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Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (2:51)

7 Winter is in full swing and Aleve is here to keep you moving when the cold weather sets in, everyday aches and pains can linger, but Aleve's got your back with up to 12 hours of body pain relief per dose. Aleve keeps you going with long lasting body pain relief to get you through whatever the season brings, chilly days or cozy nights. Aleve gives you that long lasting body pain relief you can count on this winter. Try Aleve use as directed for minor aches and pains hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome to Work in Progress, friends. Today I'm gonna practice what I preach as I'm on my own ever evolving path to being able to hold more dialectics simultaneously. More more things to be true at the same time, even when they feel oppositional. It's no secret for my listeners that I really believe that creating a world for all of us is the most important thing we can do in our lifetime. And I get pretty active about the systems and organizations that I think want to take us backwards and in trying to figure out how we build a bigger, broader coalition for good and how we welcome people who want to leave circles of harm and show up for circles of care. I have really been working on figuring out how to do that in my own life and through someone that I really cherish and love. In the movement for justice. I met somebody that a few years ago I probably wouldn't have hung out with for a conversation. I was introduced to a young woman named Carter Brown. Carter comes from deep evangelical maga world. She is in her own worlds, sorry for being, but was a Donald Trump voter. She really came from an environment that told her that this was a political path that overlapped with righteousness and in recent years she's begun deconstructing. I have a best friend Jed, who is a deconstructed evangelical. My friend Monte Mater, who you all see me share a lot, is an incredible woman leading in that space and Carter is newer to it and rather than showing up on the Internet in a few years to talk about how she deconstructed, she's choosing to do it in real time online. And that's not easy. It's not easy to learn in public. It's not easy to admit the ways that you have fallen short of your own ideals. It is not easy to process shame with millions of people watching and to own that you deserve to feel it. I'm pretty impressed with a lot of what she's willing to share and a lot of the ways in which she is the first person to say she's not going to do it. All right. And I wanted to have a conversation with her today because I'm really curious about meeting people in the middle of this exit from harm rather than years in when they've got it figured out and they really feel like they know what they're doing. And I really feel like I know what I'm getting. I'm a big believer in building bigger tables and I'm really working to practice how to do that. And yeah, this was. This was a doozy in a really good way. Let's dive in with Carter. Hey, Carter, how are you? I'm good.

Carter Brown (Guest) (7:15)

How are you?

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (7:16)

I'm good. Thanks for coming today.

Carter Brown (Guest) (7:20)

Thank you for inviting me.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (7:22)

Yeah. I think a grounding point for me is I have found myself very luckily in community with so many amazing people. Such a diverse community of belief, upbringing, geography, faith, gender, race, all the things. And one of the things I've come to terms with in the 20 years I've been trying to support positive advocacy is that part of the reason I've been in the fight for so long is because of my privilege. And not just the obvious privilege that us as white women experience in the world, but I had the privilege of geography and exposure as a kid. You know, I grew up in 1980s LA with a dad who's an immigrant and an artist and a mom who's a first generation American. And my community was very diverse and very queer and multifaith and all these things that helped me see everyone as my neighbor. And one of the things I think is really powerful about the time we're in now is really understanding that not everybody has that privilege. And I'm going to be really frank with you. Like, I've been heads down in the fight in the MAGA world for a long time. And I've had to check my own ego and realize when people say this is new information to me and my instinct is to be like, how could this be new information? Like, we've been sharing it all the time and it's everywhere. And what do you mean? And like I had to take a breath. And you. I think you'll appreciate this. The person who called me out on my frustration was Vice President Harris. And she was like, sophia, you have to understand there's people working with different sets of information. And I was like, information is information. Like, what do you. And she was like, you're not listening to me. Like, I've seen inside the machine, there are people who live in your neighborhood who literally have an entirely different set of information than you do. They have not seen a thing, not only a thing that you've posted. They haven't seen the source you posted from, ever. So are we going to be pissed about it, or are we going to do the work to welcome people who start looking for information outside their silos? And I was like, ugh, like, getting called out by one of the most eloquent, amazing, prepared, storied, like, black women in American history. I was like, yes, MA'. AM. Absolutely, 100. I can do that. And it really made me think about how, you know, I wouldn't expect her to do it. Right. Like, I imagine you've been confronted with the reality that you can't just expect black women to welcome you in right now. But when the black women in my life are like, hey, you and all the white ladies need to go collect the other white ladies, I'm like, okay, 100. Like, that's my job. I'm on it. And so, as a. I will say, I know it hasn't been easy because the Internet is the Internet. But as a white lady who has chosen to begin collecting herself and is showing up to be vulnerable about why that's hard, why it's embarrassing, what the cost is in faith and family and all the other things. Like, I'm glad we can have a conversation, and I appreciate you being willing to do that in a space with someone that years ago, you probably would have identified as, like, a radical, leftist, crazy person, and that you're like, actually, I'd like us to learn from each other. So it's a very long winded grounding for the audience and also welcome for you.

