Tell Me Something Messy Presents: “Sophia Bush on Purpose, Partnership, and Letting Go”

Summary

Podcast Summary

Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

Episode: Tell Me Something Messy Presents: “Sophia Bush on Purpose, Partnership, and Letting Go”
Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Brandon Kyle Goodman (filling in for Sophia Bush)
Guest: Sophia Bush

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Episode Overview

This episode features Sophia Bush in a candid, wide-ranging conversation about embracing personal growth, letting go of others’ expectations, navigating queer and gender identity, honoring messy humanity, and the power of both rage and joy in tumultuous times. Overflowing with self-reflection, vulnerability, and humor, the discussion is a deep dive into living honestly, claiming your own space, and savoring both the challenges and the beauty of being a perpetual work in progress.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Tone: Embracing Messiness (03:12–05:00)

• Brandon’s “Messy Manifesto,” invoking community and compassion for the messiness of humanity, relationships, and identity.
• Establishing “foosball” as the safe word if things get too personal.
• Both Sophia and Brandon affirm the freedom to change opinions and the right to shift perspectives at any time.

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Humor and Icebreaker: “Would You Rather—Messy Dating Edition” (06:41–09:08)

• Hilarious scenario: Would you rather accidentally like someone’s thirst trap from 2015 or reply “Daddy” to their work Instagram story?
  • Both opt for the “Daddy” slip, finding it less creepy than obvious retroactive stalking.
• Quote:
  • “Ten years down in your profile is... that’s a while. That’s all of social media, isn’t it?”
    —Sophia Bush (08:16)

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Language, Gender, and Respect (09:15–12:44)

• Discusses gendered compliments such as “Daddy,” “Ma’am,” and navigating terms for nonbinary friends.

• Sophia reflects:

  • The importance of asking people how they feel about language instead of assuming group preferences.
  • “Deal with the person in front of you as opposed to the group at large.” (11:50)

• Brandon points out that intentional connection is required in a genderless world—a good thing, but more work.

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Gender Norms, Freedom, and Societal Boxes (12:44–15:32)

• Sophia:
  • “What you do is challenge the box everyone has been cultured to be in... Your totality of being intimidates people who cannot imagine freedom that in their current existence is undefined.” (13:10)
• Examines societal discomfort and fear around trans and nonbinary identity—a reflection of fear of freedom itself.
• Debates the notion that gender roles are “DNA”—Sophia calls binary gender “bad marketing.”
  • Quote:
    • “The binaries, the prescriptions, the demands placed on people come from culture, 1,000%. And so that’s part of what drives me crazy—this is just marketing... bad marketing.”
      —Sophia Bush (14:49)

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Self-Discovery and Sitting with Discomfort (15:32–20:46)

• Invites listeners (and each other) to “sit in the versions of yourself,” especially during change and evolution.
• Observes that society reduces queer/gender-nonconforming people to “a sex object” due to discomfort with broader identity.
  • “Our identities are so much richer and more curious than just who we sleep with.” (17:43)

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Acceptance, Rage, and Personal Evolution (18:43–22:18)

• Brandon: Radical acceptance that "some people really may not want to explore who they are. I don’t have to adopt their pain as my own." (19:20)

• Sophia:

  • Shares her own growth in learning to hold both softness and sacred rage—“I spent so much time in my life thinking that anger, frustration... were wasting my time. But to continually turn your back on half of yourself... is a self-betrayal. It took me 40 fucking years to figure that out.” (20:03–20:46)

• Describes her recent realization that “settling for crumbs when I was serving feasts” is self-betrayal and decided to “drop the rock and become the water.” (21:29–22:18)

  • Memorable Moment:
    “I dropped the rock and then I jumped in the river and I became water.”
    —Sophia Bush (22:10)

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Letting Go of Other People’s Perceptions (25:52–27:14)

• Discussion about discarding people who are in love with the “idea of you” rather than the real you.

  • Sophia: “I cut out every ‘idea of you’ person in my life over the last ten years.” (27:22)

• Challenges “good girl syndrome” and the exhaustion of performing goodness to meet societal and family expectations.

  • Memorable Quote:
    “To be frantic in your soul... is exhausting.”
    —Sophia Bush (29:28)

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Family Dynamics & Breaking Generational Patterns (29:36–34:10)

• Brandon shares his experience estranged from his mother and breaking free from the need to prove he’s “good.”
• Sophia:
  • “Most parents... want their children to be their children—they don’t want their children to be born of them and go out into the world as the beings they are.” (31:34)
  • Frames individuation and breaking the parent’s “ownership” as a generational curse all children must break.

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Navigating the Transition Generation (34:10–36:32)

• Discusses being in the “crossroads” generation: one foot in pre-internet, one in a hyper-connected world, with access to mental health support their parents lacked.
• Theme: Balancing the need to “shine your light” vs. fear of visibility in a society that polices difference.

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The Power of Listening to the Body (36:32–39:21)

• Sophia shares therapist advice:
  • “Pay attention to your body. Do you react to this with expansion or contraction? Do you breathe in or do you exhale?” (37:17–37:40)
• Major takeaway: Each rung of self-awareness is like climbing a ladder—start with baby steps (“learning to hit the ball” of self-understanding).

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Messy Mail: Listener Letters, Advice, & Quick Hits (53:22–61:15)

Notable Questions & Sophia’s Wisdom:

• Listener faked moving to Spain to avoid a friend group after a messy breakup:
  • Sophia: “That is so bold!”—urges more context and pokes fun at the charade.
• Thirst trap gone wrong: accidentally posting an ex in the background.
  • Sophia: “You just have to be honest about your life to your bestie... Accept it, make it funny, and move on.” (57:09)
• Should I Venmo a guy back for two date dinners after I stopped texting?
  • Sophia: “If you’re doing it to be petty because you got your feelings hurt, you deserve petty in response.” (60:26)

On Finding Your Queer Voice (61:15–68:32):

• Listener struggles with late-blooming queer identity, feeling like they “should” know more.
  • Sophia: “You’re not going to get in the MLB if you’ve never picked up a baseball. You have to try. You have to practice. You deserve to explore.” (62:05)
  • Emphasizes there’s no rush: “Rushing is how you wake up one day in a house that isn’t yours... The undoing when you’ve gone too fast is a lot shittier than going slow.” (66:45)
  • Brandon: “Your version of queerness may have never existed—the world needs what you authentically build.” (65:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Sophia Bush:

• “You are allowed to be both a masterpiece and a work in progress, simultaneously.”
• “I dropped the rock and jumped in the river and I became water.” (22:10)
• “Slow is fast.” (69:53)
• “To be frantic in your soul is exhausting.” (29:28)
• “Rushing is how you wake up one day in a house that isn’t yours.” (68:45)
• “What I love about finding my courage first for our community is that it led me to be courageous for myself.” (71:29)
• “You deserve to cook a beautiful dinner. You deserve to go out dancing too late with your friends. It is medicine.” (48:07)

Brandon Kyle Goodman:

• “Your rage is actually a beautiful indicator of when change needs to happen or when you are out of alignment.”
• “Intentional connection is required in a genderless world—a good thing, but more work.” (12:41)
• “Your soul is trying to come back to itself. But the GPS of generational cycles, personal habits, and scarcity mindset is leading you somewhere else.” (34:10)

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Important Timestamps

• Messy Manifesto, Safe Word: 03:12–05:28
• Would You Rather (Dating Edition): 06:41–09:08
• Gender Language, Intent & Identity: 09:15–12:44
• Fear of Gender Freedom/Marketing of Gender: 12:44–15:32
• Self-Betrayal & Letting Go: 20:03–22:18
• Good Girl Syndrome & Family Wounds: 25:52–34:10
• Body Awareness as Compass: 36:32–39:21
• Messy Mail Section: 53:22–61:15
• Advice Corner (“Slow is Fast”): 69:24–69:54
• Sophia’s Favorite Thing About Herself: 70:54–73:15

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is deeply vulnerable, at times philosophical, always honest—balanced by laughter, quick wit, and warmth between Brandon and Sophia.

