Ex-MAGA Carter Brown - part 2

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

Episode: Ex-MAGA Carter Brown – Part 2
Date: March 27, 2026
Host: Sophia Bush
Guest: Carter Brown

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Overview

In this vulnerable and honest conversation, Sophia Bush sits down with Carter Brown, a former MAGA supporter, to discuss Carter’s process of deconstructing her political and religious beliefs, the personal cost of leaving a tight-knit ideological community, and her ongoing journey of self-reflection and activism. This follow-up episode delves deeper into Carter's marriage, her shifting faith, and the ways she is attempting to make amends, educate others, and raise her children differently. Themes of accountability, healing, social justice, and personal transformation run throughout the episode.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Deconstructing Beliefs within Marriage

Timestamps: [04:59–07:46]

• Sophia asks how Carter’s journey of deconstruction impacts her marriage, given her husband grew up in a progressive home but converted to Christianity to marry her.
  • “He grew up in a progressive left-leaning home...When he asked my dad for my hand in marriage, that's when he became a Christian. My dad converted him that day." (Carter, [05:30])
• Carter shares the difficulty of diverging spiritual paths; her husband remains deeply committed to faith while she questions foundational beliefs.
  • Carter: “We're just going opposite directions.” ([07:18])
  • She discusses her husband facing a “professional ego death,” signaling change and growth.

2. Stories and Media That Prompted Change

Timestamps: [07:46–10:27]

• Carter credits documentaries and podcasts with helping both her and her husband shift perspective:
  • “Eternal Theater”—helped debunk hell and explore its historical origins as a control mechanism.
    • “You can just listen to it... it lays it out historically, like how man created this idea.” (Carter, [09:10])
  • “Sins of Our Father”—created by a former Trump voter, it explores racism’s deep roots and personal deconstruction.
    • “...after watching that documentary, the credits rolled, and he was like, well, I just learned a lot, and I understand why you feel the way that you feel.” (Carter, [10:09])
• Sophia recommends “Origin” (Ava DuVernay, about Isabel Wilkerson's Caste) and “Religion for Atheists” (Alain de Botton) as further context on systems and faith traditions ([11:46–15:46]).

3. Systems, Power, and Oppression

Timestamps: [11:16–15:46; 22:17–24:15]

• Sophia discusses how systems of oppression are constructed and perpetuated, particularly around money and ownership.
  • “We subjugate everybody for money, for money. Like, it's so antithetical to every good faith tradition.” ([13:42])
• She notes historical acknowledgment of transgender and two-spirit people in sacred traditions versus modern evangelical scapegoating.
• Both agree that waking up to these realities is a painful but necessary process.

4. Why Many Ex-MAGA Don’t Confront Deeper Bigotry

Timestamps: [21:05–24:15; 22:17–24:15]

• Sophia asks why some people leave MAGA but do not do the deeper work of confronting racism or homophobia.
• Carter responds:
  • “They haven't deconstructed that the left is not...the enemy. Y'all caught on to it before we did... It's hard for me to know—I don't have a blueprint, because not everyone's doing it the way that I’m doing it.” ([22:17–23:12])
• She emphasizes the importance of conversations with a diverse range of people as key to breaking down preconceptions.

5. Making Amends and Giving Back

Timestamps: [26:26–28:05]

• Sophia asks about Carter’s process of atonement and outreach.
• Carter explains she started posting online to cope with depression but soon realized her content was for others, offering hope to those still inside MAGA.
  • “I am monetarily giving back. I am meeting with Black candidates in Georgia to help elevate them because I now have a platform...” ([27:38])
• Sophia underscores that Carter can reach women and audiences Sophia cannot:
  • “There are women who will listen to you about those candidates who won’t listen to me...I want to encourage you to keep trying.” ([28:05])

6. Seeds of Doubt and the Nature of Change

Timestamps: [29:45–30:56]

• Carter believes real change comes not from facts but from inner realizations:
  • “They will only hear the truth when they need to hear the truth. The truth cannot be told. It can only be realized and it will only be realized when someone’s ready.” ([29:45])
• She notes that public activism and the persistence of others help plant critical seeds of doubt for future change.

7. Disinformation, Distraction, and Justifying Harm

Timestamps: [36:09–43:48]

• Sophia and Carter discuss the prevalence of distraction tactics in right-wing media and the difficulty of breaking through to communities still inside.
• Carter describes slow realization about projects like Project 2025 and the challenge of breaking through insular information bubbles.
• Carter shares an experience standing against a KKK rally and facing backlash from her community, with many insisting it was “fake news.”
  • Carter: “The amount of white on black crime is... fake news. It's not real.” ([40:20])
• They touch upon the phenomenon of willful ignorance and how cult-like dynamics shape group thinking.
  • “I grew up in fear-based control, indoctrination. Like, I just now can say all that, like, it not trigger me in any way.” (Carter, [43:17])