Carter Brown (Guest) (11:25)

Yeah, no, I. I was actually listening to that episode right before this, and she touched on what you just mentioned, and that was something I wanted to bring up. So I'm glad that you.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (11:38)

Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah, I know. I was like. When she said it during, like, the interview where we were on stage, I was like, yeah, yeah. But backstage, I was like, but hold on. And she was like, you're not listening. Like, you're not listening to the point I'm making, and I respect that so much from her. And one of the things I think is so deeply cool is that you're trying to meet people where they are and, you know, as you've said, apologize for behaviors that have added to harm and also figure out who wants to sit with you and who might not yet. And, you know, my wanting to ask you questions was only bolstered by the fact that I found out you've connected with and are forging work with my dear friend Patrisse Cullors, who's one of the incredible black women activists who's taught me the most in the gazillion years. It feels like we've been friends. And so I guess what I want to ask you first is how you are, because I get why there's plenty of people that react with anger to what you're talking about. And I think the only way we move forward is to say, you might be late, but at least you're here. And I know as one person who is used to being a human in your little sphere, when your sphere becomes the whole Internet, it can be pretty overwhelming. So how are you. How are you taking care of yourself while attempting to be accountable and navigate all of this? Like, do you. Have you just made the decision to keep showing up no matter how hard it feels?

Carter Brown (Guest) (13:26)

The best way I can describe my deconstruction is bittersweet liberation. It is necessary and needed, and I'm happy that it's happened, but I. I literally feel like I was living in the Truman show, and I was actually talking to my therapist about this before this, which, ironically enough, I scheduled that perfectly to have therapy right before this.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (13:54)

Oh, I'm so glad.

Carter Brown (Guest) (13:55)

Yeah. And then I was able to listen to the Kamala episode right before, too. So that was. That was a great episode to segue into this. And I don't know how I'm okay with all this, but I am. And everything that I'm doing feels 100% intuition led. And I. I began this journey about two years ago. Two years ago, I decided I wanted to work on my ego and mindset and overcome my negative self talk and my anxiety because I realized I was like. I don't know how else to say this without sounding crazy. Hearing things that were true, that were real, that would happen. I. It could be as big as when I would be pregnant and that happened with both of my children, or it would be as innocuous as, don't forget to grab that jacket outside and I'd be like, I'm in the middle of playing with my kids. Why do I need to go and grab that jacket right now? And then we go inside, I'd forget the jacket and then it would unexpectedly rain. And I'm like, should have listened to that thought. That's weird. And so I wanted to start listening to that voice in my head more and eliminate the negative self talk. And so when I did that two years ago, I shed this care of what other people thought of me in the process of that. And I also realized that I love everybody. And it was. It was this hard realization of being like, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa. These feelings that I used to feel towards someone that I believed were sinning, because that's. This is where it comes down to, like, I was grew up evangelical Christian, and I just thought everyone that was left was being deceived by Satan, being tempted by Satan, sold their soul to Satan, and just wanted to live of the world. Like, that is my understanding. Then some things happened in my life where I started to really question my religion. And because it, like, it was like this juxtaposition of like, okay, I'm voting against the rights of people that I'm now, like, loving and caring about. But, like, the people around me in my community are saying something completely different and acting completely different, but they're not acting like the Jesus I'm reading about in the Bible. It was just hard battling of belief systems that I was having over the last two years, right? And it just, again, I can. I can only describe it as picking up breadcrumbs to get me to where I'm at, because I just continuously picked up the breadcrumbs. I debunked rapture culture, I debunked hell and this idea that I could go to be somewhere eternal, internally separated from God. And when I did that, I realized I think I align with the left, right? And it was such a wild feeling. And that's what I. That was when I first started sharing on Tick Tock, because I wasn't comfortable with Instagram because most of my audience there was MAGA supporting and people I knew in real life. And Tick Tock just felt like, I don't know a soul there. I'm starting at zero. And that's just what I started. Some other things I started talking about, but really towards my deconstruction, it made me realize, like, when you deconstruct, you're not conservative, you lean way more liberal. Like, right? And. And so it just. And I got really depressed through all of this like really depressed and I I was dealing with a lot of other things in life that were happening at once and something in me said. Share about it online right and now

