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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Sophia
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hi friends and listeners. I am absolutely elated today to be joined by someone that I look up to, learn from, am in awe of and honestly who gives me so much inspiration, such reminders to be courageous, and also often helps me give myself permission to be a little more patient with my life. Today's guest is Dr. Tama Bryant. She is a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist and minister who is leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas and overcoming stress and depression. And she manages to do it with an energy and a smile and a voice that makes everyone around her take a deep breath, lean in and feel seen. Dr. Tema is the author of the newly released book Matters of the Heart which aims to empower readers to connect with themselves and others, delving into topics like control issues, emotional unavailability, and relationships both with others and with ourselves. Her first book, Homecoming, came out in 2022 and I know so many of us needed it, loved it, cherished it. This book, Matters of the Heart, is absolutely beautiful. It draws on the wisdom of science and sacredness lived experience and helps readers tend to, as Dr. Tama calls it, the garden of their hearts. She encourages us to build our best relational lives because love is not a level playing field and improving your relationship with yourself is the first step in leveling the field and living a life that brings you joy. Let's dive in with Dr. Tama. Dr. Tama, I'm just elated to have you here and I sort of feel like my favorite first question to ask everyone goes a layer deeper because today I get to ask it of you. So much of your research helps us understand our connection to ourselves and when I sit with someone like yourself who has, you know, these lists of accolades and incredible, you know, books published and all of these things, I'm always curious if you could bend the space time continuum and sit across from yourself at 8 or 9 years old, if you would see the woman that you are today in that little girl.
- [03:20]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [03:21]
Sophia
And I think I'm particularly thrilled to hear your answer because so much of what you're doing in the new book is helping us understand how the younger versions of ourselves affect who we are today. So all of that said, and no pressure, but I can't wait to hear how, how you would feel with your nine year old self.
- [03:46]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, I love that question. And to my 9 year old self, I would say something I commonly say today to clients, to mentees, to social media, and that is, you are worthy, you are worthy, you are worthy. There are so many messages that bombard us from very early on, especially as girls and as women, to feel insufficient, inadequate to feel that we have to be something we are not, to believe that we are not enough. And so I would say to the nine year old me, you are more than enough, you are worthy and you will align with people who see you. So don't lose sight of yourself. Yeah, yeah. And I do want to say there are different domains of self esteem, different areas of self esteem. So academically I was an A student and felt very good about that. And then in terms of like gifts or talents, I love dancing and poetry and felt very positive about that. But then when we get to the realities of sexism and racism, they do a number on the self esteem, the body image, the social esteem of ourselves. When you feel like you are not chosen or not sufficient. And so when you've had those experiences, often it can result in you breadcrumbing, accepting the minimum, not being aware that you're deserving of the feast, even if the feast has not yet shown up.
- [05:42]
Sophia
Hmm.
- [05:43]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [05:45]
Sophia
That's a big one.
- [05:47]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right?
- [05:48]
Sophia
The, the idea that you are worthy of being patient with your life because there's, there's a lot of talk about, oh, you're worthy of this and how can you love another person if you don't love your. It all feels a little bumper stickery to me.
- [06:05]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [06:06]
Sophia
And the notion that you can be sure you deserve something you haven't seen yet. Yes. But you know it exists because you've certainly seen other people find it. That's a kind of nuance and a layered ability to look at time differently that I don't think we are encouraged to focus on, especially as women and especially in a capitalist world where productivity is sort of treated as sacred.
- [06:42]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [06:42]
Sophia
To be and allow yourself this space to be is kind of a radical act of self acceptance.
- [06:51]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It is, it is the basis of what's called liberation psychology. So liberation psychology requires that we pay attention to context. When people are ignoring context, they would say the problem is just in your mind, like, why don't you love your body? Why don't you love your face? Why don't you love your hair? As if you have just created these thoughts in the abstract, as opposed to the powerful messaging that gets sent forward that says you have to be something other than what you are to be loved, to be worthy, to be respected, to be appreciated. And so when we dismantle those and we speak truth to the fact of, of course this is a struggle for you because there have been all of these systems set up to make you believe you are unworthy. So the fact that you wrestle with it is not like, oh, you just need to love you. It's a, as you name, it's a radical, revolutionary act of resistance for me to push through all of these messages and say, I still choose me. I still celebrate me. Yeah.
- [08:14]
Sophia
And you've just illuminated something for me. I wonder, I would imagine you've had this a lot because you're such a profound speaker and a profound writer and such a top tier academic that you also have the research to back up the poetry that you often give to the world. And many years ago, I was asked what I would say to my younger self. And what came to me, and I didn't realize how badly I needed to hear it until I said it out loud, was worry less about being someone else's definition of enough. You already are. And I consider myself, you know, we talk a lot about privilege in the world and we have to, to begin to understand as you're, as you're referring to these systems that treat people differently. I, I consider myself to have had the great privilege of a lot of exposure to a lot of people who live different than me and look like, look different than me for my who. And one of the things in groups of women that, you know, we all do the work with. When I look at women who look like me, who might be newer to some of these spaces, I just say, you know how hard it is to move through the world in your body as a woman. Imagine how hard it is for my best friend Nia, for Dr. Tema, who I sit with today, for the other women in our circles that we know to move through the world as women and as black women or brown women or South Asian women, like the, the piling on of what you have to squeeze through. You don't get to be passing in any way, you. You don't get to take off your identity. And it's why, I think when we have to ask people to look deeper, even when you talk about loving your hair, you know the idea that there could be resistance to the Crown act, to a law that says you cannot discriminate against your employees for how they wear their hair.