8. The Journey Ahead—Hope, Healing, and Cycle Breaking

Timestamps: [49:23–56:32]

• Carter shares her hope for peace and collective awakening:
  • “I feel with every fiber of my being... change is happening. Change will happen.” ([49:23])
• Sophia and Carter discuss the importance of earning trust, feeling like "no man's land" between worlds, and the difficulty but necessity of breaking cycles.
• Carter speaks powerfully about her motivation for her children:
  • “My children have a spark in them and a shine so bright that I know if I stayed down on that, they would be dulled.” ([55:39])
  • She recounts her sister’s dream: “It ends with me. With my sister, it ends in this generation. And I’m really thankful for that.” ([55:58])
• Sophia broadens to the larger cultural struggle, noting how conservative ideologies attempt to "swing back" and roll back generational progress, especially regarding women’s autonomy ([56:32]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Carter Brown on realizing indoctrination:

  “I indoctrinated him. ... He’s the one who started questioning Trump before I did.” ([05:30])

• On systems and control:

  “MAGa and evangelical Christianity go like this. ... The house of cards fell for me when I debunked hell.” ([08:35])

• On activism and evolution:

  “I am a civil rights activist, and I will die being a civil rights activist, and that’s what I want to do, and that’s who I believe I am.” ([09:57])

• Sophia on systems of oppression:

  “We subjugate everybody for money, for money. Like, it's so antithetical to every good faith tradition.” ([13:42])

• Carter on the irreducible nature of truth change:

  “The truth cannot be told. It can only be realized and it will only be realized when someone’s ready.” ([29:45])

• On the unique power of her voice:

  “There are women who will listen to you... who won’t listen to me.” (Sophia, [28:05])

• Cycle breaking for her children:

  “My children have a spark in them ... if I stayed down on that, they would be dulled.” (Carter, [55:39]) “It ends with me. With my sister, it ends in this generation. And I’m really thankful for that.” ([55:58])

• On being a "buffalo" in the storm:

  “I keep on using the analogy that I’m a buffalo. Like, I’m just going through the storm.” (Carter, [44:00])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Deconstruction in Marriage: [04:59–07:46]
• Documentaries and the Power of Story: [08:35–10:27]
• Systems of Oppression & Money: [11:16–15:46]
• Facing Bigotry in the Ex-MAGA Journey: [21:05–24:15]
• Making Amends and Using a Platform for Good: [26:26–28:05]
• On Breaking Through to MAGA Communities: [36:09–43:48]
• Hope, Peace, and Parenting as a Cycle Breaker: [49:23–56:32]

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Tone & Takeaways

• The tone is candid, gentle, and layered with both hope and grief.
• Both Sophia and Carter model openness, reflect on their roles and responsibilities, and hold space for complexity.
• Carter’s story highlights the deeply personal nature of ideological change—how “work in progress” is not a glib phrase but a lived, courageous, and sometimes painful reality.
• The episode is ultimately a call to keep showing up for change, for self, and for the next generation, even (and especially) when it’s uncomfortable.

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Transcript

[Carter Brown]

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[Sophia]

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[Sophia]

Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. My dears, we are in the middle midst of a vulnerable conversation with Carter Brown and I'd like to continue down that path asking some questions that are probably hard to answer and honestly exercising I'd say my my best self. In doing so. We're showing up really vulnerably and patiently and I appreciate the journey with her and I appreciate you all for being on it with and let's dive back in with Carter. Can I ask something just like because obviously we're figuring out what sphere of information your former side is operating with and I'm clearly asking some questions about what you've seen from the sphere of information I get to see, which is probably more than most people. I mean listen, I went to journalism school. Like I'm a news junkie. I am a, I am a believer in community organizing because I think policy is politics, but actually politics are personal. Like I can be a little,

[Carter Brown]

I

[Sophia]

don't know what the word is. Excited about the possibility if it isn't corrupt. Right? But that's big picture like for us. Steph, I'm curious for you. You know you've mentioned your kids and you've mentioned your husband. How is your deconstruction going in your marriage? Because clearly you have been married longer than you've been unpacking these fallacies. Is your husband going along for the ride with you?

[Carter Brown]

He grew up in a progressive left leaning home.

[Sophia]

Oh wow.

[Carter Brown]

And when we were dating, I remember I asked him who do you Think goes to heaven, and he goes, everyone. And I laughed at him. And I am so desperately trying to get that man back. I indoctrinated him. He's the one who started questioning Trump before I did. And so he and I were really big into the conspiracy thing and during the pandemic, like, who. We both were essential workers. So we went into the office every day, but, like, it was just, like, us in our bubble pretty much, you know, and so, yeah, that's all we really looked into. And then we got married. And, like, I never stopped looking into stuff. And so when I debunked rapture culture, it was really hard for him to, like, understand where I'm coming from, because he's having weekly Bible studies and reading his Bible every night and trying to be the man that he agreed to my. To my father to be as my husband. Because when he asked my dad for my hand in marriage, that's when he became a Christian. My dad converted him that. That day. And, you know, he. Tyler has seen a lot of, like, great things that have happened since becoming more disciplined in his relationship with God. But we're both kind of going through it right now. And he actually admitted to me the other day that he's like, I think I'm going through a professional ego death. And I was like, we're getting somewhere.