• Self-Love and Growth: Embrace every “unfinished” version of yourself.
• Practice Radical Acceptance: Some people won’t go on the journey with you; love them anyway, but don’t carry their pain.
• Let Go of Perfectionism: If it feels like exhale—lean in. If your body contracts—explore why.
• Slow Down: Moving quickly through life or identity is a recipe for regret; building intentionally is true progress.
• Honor Both Rage and Joy: Sacred rage (not violence) and joy both have space—holding both is the path to healing.

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Ideal Listeners

This episode is especially resonant for anyone questioning gender/queerness, processing family wounds, straining under the weight of perfectionism, or seeking courage to let go and chart their own course. Sophia and Brandon’s affirmations and hard-won wisdom will encourage you to release societal scripts, slow down, and live more authentically—mess and all.

Transcript

[Sophia Bush]

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[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You're listening to Tell Me Something Messy with Brandon Kyle Goodman. An iHeart podcast on the Outspoken network talking about relationships, sex and identity always reminds me that being a human is messy. So I wanted to create a compassionate space where we could feel less alone and embrace our mess together. The funny, the vulnerable, the cringe, and even the kinky. Because every part of who we are matters. So don't be shy, baby. Tell me something messy. Messy patrons. Come on, baby. Welcome to the show. I am your messy mom, Brandon Kyle Goodman. And you know what that means. It is time for a guest. Now, while they get situated, we will get our messy kiki started with a whole manifesto. So repeat after me aloud or in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to know that sex is not about penetration, the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength to not call my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or fuck they. For it is better to masturbate by myself in peace than to let someone play in my motherfucking face. Let the whole immunity say Holelujah, baby. Today our mess is blessed because we've got the incredible, the one and only Sophia Bush in our messy living room. Now, you know her from One Tree Hill, Good Sam, and a million other things. But listen, this woman is more than just a TV queen. She's an activist, a story, a truth teller. Honestly, she is a walking heart with a megaphone. She's smart, she's fierce, and she's messy. Just like us. Okay, we started with a loo breaker, but then we couldn't help ourselves. We dive deep into our mess fast. Please enjoy my conversation with Sophia Bush. Hi, Sophia. Oh, my goodness. Welcome to the messy living room.

[Sophia Bush]

How are you? But it's not.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's not. Well, we bring the mess. That's the thing. We are. We are the mess. Oh, no, it's.

[Sophia Bush]

It's us. You're like, it's me. Hi.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's me, honey. Hi. I'm the mess. Well, before we get our messy kiki started, we have our messy mandates, which is. I know it by heart, but I'm still gonna read it. I like that things get to be unprocessed.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Any opinions shared have the right to shift change today, tomorrow, 10 years from now, forever. Period. Right.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And if during the Kiki, something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the safe word foosball, which gives us the chance. Right. Do you play foosball?

[Sophia Bush]

I mean, like, anywhere I see a table, you want to play, but I don't.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I didn't know what foosball really was until I started the show because I said foosball is the safe word, which gives us a chance to pause and pivot accordingly. And then somebody was. I thought. I. I don't know what I thought it was, but it's the men on the table. Yeah. The Lakes. Soccer, I think. I thought it was, like, table soccer, but I guess it's called foosball, so.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

So I always say, if foosball is mentioned on this show, something is clearly wrong. Why are we ever talking about foosball?

[Sophia Bush]

Fair point.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Except for now. Fair point.

[Sophia Bush]

Not really in the context of our.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Not really in the context. Sports are not really in the context. Context, but who knows? Let me. Let me not limit myself.

[Sophia Bush]

Maybe don't limit yourself.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Maybe we'll expand. Maybe. I'm gonna do a full episode about foosball.

[Sophia Bush]

I can't wait.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

With a foosball table.

[Sophia Bush]

I want you to know what I want is for you to do a full episode where you try to live commentate a game with an actual athlete.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

See how it goes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That kind of sounds fun.

[Sophia Bush]

Thank you.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I love that. Because I will know nothing, but I will say everything because I'll have opinions.

[Sophia Bush]

Of course.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Speaking of sportball, which. I don't know if this is a great segue, but shall we do a lube breaker? Ooh.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay. I was like, which game are we gonna play?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

We're gonna play. We're gonna play a new game this season. Would you rather it's gonna be Dating Edition? Messy Dating Edition. So I'll give you prompts, and you'll tell me which one you would rather.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Okay.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I'm scared.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh, don't be scared.

[Sophia Bush]

It's not about people. It's.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

No, no, no, no, no. Always a scenario. We're always scenarios.

[Sophia Bush]

We're not really mean.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Exactly. We're not mean girls here.

[Sophia Bush]

No, I'm kidding.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Turn this off and we'll talk to.

[Sophia Bush]

Offend someone is my worst nightmare.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Makes me shake.

[Sophia Bush]

My best friend will literally be like, let the joke land. Before you apologize for making the joke, just let it. Let me laugh.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Let me enjoy it. I know, I know, but, like, you're like, I want to. I just want you to know this is not how I think. It's just a joke.

[Sophia Bush]

It's just a. Haha. Yeah, yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's a heheha. Anyways.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay, okay.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

This will be. This will be very painless. Okay, so would you rather accidentally, like, a thirst trap from 2015 or reply Daddy to their Instagram story meant for work? And by the way, Daddy. I think anyone can be a daddy. But, you know, so it's like. But it is a daddy. Daddy.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

So which one would you rather.

[Sophia Bush]

Wait, their Instagram story meant for or.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Their Instagram thirst trap from 2015? So, you know, you've been. That means you've been.

[Sophia Bush]

You were really on the scroll.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You were really on the scroll and you accidentally double tapped and liked their Instagram. Their thirst trap from 2015. Or would you rather accidentally reply to their story Daddy, Even though that story was meant for work?

[Sophia Bush]

I would choose Daddy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You would choose Daddy? Yeah. What I choose. I would choose Daddy, too, because the 2015 makes me feel like a stalker.

[Sophia Bush]

Ten years down in your profile is.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's a while. That's all of social media, isn't it?

[Sophia Bush]

To some things.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. And I'm not saying that I'm opposed to going that far down to figure out who you are.

[Sophia Bush]

Sure.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

But I won't let you know.

[Sophia Bush]

No, I. Yeah, that would feel weird to me. I personally wouldn't think anything of it. I feel like, ooh, cute.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, send it to me and be like, this was a good haircut on you. Something.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, sure.

[Sophia Bush]

But I know how it would be perceived in the world.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh, interesting.

[Sophia Bush]

And I. I. Yeah, I wouldn't. I don't think I'd want to do that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

So I think that I would if. If I. And that's happened where people like, like things from a really long time ago, and I think my reaction's always like, huh, you found it. But my fear is that somebody's like, you're a stalker wife this far.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, why are you being.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Why are you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I think we both. I would. I would also say. I would rather say Daddy.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And why not?

[Sophia Bush]

What a compliment.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay.

[Sophia Bush]

People say it to me. I'm like, thank you, period. Appreciate it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You know what I don't like? And I've said, you know, I'm non binary. And people sometimes like to say they D. And I'm like, I don't know if they D. It doesn't do the.

[Sophia Bush]

Same thing as Daddy doesn't have a nice mouth feel.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. It's like, what's a they? I don't know. Like. But daddy does it.

[Sophia Bush]

But this is something I actually find really interesting. Tell me 4 my non binary friends.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Especially when we were just talking about this with like scenarios you can and cannot walk into.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

As a very femme presenting woman.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I have a different experience in the world than you do.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

In this.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

All strong, athletic body.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I'm curious as a person who is in their spirit enough to say, oh, I'm everything.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

How do you then receive terms like that that are obviously met as a compliment? Like if someone were to be like, daddy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Does that. Does that bump you? Because it feels too gendered.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Too gendered. It doesn't. You know, one of my friends has the best saying. She's like, I'll accept any pronoun said with respect. And so I think that like a daddy that said with respect. And that's not like, oh, I know that you hate this or whatever is totally fine. Like, I. It's weird language for me. Has fluidity to it where it's like, you know, like it's really about your intention behind it more. So. So no, I'm. I'm. Call me daddy, but also call me mommy. I mean, they call me messy mommy.

[Sophia Bush]

Messy mommy's a nice thing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Call me whatever, but not they deep.

[Sophia Bush]

Cause that also just feels like you're trying too hard.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

It's like, this is actually why the people who don't like us don't like us. Because you're doing dumb shit like that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You're like, it's just like too much.

