Ryan Seacrest (2:36)

Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (2:40)

Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in Progress. Hello Whip Smarties. Today we are joined by a guest that has fascinated me for nearly 20 years and likewise the world Today's Guest is none other than Amanda Knox. You likely know Amanda as an American author, an activist, a journalist. You might know her as a woman who was wrongfully convicted in college for the murder of her roommate in Italy in a year that she was studying abroad. And after that wrongful conviction in 2007, she spent four years behind bars, eventually having her conviction overturned when the man who murdered her roommate was sentenced. The powerful thing about Amanda's story is not only that she became a casualty of an unjust justice system, but that she became fodder for a media machine that didn't care about the truth. They cared about scandal and paper sales and salacious stories that they knew would click bait around the world. And this young girl's life was turned upside down in a way that has had lasting and permanent effects in some circles. Through her prolonged legal process and her advocacy for other women behind bars, Amanda began to find purpose again. And eventually that purpose led to the passion of advocacy. She has become a best selling author. She has become a journalist. Her first book was titled Waiting to be Heard, a memoir. In 2018, she chose to shed light on stories like hers hosting the Scarlet Letter Reports, a television series that examines the incredibly toxic nature of the way that we publicly shame women in particular. And her second memoir, released this year, is titled My Search for Meaning. It is an absolutely stunning book that affected me so deeply. And now we are on the precipice of her life story being turned into a show. It'll be hitting Hulu on August 20th titled the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. And Amanda served as executive producer alongside another woman who knows what it's like to be turned into media fodder, Monica Lewinsky. Amanda's going to join us today to talk about her journey, how she's learned to heal, what it means to stand up for others, and what it means to reclaim her story. Let's dive in with Amanda Knox. Amanda, I am so just thrilled, elated, excited to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Amanda Knox (5:55)

Oh, well, thank you for having me. I'm, I'm excited as well.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (5:58)

Yeah, I, I think about you a lot, which probably sounds a bit odd, but interestingly, there have been certain touch points in my life as a woman who very quickly was in the public eye at 21, who, you know, my first show started in 2003. Your life obviously exploded into public consciousness in 2007. The Internet and the forums and the chat rooms and things were there. Facebook was there. Social media wasn't yet.

Amanda Knox (6:38)

Right.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (6:38)

But we have Both in our sort of peer group experienced cycles of becoming something for others that maybe doesn't feel true for us.

Amanda Knox (6:55)

Totally.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (6:55)

And what's been so interesting to me about certain people who I've tracked through, hearing about their experiences and going, oh, wow, someday I want to, like, have a glass of wine with that person and talk about it. You know, things you've shared more recently and. And in your second book. And the frankness with which you've talked about your experiences have. Have made me go like, oh, definitely, we need to hang at some point.

Amanda Knox (7:25)

So, anyway, let's put it on the calendar.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (7:27)

I. I was like, I gotta get her on the show. And then I also have to ask her, like, out for a meal. So, anyway, I just wanted you to know the way I kind of think about what you do in the world with your life and your circumstances, and I really admire you.

Amanda Knox (7:45)

Oh, well, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. I know that I still tend to be a rather controversial figure in some people's minds, so I'm really. I'm really thrilled that the messages that I'm putting out there and the way that I tell my story has resonated with you, because that's really the goal is, like, after being really ostracized and elevated onto this pedestal, but only to be viewed in the worst possible light, it has felt very lonely. And so a part of the desire to tell my story is in part to reconnect with humanity and to hold on to the things that are important and. And help them continue to live. So that's.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (8:36)

That's the goal. Well, I think a lot about reclamation for people, especially people who get turned into characters in ways that they, you know, you can't put it back in the bottle once it's out. Whether it's true or not, you can't get it back. And I. Over the years that you've opened up your life, I've just been so taken aback by things that I've learned. And it has been a really interesting sort of experience to be both, you know, a storyteller, which makes me really passionate about getting to know people's real stories and. And to also know what it's like to have been through the. The public machine in the era in particular that we've been in it.

