20:14).
• Shared struggle: Fun at work is enriched by camaraderie and collective action—“shoveling shit is fun if it’s with the right people” (21:33).
• Work is fundamentally good: Dart and Bree agree that participating in building and growing something together is inherently joyful.

6. The Fun “Funnel”: Can Every Job Be Fun? (25:01–27:40)

• Testing ‘funnability’: Bree notes that not all jobs, organizations, or setups are a fit for everyone, and the absence of fun over extended periods is a sign to make a change.
• Fun vs. Satisfaction: Bree distinguishes between fleeting fun and smoldering satisfaction:

  “Often satisfaction is... a prerequisite for the fun. …But I want satisfaction and I want to be laughing most days.” (27:40, Bree Groff)

7. Barriers to Fun and Joy at Work (30:32–37:11)

• Professionalism as a buzzkill: Bree discusses how rigid ideas about professionalism can stifle authenticity and enjoyment, leading people to wear “business masks” (33:13).
• Performative work: The focus on projecting professionalism—through attire, language, unnecessary meetings, slide decks—detracts from genuine value creation and creativity.

8. Cozy Teams & Generosity (44:39–49:54)

• Cozy teams: The metaphor of “cozy teams” is used to describe groups with high trust and psychological safety, enabling true collaboration even amid chaos.
• Treating people as high performers: Assuming team members want to contribute and do their best creates a flywheel of generosity and trust.

  “If some amount of effort is not going to meaningfully improve the value to the client, I want that team member to go take a nap.” (45:51, Bree Groff)

• Game theory & trust: Bree references “tit for tat”—start with generosity to set the tone.

9. Straight Talk and Invitational Leadership (51:02–61:15)

• Shoot straight with love: Honest feedback should come from belief in each other’s best intentions, not from a place of defensiveness or control.
• Make the right thing the fun thing: Rather than enforcing compliance, leaders can design environments that naturally attract the best behaviors (e.g., improving the soccer field rather than building a fence).
• Return-to-office as a power issue: Mandates ignore the needs of high performers and erode trust.

10. Artistry, Impact, and Legacy (61:15–65:56)

• Why write the book? For Bree, the book is both a vehicle for impact—“to spread the word that work can be fun”—and a work of personal creative expression:

  “I felt like I had a book inside me knocking to get out.” (62:46, Bree Groff)

• Fun and greatness can coexist: Contrary to the ‘blood, sweat, and tears’ myth of authorship, Bree found writing the book itself fun—not a sacrifice.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Put [laughter] on your KPIs." – Bree Groff (00:53)
• "Most work, Most days should be fun." – Bree Groff (02:26)
• "Rest is good because we’re human beings. …It’s just fucking nice to wake up after a nap." – Bree Groff (17:38)
• "Customers bring a share of wallet, but employees bring a grand portion of their lives." – Bree Groff (00:22, repeated at 08:34)
• “Even shoveling shit is fun if it’s with the right people.” – Dart Lindsley, quoting Bree (21:33)
• “Work should be a source of joy because it’s fundamentally good.” – Dart Lindsley (24:27)
• "Professionalism is a buzzkill." – Dart Lindsley (30:32)
• "People having fun are fun for other people in the room." – Dart Lindsley (50:46)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Fun vs Struggle and Output | 00:03–05:57 | | Why “Fun” over “Joy”/Meaning | 07:01–10:35 | | The JFK Janitor Story Debunked | 10:35–15:29 | | Rest and Existential Purpose | 15:29–21:33 | | Fun in Teamwork and Camaraderie | 21:33–24:27 | | Job “Funnability” and Changing Jobs | 25:01–27:40 | | Fun vs Satisfaction | 27:40–30:32 | | Barriers: Professionalism & Performance | 30:32–37:11 | | Cozy Teams, Generosity, Flywheels | 44:39–49:54 | | “Shoot Straight with Love” & Invitational Power | 51:02–61:15 | | Why Bree Wrote the Book | 61:15–65:56 |

Conclusion

This episode puts forth a bold reframing of work—not as a grind pursued only for lofty output or business goals, but as a primary context of human life which can and should be, above all, fun. Through practical insights and deeply personal stories, Bree Groff and Dart Lindsley reveal how changing our assumptions about people, leadership, and culture can unlock true fulfillment. As Bree sums up:

"If every night [my daughter] can curl up in bed and say to herself, today was fun, then that’s a really good life. If we can all say that, then I think we’ve won." (64:31)

Find more at breegroff.com and order Today Was Fun wherever books are sold.