- [10:19]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [10:19]
Sophia
People who haven't experienced it don't realize it's part of the menu of microaggressions that you're being faced with every day. And so I wish, and I think part of the reason I always cherish finding you in the sphere of, you know, what my algorithm serves to me when I pick up my phone, it always knows I want to hear from you, is that you're reminding us all. Instead of competing in the I'm more hurt than you Olympics to say I know what hurt is. How can I acknowledge my own? And how can I be sensitive to the different kinds of hurt that exist in the people around me? So maybe we can all heal together.
- [11:08]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [11:09]
Sophia
And I think it's a profound practice for humans. And in a moment like this, it's an incredibly important awareness to carry as we try to push back against this pendulum swing back into deep, overt, cruel, systemic oppression.
- [11:28]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [11:29]
Sophia
So you're doing heart work, but you're doing, like, nation saving work as well.
- [11:33]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Yeah. It really is about recognizing how much our liberation is intertwined. And when we don't see that, we. We treat it like a competition, which then says, you have to be erased so that I can be seen. And when people act like that, then it is the misperception that if you have a month or you have a day or you have a speaker that somehow that is an attack on. Instead of, I love that phrase of the sky is big enough for all the stars to shine. So there is room to talk about all of our histories which are interwoven. There is room to talk about our literature, our art, our beauty, our contributions, our wisdoms, our spiritualities. There is space. And so it is that scarcity mindset and agreed mindset that says there will only be room for one and that one must be me. Yeah.
- [12:43]
Sophia
It strikes me because you are able to hold all of these things. You are a professional at the dialectics you understand, all of these things can be true at the same time. And to be the psychologist that you are and come from a deep generational faith tradition in your family, to be both a psychologist and a minister, so many people assume that faith and science are diametrically. Opposed instead of actually when the. When the scope is widened, able to hold and support one another. How did you. How did you get here? When did it click for you, entering into academia or as a young student, that you wanted to carry both of these worlds together?
- [13:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, it feels more true, more real, more authentic to me, instead of what we would call the false dichotomy. Dichotomy. Right. Of which one are you? Do you appreciate science or are you a spiritual person? And it's. Who said I had to choose? Because if I'm a spiritual person, then I understand the lessons that are encoded in nature, that if I sit and appreciate the observations, then I understand the sacred can work through my being as a psychologist, that it's not a either or, like, are you going to pray or go to therapy? You can pray on your way to therapy, you can pray in therapy, you can pray after therapy. So rejecting and resisting these false choices. And I would say, you know, a part of that is, from an Afrocentric perspective, is fundamentally being holistic. And so we're holistic, then we honor the mind, the body, the heart, the spirit, the community. And I used to live these kind of separate selves. So when I was with my spiritual friends, then that's what I would talk about. When I was with my artsy friends, then we talk about dance and poetry when I was with my academic folks, and we would talk about the latest articles. And I will say, I did not maximize. And I'm still not at the maximum, but I did not maximize my possibility until I started integrating those multiple selves. And when I did that and showed up as my authentic self, it freed and liberated and gave other people permission to say, me too. So, for example, I was a past president for the Society Society of the Psychology of Women. And, you know, a big part of that work is around feminist psychology. And so when you're president, we have a budget and you can set different initiatives. And one of the initiatives that I did was on women's psychology, spirituality, religion and faith. And before I did that initiative, there was kind of this unspoken rule that feminists would be against any kind of religious tradition because of patriarchy and the oppression of women and violence against women. And so when I announced the initiative, we had like, a break in the board meeting, and a number of board members came up to me and were whispering, saying, I'm Episcopalian, I'm Catholic, I'm Jewish. And it's like, why are we whispering? It is believing the falsehood that in order for my politic to Be important to me. I had to have surrendered my faith, and it's just not true. And so it's been beautiful to be a bridge, to create spaces and hold spaces where we can be our totality, the fullness of who we are, and not have to leave parts of ourselves in the margins.
- [17:02]
Sophia
Yeah, well, and what strikes me as so important about beginning to unify spaces like that again is it actually gives room for them not only to evolve, but to reclaim their full selves.
- [17:18]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [17:19]
Sophia
You know, I grew up in a family full of Catholics, Jews, and atheists, so our holiday dinners are wild, as you can imagine. You know, by the time I got to college, I'd already spent, you know, time taking college courses on Islamic studies. I really wanted to understand, you know, how are all these faith traditions so intertwined. And for me, it's never lost on me that when the. When the faith tradition, whatever religion it is, also becomes a business and there's profit to be made, then the faith tradition becomes more patriarchal. Women are cut out of leadership, often cut out of text, and the energy changes. And so to your point about an Afrocentric methodology of being to become more holistically feminist, more holistically community centered, more holistically devout, in fill in the blank faith, you actually become more inclusive.