Amanda Knox (9:37)

True.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (9:39)

So before we. Before we get to where you are and how this all began for you, if it's all right with you, I'd actually like to rewind even farther. I think about people. I get to sit down and talk to Have a story or a project or a series of those things that people know normally from, you know, your adult life. And I love to ask people this question and I especially love to ask people with young kids this question because I feel like it adds something to it. I always wonder if today we could, you know, jump into Back to the Future and you could go back and interact with your young self at 8 or 9 years old. Are there things you would see in her that really track for who you are today? Are there things you would see maybe in her that remind you of your own kid? I'm always, I'm always curious if you, if you think like, oh yeah, I see myself in her or I absolutely never. Well, especially maybe for you. I could never have imagined what my life would be now. I just wonder what connects.

Amanda Knox (10:52)

Yeah, well, let's see. Eight year old me, let's see, that would have been third grade. So. And I mean, I'm sure we don't have to be this specific, but like in third grade I was, you know, drawing. I was doing a ton of drawing. I was playing, I was doing gymnastics and soccer and softball. I was very athletic. I was singing and dancing. I was a very silly kid. I loved stories. So this was, this was back when I was still in elementary school and my mom worked at my elementary school, which means that I would always get to school early and stay late after all the kids were gone. And so the school sort of got to be my playground, the entire thing. And I got to just, you know, make use of all the stationary and you know, so I was like, while my mom was grading paperwork, I was writing my own little stories and I was already a little author, you know, like, so in many ways I'm very, very similar to that girl. Like, that girl has persisted throughout this, you know, ship of Theseus that has been through quite the maelstrom. And I'm really grateful that that is true, that I still remain a person who deep down is very silly and, and curious and, and, and com. And compassionate. I think that's something that I've always been, is. I've always been aware of like people's energy around me. And I've always been aware of like, who's the little outcast in the room and I'm gonna hang out with them. So that was something that I've always done. And the, I think the thing that is different, that is, you know, noticeably different between me then and me now is fear and sadness. I mean, I mean it just is like. And you know, it's it's interesting with my 4 year old daughter who is remarkably similar to me. Like, she looks exactly like I looked when I was her age. And I think the only thing that is super different about her and me is that she likes spooky things. Like, she's, she was, she's already like in love with Jack Skellington and, and you know, like all those kind of things. And like, I was, I have never been a scary movie kind of person, so I feel like maybe I might be raising a goth by accident. I don't know how, I don't know, like, how that genetically came out of my body, but like, yeah, so otherwise we're just like, we're both very silly. We both are like, really happy to get into costume and get into character. So that silliness in that, like, being drawn to stories. Like just now, like I mentioned, I was slightly late coming to the podcast because I was assisting my daughter in the bathroom. But the way that I assist her is every single time we go to the bathroom, she wants me to tell her a story while she's going to the bathroom. So I have to sit there and tell her a story and she's not going potty until I'm done with the story. So it's like a whole thing.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (14:20)

Amazing.

Amanda Knox (14:21)

And yeah. But like, the one thing that is different is that up until everything that happened to me when I was 20, I swear, like, nothing bad had ever happened to me. Like, wow, it's. It's true. And I mean, it's not to say that I had like the perfect childhood on paper, right? Like, I had divorced parents, whatever, like, but I did not experience that negatively. I got to have two Christmases and two birthdays, and my parents lived within two blocks of each other. And so it was very easy for, and very fluid for me to move back and forth between those spaces. And it really wasn't weird because my entire extended family lived within walking distance. So it just felt natural to like, oh, I'm gonna go to my dad's house. I'm gonna go to my oma's house. I'm gonna go to my house. You know, like, all of these things were very fluid, so I never experienced any of those. What people think about as like, traditionally negative childhood experiences did not have that for me. I never struggled in school, I never struggled at sports. Everything came easy to me. I made friends easily. And so I really grew up in this, like, blessed experience, this really, really lucky life where I felt very loved, very supported, and everything came easy to me. And so what that did is it put me in a position to be very, very vulnerable when something bad, and not just a little bad, but very, very bad came my way because I was utterly unprepared for how to deal with it.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (16:16)

Right.

Amanda Knox (16:16)

And then that feeling of being utterly unprepared to deal with it, like you never, you never like forget that feeling of like the train just hitting you out of nowhere. And I think for the rest of your life you're a little twitchy in a way that you never were before because you got hit by a frickin train and that came out of nowhere and you'd. If it happened once, it could happen again. Like those, those are the things that go in my mind or like another big difference. And this, this is going to sound like really freaking sad and it's something that I'm still trying to work through is because the, the really bad thing that happened to me was not just like one bad thing. It was like a prolonged series of bad things that kept just building on each other and really took over my life. I had to sit for a very long time in suffering like prolonged existential anguish. And I weirdly became comfortable in it. Like, whereas before I would wake up, you know, everything is rainbows and sunshine. Like now I was waking up and everything was a cloudy day. And that became like the new comfortable, normal thing for me.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (17:53)

Yes.