[Sophia]

We're like, this is great.

[Carter Brown]

But over the last year, basically all of 2025, it was really rough. I mean, you know, he'd be like, what do you mean? You're. You don't believe in hell anymore? And it would just. I didn't know how to, like, defend where I was to be able to, like, regurgitate it. And so it just became, like, explosive and blow up. And, you know, he's reading his Bible, and I'm not. I'm talking to God more than I'm doing anything like that. And we're just going opposite directions.

[Sophia]

And it's not lost on me that you've had the experience of realizing that the arena of your conviction was maybe not as for good as you were always told, and now you are trying to do some good out of the harm done by that. And so I. I think that's why your story is powerful. I also am curious what stories like you mentioned have been powerful to you? Like, what are. What are the documentaries you've watched with your husband? You know, you mentioned that you saw a documentary last January that really opened your eyes. Like, what. What are the things that have been helpful in terms of stories that help you see what's happening around you.

[Carter Brown]

So MAGA and evangelical Christianity go like this. And so the house of cards fell for me when I debunked hell. And someone in the comment section put it really, like, just perfectly. They were, like, questioning the punishment of the system. Caused you, the system, to, like, crumble, essentially. And so it's called eternal theater. You honestly can just listen to it. It's not really visually stimulating. You can just be on a treadmill and listen to it.

[Sophia]

You would do it like a podcast?

[Carter Brown]

Yeah, basically.

[Sophia]

Okay.

[Carter Brown]

And it. I mean, lays it out historically, like, how man created this idea, and it was form of control and all that. And, I mean, it's irrefutable. And then we watched a couple months ago, the Sins of Our Father, which is made by a 2016 Trump voter. And the whole documentary is about why he's not a voter for Trump anymore, and he grew up in Charleston. And so it was about him deconstructing all of that and, like, really showing how the deep racist roots of our. Of our country. And before we watched that video, my husband didn't understand why I felt like, I'll claim it right now. I am a civil rights activist, and I will die being a civil rights activist, and that's what I want to do, and that's who I believe I am. And my husband didn't understand that. And after watching that documentary, the credits rolled, and he was like, well, I just learned a lot, and I understand why you feel the way that you feel. And we as a country need to heal.

[Sophia]

Yeah.

[Carter Brown]

The highest form of accountability is healing. This is how. Why our country has not healed. We have not healed after civil war. We did not heal after, like, post segregation. Like, we did not heal collectively. We have not heard black voices in this country to a way that we need to. And to piggyback off what you're saying of, like, how I'm doing this and being able to handle the criticism and not turn and run back or delete my profile or never go back. It's like, I'm past that. I am on this journey that I know I will never get anything right. Like, I will always need to have the mirror put in front of me and. And shown, like, hey, this is where you missed the mark.

[Sophia]

And, you know, you said, like, you've woken up to understand what these systems look like. And one of the ways I think about the systems that oppress so many of us, look, people are fallible, and people can be horrible, and there are absolutely, like, racist, sexist monsters among us, people who think rape is funny, people who think communities of color deserve harm. Th those people I'm not interested in talking to, but people who want to understand how even in their subconscious, their beliefs or their behaviors might have been shaped by systems, not by their own choice or even by their own awareness. Like, that's a conversation I want to have all day. And one of the things that has really been illuminating to me about the systems is to understand how influenced they've always been by money. Because money is defined for so many as power. And when you see how, you know, pre Christian tradition, for example, there was so much sacredness of both spirits of men and women, the masculine, the feminine. There was even the honor of, you know, the most demonized people by the evangelicals right now are the trans community. Whereas historically two spirit people were thought to have the knowledge of the whole universe. Like, oh my God, you are magic because you understand all of it. And in every other, you know, being or, or avenue, two halves have to make a whole. And I don't just mean like, you know, how you make a baby, obviously. I mean like spiritually, energetically. And when agriculture, you know, this incredible discovery and invention and expansion of science that could allow us to feed ourselves year round became about ownership, cows became property, and so did women. And the stain on America of hundreds of years of slavery was about production. It was about stealing labor. And yes, absolutely influenced by and allowed by and and created out of racism and bigotry for people considered other. But like, when you really get down to it and you go, oh, we subjugate everybody for money, for money. Like, it's so antithetical to every good faith tradition. The metaphors of care, of giving more than you have. It's so crazy. And I think those wake up calls for people, I think seeing stories like you've talked about, I have two things for you guys. You have to watch origin by Ava DuVernay. It is an incredible film she made about Isabel Wilkerson's work on caste. And that's a big eye opener. And it's tough. Like, you actually see how the Nazis based what they did to the Jews in Germany on American Jim Crow laws. Like, it's, it's bad, but it's important. And Ava, as the legend that she is, manages to tell this story through the lens of the researcher. So you're, you're falling in love with this woman and her family, and you're learning really hard lessons at the same time. So it is, it is indelible. And then There's a researcher I really like because again, I, you know, I mentioned to you and a lot of people who listen to the show know this. Like I always joke, my religious upbringing was just a bunch of cats in a bag. So I like to study all the religions and also people who don't believe in them at all. And there's a Reese, there's a writer and a philosopher, Alan de Botton, who wrote a book called Religion for Atheists. And it is so incredible because talks about all the incredible traditions that humans created together that then got co opted by religions as modern society evolved and how if we could just hold our traditions, the things we need as humans, maybe we wouldn't all be so insane about our religions and we could like make room for them and for other people's. So I think you'll really like them both.