- [18:23]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, yes.
- [18:24]
Sophia
And it's like. It's like we've gotten stuck in our human experience down here in the weeds, and we're forgetting that there's a whole, you know, canopy.
- [18:35]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [18:36]
Sophia
That we're meant to understand and navigate together.
- [18:40]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. So that reclamation, the decolonization, the deconstruction, you know, what are the lies, the myths that we were presented with as truth and as absolute and to give ourselves space to interrogate that and to mean. It's not that I have to throw away the whole thing. I throw away the version of it that was given to me, that dishonored me, and I tap into. There are a whole tradition of people before me who were committed to, we would say, like, liberation theology. What frees us, what lifts us, what. What actually allows me to enter into spaces and feel loved there and feel seen there. And if I have never entered into such a space, how do I create that to create sacred space? We would say, even on your podcast, Right. That this can be holy ground, this can be sanctuary, and we are deserving of that.
- [19:48]
Sophia
Wow. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
- [19:54]
T Mobile Ad
Go almost everywhere with the podcasts you love on T Mobile's network, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are On America's largest 5G network Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid cart. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch. Up to four lines of a virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service port in 90 plus days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.
- [20:31]
Sophia
The idea, it's a big topic, right? How to, how to unify the world, make people treat each other more holistically, less competitively. We would be remiss not to put it in the context of what's currently happening in our country. You know, this, this backswing as we were discussing earlier into this, you know, very right wing discriminatory fascism. And everything you're saying perfectly fits over the scope of the world, but also of the internal world of one, of an individual. And I think in periods like this where the, where the world at large feels so traumatizing to so many people, people are trying to manage stress. They are absolutely overwhelmed. It's, it's chronic. How, how do you begin to give, whether it's like you said, your mentees or clients or folks who you talk to online, how do you help people? You get to the tip of the spear, put that first, poke in the veil and start to see what's on the other side. Where do you tell folks to begin?
- [21:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, such an important question, especially in the times we are living in, is necessary. And so I use the term homecoming. To come to myself is to tell myself the truth. And when I tell myself the truth, I don't have to censor, judge or apologize for what I feel. And so with that in mind, for those who see the landscape and are exhausted, that makes sense. Speak that this is exhausting for those who are disappointed, for those who are outraged. You know, sometimes people present this notion that to have to be mentally or spiritually, well, like you're just in this place of not being moved by anything. There's some outrageous things happening. So a healthy response is actually outrage. It means that I recognize that things are out of order, that people are being dishonored, that people are being dehumanized. And so, you know, I would start with allow yourself to feel it. Tell yourself and those within your circle who you trust what is stirred up for you in this season. Because what we often do, and this is again, you know, from this capitalist notion of like, I have to be on and perform. And because I'm measured by my labor is. Then we pretend, how are you? I'm fine. And you? I'm fine. Right. So we shake that up. We disrupt that by, how are you? I'm mad. How are you? I'm disappointed. How are you? I'm tired. How are you? I'm confused about the way forward. Oh, you too? Yeah. I'm trying to figure it out too. So our truth sets us free, and that also allows us to mobilize because you cannot respond to something you do not acknowledge. And then it's for us to step out of these silos of only fighting for my small group, because as long as we are divided and see each other as enemy or competition, then we are disempowered. But, you know, successful movements happen when they are intergenerational, when they are intercultural, when people show up from all, all over, all over the place. And the ways in which things are moving, tap into that necessity. Can I see your struggle and see mine versus what has happened is people thought. Some people thought that this would not affect them, so they were comfortable with it. It's like, oh, if it's only going to affect the undocumented, I'm okay. Or if it's only going to affect lgbtq, I'm okay. And so then as it continues to roll out and gets closer to people's front door, then it's like, oh, wait, what are we going to do about this? Yeah, what are we going to do about this?
- [25:11]
Sophia
Do you think that. And I ask because I. I don't think it's easy to find people who would readily say, oh, I assumed this would just affect these people. But do you think the human. I don't want to say tendency, but perhaps frequent human pattern of, oh, if it's just happening over there, then me and mine are all right. Do you think that comes from the kind of generational truth that we carry, that humanity has come with such violence and such cruelty and such terror as it has also innovated and created and done beautiful things in the world? Do you think humans have an inherent fear that can be so powerful that they can run from collective reality?
- [26:10]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I think instead of it being inherent, I actually think it's taught. And that people are taught that these people, whichever, however we want to label them, are the problem, that they're the reason you're not succeeding, that they're the ones that are taking your jobs, that they're the ones that are ruining our neighborhood? And so it is taught, and then it is Repeated. And so the excuse people will give, they won't say, I don't care about them. They'll say this is going to be good for the economy. Right. They'll say that, you know, I'm making a financial decision and so this is going to be. And then like oh well, the price of eggs, well, price of bread, well, the employment, you know, but, but what people have to wrestle with is actually none of what is being done was a secret or hidden.