Amanda Knox (17:53)

And when the bad circumstances go away, the, the cloudy weather doesn't like it. You know, like, trying to get back to what you were before doesn't really work. And so I'm better now at like, pushing those clouds up so that I get a little more sunshine coming my way. But like, there's something weirdly comforting to me about sadness because I feel almost safer when I'm sad than when I'm happy. Because when I'm happy, I'm afraid that something bad is going to happen to me. And that's, that's where, like, I'm still working through some PTSD response because like, when everything is going well and when I'm happy, that's when I start feeling scared that something bad is going to happen to me.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (18:53)

We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. Inspired by actual events, the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. What do you do when you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time? In 2007, Amanda Knox was halfway around the world, studying abroad in Italy. And she had no idea that her dream would turn into her worst nightmare. What started out as a young college student falling in love quickly descended into a murder accusation and the death of her roommate, worldwide public scrutiny and a 15 year fight to overcome a wrongful conviction. Starring Grace Van Patten in the infamous story you only thought you knew. Watch the Hulu Original Series the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

Hello Products Advertiser (19:46)

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Sophia (Podcast Host) (19:59)

Take hello's Anti Plaque and Whitening Fluoride Free Toothpaste for instance. It'll brighten your routine and delight your senses with a formula that's equal parts fresh, friendly and has plaque fighting power. Or see the difference that a whitening toothpaste powered by vitamin C can do for your smile with hello's Vitamin C Whitening Fluoride Toothpaste with thoughtful and fun.

Hello Products Advertiser (20:21)

Products that can make brushing your teeth feel like a confetti filled bathroom dance party. Say hello to happy to making the most of every moment. Say hello to a vegan, cruelty free and never tested on animals toothpaste and say so long to dyes, parabens, artificial sweeteners and flavors and other things you can do without.

Hello Products Advertiser (20:40)

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Tony Robbins (22:16)

Hey, everybody, it's Tony Robbins. The external world you can't control. We're in a time that feels overwhelming for many and it's gonna have more challenging times ahead. But you can develop a resiliency and a strength in you. So this can be the best time of your life. Listen, you really need to get yourself a coach. You need a professional who's already got results. We want to be better as people want to become more, do more, share more, create more, give more. I'm so passionate about coaching because for Time Memorial, that's how the job got done. Where there was lasting change, where there's someone there consistently with you that understands you, knows what you're missing, knows what you want, knows what the challenges are.

Amanda Knox (22:51)

Knows what gets in the way, you see results immediately. Everybody's overall level has gone up.

Washable Sofas Advertiser (22:56)

You don't work on the symptoms, you.

Amanda Knox (22:58)

Work on the issues and it solves the problem.

Tony Robbins (23:01)

So here's what I want to offer you. If you'd like to test out one of my top coaches, we will give you a 30 minute free coaching session.

Ryan Seacrest (23:08)

Go to tonyrobbins.com to get started today. That's tonyrobbins.com.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (23:19)

When I think about the, the thing that felt like the train wreck for me in my early 20s, that was global and awful. I know what you mean about what you get used to and what I, what, what I was thinking about when I was listening to you speak and, and you were describing those PTSD symptoms before you named the acro was when you experience that, that prolonged suffering, you almost get used to being the frog in the boiling water. And then it sort of seems like if the water's hot all the time, it won't be such a shock the next time it boils.

Amanda Knox (24:06)

Right.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (24:06)

You know when and when you start to unlearn that, when you have to do the work, as you said, to push the clouds up, you know, I, I had, I had a train wreck. And then 20 years later, it felt like I had another one. And the thing that was really tough for me about it was being in a place, doing the recovery once my PTSD was diagnosed and feeling like I'd really begun to turn the water temperature down a lot, and then it boiled. And I was like, fuck. Because if I. Maybe if I had just. Maybe if I just let it stay hot, this wouldn't feel so bad. But that's no way to live a life.