[Sophia Bush]

It's too much. Pull it back.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Pull it back, love.

[Sophia Bush]

I. It's really interesting to me because I've thought about it with a lot of my girlfriends and I. However it came to be, Ma' am turned into our word.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Sort of like, daddy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Someone walks in looking gorgeous and it's ma'. Am.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, how dare you give me a warning? And I reacted that way to another non binary friend of mine.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Because they walked in the room just looking so gorgeous and I was like, ma'.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Am.

[Sophia Bush]

And then I was like, sorry, but am I. And I realize it's one of those things to your point to have enough respect for your people. Ask how they feel about things.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And then to know that not everyone in any group is going to feel the same, that is the biggest part.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Absolutely. That's what I always say. Like, this is my experience and how I receive it. But somebody else might love Thady or somebody else might love Ma'. Am. And you kind have to deal with the person in front of you as opposed to the group at large. I think that is the interesting thing about. While we about to go into this about just gender norms in general, I was thinking about what if we lived in a world that was actually genderless? There was no boys or girls or man or woman. You just kind of were Sophia and Brandon. What would that kind of open up in all of us? But there's more work there. You actually have to intentionally connect with people to find out who they are. Whereas these group, these labels allow us to just shorthand. Yeah. And allow us, I think, a little more disconnection.

[Sophia Bush]

Absolutely.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You know, so I don't. You know, I don't. It's more work. But I. But I like. I like that my gender identity and expression forces more connection.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You know, forces more like, let's ask questions.

[Sophia Bush]

But I think that's why there is such a hysteria around trans folks.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Non binary.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Because what you do is challenge the box everyone has been cultured to be in and agreed to be in consciously and unconsciously for their entire existence. Your totality of being intimidates people who cannot imagine freedom that in their current existence is undefined.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It is.

[Sophia Bush]

It scares them.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's scary for them. Yeah. It's literally the tension is about freedom. It's about, like, I've been told I'm supposed to act like this, and so what have I cut myself off from because of that? And how dare you not follow the same rules that I'm following?

[Sophia Bush]

How dare you be so free.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

That your freedom scares me. Because I don't know what that feels like.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And how dare you engage me in that or demand that I engage in your freedom or respect your freedom. Like, we're all doing this. You gotta do this. And it's like, no, I think everyone gets to be who they are. But even that is also scary. Like, if I did say, hey, the same freedom I have, you can have. But that requires. That requires a lot of reflection and a lot of talking, a lot of curiosity, a lot of putting things together. And I think there's a safety in the blueprint. There's a safety in following a blueprint that was passed on from our Lineage or from society. And there's a scariness in building your own.

[Sophia Bush]

But what drives me crazy about this notion that it's a blueprint.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

That it's our DNA, that we're somehow challenging is that it's not.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's definitely not. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

It's not. The. The true experience of humans to exist on a spectrum.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Is in our DNA.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

The. The. The binaries, the prescriptions, the demands.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Placed on people come from culture 1,000%. And they didn't used to be like this even in our own current cultures.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And so that's part of what drives me crazy, is I'm like, oh, this is just marketing. And it's bad marketing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Say it again. It is just marketing.

[Sophia Bush]

It's bad marketing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Terrible. It's marketing that allows us to play our position for the powers that be.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

As opposed to I think what a lot of us, or I think what all of us. Let's say that what most of us in the queer community are trying to do, I think in its pure ideal is reclaim. You know, is reclaim the freedom that I think we all had, regardless of our gender or our sexual orientation. It's like, how do you reclaim the ability to choose. Choose who you want to be? And how do you get comfortable being uncomfortable with not knowing who it is? Well.

[Sophia Bush]

And how do you sit in the versions of yourself?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

The versions. Yes.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

You are.

[Sophia Bush]

When you are in a moment of evolution and you say, like, this almost fits.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

This almost feels right.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

But it doesn't.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. You know, there's more inspection that I have to do, more investigation that I have to do.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And you have to make it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You have to create it in a way to find what it's always been. I think that dichotomy is very scary for people. They just. They want you to tell them the answer so that the unknown, the fear of the unknown can go away. And it's part of why I find, especially for our communities.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, everyone in the queer community, people are so obsessed with sexualizing. Queer people. They call it your sexual identity, your gender identity, Referring to your genitalia.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Everything when you are not cishet.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Has to be about the sex part 1000%, because the expansion of identity is scary. So they actually try to reduce each person's individual identity to a. To a sex object.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And how crazy is that? When you really, like, think about it, you're like, I'm just. I'm. I'm my. I'm my dick. Like, I'm who I. I'm who I like to fuck. Like no.

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's like the smallest part of.

[Sophia Bush]

And then they'll do the thing where they. Nobody cares who you're sleeping with. And it's like, well, we all have had the press tailing these people around town, so it seems like you really wanna figure out who they're sleeping with. Seems like you really care. We don't particularly care. Yeah, it's like the least interesting thing about any of us, but it's the only thing y' all out there wanna talk about.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

How do you. I mean like, it's really weird. And I see it also in Hollywood and even like selling things. You're just like, if there's not a coming out story, they don't know what to do with it. And I'm like, I. Once you come out, you did it. And there's so much more to our existence after coming out. And there's so much like, even when I'm with my gay friends, not like we're sitting down talking about sex the whole time. As sex positive as I am. We're talking about so many things. There's so many experiences, life, art, existence.

[Sophia Bush]

Family, you know, and the humanity. Right. And that's what's interesting to me. Cause if you look at, you know, the 56 year old white straight CEO guy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Nobody is asking him to solely talk about the sex he has with his wife or you know, we all saw Internet last week.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Nobody's asking that. No, nobody's talking to those people about that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

But for some reason when you are any, when you are any of the Alphabet letters in, in the, you know, under the big beautiful queer umbrella.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Everybody just, they can't figure out how that's not the center of your universe. And you're like, well actually my universe is just bigger, richer, freer, more curious. I have self interrogated myself in ways you might not have had to. And I don't say that judgmentally, I say it as an offering. Would you like to.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Would you like to explore who you are?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And you know what's scary is that some people, the answer is no. The answer is no. And like I think as queer people making peace with that, like part of my pride and self acceptance is knowing that some people really in this lifetime may not want to and like kind of letting them be and that. Cause somebody was asking how I remain soft and I think it's like a radical acceptance. It's a radical acceptance that like everyone's navigating a Whole bunch of shit. And in this lifetime, they may not have the capacity to explore who they are and I don't have to adopt their pain as my own.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. I think the most radical thing you can do is see people for who they are and where they are and love them anyway.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Olivia, you're my mind. You're my brain. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And for me, learning to do that in the most interesting way has made me so much softer and so much more loving and so much more angry. Like my. When I am angry about what's happening to us in the world, it's not like, like pissy anger. It's.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

No, no, it's rage. Yeah. It's like sacred rage. I love that. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Come. Come to me in the lineage of what women are on the planet.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

You'll find my rage there.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

You know?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And I. I cherish the growth in both directions because I spent so much time in my life thinking that anger, frustration, pain, victimization, the bad that happens to all of us.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

That if I spent time there, if I doted on those feelings the way I doted on the positive, I was wasting my time or not being my highest self. And what I realized is that to continually turn your back on half of yourself, on the dark that goes with your light, is a self betrayal. And it took me 40 fucking years to figure that out.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. How did you figure that out?