- [27:20]
Sophia
Exactly.
- [27:20]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It was announced. And so, so people were fine with it. They were fine with it. They were fine with the agenda because they thought I'm going to get rich and we're going to get rid of all the bad people. It has been, I would say maybe throughout our history, our societal history of convincing impoverished and middle income people that they will benefit. The more wealthy people are happy because as long as you can see someone is beneath you, then you're gonna, you're gonna do great. And it is a historical lesson that people have to continue to learn that some people who claim to be for me are not for me. And some people who have been presented to me as my enemies are actually my greatest potential allies.
- [28:28]
Sophia
Yeah, yeah. Some of the studies confuse me. I remember, you know, the guys, the ruse of economic anxiety and we all know what that is, as you've just so eloquently explained. There was a, maybe it was around the midterms, a study that came out talking about how they would give these examples to people and say, well, you and all your co workers can make $80,000 a year or you can make $100,000 a year, but those four guys on your team are actually going to make 120 because they're technically doing things in the office that are more management level than you. But you know, $20,000 raise for you and $40,000 raise for them. And most people said no, we should all make 80 even though that gave them less. And I was fascinated by why do we want to compete instead of all continue to succeed? Why do you want to hold yourself and your and your co worker back instead of watch them soar and then earn your way into soaring? And when we start to look at all this, you know, the, the need to withhold from others is often the root of what hurts us. And we see it happening in this wide landscape and what happens without is reflected within. And one of the things that gave me this moment of, of I kind of gasped when I read it to be honest, when I started the book. And I'm gonna Just like do the thing on the podcast and hold it, hold up this beautiful book that you've given to us. Because a lot of people, I think, struggle with having to learn or you should know this by now. And then they have shame if they don't. So then they don't want to learn anything about it.
- [30:29]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [30:30]
Sophia
And we see it a lot in the world of trying to teach generational lessons and social justice and our history, especially as they're banning books. And when I picked up your book to get ready for today, I gasped really early when you said, if you want to read this book in the order of chapters that call to you, go ahead, I just ask that you do read all of it. Never have I ever had a teacher at any level of my personal or my academic life tell me I could read the syllabus out of order. And I was like, I'm a 42 year old woman. And I was like, I just got a permissions list to break the rules. And it really, it gave me joy that made me laugh in my kitchen. And then I went, wait a second, what if we did this more for each other out in the world? And said, you might know this, but you might not know that. And here's just a thing I think you might want to know, right? Come to this at your own pace. Come to this in your own time. How do, how did you get there? Being as wise as you are about all of it and the generations of all of it and the connections of all of it and why people say what they do because they don't really want to say what they think and where the fear comes from. And I mean, it's. The systems are big and you manage to give a world of permission for every one of one person who wants to grow with you. How did you figure out how to do that? And, and was it that notion of homecoming that opened it for you?
- [32:19]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It is. Thank you first of all, for that example. And I would say a part of what, you know, I approach the writing as a, as a clinician or as a healer and recognizing if someone looks in that table of contents and it's about, you know, a chapter in the back on healing after infidelity. And they just been cheated on. Like they want to get there. They can't even hear the rest right. Or how to let go of someone who doesn't love you. Like that's, that's in the forefront of your heart, your mind, your spirit. And a part of, you know, liberation work or womanist or feminist work is acknowledging the wisdom of the people around the table. So like that other approach is to assume I know everything and you know nothing. And so I'm going to instruct you, but instead right for you know, and that's not empowering. The empowerment is tap into your inner wisdom. Tap into what you know. You know what you need right now, trust yourself with what you need right now. And once you get what you urgently need, know that the rest of it is there for you and can serve you. And one of the ways that I learned the importance of predictions, you know, sharing with people predictions is predictions and permission is in therapy. As a trauma psychologist, if people come in to therapy and in the moment they feel inspired or they feel safe and they share something very personal or very vulnerable, it is a chance that in the moment it felt good. But afterwards they're going to replay the moment and say to themselves, like I said too much or what does Dr. Tama think of me? Or I'm not going back now I'm embarrassed. And so at the end of a session where people have really revealed themselves, I'll give them that prediction and say to them, I'm so glad what you shared today. And at some point this week you're likely going to think I don't know if I want to go back and I invite you to push past that and show up anyway. And if next week you don't want to talk about what you just said, you can say that and we'll talk about something else. So then people will come the next time and say, you know, you were right, I was thinking about not coming, but I remember what you said. And so for us to walk in our our mutual like we get to co create it together and we get to honor and discover that we do know some things about ourselves.
- [35:17]
Sophia
And now a word from our sponsors.
- [35:22]
T Mobile Ad
Go almost everywhere with the podcasts you love on T Mobile's network because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are On America's largest 5G network Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to four lines of your virtual prepaid card allowed 15 days qualifying unlocked device credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required Card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [35:58]
Sophia
One of the things I appreciate about the example you've just given is that it's kind of a meditation on patience. Again, not just give yourself permission to be patient for life to show up for you, but also give yourself permission to have a burst of observation and then need some time, need some time to go on your morning walk and let it reverberate around in your body and talk about something else and then come back to it when you're body and spirit have digested it.