Amanda Knox (24:53)

No.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (24:54)

And. And so I. I share that with you just because I. I really want you to know how much I. I mean, like, oh, my God, I feel it in my bones. I feel for you. And I know what you mean when you say you don't really ever go back because when you've been boiled, you will never unknow the feeling exactly of the boiling. It just doesn't work like that.

Amanda Knox (25:20)

No. And, yeah, I do not relish the moment that my daughter gets really hurt by something because, I mean, I know that as a mom, I will be prepared. I am more than prepared to, like, help her figure that out and process that. I don't love the fact that as a mom, that I can't just protect her from that forever.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (25:45)

Right. That you can't stop it.

Amanda Knox (25:47)

I can't stop it. And then in the meantime, I'm just, like, relishing witnessing my daughter experience the world the way I know I once experienced it, which was without pain, without that flinch reaction, without that hyper vigilance, without that. That sadness, that, like, deep, knowing sadness.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (26:11)

Yeah.

Amanda Knox (26:12)

And so I guess it's just like one of those weird un. You know, blessings of being a parent that I wasn't really. That's not what I signed up for, but it's like something that has come back for me in a karmic way. It's like you get to experience that again, at least. At least as a witness. And. And I really appreciate that because, you know, when. When you lose your innocence that way.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (26:39)

Yeah.

Amanda Knox (26:40)

It's a real loss. It's a. It's like a death.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (26:43)

It is. It's. And it. And no one teaches you how to mourn yourself. We. We don't really have a great practice to understand the death of part of yourself in our society. And I. I think it. I think it's something that increases pain in the world. And it's why I'm. I'm so kind of winded in a good way by people who do what you're doing. I recently was in some community with Monica Lewinsky.

Amanda Knox (27:30)

Yeah.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (27:31)

And we got to talk about a lot of this.

Amanda Knox (27:33)

Yay. Oh, she's a great person to talk to about it.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (27:37)

I mean, just incredible. And I think I am. I am so grateful for all of the women in the world in our effective peer group, who have just chosen to rescue themselves. I. I think, you know, I try to put myself in the place that I was at 20. I was in college. I. I just finished my junior year. I was getting ready for my senior year, and then I booked my first TV show, and it was like being plucked and dropped in a completely foreign universe.

Amanda Knox (28:14)

Totally.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (28:15)

And you were 20 when you went to study abroad in Italy, which I'm sure felt like this joyous experience. You were, like, expanding into the world. You were gonna, you know, learn this language you knew a little of.

Amanda Knox (28:29)

Right. And be immersed in a culture and just. Yeah. Like, the idea of growing as a human being because of just by virtue of being in this new environment was absolutely part of the. Part of the, like, excitement of it. Absolutely.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (28:44)

What were you excited about? What were you studying at the time? Why did you pick Italy? How did it begin?

Amanda Knox (28:51)

Well, I was always really interested in languages, in part because I grew up again in this, like, in these divorced households where there was a very different culture between what was going on at my dad's house versus what was going on at my mom's house. My mom was born in Germany. And so on my mom's side of my family, we are very culturally German still to this day. Like, we don't sing, you know, English Christmas songs. We sing German Christmas songs at Christmas time. So I grew up at my mom's house eating hot Cole and sauerkraut and Roland, all of, you know, all of that. And then at my dad's house, it was like hot dogs and Hamburger Helper. And he doesn't, you know, he's never spoken a foreign language language word in his life. So it's. It was interesting to like, see how from a very young age to really, like, understand in my. In my bones that there are different ways to exist in the world, and none of them is better than another. They're just different. And it made me really curious about all of the different ways that people are in the world. And so I, you know, I. The first time I studied abroad was actually in Japan. I was 14. It was during high school. And I spent three weeks in Kyoto, living with a family there with. Who had a girl who was my age. So I was, like, hanging out in her bedroom with her, going to classes with her, you know, doing all that. And it was such an incredible experience. It left such a positive impression upon me that I immediately knew that I wanted to do that more. I wanted to study abroad more. And the next natural opportunity was College. And, you know, when you're in college, they're like, junior year, because then you've gotten enough credits in to, like, be kind of an adult, but you're not on your way out because you're not a senior. So, like, junior year is the perfect year to study abroad, and that was my plan. And why Italy? Well, also, When I was 14, I went to Italy with my family, and it was. When I think about, like, places that I want to go in the world, I always. There's, like, a criteria that I think about. One is that I want there to be amazing food.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (31:17)

Yep.