[Sophia Bush]

I finally had to come to terms with realizing that some of what I had excused in the most sacred inner sanctum of my life was not a badge of honor for my ability to compromise. It was betraying myself and taking less and less in return for what I consistently choose to give. I wasn't being mature. I wasn't doing the grown up thing. I wasn't settling down.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I was settling for crumbs when I was serving feasts. And I went, yes, I'm done.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And everybody's gonna have something to say.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Everybody's gonna think they know why.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And everybody will do the thing that people love to do to women in the world.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Blame, blame, blame. And I. I know what's real. I know what's true. And I. I know I have finally learned to stop the Sisyphean task of pushing the boulder up the rock all day, every day, like my life.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

I dropped the rock and then I jumped in the river and I became water.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Annabe sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. Annabe has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Sofas start at just $699 and right now get early access to Black Friday savings up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Hey audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and walking encyclopedia Questlove, we're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir Night how to be a DJ in 90s New York City. All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that gives you the most control? So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other after 20 years or 25 years. The Beatles broke up in seven and a half years and we're going on 35. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

I don't know about you guys, but I love to buy gifts. I love it so much. I love it so much more than getting gifts. But the one thing that I do love, especially when it comes to my daughter, is getting matching things. I know it's such a cliche, but I love it so much. So I have the perfect brand for you. Pandora Jewelry can make their holiday unforgettable with the gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle, but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings. This season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member, say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Forget everything you had planned for this weekend because you are sitting on your couch and winning from the comfort of your own home. I'm here with spinquest, where you can play hundreds of slot games, all the table games you love, and you could even win real cash prizes. New users, thirty dollar coin packs are on sale for ten and at spinquest.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[Sophia Bush]

Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list, it's no small feat, but with TJ Maxx, your magic multiplies with quality finds. Arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on luxe cashmere, the latest tech toys and more. So you can check off off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads. Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic. It's TJ Maxx, of course. It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday. Giving up other people's perceptions. This is what you do. This is how you do it. This is what it means. This is what it looks like.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And finding it for yourself and finding out what you think, what you want, as opposed to, like being the good woman or the good man or the.

[Sophia Bush]

Good idea or good girl syndrome.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh, my God, it really is. It really is. And it's all rooted in optics. I mean, I say that. I kept saying to a friend of mine, optics are a cage. Like, we're so concerned about how other people will perceive it, as opposed to, what does it mean to us that we then rob ourselves or cut ourselves off and, like, leave half of ourselves outside the room? As opposed to saying, this is what it is.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And when I am who I am, I actually attract the best people ever.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Like attract the people that are for you, as opposed to people who like the idea of you.

[Sophia Bush]

I cut out every idea of you person in my life over the last 10 years.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yo. I bet that felt so.

[Sophia Bush]

Thankfully, I said thank you. Yeah, yeah. But we have evolved past.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Hindsight is 20 20.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Absolutely. Of course. And you needed it. You needed it to get here.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. But I can go, oh, I see what drew you to me. I see what part of my job you wanted a connection to.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Part of whatever, whatever. And then I think about people that are, like, really famous. I'm like, how does, like, how does Jennifer Aniston go anywhere? You know what I mean?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

How does Beyonce.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like, obviously she can't go anywhere.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, I. I don't know how those sorts of people do it. I know even for us, in the relative notoriety, lack of anonymity we have, you have to start to identify. Like, moth to flame is not always a good thing. I don't want my house infested with bugs.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I heard somebody say a lot of shit is attracted to the light. A lot of shit is attracted to the light. It doesn't mean that it's good for you. And you have to be able to build, I guess, a holder around your flame and understand, like, who's allowed to be in that space with you.

[Sophia Bush]

Well. And I think when you are subjected to society's demand for you to be good.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Which women are.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Good girl syndrome is tough.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

I know. As a beautiful black human in the world.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, like you are expected to do twice as much to prove your goodness.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Oh, my God.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, you, you have to behave differently than someone in your exact body. My skin would. In the face of an interaction with a police officer.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Going to get a small business loan, whatever it might be. And when you are constantly existing, trying to prove to people that you're good, that is to be frantic in your soul is exhausting.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Sophia, you came here to preach, and I'm living to be frantic in your soul.

[Sophia Bush]

In your soul. And you probably don't even realize that's how you are in the world.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I. This Last Thanksgiving or Thanksgiving 2024, I got freed from my good person syndrome. I like, realized, you know, and it's not. It's like it's been a 15 year journey, particularly with my family. So I've been estranged from my mother for like 15. She's a born again Christian, doesn't like the gays and all that stuff, or has a problem with my homosexuality. And so I had to create a really heavy boundary between us, which ended up becoming kind of, not kind of no contact, very low contact, but what was playing in the back of my head, because she would say it sometimes, and I think it was a way to keep me in my place. Like, oh, you're arrogant. Or it would just, like, question my. When I wasn't following in line with her, then I was a problem. If I ever showed individuation or if my light got a little too bright, then I was full of myself. And I think that stayed with me. And so in all of my interactions, I was hypervigilant about being good, but afraid that there was a part of me that was secretly bad and I don't know what it was. But finally, I think seeing my mother's pain, like, finally getting to a place where I could really hold that, like, my mom is a human and went through some things and like, is not a bad person. Not perfect, but not perfect. And like, had her whatever. I think it freed me from the pedestal I had her on. Cause when you put somebody on a pedestal, you think, well, what they're saying is law. And it's very natural for us to feel that, especially with our parents. But then when you go, oh, no, that was just. That's also just a wounded child who then had a child and maybe didn't know what to do with that child. Especially one who is. Yeah. As wild as I am.

[Sophia Bush]

But I think there's a really interesting. There's a few things that are true at the same time.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

In. In my experience and in what all my people are experiencing in this life.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Which is our parents didn't have any of the resources we have. No one was talking about mental health that anything. They were hyper. Stigmatizing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Still a stigma in many parts of the country and the world. They couldn't go online to read about the parentified child syndrome or childhood trauma or CBT techniques to get out of your anxiety. And I think they were still carrying what feels like an old world, but is clearly still everywhere expectation, perhaps inheritance of parenthood, which is. And I just watched someone talk about this yesterday. I will pull the video and send it to you. Which is that most parents, whether they realize it or not, have children because they want their children to be their children. They don't want their children to be born of them or parented by them, brought into their home and to go out into the world as the beings they are. And so I think particularly for people who can step into the totality of their identity for trans folks, non binary folks, you are so you that whether she's conscious of it or not, you have shattered her desire to have something that's hers.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And that's a generational curse.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Every child needs to break.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Yes. It's a. Oof. I'm gonna take a. I wanna take a little beat to let that. To let that sit. Because you really. Go ahead.

[Sophia Bush]

No, like I'm just thinking about it for you. Even. Even what you were saying about getting a little smaller in her company.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

The idea that your light, which is inherently so big, that it does inspire others, attract others, help lead others, help free others. Could be a bad thing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Is diametrically opposed from reality and why it's such a beautiful thing. But again, full circle. I think it's why you see so much fear and fear mongering about gender expansive people in the country right now. Because the freedom is so big that it shines light on everything we've tried to keep in the dark corners of our society.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It makes you ask questions and questions are scary for people. It disrupts things. We always talk about disruptive curiosity here, which is for me intentionally asking questions that interrupt your GPS so you can live a liberated life. And the gps, I always say, is generational cycles, personal habits and your scarcity mindset. I always say your soul is trying to come back to itself. But the GPS of that generational cycles, the personal habits and the scarcity mindset is leading you towards the blueprint. It's leading you somewhere else. And it's like you need that curiosity which I think queer folks have, trans folks, non binary, which is to interrupt that so you can actually be free. But that is scary. And I think my work has been to know that it's not actually scary, but it might be scary for them and be, I guess, empathetic about that and give grace, maybe that's a better word, like give grace to. In this journey. That's where they are. And you know, for our generation, I always, I'm saying this to my friends, like our parents didn't have the therapy or the access and we do. And so the next generation coming up will know what mental health is their entire life. But we have this, I don't wanna call it a weight, it's not a burden. But we do have this like thing to take up, which is the crossroads. It's like the transition, you know, like we're the generation that knew life before the Internet and new life with the.

[Sophia Bush]

Internet, you know, it's stretched across two years.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, yes.

[Sophia Bush]

It's very unique to us.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's absolutely unique and also difficult. And so I think it can be scary to want to shine your light because there is so much telling you not to and yet there is so much telling you to and having take a chance and leap out on faith that like if it makes you. I always like if it, if it feels good and you can't even understand why, it's still probably something to pursue. If it feels like you're exhaling and even though you can't articulate why, it's probably something to run towards and if it makes you feel like this and you don't know why, get out of there. You don't need to articulate it quite yet, but if it feels off, get out of there or make a boundary there or put something there so you can really nurture the parts of you exhaling.