- [36:34]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right? Yeah.
- [36:35]
Sophia
You know, there's a, there's a weird byproduct for all the great things that I think, you know, the Internet has given to us. It gave you to me as a, as a viewer when I first found you, for example, one of the things I fear it's done and I just had a conversation with another artist about this recently. Now you can't do anything without it feeling or likely being recorded. You don't have time to discuss something, think about it, read an article, read a book, mature your opinion and then talk about it again. One video clip, one clickbait, one bad rehearsal for a performing artist of a song, one and it. And it blows up your life.
- [37:21]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right?
- [37:22]
Sophia
And sometimes I worry that people are missing the ability to be vulnerable, grow and then return as fuller versions of themselves.
- [37:34]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah, yeah, that is such a good point of being, accepting, being called in. Right. Accepting and appreciating growing pains. What I like to say is when we get it wrong and someone shares it with us, what a gift. Like they could have not said it. And then we continue on our way not knowing that something was harmful or offensive or inaccurate. And so we want to always be teachable and to have that cultural humility. Because now what they're trying to do is say if you make the majority uncomfortable, you have now done something illegal. And it's like discomfort is illegal. Right. It will be uncomfortable to learn what you had not been told. It is uncomfortable. But you wrestle with that and can grow from it. The other thing that I think is important about us giving ourselves permission to honor where we are in the process is it also is teaching us sovereignty and empowerment in order to have boundaries. Right. When I have to just obey, then it requires no awareness on my part. But when I have to, as you name like take, I like to call it sacred. Pause. Let me pause and consider. What do I think? What do I feel? What do I want to say? And I like to use the phrase the holiness of no. Because for women or religious people or trauma survivors, we are often talked out of our no. And we're in that people pleasing mode of what do people want me to be, but it's not authentic. So instead I get to embrace the holiness of, no, that's not where I am right now, or no, I don't have the capacity for that, or just, no, I choose not to. And so to give ourselves permission to grow, to change, to shift. That's the way we heal.
- [39:59]
Sophia
Yeah. And I love that you relate it to learning about your impact in the world. Sometimes hopefully for good, and sometimes where you don't mean it to be negative for others. And also this idea of even how we move through the kind of, you know, staircase of our own experience and reflection. You know, I've had the version of what you just talked about with my own therapist where we get to the root of something really hard that happened and I want to talk about it, it's time to talk about it. And the next week I'm like, I need 15 minutes of talking about something else.
- [40:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [40:40]
Sophia
Okay. And where I am about that is, yeah, now I've thought about it every day for seven days and I'm mad all over again. And I'm mad at the person who was in the room and watched it happen and didn't say anything. And I'm mad. And you have to go through these things. But you're right, the expectation that you can just show up and be ready for anything at any time, it is, it is a, that is a boundaryless society. That is a, that is a behavior that is lacking respect for another person's process. And I think the more we can talk about it, you know, how to just expand what you can hold, including for others, like, imagine what a more gentle world it would be when you, when you went through working on the book. Because one of the things that I love about this, you know, you've coached so many of us, whether personally or digitally in community, on, you know, resilience, on the sacred pause, on expansion. And a lot of what you talk about in matters of the heart is relationship, and it's relationship to your partner, to your family, to yourself.
- [42:02]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [42:03]
Sophia
Is there a reason that you chose to use relationship as the container? Because it, it feels, as a reader, like it was very much on purpose. And it's not just because people are in relationships with each other.
- [42:19]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. It is the biggest question and most frequent challenge that people show up with. And it's also a big predictor for our well being. So when you feel well loved, well cared for, when you have that sense of belonging, that can be a protective factor against depression, against anxiety, against addiction, dealing with big life Transitions. It's like I'm moving cross country, but I'm calling my friends. Right. So that can help us. And at the same time, heartbreak can be devastating and have a ripple effect in the other areas of our lives. People, people can be very successful, let's say academically or professionally. And then if the partnership is in ruins or the friendship ends, it can disrupt everything. It can take our sleep, take our appetite, take our self esteem. And so it is very important both in terms of thriving and recovering from the difficulties of life.
- [43:42]
Sophia
And in the book, you talk a lot about emotional unavailability. How do you identify if you are emotionally unavailable or if. Yeah, as you referenced earlier, you have to let go of someone who maybe does not love you in the way they said they did, that feels like an emotional unavailability or maybe better categorized as a dishonesty. I'll let you decide. But how do you, how do you find kind of the root of that problem?