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (17:32)

a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

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Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (18:48)

Tell me if I'm alone here, Whip Smarties. But shopping used to feel more fun before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes. But I have a confession. I have found that fun feeling again on ebay. Because on ebay it's not just shopping, it's a full on fashion pursuit. And when you find the thing, that adrenaline hit is real. Like when you score that rare Adidas collab that's lived on your mood board. The Dior saddlebag you ripped out of a magazine in 2007 and never got over. Or something like The Cecile Bonson XGT2160s that sold out in five seconds. Yeah, those. It's about the thrill of finding pieces that feel like me. And I want you to find pieces that feel like you. There's always more to discover. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay. Authenticity guarantee eBay things people love no

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Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (20:18)

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Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (22:19)

It's really interesting the way you talk about it and in reading through, you know my FYP showed you to me probably somewhere in the algorithm because, like, you connected with Patrisse. And then it was like, you need to see what this woman's doing. And something that really made me go, oh, I definitely want to talk to her was hearing you talk about how you've been able to figure out you've had that sort of aha moment, that the kind of evangelical community you were raised in, the dogma of it, the vote with us, no matter what your eyes are seeing or your ears are hearing, in order to deconstruct that, you basically had to leave an abusive relationship. It's easy to get gaslit back in. It's easy to hear, I only hit you because I love you. The domestic abuse framing for me was the unlock, especially as I hear you say you started to hear that voice. Because I know what it's like as a woman. When you're in an environment that is dangerous to you, you basically learn to disassociate. And it takes a long time to start hearing your inner voice, your wiser, eternal female self, your grandmother's voice, your voice, the voice of who you're going to be at 60. That is like, girl, what are you doing? Or grab a raincoat, dummy. Like, how many times have I told you this before? Whatever it is. And so I want to say that I really appreciate your willingness to do this and I appreciate that you're not shying away from what's hard because you've been just as harmed by a white heteronormative patriarchy as I have. And I hope that conversations like these between people like us can inspire other people. Yeah, hold the totality, hold the good, the bad and the ugly. But, like, sit together and figure out how we're going to get out of this mess. Because the idea that any movement masquerading as a faith based one would encourage you to harm yourself or your neighbors, like, is the most antithetical to faith of any kind in the world. Right. So, like, I really want to know, for you, I hear you, that you started to go, okay, this really doesn't make sense. Like, I see what's happening and that you're telling me it's not happening, but I can see it happening. Hang on. How. How do you think you got out of the. The abuse cycle and, and said, like, I, I can't be gaslit by what you say love is versus what I see anymore. How. How did you really start to. Where was the crack that, like, started to let the light in? I guess there's lots of cracks

Carter Brown (Guest) (25:25)

and the first one that came to mind was spanking. I was spanked growing up for years of my life, probably weekly bare butt. And I did not want to continue that and my husband and I made the decision we were not going to spank. He was spanked probably like two or three times growing up. I however, it was a main form of discipline for me.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (25:56)

Wow.

Carter Brown (Guest) (25:57)

And when my dad found out that we did not want to spank, he was like, oh wait. And he like got out his commentary and his Bible and he was like look like we're commanded to. And so I was gaslit into it and we did it not long and we hated it. And then by literally picking up a breadcrumb, I found the study from Harvard about where it triggers the same part of the brain as sexual assault. And as a two time sexual assault survivor, I said not my God.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (26:35)

Yeah.

Carter Brown (Guest) (26:39)

And I remember calling my husband at work being like, we don't spank anymore.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (26:44)

Yeah.

Carter Brown (Guest) (26:45)

And I was so relieved. But I remember when the dust settled from all that, I remember going,

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (26:54)

I

Carter Brown (Guest) (26:54)

can read the Bible differently than my dad. And so that was, that was, that was the first, first fracture for me.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (27:04)

And now a word from our sponsors

Xolair Advertisement Voice (27:09)

Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair. This is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (28:19)

Tell me if I'm alone here. Whip Smarties. But shopping used to feel more fun before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes. But I have a confession. I have found that fun feeling again on ebay. Because on ebay it's not just shopping, it's a full on fashion pursuit. And when you find the thing that adrenaline hit is real. Like when you score that rare Adidas collab that's lived on your mood board. The Dior saddlebag you ripped out of a magazine in 2007 and never got over. Or something like The Cecile Bonson XGT2160 that sold out in five seconds. Yeah, those. It's about the thrill of finding pieces that feel like me. And I want you to find pieces that feel like you. There's always more to discover. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay. Authenticity Guarantee ebay Things people love no