[Sophia Bush]

That is the most profound thing. Because before. Before I had the. Oh, I don't have to push the rock. I can be the water. Before I put it down, I. The unease in my body was everywhere. And. And, you know, they phrase like, you. You can't see the forest for the trees.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

In it. And you're like, what is this? What is this? Something's wrong.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And for me, the. One of the best gifts that my therapist gave me, going through the whole process, was pay attention to your body. Stop asking the big questions. Stop asking what's wrong.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Stop, stop. Stop saying I. I feel this way in my house and being told, this isn't reality, but I feel it, and I feel crazy. Like, you're. You're up here in the big concepts. Start to listen to your body. Do you react to this with expansion or contraction? Do you. Do you breathe in or do you exhale?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And that is how I learned those were my baby steps. Like the journey you're talking about, it's easier for you to see. Let's use your mom as the example.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You are 15 years into a journey by now. You are an expert by now. You are like the professional sportball athlete of your journey.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Your mom doesn't know how to hit the ball.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

That's a big chasm.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

What I've realized in every rung on the ladder of life, I have climbed. When I. When I get to one, that's like a big life discovery season.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm learning something new. I couldn't have talked about that the last five years of my life this way without having worked through them. But the way I started to find the language was learning to hit the ball. Going. Am I relaxing or tightening?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Am I contracting when I hear this or when this person comes in the room, or am I expanding? That's how I learned the language. That's how I learned to climb.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

But what's so important, what you're saying, and I try to remind people, is that it is learning a new language. And when you learn a new language, you gonna fuck it up. You know what I'm saying? It's gonna be hard. It's gonna be frustrating, but I always say it's temporary discomfort to lead to ever.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. And by the way, you're probably gonna go through it every Five to ten years.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh, baby.

[Sophia Bush]

You get to the net, you're like, I did it. I did it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

No, baby.

[Sophia Bush]

And then you get over the hill and you're like, oh, there's another one.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

I thought this was the mountaintop and there's just a whole other mountain.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

There's another way.

[Sophia Bush]

You couldn't see it from down there.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

But if you had been able to see it, you probably wouldn't have tried to climb at all.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Exactly. It's remembering. A friend of mine said this when I first moved here. She was like, the journey is the goal. And I keep reminding, especially artists, it's like if you don't understand or accept the journey as the goal, then when you get the thing, when you get the job, you're just gonna want the next one. You're just gonna keep focusing on the accomplishments.

[Sophia Bush]

You're not gonna enjoy it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You're not gonna enjoy it. And you have to, you have to experience it. Ew. Yeah. Sofia, by the way, you won the game. We were playing the game. Would you rather. And you won.

[Sophia Bush]

I forgot that's where we started.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It is. This is what I love about this is what I love about this show. It's like wherever it takes us, it takes us.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anabe sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. Annabe has designed the only fully machine washable sofa. From top to bottom, the stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Anna Bay has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Sofas start at just $699 and right now get early access to Black Friday Savings up to 6.60percent off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop now at washablesofas.com Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Hey everyone, Ed Helms here and hi, I'm Cal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I am sitting down with with Jennie Garth, host of the iHeart podcast, I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a Trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Sophia Bush]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

I don't know about you guys, but I love to buy gifts. I love it so much. I love it so much more than getting gifts. But the one thing that I do love, especially when it comes to my daughter, is getting matching things. I know it's such a cliche, but I love it so much. So have the perfect brand for you. Pandora Jewelry can make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle, but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member, say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I'm here with Spinquest where you can play and win from the comfort of your own home with hundreds of slot games and all of the table games you love with real cash prizes. Right now, thirty dollar coin packs are on sale for $10 dollars. For new users, it's [e-mail] that's S-P-I-N Q U-E-T.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[Sophia Bush]

Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list. It's no small feat, but with TJ Maxx, your magic multiplies with quality finds arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on luxe cashmere, the latest tech toys and more. So you can check off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads. Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic. It's TJ Maxx. Of course. It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Sophia, do you wanna tell us something messy?

[Sophia Bush]

Something messy?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Or like, it could be a personal story, something you heard, or it could be a hot.

[Sophia Bush]

I mean, our government is messy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

There you go. Let's talk about it.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, yeah, I was about to Be like, you know what's really funny for a person who's as organized as I am. And my. Literally, my closet's Claire coordinated.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And everything has a place in a drawer. My nightstand is so messy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Really. Oh, my God.

[Sophia Bush]

It's just always. There's like, three drink containers, a glass of, you know, the rest of last night's wine that I decided not to finish. Brushed my teeth, and then was like, why did I carry this in here? Like, there. Every vitamin. I've done 12 books, three journals.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Do you read all different books at the same time or, like, one at a time?

[Sophia Bush]

It depends.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It depends. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Sometimes I have to read, like, four at a time, and then sometimes I'm so engrossed. But I need the options. Like, I always have three books in my carry on bag. Even if I'm going on a trip for four days.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

This is my. I've learned that this is a thing and I've just started it where I'm like, I have, like, my four books. I can't help it. Yeah. Cause you're like. It's like a TV show. You're like, I'm in the mood for a drama today, but tomorrow I'm in the mood for a little comedy. And so you need your books to have.

[Sophia Bush]

I just need them.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

To have them.

[Sophia Bush]

Even if I don't open any of them.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

I need to know they're there. So that's my, like, personal mess.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my God. The world is.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Baby. How are you taking care of yourself in the middle of all. I mean, that's such a hard question. And I'm sure you feel. I feel this, like, the dichotomy of watching the world burn and also still having to go to work, still having to do things like this. And you're, like, still having to look cute, and you're just like, wait, what are we looking cute for?

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like, huh, huh. The blow dryer. Seems like a stupid invention.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Seems really crazy right now.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I think in a really odd way, it used to make me insane.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like terrible president term one insane.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Now, again, it's practice, right?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And as. As the. As my capacity to hold the dialectics, the things that are absolutely oppositional but true at the same time. Expand.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

That. That is the. For me, feels like my personal journey in life to continue to be able to hold more things to be true and hold them tenderly. So in a weird way, it's so much worse than it was the first time around.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like, Remember, y' all didn't read Project 2025. We told you what was in it. And then you told us we were crazy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. And now here we are.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, it makes me crazy. I activate by sharing, by standing up, by never being silent, by calling people to action, by reminding people of collective power. Those on the other side. Like the very worst thing that could happen in the country happens to people and around the world.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I am in love with the best person I know who has the two most beautiful children. And those babies want to read books and color.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And play basketball.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And go to the park.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And they deserve the war.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

They deserve that.

[Sophia Bush]

And it is that duality. The more I am willing to experience sorrow, the more space it carves in me for joy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And I'm just on the seesaw.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. You have to ride the wave and understand that multiple truths get to coexist. We're gonna parallel process and that box. Both extremes are necessary. Like the showing up and the activism and the speaking and also the laughing and the holding your people close and checking in. The softness is just as important.

[Sophia Bush]

You deserve to cook a beautiful dinner. You deserve to go out dancing too late with your friends. It is medicine.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

And I think your joy and your sacred rage get to exist at the same time. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. And that's the. The skill, the human skill of living and continuing to lean into both so you can grow your capacity.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Like what a. What a gift to be on the journey.

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[Sophia Bush]

Price.

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[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Hey audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and walking encyclopedia Questlove we're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Night how to Be a DJ in 90s New York City. All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that gives you the most control? So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other after 20 years or 25 years. Like the Beatles broke up in seven and a half years and we're going on 35. Listen to HearSay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

I don't know about you guys, but I love to buy gifts. I love it so much. I love it so much more than getting gifts. But the one thing that I do love, especially when it comes to my daughter, is getting matching things. I know it's such a cliche, but I love it so much. So I have the perfect brand for you. Pandora Jewelry can make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member, Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[Sophia Bush]

Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list. It's no small feat, but with TJ Maxx, your magic multiplies. With quality finds arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on luxe cashmere, the latest tech toys, and more.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

More.

[Sophia Bush]

So you can check off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads. Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic. It's TJ Maxx, of course. It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest bike to learn on, safest to ride, and the number one kids bike on the market with USA Made Kid Specific frames and patented safety technology Kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in sales savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessories. Each bike arrives 99 assembled, so setup takes minutes, not hours. Whether it's their very first ride or their next big upgrade, Guardian makes every pedal feel safe, smooth, and fun. Join over 500 happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to shop. Now that's guardianbikes.com it is time for Messy Mail, where we read out your whole fessions and questions. As always, your submissions remain anonymous.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I love it. Yes.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

Great.