[Carter Brown]

Yeah, I wrote those down. Thank you.

[Sophia]

Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible.

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[Sophia]

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[Sophia]

So the, the question is because you are on the path to it. And listen, I do think as hard as it can be to learn in public, I think it is, it's like going to grad school instead of being a junior in high school. Like, it really so much public access and input can be overwhelming, but it really can teach you so much more quickly. But I, my question really revolves around, you know, we see people who want to leave it, but they stop short of confronting these, these buckets of bigotry, if you will, racism, homophobia, transphobia, you know, sexism, even. Why, why do you think there are folks from your spiritual neck of the woods who want to leave MAGA as a movement, but who don't want to confront those issues that you just talked about. You know, you're confronting your husband's confronting with you. You, you learn the history, you see the facts and then you can't deny it anymore. Why do you think people want to stop short of really examining that stuff?

[Carter Brown]

Because I think they're so wrapped up in their religion, I, you know, I've had some friends that are like, yeah, I'm done with maga, but I'm not voting, I'm definitely not voting for blue people for the blue because they haven't deconstructed that part. They haven't deconstructed that the left is not, I don't even like to use left and right anymore. Like people that are against Trump. Here's the thing, y' all caught on to it before we did. And so like, how can, how, and so that's why I try and like position to the People that are like, no, I'm not getting down with the, the left. There's really no other way to say that. And I'm like, but they, they saw it. Like, they were able to see it before we. So, like, why are we going to discount everything else that they said? It's hard for me to know I don't have a blueprint because not everyone's doing it the way that I'm doing it. Not everyone's having the veil lifted the way that I have.

[Sophia]

Yeah.

[Carter Brown]

And so for me, I was able to have conversations really early on with queer people, with parents of children who were transgender and immigrants. Like, I was talking to all these different types of people in my comment section in my DMs, and I'm like, they're just normal people, you know, like, they're, you know, they are who they are because that's who they are. Like, not because of, you know, when you're in Christianity, you think, oh, something happened to them or, you know, whatever, or. And literally, like, that's what I thought. Yeah, go ahead.

[Sophia]

Well, I was just going to say, that's so interesting, right, that, that, that you were fed the idea that anyone who thought differently than you only thought that because they'd had less of a good life. There's so much judgment and ego in that.

[Carter Brown]

You really underestimate this whole I'm a chosen one of God that does some effed up stuff up here. Because, like, and I'll say this to Christians, because here's the thing. I still, I found a really great progressive church. It's, it's great. Like, I still, I believe in a higher power. I just, I ain't down with the dogma. I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was 4. My oldest daughter is 4. There is no way that I could ever sit her down and tell her what was said to me. And to have her understand, no, she's a baby.

[Sophia]

She wants to play make believe. It's also really interesting to me, you know, doing my, my own work on the faith side. It's funny because some, sometimes people, you know, who come from your former, former world will be like, well, you, you're like this because you're, you know, you're an activist and you love people of color and you're a queer and you're. And I'm like, I've been this way my whole life. Calm down. I actually do just love my neighbors. And in an interesting way, I, I use all the, the things I find solace in from different faith traditions. And the study of those spaces and studying theology as like a lens in. Instead of a lens to exclude. And it's funny how many evangelical people in in particular will tell me that I am the way I am because I have no relationship with God. And I'm like, my spirituality is big, but it's also mine. I don't. I don't need to advertise it to get you to, like, buy a product I'm selling on Instagram. Like, that's not. I don't use it as a brand. And I think the brand, the identity, the ideology, the. The. All of the things that fit into, like, a. That cult mentality that. That makes it so dangerous to leave makes me. I don't want to say sympathetic to it, but it makes me understand how hard it is for people to get out. I wonder two things.

[Carter Brown]

How.