Amanda Knox (31:18)

Two is that I want there to be a culture shock. Three is that I want there to be, like, beautiful nature. And four is I want there to be beautiful history. And Italy ticked all of those boxes.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (31:35)

Yeah.

Amanda Knox (31:36)

And more.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (31:37)

As. As an Italian. Yes.

Amanda Knox (31:39)

I mean, come on. It's. It's Italy. Are we kidding me? And so as somebody who is, like, technically studying languages because I want to become a translator, that's my excuse to my dad. Italy, like, Italian is not the most, you know, effective language to learn. I. If I really wanted to be becoming a professional translator and get. Get actual paid jobs, I would have been going for Spanish or Chinese or something like that. But no, I really was just in infatuated with Italy after having spent some time there with my family. I actually had studied a little bit of Latin back in middle school, and so, like, I had read about, like, the Forum and, you know, all. All of that. And so I just had this like, really idealistic vision of what Italy was going to be in my mind. And I'll. You know, as soon as I got there, it was exact. It lived up to my expectations. Like, the few weeks that I was there when everything was going great were some of the best weeks of my life. Like, there were some, like, some moments of awkwardness in the transition, and. But, like, you know, you chalk that up to being a young woman in a foreign country who's figuring herself out. Like, it's gonna be a little awkward, but nothing, like, bad. And. And I had a great time, and I met great people, and, yeah, I was really grateful.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (33:09)

We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. Inspired by actual events, the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Plus, what do you do when you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time? In 2007, Amanda Knox was halfway around the world studying abroad in Italy, and she had no idea that her dream would turn into her worst nightmare. What started out as a young college student falling in love quickly descended into a murder accusation and the death of her roommate, worldwide public scrutiny and a 15 year fight to overcome a wrongful conviction. Starring Grace Van Patten in the infamous story you only thought you knew. Watch the Hulu Original series the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

Hello Products Advertiser (34:01)

You know if you can find joy in the small moments, life will always be that much more fun. That's what Hello's oral and personal care products are all about. They take the mundane of every day and inject it with some everyday yay.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (34:14)

Take hello's Anti Plaque and Whitening Fluoride Free Toothpaste for instance. It'll brighten your routine and delight your senses with a formula that's equal parts fresh, friendly and has plaque fighting power. Or see the difference that a whitening toothpaste powered by vitamin C can do for your smile with Hello's Vitamin C Whitening Fluoride Toothpaste with thoughtful and fun.

Hello Products Advertiser (34:36)

Products that can make brushing your teeth feel like a confetti filled bathroom dance party. Say hello to happy to making the most of every moment. Say hello to a vegan, cruelty free and never tested on animals toothpaste and say so long to dyes, parabens, artificial sweeteners and flavors and other things you can do without.

Hello Products Advertiser (34:55)

Visit helloproducts.com and let hello add some everyday yay into your life.

Washable Sofas Advertiser (35:01)

This Labor Day, say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Anibe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's pet friendly, stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site wide@washablesofas.com Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees, every penny back. Shop now@washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (36:02)

You can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, health care, retirement options, and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com it's so easy for a.

Amanda Knox (36:32)

Year to go by and you're in.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (36:34)

The same place because there's so much going on in the world today.

Tony Robbins (36:37)

Hey, everybody, it's Tony Robbins. So the real question is, how do you really get yourself to be in a place where you truly follow through, where you actually get the results that you really want? Listen, you really, really need to get yourself a coach. You need a professional who's already got results. You need something outside you, someone that's like what a coach does.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (36:58)

The most successful people in the world have coaches. If I want to play in that league, I have to model what the successful people do, period. Our company ended on a 69% revenue growth, which is ridiculous because we're talking about millions of dollars. Tony Robbins results coach will get you to where you want to be in.

Amanda Knox (37:15)

Health, finances, career and beyond.

Tony Robbins (37:18)

If you'd like to test out one of my top coaches, we will give you a 30 minute free coaching session.

Ryan Seacrest (37:22)

Go to tonyrobbins.com to get started today. That's tonyrobbins.com.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (37:32)

How long had you been there when you came home and knew something was wrong and, you know, paint that picture in any way that you wish to or not, but, you know, you call the police expecting help.