Podcast Host/Announcer (29:18)

one knows what the future holds, but you deserve a Weather app that can help. Weatherbug is easy to use and provides forecasts for your every need from storm warnings to pollen levels right at your fingertips. Get the fastest local Alerts and comprehensive 10 day forecasts wherever you are. Its hyperlocal real time customizable alerts. Make sure the weather never takes you by surprise so you can plan every day with confidence. Download the free Weatherbug app from the App Store today and start getting accurate weather forecasts 24 7.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (29:48)

You know those days when body pain just won't let you get things done well, Aleve is here to keep you moving. Whether it's a sore back after a workout, knee pain from chasing the kids around, or shoulder pain from carrying the groceries, pain has a way of slowing everything down. But Aleve's got your back. With up to 12 hours of body pain relief per dose, Aleve helps you throughout your day so you can get back to doing what matters with the ones that matter most. Aleve works by reducing pain from inflammation, which makes it a great option for common aches and pains like muscle aches, back pain, joint and minor arthritis pain. Aleve is in it for the long haul from sunup to sundown, morning meetings, afternoon errands and evening plans included. Try Aleve's long lasting Body Pain Relief for whatever your day holds. Use as directed for minor aches and pains.

Dr. Laurie Santos (Happiness Lab Advertisement Voice) (30:40)

This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation, it's also about being present with your choices and for me, present at mealtime. That's why I choose Dietz and Watson. They're a family owned and operated business and they never cut corners, ever. I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes. Dietz and Watson have been handcrafting meats and cheeses for over 85 years. They know that good taste doesn't need a long list of ingredients. They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't. And that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great. They stick to what matters, using the fewest, highest quality ingredients to craft their meats and cheeses because that's how they've always done it. If you want a more mindful meal, check out Dietz and Watson. Dietz, Watson. It's a family thing since 1939. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the dietz difference. That's dietzandwatson.com the right way.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (31:48)

And obviously those fractures within an evangelical community you're met with resistance even when you have the actual teachings of Jesus on your side, even when you have science and psychology on your side. Like it's interesting where everything kind of meets and you go oh, whether I'm examining Christianity or Judaism or Islam or Eastern traditions or I'm looking at the patterns of nature, like there's so much harmony here, there's so much success of any species, including humans and communities, community care. And then suddenly were justifying like violence and tribalism and othering and harm in a book that hold on, a bunch of men wrote down and said was the word of God, but also the men were the kings so they had the most to lose. Like that's the rabbit hole I go down because I grew up with parent. Like my family is Catholics, Jews and atheists. Our holiday dinners are wild. And so like growing up going to church, going to Synag and then having the whole thing pressure tested all the time from either faith tradition. Like I went down the rabbit hole of a whole bunch more. And I will never forget learning that in the 1940s, whatever the committee is that meets every 10 years on the Bible, some official group, they're going to come for me because I should know this. But whatever. Like admitted that the chapter in Leviticus 18:22 that gets used to justify homophobia is a mistranslation and that in fact what it says said was thou shalt not lie with a child. But for all these kings who were like expanding their kingdoms by marrying off their daughters when they were pre teens, they were like that's not really convenient for us. Like and it's not lost on me that we're that we're talking about this, you and I, in a moment where these files are coming out and, like, I'm watching all the MAGA people try to justify Trump again. So it's like. But to get out of it, right? To get out of it. When it's your world view, it's your family tradition, it's your community, if you

Carter Brown (Guest) (34:06)

ask the wrong person, you will be gaslit back into it. And that's why I didn't talk to my dad about it, because I knew what he would say and I knew I needed to stop outsourcing and trust myself.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (34:19)

Yes. Well, but. But would you say that that was part of your upbringing? Like, as a. As a little girl, girl who grew up in this sort of tradition, Were you always taught to be deferent to your father or your spouse or the. The men in the room? For sure.