[Sophia]

How you want to try to make amends to people that you know you hurt even without having meant to, and how you want to reach back into that space and try to help other people know they get to come out. So I'm just curious how. How you are navigating, doing both of those things simultaneously.

[Carter Brown]

It's funny you mentioned that. Like, I wish there was an option where I could, like, upload to MAGA audience. Upload to non mag audience.

[Sophia]

Right?

[Carter Brown]

Because it is. It's hard to, like, share my journey, share my perspective, but also try and cater to everyone.

[Sophia]

Well, you can't cater to everyone.

[Carter Brown]

I know, I know. But, like, the thing is, I started posting because I wanted to stop being depressed, and my intuition was like, hey, try this. Because I was so against going to therapy or doing anything like that. And so I did that. And then I realized, okay, I'm not posting for myself anymore. I'm posting for other people. I'm posting to give them hope. And I'm hope. Giving hope to the people that are still in maga. Like, I didn't even realize what I was doing when I did it, right? It literally was just me trying to show up for my kids better. And so aside from putting myself out there and doing that, I am monetarily giving back. I am meeting with the black candidates in Georgia to help elevate them because I now have a platform. I now have, like, across two platforms, like, 50,000 followers. And I want to figure out what I can do with that.

[Sophia]

Right. Well, and listen, that's meaningful. I got to be honest, because there are. There are women who will listen to you about those candidates who won't listen to me. You know, that's not lost on me. Maybe when you say, do you know these abortion bans are killing women, that women are losing their fertility because they're having miscarriages and Doctors won't perform DNCs and they're literally losing the ability to ever have another baby. Like, do you, they might not be willing to hear that from me, but they'll hear it from you. And so I, I do want to encourage, like, yes, you said it, you're going to make mistakes, you're not going to be perfect. But I want to encourage you to keep trying and to keep being willing to hear feedback and grow because that stuff matters. You know, we've all, we've all got friends who are experiencing these things now. You know, we see it. And I know, I mean, and you've talked about this, I know that the abortion issue, for some reason it's been made into this kind of boogeyman on the right rather than just treated as a simple facet of health care that's nobody's business. It's been turned into an issue when for some reason school shootings and kids being starved and, and all these other things, you know, lack of food stamps, lack of community support don't get through, but that does. And if someone like you can help crack that facade, it's going to be a really big deal.

[Carter Brown]

I really do believe people are asking these questions. They're wondering, they're questioning, they've seen the, they'll tilt down the rose colored glasses every now and again, see the red flags, but then want to put it right back up. But that seed of doubt was planted. And this is what I really try and impart on people is like, I really don't think it's, it's not going to be a fact. It's not going to be a statistic. It's not going to be you getting upset with them or not getting upset with them. Like, they will only hear the truth when they need to hear the truth. Like it will. The truth cannot be told. It can only be realized and it will only be realized when someone's ready. But I truly do believe what people like you have been doing for the last 10 years has been planting seeds of doubt, has been, you know, making the red flags there and apparent. But the cognitive dissonance has been too strong. But since now, everyone, like what Trump is saying with this war and what they're telling the troops, honestly, I'm like, I'm so glad I got out of this before because I can't imagine trying to be a Christian trying to justify oh okay, he's planning the Armageddon. Like what? It doesn't make any sense. It really is.

[Sophia]

And now a word from our sponsors.

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[Sophia]

Tell me if I'm alone here, Whip Smarties. But shopping used to feel more fun before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes. But I have a confession. I have found that fun feeling again on ebay. Because on ebay it's not just shopping, it's a full on fashion pursuit. And when you find the thing that adrenaline hit is real. Like when you score that rare Adidas collab that's lived on your mood board. The Dior saddlebag you ripped out of a magazine in 2007 and never got over. Or something like The Cecile Bonson XGT2160 that sold out in five seconds. Yeah, those. It's about the thrill of finding pieces that feel like me. And I want you to find pieces that feel like you. There's always more to discover. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay. Authenticity Guarantee Ebay things people love Time

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[Sophia]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation, it's also about being present with your choices and for me, present at mealtime. That's why I choose Dietz and Watson. They're a family owned and operated business and they never cut corners. Ever. I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes. Dietz and Watson have been handcrafting meats and cheeses for over 85 years. They know that good taste doesn't need a long list of ingredients. They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't. And that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great. They stick to what matters, using the fewest, highest quality ingredients to craft their meats and cheeses because that's how they've always done it. If you want a more mindful meal. Check out Dietz and Watson. Dietz and Watson. It's a family thing since 1939. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the dietz difference. That's dietzandwatson.com therightway.

[Sophia]

Okay, can I ask you a question? Because that's a really big concept that stresses me out. But you saying, like, oh, I'm glad I'm out of this while I'm watching him say these things, because it's insane. The concept behind the war is nuts when you hear what they're saying to the troops, but also the way they've gathered this rah rah sentiment for him as, like, a commander in chief. The ear incident, the supposed assassination attempted. We all know cartilage doesn't grow back. How is that being talked about in. In the world you came out of? How? Like, they didn't talk about that? Are they talking about the war and all these crazy Armageddon talking points? Like, is anything getting through?