- [44:14]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. So, you know, with ourselves, we kind of check in, check ourselves to see how real, how authentic am I in my relationships and in my friendships. Some of us can show up for other people when we're feeling strong, when we're feeling shiny, when we're feeling successful, and then when we're feeling challenged, we disappear. Right. So you have to ask yourself, when I'm struggling, do I reach out to my circle and let people support me or do I isolate because I only believe people can see me when I'm at my best? So that kind of emotional. One note is emotional unavailability that I can't be open to the full spectrum of my feelings in the presence of another. It's one thing if I say, oh, you know, my co workers or people I don't know well, or strangers on the street. Sure. With them I could do public relations. How's your day? Oh, great. How's yours? But am I. Am I talking to my family and friends and partner that way? So you want to ask yourself your level of honesty, which is our level of intimacy in terms of these relationships? And we also want to think about the ways we may sabotage connections or our discomfort with being seen. How does it feel to me when people are actually paying attention? Right. When they observe things about me that I'm not used to people seeing? Right. And then in terms of, in relationship accepting, when people's actions either don't match their words or when their actions don't match my fantasy. Because sometimes it's not even their words, sometimes they never said anything. But you know, we created this picture of like, oh, we're gonna either be besties or this is gonna be my partner. And they're, they're not on board with that. So everybody in the relationship has to know they're in it. It can't just be one sided.
- [46:41]
Sophia
Right? Right. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.
- [46:50]
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- [47:26]
Sophia
I guess everybody also has a point where some of those things click in, right? I, for whatever reason, it really makes me think about the dissolution of my last relationship, which, you know, to add insult to injury, was out in the world, which is never an easy way to process something, but, you know, kind of comes with the job.
- [47:48]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [47:49]
Sophia
The, the thing that I was so profound for me, especially as a woman.
- [47:56]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [47:57]
Sophia
Knowing how so many of us have been taught to be good and to smile and to serve others and take care of everyone else in the room and do, do all of the things, be a good soldier, be a good leader on set, be a good daughter, be, whatever. The thing that finally made me stop saying, well, maybe if I compromised more, maybe if my job were less difficult, maybe if I, maybe if I, maybe if I. And made me go, wait a second, what about what. What's supposed to be for me instead of what I'm supposed to do for.
- [48:31]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Yes.
- [48:33]
Sophia
And the aha moment for me was being on the precipice of becoming a mom and going, oh, every single thing I have accepted for myself, I would never ever accept for my child.
- [48:49]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [48:50]
Sophia
I would never, ever, I would never tell my best friend to compromise more. I would say to her, you're being asked to compromise yourself, not to compromise with another. And, and there was something about realizing, oh, I have gone through the spectrum of, you know, in small ways to unacceptable, big ways. I have always kind of compromised myself. And I thought I learned how to not do that, you know, seven years ago. And here I am realizing I'm still doing It. And it looks good on the outside, and it's all smoke and mirrors. And it was this kind of revelatory. I sort of felt like. I felt like internally I had one of those experiences, like when we used to watch the videos of the old hotels in Las Vegas get demoed. Like, the cool old buildings that would blow up on the inside and then collapse because then they, you know, they were building the skyscrapers. Like, that was my thing. I was like, oh, I've. The whole thing has to come down. And it made me have conversations with my parents at 40 that I thought we'd had and achieved. And look at us doing the work at, you know, 34, all these things. It made me realize there was a whole basement layer I'd not gone through yet. And it was so painful and weirdly, also the most joyous, the most oxygenated. I mean, I just took such a deep breath even thinking about it. Yeah. It was so hard and so good, and it was the thing that had to happen. But I had to stop trying to be good, and I had to stop trying to take care of everyone else in the room before myself.
- [50:47]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [50:48]
Sophia
The metaphor I gave myself was like, stop cooking a dinner for 30 people and then serving yourself the scraps as the 30th person to plate her food. You cooked the food. You make your plate first.
- [50:58]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [50:59]
Sophia
You eat first.
- [51:00]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right, Right.
- [51:01]
Sophia
But it took me four decades to feel that I deserved that. And that is when I feel to what you were saying earlier. That's when I feel like my life arrived for me and I was like, oh, okay. It's just been a slow burn.
- [51:19]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [51:19]
Sophia
But it's here.
- [51:21]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Ah, I love that testimony. And it's also deeply understandable because we get celebrated for erasing ourselves. You know, people will hold you up and say, you're a good partner, you're a good friend. You have no needs. You have no needs.
- [51:41]
Sophia
You're so selfless.
- [51:42]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes, yes. It gets celebrated. And so, of course, you lived like that. Right. And I think that's the part to take in, because if not, we can beat ourselves up about, oh, my God, why did I do this for decades? Because it was taught and reinforced, and it was modeled and celebrated that this is what you. Because nobody wants to be a selfish woman. Right, Right. And so then when you're like, wait a minute, we're getting the bad end of the stick here.
- [52:12]
Sophia
Right.
- [52:12]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I'm supposed this should be mutual. This should be reciprocal. I should be that. You know, what I like to say is if you make them Your priority, and they make themselves their priority. Who's looking out for you. Right. So I can only be selfless in the presence of someone else who is selfless, and then we are mutually nourishing each other. Yeah. Yes. Well.