Carter Brown (Guest) (34:34)

Submissive. Yeah. And add in the whole idea that I had undiagnosed learning disabilities growing up. I grew up thinking I was stupid, legitimately thought I was stupid. And so I just took this as I don't understand, but the people that love me are telling me that this is what reality is, and I'm gonna trust that.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (34:54)

Right. And that's what I think is hard for people. Your attempt here to say, like, I want to crack the glass and take everything that comes with it. I know can't be easy. And I. And I do think we are at such an inflection point. Like, I know the algorithms don't want to show anybody anything. I know a community like yours doesn't want to let views like mine in and probably thinks, I didn't even know

Carter Brown (Guest) (35:19)

you had a podcast.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (35:21)

I love it. But by the way, I'm sure probably thinks like, I would never have a conversation with someone like you, let alone do I have friends who grew up in the evangelical community. What? But it's the deconstruction interests me because I've watched one of my closest friends do it for 15 years. And you're beginning this path and it's, you know, started in 2024, it's 2026. But if you rewind to pre the cracks letting light in for you. Like, if we go back to 2015, 2016, can you tell me what it was like in your world for Trump to hit the political scene? Because I'm going to be vulnerable here and be like, I never thought he could win. I thought this. This guy, he. He is not smarter than a fifth grader. Like, he wouldn't win that game show. He he's like a reality TV dweeb who puts fake gold on everything. Like, I didn't. Didn't take him seriously. But what was it like? Like, clearly we weren't seeing the same news. So what were you seeing? Were people immediately behind him, or was it only when the machine got going? Like, what. What was it like then?

Carter Brown (Guest) (36:32)

So that was a weird time in my life. 2015, I shattered my femur. And I was also addicted to opiate painkillers. And I was bedridden, living in my mom's home, my parents home, so I can sort of tell you. So I was a little. Not 100 there. However, what I can remember is people being supportive because they're like, oh, it's a business person. Like, we're getting a different perspective. And I remember my first reaction when he. And this is when he. He announced Pence was his running mate. And I was like, trump Pence trumpets mom. That's like, revelation. This is bad. Like, this is a bad sign. And she was like, oh, Carter, stop. And I just remember being like, that's. That's weird. Like, what are the odds you weren't

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (37:19)

totally wrong, especially for Mike Pence.

Carter Brown (Guest) (37:22)

And so that was my first reaction. And then, so during that time, you know, I'm, like, recovering in bed. And then in 2016, the following February, I went to rehab. So it was like, I didn't have a lot of, like, perspective. I was really working on myself getting through all of that. But I just remember being like, okay, everyone around me says that this is a great option, okay? And like, the. Grab them by the statement. Let me just skip behind that. I'm under this impression that anybody can change. God can get anybody at any moment.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (37:57)

Right? Yeah, that. That's always the eraser on the whiteboard. Right. It's like, well, they did a bad thing, but that's washed away now. They've repented.

Carter Brown (Guest) (38:06)

He probably hasn't even repented, though.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (38:08)

But, like, well, of course not.

Carter Brown (Guest) (38:09)

But they're going to say that he has.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (38:11)

Yeah.

Carter Brown (Guest) (38:12)

Literally on recording. No, I don't need to ask for forgiveness. And I remember asking my mom, like, what do you think about that? And she was just like, it's cognitive dissonance. They don't know how to reconcile it.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (38:24)

Well, here's my. My thought, and I'm curious, because you come from inside this world. My observation leads me to believe that because. And by the way, this was all a tactic on his part. Like, you and I are on the same page about this. That. Because Trump knew that if he could win over the evangelicals. They would treat their belief in him like their belief in religion. It wouldn't be about a politician anymore. It would be about an identity, which, to be clear, is, is cult mentality. But the, the blind loyalty despite all evidence. I mean, even then I remember thinking, like, what, why doesn't, why doesn't him admitting that matter? Why, why doesn't the tape of him, you know, being deposed about sexually assaulting women, where he says women think rape is sexy, like, why doesn't that matter? So I'm curious how, how these revelations feel now that you're ready to see them and hear them for what they are. And also, how did the sort of qanon, like, he's saying things that sexual predators say, but also there's a whole movement saying he's gonna get the sexual predators. Like, how did that play out? Being under the influence of that sphere

Carter Brown (Guest) (39:51)

at that time, they were banking on the fact that we would not know all the things that you knew. Like, I'm, I guess this. I continue to show people that are close to me, that are helping mentor me, they're like, wow, I'm realizing how much you really don't know.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (40:09)

Different sets of information. It's what Kamala said.

Carter Brown (Guest) (40:11)

Yeah, they're banking on that you don't know that information or that the news source that they watch that will barely blip that or whatever. They'll probably not even mention that.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (40:23)

Like, no, Fox News is not talking about that.

Carter Brown (Guest) (40:26)

Let me tell you what, say it was like an anonymous, a Jane Doe that came forward and said this about Trump. Like, if there was a headline on Fox News, it would be like, anonymous woman from three decades ago, you know, says this or whatever. So they make it seem like it's so far fetched that wouldn't happen. And I actually had, I had lunch with someone who supports MAGA last week and I got dogged in the comments of like, why are you still having lunch with these people? But then also people are like, you need to sit down and have conversations with people. I'm like, I don't know. Supposed to listen to.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (40:56)

Yeah.