[Carter Brown]

Well, for the last three weeks, all they talked about was Nancy Guthrie. That was all anyone talked about. Anyone that supported mine. All they talked about was, like, when I would see people that supported MAGA over the last few weeks, hoping maybe they'd be like, did you hear about the Epstein files? No. This Nancy Guthrie case, it's just so scary.

[Sophia]

Like, what is going on?

[Carter Brown]

And I remember being like, it's working.

[Sophia]

Looking at it from the outside, does everything just feel like a distraction tactic?

[Carter Brown]

Like, yes.

[Sophia]

Does everything feel like it's a cat toy to be like, look over here and don't pay attention?

[Carter Brown]

Yeah. It's all that it is 100, like. Okay, I've been meaning to tell you this because I want to see your reaction. I Learned about Project 2025 three months ago.

[Sophia]

Oh, boy. Have you seen Project Esther?

[Carter Brown]

I have.

[Sophia]

It's really bad. It's really bad for us ladies.

[Carter Brown]

Yeah. So when I say that, like. And people literally say, like, you're lying, you're lying. I'm like, why would I lie now?

[Sophia]

Like, why would I lie about. Right. Okay, so I have a question, because that's insane, and I honestly don't know what to say about it. I mean, not. I just.

[Carter Brown]

It's. I get it. Like, I get it. Yeah.

[Sophia]

It. I literally just hear a comma in my head being like, you're not hearing me. Different sets of information. So, okay, you heard about Project 2025

[Carter Brown]

three months ago in a comment on Tick Tock.

[Sophia]

Oh, boy. That was a big alarm bell, obviously, for A lot of us working. Working up to the 2024 election, especially because for. For me, I was like, guys, they're not even hiding it. Like, they printed their manifesto like a school shooter. Like, they straight up are like, this is what I'm gonna do. You guys and your families. Like, it's so crazy. So the information's not breaking through.

[Carter Brown]

No.

[Sophia]

Which then takes me to think. Like, takes me backwards to think for. You know, you talked about really wanting from here on out to be on the side of civil rights, on the side of, you know, making amends for harm and actually doing good. Does anything break through that wall? Does anything break into that evangelical space for racial disparity or racial justice?

[Carter Brown]

So I remember it was, like, 10 years ago, and this was when I left rehab, and I was dating this black guy, a son of two Nigerian immigrants. And so he, like, sort of educating me on things. And there was this. This KKK rally at Stone Mountain, Georgia, and it was like, this huge thing, and it was on the news. And I remember, like, making a post about it on my Facebook, being like, this is horrible. I can't believe this is still happening. Blah, blah, blah. And people in my life were calling me and messaging me and be like, you need to take that down. Like, you're repeating misinformation. Like, you. The. The amount of white on black crime is dis. Like, it's. It's fake news. It's not real. Like, you're. Yeah, wow.

[Sophia]

Yeah, wow. So not only is a lot of the actual news not breaking through, but when something does, you get told it's not real.

[Carter Brown]

There's a whole sect of people within that support MAGA that literally thinks that school shootings are

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fake,

[Carter Brown]

that everything is. Everything's planned, and to, like, distract you and to harness your energy. Like, it's. It's scary to leave, to, like, think that there are people that still think that way.

[Sophia]

Right.

[Carter Brown]

And I think the reason why I stopped paying attention to all that stuff is because it started to seep into me being like, okay, maybe it is all fake. Maybe it is all, like, this whole idea of, like, focusing on your family, this traditional family unit, being a tradwife and all this. Like, don't. Don't turn the news on. That's just gonna cause anxiety and stress in your life, and it's going to creep into how you raise your kids. Kids. And your kids should just be in this perfect bubble and not hear anything and.

[Sophia]

Right. Because if you, as a woman are informed, you might start to change your mind about Being unpaid labor for the, the system that all of this plays into you. You might not like the fact that everything falls on your shoulders and that you're supposed to be.

[Carter Brown]

Yeah.

[Sophia]

Docile and subservient and all the things.

[Carter Brown]

I mean, there's literally people that are like, oh, that's so weird. Ghislaine Maxwell is in prison and no one else.

[Sophia]

Yeah, she's in prison. Christy Gnomes the only one who's been fired. And that's part of it for me, right. Is like on, on my end of the information spectrum, sometimes I want to shake people and be like, do you not understand that carrying water for a white supremacist patriarchy will never benefit you? But I think.

[Carter Brown]

But those words are so triggering for them.

[Sophia]

They can't hear that. I know.