- [52:40]
Sophia
And you're saying something that I think gets missed in this self love discourse. Love yourself first before you can love another. We talked about it earlier. There's this. I've seen backlash, you know, both for some of what I've shared. I see it with Chelsea Handler talking about choosing herself in a relationship that wasn't good. I see it. It's on the Internet a lot like, oh, happiness isn't the metric. And how selfish that you and et cetera, et cetera. No, my core, I'm still the person who likes to cook for everybody, but I can't be the only one who does it.
- [53:16]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [53:16]
Sophia
I actually can be more selfless in a reciprocal relationship than I could ever be in one where I was expected to do all and be all and be quietly happy.
- [53:29]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right, right.
- [53:30]
Sophia
In a weird way, the more you're able to say, oh, I deserve, I will also take for myself, the more you can give to another. Is that right?
- [53:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Yeah. And then it doesn't get set up as you're dishonoring or robbing the other person or the relationship is that we want each other to be well. And so the things that make you well. Right. But it is interesting as you name people getting angry at women for wanting to be happy. So I just like, really. And including messages from other women who have chosen misery and perseverance over their own joy. And so then they are outraged at how dare you walk away and choose joy? Because for them, it never felt like an option.
- [54:25]
Sophia
Yes. I need you to say that again.
- [54:27]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [54:28]
Sophia
Women particularly.
- [54:29]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [54:30]
Sophia
Negative. Negative elements of the patriarchy. Right. Get enraged when other women choose joy. When other women get free.
- [54:38]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Yes. It's like, how dare you do that? I didn't know we could do that. I don't think I can do that. Doing that must be bad in order for me to feel good about myself and so for us not to judge each other. Like, if someone chooses to stay in an unhappy circumstance because their values tell them loyalty is more important than happiness, that's your choice. That's your choice. That's your choice. And for those who choose to say, my mental health is more important than being loyal to something that's killing me, that's the choice.
- [55:23]
Sophia
For me. The. The thing that I heard myself say to a friend that then I Couldn't stop saying was, everybody says life's too short, but I'm realizing life is way too long to do this. It's just too long to be in.
- [55:42]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So much pain and unfulfillment. And one of the important, I think, distinctions for people is it's not that I can't do it, it's that I choose not to. I. I could be. I could just keep making all the dinners. Right? I could keep doing all of that. But I. I'm going to make another choice because I have many more years and many more seasons. And here's the other thing that I think people don't get. It actually sets both people free. Right. Somebody is going to be happy with that other person, like, and not consider it suffering or perseverance. So let them be free to find their person. Let you be free to find yours or to create the life that you want. That, you know, it's that scarcity mindset that, like, we are all we could ever have and so we have to cling to it even though it is joyless.
- [56:50]
Sophia
Yeah. But to say, I know I deserve more than this scarcity, it's kind of like jumping without seeing the net beneath you. It is terrifying. You know, thank God for hindsight, because we always say, you know, it's 2020. I can see the terror and the courage that it took for me and so many people I know who were going through it at the same time and friends who are going through it now. How do you think we can tap into our courage, our knowing that there will be a net when we are so afraid? Because to your point, so many people choose the pain they know instead of the unknown, which could be joy.
- [57:42]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [57:42]
Sophia
So there must be something we have to shift. Right?
- [57:45]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. So a part of it is. I call it a faith walk, especially if you've never been treated wonderfully. Well, you say you've seen other people. Like, I know it exists in the world, but has it existed for me? Then for a lot of people, they would say, no. Like, this is the best of what I've had, even though it's not good. And so can I have faith for what I have yet to experience? Can I have faith that it can exist for me? And I need to say this because part of. And therapy for me is like, not giving false promises is like, let's say you didn't meet Mr. Or Ms. Wonderful. Do you still want to be in this? Right. So it's not a matter of, like, it's because. Because if not, people will Think instantly, well, where's my new person? And it's like, well, how about, where's my new life? How about, here's my joy. How about, here's my opportunity to begin my new chapter, whatever that is going to be.
- [58:56]
Sophia
Here's, here's my opportunity to be my full self instead of a reduced, fractional version of me.
- [59:02]
Dr. Tama Bryant
That's right. That's right, Absolutely. So I think it's easier sometimes for people to imagine that then, because. Yeah. If the other way, if it's just hooked on to like, I'm instantly gonna be swooped off my feet by someone amazing. And when months or years pass, they haven't met that person, then they feel like, oh, I made a mistake. It's like, no, you were miserable. You were miserable and unfulfilled. And so now you're living a freer life and down the road, who knows how far down the road you may connect with someone and then you'll be able to say it was worth the wait.
- [59:42]
Sophia
Yeah, yeah. Patience. It really all sounds to me like it comes back to a practice of patience for yourself.
- [59:51]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I will say patience and co creating. So I'm not just like passive sitting and waiting. Right. Because I have people who are like that who just like work, remote, stay home all day and it's like, who you gonna meet the delivery person? So it's like I have to be active while I'm being patient, but I'm engaging with life.
- [60:16]
Sophia
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes just that, just shifting where you physically are, putting yourself in new rooms.
- [60:25]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right.
- [60:26]
Sophia
It can reveal your whole life to you.
- [60:29]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes. Yeah.