[Sophia Bush]

We have really been in the soul.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

We've been in the soul.

[Sophia Bush]

All kinds of messes, people.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Let's do the messy stuff now, okay? And as always, your submissions remain anonymous. All right, so this one says, I dated someone from my friend group, and when we broke up, I didn't just ghost him, I ghosted everyone. I blocked the group chat, archived the photos, and started pretending I lived in Spain. Really? I just moved to the east side.

[Sophia Bush]

I was like, did you move to Barcelona? What's going on?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

They said, I ran into one of the friends at Ralph's while test tasting the grapes tea. You gotta have a sweet grape. I told them I was visiting. This has been going on for almost a year.

[Sophia Bush]

Wait, it wasn't a mental pretense? No, no, no, no. Like, friends all think this person moved.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then somebody ran into them very close by on devastating grapes. How long do you think this person can keep this charade up? That's. That's a. That's a big charade.

[Sophia Bush]

That is so bold. That is so bold that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

How do you get away with that with social media? Like, I guess. I don't know.

[Sophia Bush]

You know what it reminds me of? Like, somebody sent the skywriting from a few months ago when that terrible podcaster Joe Rogan was platforming all the white supremacists. Which ones?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Huh?

[Sophia Bush]

And somebody had paid to skyright. Joe Rogan is literally 5 foot 3 over his office, and I sent it to, like, 10 friends, and I said, I aspire to be rich enough to be this petty.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, yes. Someday. Someday, Someday. Oh, can't wait.

[Sophia Bush]

You're such a troll. But to be like, that's petty.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's petty. And also powerful, I guess. Really powerful. But also, like, I would always be. I mean, I guess in New York, I would always be scared. I mean, I guess over here, but in New York, I'd always be scared that I'd run into somebody. How do you not run?

[Sophia Bush]

It would make me feel like a fugitive. But I hadn't done anything wrong.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, you just broke up. Why block everybody?

[Sophia Bush]

Well, by the way, I'm like, what? I want to know. Yeah, I want to get into the mess. I want to be like, excuse me, caller. If you blocked the person you broke up with and the whole friend group.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

What.

[Sophia Bush]

What did he do?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

What did he do? What secrets did they keep?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. What. What were the stakes that we had to block everybody and say, we're in Spain now. I'm like, ooh, ooh, that's tea. Also. Yeah, I do. I think you're asking the real. The journalism. The journalism. Okay, so this one. This next one says.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like, I know. It's like something I went through.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Sometimes when they, like, while ago. Listen. Sometimes when they. When they send these things, and I'm like, I need more details.

[Sophia Bush]

How can I. I need you to tell me more.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Tell me everything.

[Sophia Bush]

Because, see, if this was a caller, I'd be like, say more, say more, say more.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, yeah. We should do live calls. We should do live calls, and we can, like, we can follow where we.

[Sophia Bush]

Can ask people to call in.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It'll be our foosball sportball episode where we'll. We'll have martinis and beer and people will call in and we'll dodge your dog. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Literally, my dream day.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Come on. Oh, we're gonna do it. This one says. So I was trying to post a thirst trap with. This is how we started all this with a little. And accidentally included a mirror reflection. And you can see my ex in the background, shirtless on my bed. My bestie immediately called me and said it was an. My bestie immediately called me and I said it was an old photo, even though I posted it five minutes after we hooked up. Bestie clock that in the photo, I have blonde hair. And the first time I dyed my hair blonde was last week. So I'm avoiding her calls now.

[Sophia Bush]

That's.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Honestly. You have to check the mirror. Like, that's. That's the.

[Sophia Bush]

You also, you just got. You gotta be honest about your life to your bestie.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You just gotta say, listen, you just.

[Sophia Bush]

Have to be like, I panicked because I knew you were gonna tell me I shouldn't have done the thing. I knew I wasn't supposed To I.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Was supposed to do it, but I did it anyway.

[Sophia Bush]

Ignored myself and I did it anyway. So you were right. You get unlimited I told you so's this week. And I owe you dinner.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You just accept it, make it funny.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And move on.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I also. Here's what I'll say. If you're what I've learned. If you don't want to tell your bestie, it's probably something you should not be doing. If you don't want to share with your community what you up to, it's probably not something you should be doing that part period.

[Sophia Bush]

You can't hide things.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

No, no, no.

[Sophia Bush]

So if you have something to hide.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Don't do it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Don't do it, babe. Don't do it, babe. Don't do it, babe. It'll also just make life easier.

[Sophia Bush]

And by the way, then if you see people out doing the things, you go, huh? You should probably go, oh, there's something.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I don't know.

[Sophia Bush]

Cause they're not hiding.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

The hiding is the bad. The hiding is the hard part. It's the bad part.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

It's just not good for the soul. But I would also say this. I have a thing with my friends and with just friends in general. If I tell you a thing, I'll tell you a thing one time. If you ask me to tell you again, I'll tell you it again. And if you continue to do something opposite, it's no stress. I'm not mad. It's just like. Cause I think everyone has to be on their journey. So don't even worry about hiding it. Like I clocked it. We both. We can look at each other's eyes and be like.

[Sophia Bush]

Be like, hehe girl.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Okay. And let's move on.

[Sophia Bush]

Be like, oh, really old photo.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Nice, nice, nice, nice, nice, nice. You know, baby, I have your location. Like, stop.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm literally tracking my location, like right now.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Come on. This one. Okay. I love this one. This one says, went out to dinner on two dates with a guy and he paid both times. When I wasn't texting him back to his liking, I finally told him, even though I liked his vibe, I don't think I have the time to keep seeing him. He Venmo requested me for half of the day. Do I pay it? All right? They're asking questions. They ask, what do you think? Do they pay it? First of all, it's wild. That's petty as fuck and crazy.

[Sophia Bush]

People are so petty.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

People are wild. Humans are wild.

[Sophia Bush]

Shook. I'm also sort of inspired I know, right? I feel like I need to be so much cuntier.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I know. Like, ask for what you want. Give me that half of that Venmoback. But do you pay it?

[Sophia Bush]

No.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

No. You know what I would do? Tell me me, I would look up, like, what's this person's coffee order? Like, what's the coffee order?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I would Venmo, like 7.99 for a Starbucks grande latte.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. That's.

[Sophia Bush]

Enjoy your day.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, with a little note in the Venmo, enjoy your day.

[Sophia Bush]

You offered.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

There's. There's no take backsies.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's wild with food.

[Sophia Bush]

You digested weeks.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

We've already. It's already done. It's already done. Also, like, you had those receipts. I guess you go back to your bank statement or something. Like, it's also.

[Sophia Bush]

I mean. And listen, I want to be. These people could be very young.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Sure.

[Sophia Bush]

The expense of paying for two people to have dinner could affect someone's, like, monthly grocery budget. I want to be a little sensitive to that. But if that's it, if it's like, I liked you so much, I overspent.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

I don't mean to be tacky, but.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

A little more context.

[Sophia Bush]

Offer some context.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Or if you're doing it to be petty because you got your feelings hurt, then you deserve petty in response.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's. You know what? I agree. I was gonna say somebody who wants to Venmo requests for some dates to me. Not all there. And so I'm like, I would just pay it and block you and get out. But there is like a. If there was context, I could understand that.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

But it's like the. It's just so rude.

[Sophia Bush]

It feels nasty.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, it feels nasty.

[Sophia Bush]

Explain it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

But also, as we all know, the price of eggs have not gone down. They've gone up.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Come on. Groceries in this, you know, you're like, let me get. You know, I'll send you some money for our crate of eggs. How about that? Enjoy your breakfast.

[Sophia Bush]

Tonight, you're send someone $31.99 to get some organic eggs.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Organic. I say organic.

[Sophia Bush]

Give me a break.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

The regular farmer's market on Sundays.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like $4 for a red carton.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Love it.

[Sophia Bush]

Bye.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Bye. Bye. All right, this one says, this is a little longer. I'm 34, and only recently have I started naming myself as queer out loud to others. Not just in my head. It's been. But also disorienting. I spent so much of my life Minimizing myself, code switching, or trying to be the version of me that made other people comfortable. Now I'm trying to be me, me. But I don't fully know what that voice sounds like yet. Everyone around me seems so confident in their queerness, how they dress, how they date, how they speak about identity. Meanwhile, I'm over here googling terms that I feel like I should have already known. How do I find my queer voice, not someone else's version of my queer voice, when I've spent so long being quiet to survive. That's a real thank you for this question, listener. That's a real. Yeah. What are your thoughts?