[Carter Brown]

Like, and this. So one thing I wanted to mention when you were talking about giving back. So there's this organization called Leaving Maga and it was a once Trump supporter. He left, he woke up and he created this organization. It's really great. It's honestly like a. I think once it gets large enough, it's going to be a great place for people to like softly land when they leave maga. But right now there's. It's just small. There's just a very small amount of us. And I remember asking him, like, what are your. Do you. What are your thoughts on the word cult? He's like, we really try and stray away from that. And I get it, I get why. Because, like, there's no. I remember when I first started thinking like it was a cult and I remember being like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. But now I'm like, yeah, it's a cult.

[Sophia]

Right.

[Carter Brown]

I grew up in fear based control, indoctrination. Like I just now can say all that. Like it not trigger me in any type of way. But like, other people, they cannot hear that. Yeah, they cannot hear that well.

[Sophia]

And I think that's the hard thing can be. The hard thing is when you know something and when you know the thing causes so much hurt. It's hard to be patient with people who don't know yet, because rightfully so. You're like, how could you not know this? How could you not be paying attention?

[Carter Brown]

I can't imagine the 10 years, like I've had three months and I'm like, oh, this is terrible.

[Sophia]

People always say the only way out is through. But, like, the only way you're going to get through is if you figure out how to harness a little bit of grace.

[Carter Brown]

Yeah. I keep on using the analogy that I'm a buffalo. Like I'm just going through the storm and running through it instead of waiting it out. Because that's. Yeah, I feel like I've waited it out my whole life.

[Sophia]

Yeah. If you stop again, you might get stuck again.

[Carter Brown]

Yeah.

[Sophia]

And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.

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[Sophia]

Tell me if I'm alone here. Whip Smarties. But shopping used to feel more fun before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes. But I have a confession. I have found that fun feeling again on ebay. Because on ebay it's not just shopping. It's a full on fashion pursuit. And when you find the thing that adrenaline hit is real. Like when you score that rare Adidas collab that's lived on your mood board. The Dior saddlebag you ripped out of a magazine in 22007 and never got over. Or something like The Cecile Bonson XGT2160s that sold out in five seconds. Yeah, those. It's about the thrill of finding pieces that feel like me. And I want you to find pieces that feel like you. There's always more to discover. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay. Authenticity guarantee.

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[Sophia]

You know those days when body pain just won't let you get things done well? Aleve is here to keep you moving. Whether it's a sore back after a workout, knee pain from chasing the kids around, or shoulder pain from carrying the groceries, pain has a way of slowing everything down. But a leave's got your back. With up to 12 hours of body pain relief per dose, Aleve helps you throughout your day so you can get back to doing what matters with the ones that matter most. Aleve works by reducing pain from inflammation, which makes it a great option for common aches and pains like muscle aches, back pain, joint and minor arthritis pain. Aleve is in it for the long haul from sunup to sundown, morning meetings, afternoon errands and evening plants, plans included. Try Aleve's long lasting Body pain Relief for whatever your day holds. Use as directed for minor aches and pains.

[Dr. Laurie Santos]

This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation. It's also about being present with your choices and for me, present at mealtime. That's why I choose Dietz and Watson. They're a family owned and operated business and they never cut corners. Ever. I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes. Dietz and Watson have been handcrafting meats and cheeses for over 85 years. They know that good taste doesn't need a long list of ingredients. They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't. And that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great. They stick to what matters, using the fewest, highest quality ingredients to craft their meats and cheeses because that's how they've always done it. If you want a more mindful meal, check out Dietz and Watson. Dietz and Watson. It's a family thing since 1939. Visit dietzandwatson.com the right way to learn more about the dietz difference. That's dietzandwatson.com therightway.

[Sophia]

So you can reflect back on your life. And then you've also spoken about how this is going to be a lifelong process. And you know that I'm curious what you're most looking forward to in the journey that you know is ahead.

[Carter Brown]

The first word that came to my mind was peace. Somehow I. I feel with every fiber of my being, all the way down to my pinky toes, the change is happening. Change will happen. I. The hope that I feel in my soul isn't for nothing. And the people that I've locked arms with in this journey, they all feel that hope, too. Despite it being like, what the f is are we going to wake up to today? But for some reason, I feel so hopeful that this somehow turns around, that people wake up, that the collective wake up. Like, something in me was so desperate for change. And I believe that that soul awakening will happen for everyone. And it's not. It's not your job to try and wake them up. It's their own job. Your job is to if. If you have the capacity to do so. Because I know so many people are like, I'm done with maga. Especially the. I learned the black community is like, we're done. We're done after 2024. They were like, white people. It's you. And that's what I'm. I'm realizing is. And why so many white people have reached out to me to help me in all this is because the black community is like, we're not doing this anymore.

[Sophia]

Oh, yeah. You admitting that is important for other people to hear because it's not. It's not a reality that means don't try. It's a reality that means I'm. I'm going to continue to try. And hopefully eventually you will know you're a person who can trust me. And I think that's. That's the more elevated work. That's how we act like adults and not like our dear toddlers.