Carter Brown (Guest) (40:57)

But I was like, you're supporting a pedophile. Can you imagine, like, what he was like, where is all this basis coming from? And I'm just like, people literally coming forward saying this themselves.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (41:09)

Like, imagine over and over again.

Carter Brown (Guest) (41:12)

And I said to this person, I said, imagine the person that raped me, which this person knew that I had been raped. What if all of a sudden they want to start running for office and they come out of nowhere. Me, who I only told a handful of people. I didn't make a police report. I didn't journal about it, you know, 12 years ago. What if I come forward and I'm like, yeah, that person raped me. Would you say that I'm lying? And they're just, like. You can see the wheels turning.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (41:38)

Yeah.

Carter Brown (Guest) (41:38)

Like, kind of goes over their head.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (41:41)

Firstly, I think it's really hard to admit you've been duped. I think we have to start to build a society where we're more allowed to say, hey, I was wrong. You know, this person who you had lunch with might not know about how long these reports have gone on. That person you had lunch with might not know that Trump himself said he bought the Miss USA pageant so he could walk in the room and see the teenage girls naked. Like, we know that man's a predator. The files are horrific. We know they're trying to hide them. If you really connect all the dots, I mean, this sounds like a conspiracy, but it's not like. Like, Pam Bondi was involved in giving Epstein his sweetheart deal back in Florida, and now she's covering this stuff up for her boss, and they're all fleecing us for all of our taxpayer dollars. And it's, like, crazy. But I think because there's such an overwhelming amount of evidence, a lot of people on, you know, my end of the. Of the spectrum are like, how don't you know? But I. I'm curious about certain things that were so big in the news for a lot of us. Like, what was it like on January 6, then, to see MAGA supporters, like, erecting, you know, nooses and gallows and. And storming the halls of Congress, chanting, hang Mike Pence? Like, was that a moment of dissonance in your community or. Or was that even covered in your community?

Carter Brown (Guest) (43:10)

I didn't know any of that. And I'll tell you my what I know about January 6th. So I was gonna watch the documentary the day that Renee Good was murdered. Like, I. I realize I need to, like, compartmentalize my deconstruction.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (43:23)

Okay.

Carter Brown (Guest) (43:24)

And so I was like, okay, this is a lot happening. I'm gonna put that on the back burner. So I have not yet watched this. However, I have deconstructed my thoughts on all this because I've heard it's going to be a lot. And I'll tell you why. I had a distorted view of January 6th was one of my good friends was there.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (43:46)

Wow.

Carter Brown (Guest) (43:47)

And so we weren't very close. While when she was there. We got closer late, like about a year or so later. So I didn't hear about things as like raw and fresh from her, but like when she would tell me about it, she's like, Carter was nothing like the tv. Like she didn't go to the Capitol, she was at the where she didn't go to all that. But like she basically made it seem like it was not like what the media made it seem it to be. And then you know, my algorithms were basically saying like this was the Fed boys, this is the FBI. Like blah blah blah. And I was like, okay, wow.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (44:28)

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Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (49:14)

You know, you mentioned earlier that you were in the process of this, but a big aha moment was the shooting of Renee Good. And were you. How did that, how did you experience that coming through this deconstruction, beginning to discover how much you hadn't seen in police interactions, particularly with communities of color. Here you are seeing a police interaction with a woman that could have been you who has kids around the age of your kids. Like, do you feel like you were able to really look at that incident with open eyes because you were already in this process?

Carter Brown (Guest) (50:03)

Yes, 1,000%. So I first learned about it on a live. Like, I was watching a friend of mine on TikTok and they were like, oh my gosh, did you hear about this? And I was like, I immediately closed the live. And I was like, I want to see all this for myself. I want to see what the right is saying about this. I want to see about what, you know, independent media is saying about this. I want to form my own opinion because that is so much what I relied on previously is I didn't see things as they happened. I caught the. Caught the headlines after the fact, and that's what formed my opinion for me. And so first thing I did was just go to the RAW video and just watched it. I made my own opinion, was sickened, disgusted. And then I started to hear the commentary. And then I went to go see what Christine, Christine Ohm then had her press conference afterwards. And I remember, like screaming at my phone. And yeah, it could have been me, but I'm also sitting here like, I almost hated that. That was like the first thing that happened in my awakening because so many people just accused me of caring about it because she looked like me. And no, like, that was just the first person who lost their life because of ice since I woke up. And shocked, disgust. I was like, this could have been any of us. And then to come to find out that it was a white woman, it just like really, like, was just like, this is. This is crazy. This is actually crazy. Because if this can happen to someone who looks like me, like, can I

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (51:48)

ask a hard question?