[Sophia Bush]

I think it goes back to what we were talking about. You're. You're not going to get in the MLB if you've never picked up a baseball. Yeah, you have to try. You have to practice. Yeah, you deserve to. Yeah, you deserve to try on, on every version of your style. You deserve to go to every kind of restaurant to figure out what kind of food you like. You, you deserve to explore. And what I wonder about for so many people now, everyone's so obsessed with the definition and the when and how long and the this and that.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

There's no black and white answer. It's not. There was before, and then today. There's today.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

It's always been there. Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you're lost in it. Maybe you couldn't voice it, but looking back, you always knew, like, being a human is so complicated and messy.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I, I hope for this caller that rather than feeling like they're behind and like they gotta figure it all out so they can dress it or express it or say it or name it or label it, that they can just feel freer to explore.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Themselves to go on the journey and not worry about the definition because the definition will evolve over time. And so, like, you're never gonna have a landing. Like, what queer means to you in the first month is gonna be different in the first year. It's gonna be different in 10 years. And so, so giving yourself permission to go on that journey, I also say, like, going slow, like, not rushing, like, go slow in it. Take it piece by piece. Don't feel like, oh, I gotta know everything. I came out as non binary in 2020, and the best advice I got was you don't have to tell everybody right now. Like, you can just see what it is for you first before you hear what other people think it is. And I really spent that first. I Think it was a year before I actually said something publicly. And I like bought some more heels and I bought skirts and I played with make and I just started just playing with things. And I did it in my apartment. Like I would just like. And then it was more comfortable to go outside in heels. And then I. Heels hurt, so now they're just in the closet, you know, and then like becoming comfortable that like my style is a little more boyish and is a little more that. And that doesn't make me any less my version of queer, but like the giving myself, as you're saying, the permission to try all the restaurants to explore and to also. I think the other piece about this I would say is there's probably a version of queerness that this person has that isn't available in the world. And so be open to that. You might have an expression of it that actually doesn't exist in the world yet that you will bring to the world. And so it's even more reason to explore because as you explore and you take pieces from elsewhere, you kind of build a new tapestry that is all your own. And releasing the. Releasing the pressure of having to be a scholar of queerness.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You know, like you don't have to be the scholar.

[Sophia Bush]

You have to be an expert on your first out loud day.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I love what you said about not rushing.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Because rushing is how you wake up one day in a house that isn't yours, you know.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Oh.

[Sophia Bush]

I can look back now and understand that there were certain pressures that I intellectually thought I had worked through.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

But in my bones I had felt my whole life and approaching, particularly for women in this world, approaching 40 and wanting to be a parent and all these things. And the pressure that my brain knew better than to fall victim to.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

If you don't think I Pinterest boarded and produced that life baby fast, baby quick. And then I looked around and I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, great. Like I'm a good producer. But I ignored myself. I didn't give myself time to really interrogate certain things. When I would ask a question, I about something that made me uncomfortable, I took the answer at face value. Even though somewhere in my body I.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Went, there was that contraction like that.

[Sophia Bush]

You're telling me I'm safe, but I don't feel safe.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And the undoing when you've gone too fast.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Is a whole lot shittier than going slow.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

That's tea, please. That's tea.

[Sophia Bush]

It will save you so much money.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes, that's tea. You know, I think as women in Queen, I always say our worth comes from our productivity. Our worth comes from being good. And so there is that. Indoctrinated to not ask more questions because you don't wanna be a burden. You don't wanna feel like you are difficult. So you just take things at face value. But I think the way back home is to go slow and to ask those questions. And when you get that first answer, be like, is there an answer? Is there a question? Is there another question? I always say this now, and I say this in business. I say this in Friends. Is there a question that I' asking? Is there a question that I should be like, I end all my meetings with like, is there a question that I should have asked that I haven't asked? Because. Because they. There might be something that I'm missing and. And that somebody else might be able to. To shed light on or bring you into or to bring me into. Yeah, it's like there. There are always questions, and so, you know, always. Always looking for more of them, I think is part of the journey of finding your voice and knowing that your voice. Oof. That sometimes it's okay to listen as you're finding your voice. Sometimes it's really. In fact, I would encourage you to listen that you're. That. I think when we think voice, we think, oh, we have to, like, have a brand of our queerness and have to be able to say, this is what it is, and this is what it is. And it's like, no. Sometimes you're in the phase where you're, like, listening and you're learning and you're just sourcing before you can actually express. And that's. That's being in that chrysalis or that cocoon is invaluable. Like, do not try and break out of your cocoon sooner than you need to.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Give yourself time.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes. Yes. Sophia, this has been a nourishing conversation. I feel great. It feels great. I'm gonna ask you the last two questions that we asked.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Okay.

[Sophia Bush]

Are they naughty or nice?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

They're nice. I don't know. They're nice.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm.

[Pandora Jewelry Advertiser]

I'm like.

[Sophia Bush]

I just can't get over the pull quote from the episode I was listening to this morning. You had Nick being like, well, it's pride. I'll stuff him like a pepper. And I was like, oh, my God.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

We have the range here.

[Sophia Bush]

We really do have the range.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

We go through it. We go through it.

[Sophia Bush]

I respect it.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Thank you.

[Sophia Bush]

That doesn't have to be Fun, but you know what I mean? Where is.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

You're like, what are we doing? So this question is, what's your favorite piece of advice you've ever received, given or heard? It can be naughty. It could be nice. It could be about anything. 1.

[Sophia Bush]

I'll tell you after.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Okay, great.

[Sophia Bush]

But I will say one of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given in respect to what we were just talking about is slow is fast.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

If you slow down, down, you check in.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

You make the right first move.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Instead of running in, screwing up, having to clean up the mess and run out.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You will get into that space faster.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Slow is fast.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I love that you're. I was just reading. What is it called? I think Rest is Sacred, but it's Octavia F. Freeman. But there's a passage about pace, and is the pace that you're at the cultural pace, or is it your pace? And that you have to slow down to find your pace and going at what is your pace? So I love that slow is fast. The last question is, I used to ask, what could people learn to love about themselves? But now I want to ask, what do you love most about yourself? You know what? And I'm gonna give context because I know that in our culture it can sometimes feel arrogant or cocky to say what we love about our. Ourselves. But I really want to reshape that. We have to know what we love about ourselves. We have to love ourselves first in order to. What does my Angela says? She says something like something in the lens of, I don't trust somebody who doesn't love themselves. I don't trust.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I don't trust if they don't love who they are. I'm not really sure what's happening here.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that I'm a courageous person. And I mean that. I. I show up for people.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I show up. Show up when it is inconvenient, when it is harmful to my career, when it is scary. Sometimes when there's risk of violence.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I show up.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I will not give up on us. And what I love about finding my courage first for our community.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Is that it led me to be courageous for myself.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And when I realized that there was an incongruence between the way I could look at any person and say, you deserve better. The way I could look at any system and say, this is fucked up and it's broken and it oppresses people and we can do better. I had to realize that I didn't defend myself the way I would defend a stranger or a neighbor.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And it made me say to myself, like in the mirror, I love that when you love, you love hard. I love that when you commit. You commit all the way. You go to the end of the road, and you finally learned that if you reach the end of the road and it's a dead end, who gives a. What anybody's gonna think when you turn around and drive right back, Back out. Good for you.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

You explored it. You did it left no stone unturned. You did all the work, and now you're going to keep working on the next thing. And that I used to be so ashamed at people's judgment or. Or at the appearance of failure. And then I started to realize, you know, how courageous you have to be to do something big and then be willing to do that next.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Be willing to move on. Be willing to continue to choose better, to not settle for mediocre.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, ah. And when I realized that the way I was framing my personal failure is how I would view courage in people I loved, I was like, oh, I deserve love. I'm courageous.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And so that was a really big shift for me.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah. Sofia, this was. I knew it was gonna be a great conversation. Like, I was very excited, but, like, this was beyond anything I could have ever dreamed or imagined.