- [60:30]
Sophia
You might have been in front of you the whole time.
- [60:32]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [60:34]
Sophia
I, I said this a lot in that very transformational year as well. Like I just didn't see it till I saw it. And I think you, if you're lucky, you get put in spaces where you get to see something you didn't expect.
- [60:52]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Right. Yes, it's true. Being open to the new. Can my life be different than it is right now? Yes, it can be.
- [61:01]
Sophia
Yes. So these are big ideas. Courage is a big practice. Bravery is a big practice. A faith walk is a big practice. What are some of the smaller, more able to go on? Perhaps a to do list.
- [61:18]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yes.
- [61:19]
Sophia
Or a calendar, the daily practices that you would tell people to incorporate for their mental self care or that you incorporate for yours.
- [61:31]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah. So I like to say create a morning ritual, you know, set the tone for your day. And you know, I had to discover that because basically if you wake up at the time, you have to jump out of bed. You've already started day anxious. Right? So then we need to set the alarm before I need to actually be up. So I could have a season of stillness, season of sacred connection, whatever that's going to look like for me. It might be listening to this podcast. It might be journaling. It might be I'm waking up early enough to be able to go for a walk. It might be because I need time for prayer, meditation. So start the day by feeding your spirit. I like to say, you know, pick a theme song. What's the song like when you put it on? It makes you want to dance or makes you feel good inside. That way you're not going out in the world hungry and desperate for the world to give you life. Like, I show up and then I can get for my overflow, right? I can't show up empty, so I have to be intentional about pouring into myself. So, yeah, start the day in love with love with the sacred. And then I would say, stretch into greater vulnerability in your relationships and friendships. Tell somebody an uncommon truth today. You know, when someone asks you, how are you doing? Give somebody a real answer. And then we'll start to deepen our friendships and deepen our connections.
- [63:15]
Sophia
Give somebody a real answer.
- [63:18]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [63:19]
Sophia
That's nice, right? It's really nice. Do you have a morning song?
- [63:26]
Dr. Tama Bryant
I have several. Breathe it and Is beautiful. Chorus. Have people listen to that. That just reminds you to take breath. And then my dear sister Joy Jones has a song called Beautiful. So it starts with this affirmation. I'm beautiful. Yes, I am. So just like serenading yourself in the morning. Yeah.
- [63:55]
Sophia
That's so special. And it strikes me as simple in a way. These are simple ideas, but what they do for your spirit and. And for the way you begin your day. Profound, right?
- [64:13]
Dr. Tama Bryant
It is about repeated practices over time. So in the moment, it's. And this is an important piece people need to keep in mind. You want goals that are actually doable and attainable, Right. Sometimes we set, like, these outrageously huge goals that are a setup for disappointment, a setup for failure, and then we give up. Right? So the common one, I say, I think I had it in the first book, Homecoming, that if last night. If you had fried chicken last night, don't say, starting today. I'm a vegan. It's just. It's not gonna work. So you start with, like, a meatless Monday, right? So set goals that seem small, but you repeat them over time, and your habit becomes your life.
- [65:02]
Sophia
That's beautiful. Oh, gosh, yeah. I just am sitting with the thought of it, looking at the time and knowing I need to ask you my next question, but just taking a moment. So thank you for that. You know, you are a person who strikes me as always growing and learning and interrogating and, you know, giving to the world, certainly. And you've given us a new book, what feels. Because I imagine when you think about the things you want to do, you are a person who wants to do for everyone. I love that you talk about how to do for yourself, but what right now, as the book is coming out and the world is what it is, and yet you choose to begin every day in love with all these things. You hold what feels like your work in progress right now?
- [66:05]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Well, I will say one of my. What's a continuous work is parenting. My eldest is a sophomore in college now in cross country all the way in New York. And then my youngest is in middle school. And they come, you know, with very different personalities. So I like to say, you know, my eldest made me a very confident parent because, like, she just kind of. And then when my son came along, I had to get some humility, like.
- [66:38]
Sophia
Oh, yeah.
- [66:39]
Dr. Tama Bryant
So continuing to be open to learning, like, learning them and learning myself. One of the things that really nourishes me, we talk about, like, what are practices we could do. I have a sisterhood circle called the Gathering, and we get together about once a month, either in person or online, and just pour into each other. And it's so important to me that it's not a space where, like, I'm doing all the pouring and people are just receiving. Like, it is a real sisterhood circle where if we're having a rough month, we say that and get the encouragement. If we have something to celebrate, we share that. And so, yeah, sisterhood is such a gift. And I continue to humble myself and develop as a parent.
- [67:38]
Sophia
Yeah, I love that.
- [67:40]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Yeah.
- [67:41]
Sophia
Feels beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's just been an absolute joy.
- [67:48]
Dr. Tama Bryant
Thank you for having me for the wonderful conversation and for the beauty of your transparency and your testimony. I know that as you share your story, it set so many people. People free. And I love the range of us talking from personal relationships to social justice, because all of it is. Is necessary.
- [68:09]
Sophia
It is. It is. Thank you so much.