Carter Brown (Guest) (51:49)

Yeah.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (51:50)

Was the, oh, this is crazy. Was it because some part of you went, oh, everything I've been told not to believe that black and brown people have been saying is clearly true. Like, if this just happened to someone who looks like me, the. These communities saying they do this to us and they will come for you. Like, the call is coming from inside the house. Did it really. Did it really cement like that you might have been listening to the wrong voices on these law enforcement.

Carter Brown (Guest) (52:25)

Everything that comes out. I. I am only. I think about, like, what I used to think and what I probably. And it makes me sick to my stomach.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (52:37)

Yeah.

Carter Brown (Guest) (52:39)

That I could be just like that, disconnected from humanity. This is hard.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (52:51)

How do you work on processing that shame? Because, listen, I. As a person who's been in therapy for a long time, I'm so glad you are. Now. I'm seeing you have a very human experience. I know that some of what comes up and literally breaks your heart and makes you want to cry is shame that you could participate in a system like this. And I'm not gonna say, oh, you have to. I'm never gonna say, like, lighten it up. But what I am gonna say is, how are you making sure that you are processing through that so that you don't give up on doing this? Because that, I think, is what makes a lot of people stop deconstructing or changing their mind. Yeah. Is that the. The shame is so hard to feel that they turn back off?

Carter Brown (Guest) (53:50)

Well, I have started to read a book called Unlearning Shame, and that has helped a lot. I meditate on how I. I meditate imagining turning my shame and alchemizing it into gold. Like, literally, I visualize what I think that that might look like. And I, I just. I don't know what that looks like. Again, I don't know what that actual process looks like. But then I also don't know what that gold actually is. But that's just what I'm currently manifesting for myself is that. And somehow there are days I'm crying from the moment I wake up to the moment I fall asleep. But somehow I'm able to sleep at night somehow. And I know that, like, I, I'm not letting the shame overcome me, because it is. It is. It's deep. But I know that it goes back to my intuition. Like, I just, I know I, I, I have this. This trusting that I am divinely protected in this no matter what. And. I feel like processing my shame out loud allows others. I want to be able to provide a blueprint for other people. It's like, you will feel these feelings. It will be real. And, like, that's more or less. What I'm trying to do online is so many people are like, turn your phone off. Do this in private. I'm like, have you ever seen someone deconstruct from maga? That's why I'm doing it. I don't think anybody has. And that's why it's like, my mission. Sounds so silly to say it like that, but, like, my mission overcomes the shame at the end of the day, like, when I. When I think about the shame that I feel, I'm reminded more that that shame will be alchemized into gold somehow. And like, that's what keeps me going. I don't. It probably doesn't make much sense. And a lot of times it doesn't make sense for me. I don't know. It's a very weird feeling to feel like your life is forever changed and you didn't even know that that's what you were embarking on when you did this, you know? But I know that how I feel and where I'm going through all of this is on purpose. The shame is necessary. Like, I think it's a necessary part of it. I don't think I should be bypassing that at all.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (56:40)

I don't either. I appreciate you saying that.

Carter Brown (Guest) (56:42)

Yeah. And I think that in my follow up video from all this, I. I said, I was like, this is the part of my journey where I do need to de center that. I do need to not make it about, you know, facing the accountability that I'm experiencing and what that means. Like, yes, I can talk to my therapist and my mentors and Patrice and all these people that are welcoming my tears. But, like, it's obvious that this is emotional and I shouldn't have to.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (57:12)

Yeah.

Carter Brown (Guest) (57:13)

Make that a part of my content because it's being lost in translation because I don't want to cause more harm. And I realized that my tears cause harm and I don't want to cause more harm. I feel like I've already caused so much harm. And so when the response to that video was, you still don't get it. You know, and maybe I don't to some degree, but, like, so many people, like, have not seen what I've been doing behind the scenes. I'm not talking about all the things that I'm doing because I'm not doing this for a pat on the back. And so when people are like, well, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I'm like, it's hard. It's hard to. You can't like, please, everyone on the Internet mob, you know, but, like, no,

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (58:01)

but listen, at the end of the day, I think criticism from people who've been harmed by these Systems is valid.