[Carter Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so aware that trust is earned for sure. I mean, and I joke, I would be out on no man's land for however long I needed to in order to feel accepted. Like I would rather have no one then whatever I came from.

[Sophia]

That's really powerful when you think about what's, you know, ahead in your journey because you're. We're talking about big concepts, right? And. And service and how to shift culture and how hopefully to win elections so we can have policy that helps people instead of hurts people. Like, and then you've also got your life, your marriage, your children. I don't know if it's in the grand scheme or really granular at home, but what feels like your work in progress right now?

[Carter Brown]

My soul, I'm told all the time I grew up the same way you did, and I saw through it and, and I'm like, that was your path and this is mine. And I've accepted that my soul is a work in progress in all of this because I don't. I don't ever want to get to a point where I'm like, I'm good with. I'm done. I don't need to learn anymore. I don't need to change anymore. I don't need to adapt anymore. I don't need to reconsider anything anymore. I'm not. I will never get to that. I am committed to learning how to be better every single day.

[Sophia]

Yeah.

[Carter Brown]

And that's something I'm excited about. Like, like I said, the hope that I have, like, it's. It's just this weird feeling of like, yes, we're in a dumpster fire right now, it seems. But something in me is like, hey, there's a really, really pretty lush green pasture that you're gonna eventually meet to once you stop walking on this rock hard rubble that you're currently on. Like, it's. It's rough, it's uncomfortable, it's painful. But every now and then again, you're met with this overlook where you see where you're going. And it's like just enough hope that you need to keep on stepping on each painful stone to get to where you can take your shoes off. And it be like the grounded floor that you know you need. And like, there's no darkness around. It's completely lit up and you're not in this like terrible, dark filled, painful journey of a forest. And that's how I feel is like, I literally feel. That's what I'm in right now. But I'm constantly being, being given glimpses of where I'm going and it's worth it.

[Sophia]

Yeah. It strikes me that the way you frame it is almost that you've taken the negativity from that drug of an exclusionary faith. And your hope is that on the other side of the journey, it's actual grace applied for all people and all things.

[Carter Brown]

Yeah.

[Sophia]

I really hope it continues to feel that way for you. You know, I think it's the only

[Carter Brown]

way for me to keep on going. Like, you know, I've talked to my therapist all the time. What if I just stopped? What if I just Never shared another video. What if I deleted my account? What if I never agreed to another interview or anything? And she's like, okay, yeah, what does happen? What happens? And I know too much of what it means to live an inauthentic life. And so I had to take the risk. Yeah.

[Sophia]

I mean, you said earlier that you want to show up better for your kids, that that's your goal. You know, what, thinking about where you are today and what's coming, you know, in a few years, what do you hope your kids will come to understand about your journey? How do you hope they have a. Have better childhoods? Because they're not being trapped in that kind of indoctrination.

[Carter Brown]

My children have a spark in them and a shine so bright that I know if I stayed down on that, they would be dulled.

[Sophia]

Yeah. Like you were.

[Carter Brown]

And I can't, I can't repeat that. You know, my oldest sister who's on this journey with me, she told me about a dream she had a month or so ago, and it was every woman in our lineage standing in a line, just clapping. Ends with me. With my sister, it ends in this generation. And I'm really thankful for that.

[Sophia]

Yeah, I think being a cycle breaker is a big deal. And I think it's part of why we see this really intense swing, you know, in parts of the world to conservatism and why you see the intense amount of money, like the right is spending on indoctrinating boys in particular online. You know, you see that Gen Z boys are like, they want women subservient. They, they think good girls never initiate sex. Like all these really toxic beliefs. And I speak to the women in my life that are, you know, my sort of intergenerational friends that are in the generation between us and our parents and they're like, man, we've had one generation of pseudo equality for women and they are already spending billions of dollars to convince the men to go back. Like, we're not even all the way there yet. But if we can, if in each of our families, in each of our lives, we can break that, we can say, no, I'm not doing that. We can have healthy relationships and balance between us. I think it's a really. I think it's a really big, big deal. And I think particularly in spaces like the one that you are exiting, where the veneer of this is good for everyone has really been polished for a long time. You know, getting, getting out of that and seeing that that is not the case and that on the other side is like actual joyful partnerships and marriages and families and lives and careers and anything. If you're choosing rather than someone else telling it's a big deal because because you're right. A lot of the women that came before us didn't get that opportunity. They didn't get to choose anything. Thank you for today. This has been so special. I really appreciate you.

[Carter Brown]

I appreciated this as well. Thank you for the opportunity.

[Mint Mobile / Xolair Advertiser]

Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods while taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair this is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Anabe Sofa Advertiser]

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[Carter Brown]

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[Carter Brown]

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[Sophia]

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[Dr. Laurie Santos]

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[Sophia]

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