[Sophia Bush]

We're pretty good together.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

We're pretty great together. I need a talk show. We do. We're gonna do our talk show. It'll be part soulful. It'll be part sports. It'll be part foosball. It'll be incredible.

[Sophia Bush]

And then we can do, like, the after. After hours.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Have the dirty and have the dirty.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah, yeah. The dirty. Dirty talks. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

You know?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Why not?

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Thank you for being here.

[Sophia Bush]

Thank you.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

I love you so much.

[Sophia Bush]

I love you.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

Well, you know, we are hoes here, but hoes with heart. So before we part ways, let me speak to yours. Ah. I love Sophia so much. What a fulfilling and nourishing and soulful conversation about all the things. One of my favorite things that she said is, I don't have to push the rock. I can be the water. And I re bring that up because I guess, you know, I think for so many of us, and I said this often about queer folks and women, our worth is tied to our productivity, how much we can do, how we can be there for everybody else. Like, that's how we feel our way worth. We are. We are affirmed in our ability to do things for others, and it's how we get our Hit of worthiness. And so we often feel like we have to push the rock. And so I don't know who needs to hear this, but you can be the water. You can go with the flow. In fact, it's imperative that you find moments to do so that your worthiness is not tied to your productivity or how much you can lift, how much you can do. It's not tied to pushing that boulder up a hill. Just by being, by existing, you're worthy and you're enough. So as uncomfortable as it'll be at first, what are the ways in which you can let yourself be water? Let yourself release some of the pressures, let yourself release the need to be perfect. Perfectionism is my rock that I'm constantly having to put down. And. And then I find myself picking it up without even knowing it. You know, I think it'll be a constant, a constant work. And I'm much better at it, but that's one of my rocks. So you don't have to push the rock. You can be the water. Also, I love when Sophia says if it feels like good, you don't have to articulate why, but if it makes you exhale, lean in as you are on this journey towards your liberation and towards your freedom. You may not have all the language, but you can know how it feels in your body. Your body is yelling at you all the time or whispering or speaking at a normal voice. But like, your body is communicating with you at all times. So when you say yes to a thing and your body clenches, even if you can't articulate what it's about, like, notice that your body clenched a little bit when you showed up at this environment or when that person walked in the room. Notice how your body shifted and just get curious about why. Why is that? What's. What's coming up for you. And on the opposite end, notice when your body relaxes. You know, somebody calls you and you see their name and you get excited. Very different than when you get tense, right? Just notice. Notice it. You don't have to make any changes yet, but just starting to like, get curious about what is my body telling me, what is my heart telling me where. When my throat closes up or when my. I feel that pain in my gut or that like, pain in my neck that continues to. To get exacerbated after a certain. After I'm at a certain place or with certain people. Like, just start to notice that and see how you can move towards the things that make you exhale. I also love your joy and sacred Rage get to coexist. You know, I think especially in the. In the times that we are in, I think it's impossible not to feel rage. If you're not feeling rage, you're not aware, wake. You know, like, there is a lot happening that should make you angry. Certainly makes me angry. And at the same time, I understand that joy is also important, that in order to balance that rage and to make that rage productive. Not your worth. We're not tying that. But, you know, like to do something with that rage that can heal and that can move things forward. You got to know where your joy is too. You got to know how to. How to find moments where you can smile, where you can find moments to laugh, where you can find moments to exhale that. Your rage and your joy, your. Your sacred rage. Because it is sacred. Because I used to be afraid of rage. And I think I've talked about this on here. Just assuming that the rage would lead to. Or the rage was violent, that's like conflating those two things. Rage and violence, Anger and violence. But rage is just a human emotion. Anger is a human emotion, and for some people, they act on it if they don't know what it is. Right, but we don't have to. But you still get to feel all your feelings as a human. And so you're. So if you're somebody who, like, struggles with being angry and you're always trying to be, like, nice and happy and polite, I encourage you to look in the mirror and find your sacred rage. Because rage is also an indicator. It tells you, oh, I don't. I don't want to be here, or I don't like this thing, or this is unacceptable and it needs to change. Your rage is actually a beautiful indicator of. Of when change needs to happen or of when you are out of alignment with something. And so allowing our sacred rage and our joy to coexist so that we can exist. You know, you can't cut a piece of yourself off. You can't cut some of your emotions off. If you decide not to feel the rage, then you can't actually feel the joy either. Right? You can't fully feel the joy if you don't also feel that rage. All of our emotions work in work, work with each other, work in collaboration with one another. There are so many things, and I want to. I don't want to make this too long, but rushing is how you wake up one day in a house that isn't yours. Slow is fast. That's where I'm gonna leave this because I know somebody needs that. Do not rush. You want to build your house brick by brick. I know that there are a lot of, there's a lot of messaging that's like if you're not, if you're not this by 23, you failed. If you're not by here by 30, you have failed. If you don't have this by 40, you have baby. That's all bullshit. You are on your time timeline. You're on your blueprint. Go slow. Slow is fast. If you are rushing and doing shortcuts or saying yes to things that you haven't even processed, you will have to double back. You have to fix those things. You have to erase those things. You have to restructure those things. And that's going to be a lot harder than if you took the time to go slow. You took the time to be intentional. Intentional about every brick that you're laying down for the house that you're building, which is your life. So rushing is how you wake up one day in a house that isn't yours. Slow is fast. What it what were some of your standout things? You can email [e-mail] you know I always want to hear from you and I love you so, so very much. Much. I'll talk to you next week. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to Tell Me Something Messy. If y' all enjoyed the show, send the episode to someone else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and yours truly. Our producer and editor is Vince Dejani. The video of Tell Me Something Messy is produced by DEZ Lombardo and a special thank you to Natalie Branham, who helps me organize and come up with some of this mess. Tell Me Something Messy is a production of iHeart podcasts on the Outspoken Network. For more podcasts, listen on the free iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, audiobook lovers. I'm Kalpin. I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay, The Audible and iHeart audience audiobook club. Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible. Listen to earsay on America's number one podcast network, iheart Followersay and start listening on the free iheartradio app today. Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming But I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of the of my money. Getting 5% cash back when I pay in 4. No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with paypal. Save the offer in the app and it's 1231. See paypal.com promoter points can be redeemed for cash and more. Pay in for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457 this is Bowen Yang from Las Coltristas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. And guess what. I'm Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. And guess what. Guess what? What? I'm stressed. I got invited to a friendsgiving and now there's the big question of what to bring. Well, just bring a bottle of Casamigos. Oh, Casamigos. Of course. Nothing brings people together like a batch of Casamigos margaritas. A Casamigos margarita really is the perfect cocktail. Plus, Casamigos goes with everything. Turkey, stuffing, Mac and cheese. Oh, I was thinking more cranberry juice or ginger beer, but that works too well. You know the iconic rule of culture number 743. Anything goes with my Casamigos. This friends. You know what everyone will be grateful for. Cosamigos. I was gonna say you and cosamigos. Oh, let's keep it in that order, please. Drink responsibly. Imported by Casamigos Spirits Company, White Plains, New York. Casamigos tequila, 40% alcohol by volume. ABC Wednesday, it's the CMA Awards live.

[Sophia Bush]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

With performances by Lainey Wilson, Kelsey Ballerini, Zach Topp, Brian Jamie Green, Ella Langley. Kenny Chesney, Megan Maloney, Brandy Carlisle. And the hottest collabs, Miranda Lambert and Chris Stapleton. Jabuzzi and Stephen Wilson Jr. Big X the plug featuring Luke Combs. It's country music's biggest night hosted by.

[Sophia Bush]

Your girl, lainey Wilson.

[Brandon Kyle Goodman]

The CMA Wednesday, 8, 7 Central on ABC and next day on Hulu. You ever feel that deep pull to the land to know it to build something that lasts that itch for your own wild card country? Well, it ain't just a daydream. In 2025, it matters more than ever. Whether you're a lifelong hunter or just starting out, dreaming of land to explore, to leave something real or there is a trailhead where you can start. It's called land.com the biggest online network for rural property. Find the right agent and explore everything from timber tracks to ranches. Get the tools you need to buy that dream Generational property. Stop dreaming about it and head to land.com it's your place to find your open space. This is an iHeart podcast.