Carter Brown (Guest) (58:09)

100.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (58:11)

And I think you being willing to do it and not present a. Five years ago, I did this. And here's what I've learned. Like. Like, it will affect people who also need to be doing what you're doing. That will dissatisfy lots of people who've been at this for a long time. Eighteen years into my advocacy for better journey, I might not have wanted to have this conversation. I'm dealing with my own shit and. And deconstructing parts of my own ego to ensure I can do this. And I also understand that you the. The concentric circles of how movements need to be built. And very much like in 2020, when we were protesting in the streets of LA, we literally, the riot police would show up, and we would put all the black activists in the center of the crowd, and we would line up five to 10 white people deep, straight up to the riot shields to protect our neighbors. I don't see this as being different to that. I'm going to come to the front and have conversations with certain communities so my friends of color can stay in the center and don't have to. But if I refuse to do it, not only am I doing a disservice to the future of those people who I want to protect on the inside, I'm also not helping people like you and people like me find our common ground to go build a new, better thing. And then what are we doing? It's like if. If we're just having a purity test all the time, we're not doing anything but feeding the machine that caused this mess in the first place.

Carter Brown (Guest) (59:55)

And I think that's what me and Patrice are trying to do. Like, literally, that's what. Because, I mean, we. There are some days, some weeks where she is checking in with me daily. Like, it is not lost on me, the amount of, like, love and support that she pours into me. But, like, that's where we're at right now is we want to strategize. We want to figure out if people from this side and this side come together.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (60:19)

Yes.

Carter Brown (Guest) (60:19)

Like, what can we do? And we don't know, but we know that when we start to bring more people's minds that want the same thing, that have the same desire, that feel their soul being pulled to this to. To help, the answers will be there. Yeah, I don't need to figure that out today. But I know that if I continue to keep on making each step forward, that it will come to fruition the same way. All of this has. Like, if you would have told me three months ago that I'd be sitting in front of you, like, I'd be like, you're insane. You're insane. But here I am. And that's because I trusted and kept on picking up the breadcrumbs like I had been the last five years.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (60:58)

Well, here's hoping we can. We can make more bread and bring more people. Bring more people back toward a future that centers community instead of exclusion. You know, that's. That's my hope. I guess that's probably my work in progress. And I don't want to make. Here's the thing. I don't want to make light of it, but I also know that, like, the deepest, purest, like, most sacred rage I have, that I could encounter people who've betrayed other people for me is true. Like, I have to be uncomfortable and say that to you anyway. And I have to say, I also see the humanity in you. And at some point, at least for me, in my assignment to, like, collect folks and start figuring out how we build together is to be like, oh, goodness, Like, I've watched you. I. I see the shame and the tears. And also, you're a person who deserves lightness as you move forward and try to inspire other people to do it. And, like, I hope we can start to try to meet each other from the best parts of ourselves. And I realize as I'm saying this particular string of words, like, I'm saying it for me to honor myself. I'm saying it for you because I want to build a connection that's, like, truly vulnerable and honest and that finds joy. And I'm saying it for people at home who are either going to be like, this is so inspiring, or like, what the are you doing? Where are your principles? Like, I actually think this is the principle is where do we meet and how do we change it? And I. I'll be honest with you. I have to remind myself over and over again. And you're helping me do it. Like, you didn't see coverage. For me, it was wall to wall. Like, you know, panic buttons were ripped out of black congresswomen's offices. Like, people planned to lynch black elected officials that day. It's one of the horrors of American history for me as a person who, like, you know, whose family came here, like, almost cowboy cartoon version of the American dream story, right? Like, came on boats and came for college. And like, my family loves America and it's hard. And I, I see how hard it is for you even to sit with the reality of that. And like, I think the only way we figure out how to build an America that is complete is one that learns and tells its history. And you're, you're learning and you're learning American history in, in a way that like, has to be really tough to do in public.

Carter Brown (Guest) (64:24)

You know, that's where I'm at with everyone's like, how do I wake up my mom, how do I wake up my dad? I get messages like that every day.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (64:35)

That's got to be hard for you too, because you're also not like a, you're not a clinician, you're not a psychologist. You're a girl who's trying to do this for herself and I'd imagine for your kids too, you know.

Carter Brown (Guest) (64:45)

Yeah.

Sophia (Podcast Host/Interviewer) (64:46)

I have so many more questions for Carter and really appreciate her willingness to talk about all these truths, even though it's gotta be hard to do so under the light of day. Anyway, let's take a break here and come back with her for a part two to figure out where we go from here.

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Podcast Host/Announcer (66:32)

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