Amanda Knox (37:51)

Yeah.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (37:52)

And everything turns upside down. How long had you been in the country?

Amanda Knox (37:56)

So I had been in Perugia for about five weeks, so not very long at all. Still sort of getting my bearings, still meeting people, still finding my rhythm. I had just recently met a young computer engineering student, my Italian stallion, who was this bespeckled point Dexter named Rafaele Solechito. I met him at a little classical music concert that was at my school. And so it was. Everything was still very brand new feeling. Right. And yet, you know, coming home that morning, I had spent the night with Rafaele and I came home actually because I wanted to get changed into something pretty. It was a holiday. So we were planning. Rafaela was planning on taking me out on this, like, romantic weekend out of town into like, the, you know, the hills of Umbria. He wanted to, like, treat me to truffles, which I had never had before.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (39:11)

You were Like, I'm gonna live my. Under the Tuscan sun.

Amanda Knox (39:14)

This is really Tuscan sun life. And. And so all my. All I was planning to do that morning was to just go home really quickly, change into, like, take a shower, change into something pretty, and then go back to his place and go off on our little, like, romantic weekend. That's where my head was at when I came home and noticed that something was amiss. So, first of all, the front door was wide open and it was sunny out, but it wasn't, like, hot. This was November. This was the beginning of November. So I was like, that's odd. And I called out into the house. I was asking, like, is anyone home? No one responded. So I thought, huh, that's weird. And I didn't automatically jump to the conclusion, someone's been murdered in my house. Like, I just was like, huh. And it, you know, I remembered that the latch to the door was faulty. And so if you really wanted to keep the door closed, you had to lock it with a key. And so it occurred to me, well, maybe when someone was leaving, they forgot to lock, you know, the key all the way. Who knows? Like, maybe that's what happened. So, like, I'm doing all of these processes in my brain to go, huh? And then think, what could be the possible reason for that? Okay, fine. So I had a series of those as I walked through my house that morning. And again, with the very, like, limited purpose of going and taking a shower, getting changed into something pretty and then leaving again. So the front door is open. Weird. I close it behind me. I lock it behind me. I go and I get undressed. I go into my bathroom and start brushing my teeth, you know, getting ready to take a shower. And as I'm brushing my teeth, I remember, like, spitting into the sink and being like, huh, There were drops of blood in the sink. Now, again, my brain did not go, someone's been murdered. My brain went, oh, well. First of all, I was like, is my. Are my gums bleeding?

Sophia (Podcast Host) (41:19)

Right?

Amanda Knox (41:20)

And. And then I. But I was like, no, it's not. It's like I checked and it was old blood. Like, it dried. And I was like, oh, that's weird. So then I thought, well, maybe someone cut themselves. Or maybe someone had menstrual, like, blood and washed their hands. Like, I didn't know. Like, it wasn't, like, a ton of blood. I just thought, that's weird. And then I tried to come up with a reason for it and then was like, okay. And then I got into the shower Took a shower, got out of the shower, and as I was stepping out onto the bath mat to, you know, dry myself off, I noticed more blood on the bath mat. And I thought, that's weird. Go to my room, I get dressed, I start blow drying my hair in a separate bathroom. And I notice that there is feces left in the toilet. And that is when all of the different things that I noticed sort of like smashed together as a, holy shit, something's wrong. Because all of those things, like, I could come up with little excuses for all of the things up to that moment, but, like, feces being left in the toilet was very unlike my roommates. Like, I could not imagine any of them doing that. And it was the first thing that made me think, oh, no, someone else has been in my house.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (42:38)

In the house? Yeah. You got the feeling?

Amanda Knox (42:40)

I got the, like, creepy feeling. And I was like, oh, my God, is someone in the house right now? And so I immediately left and I went back to Rafaeli's house and I asked him, like, I told him all about this, and I was like, this, Do I sound like I'm overreacting? Like something feels off? And he was like, well, if you're feeling unsure, you should just call your roommates and figure out what's going on. And so I did. I tried calling my roommates and only one of them picked up. I had three roommates. I tried calling Meredith, she didn't answer. I tried calling Laura, she didn't answer. I finally got a hold of Philomena. She said that she hadn't been home that night. Just like she had been at her boyfriend's, just like I had been at mine's. And so, like, all of this, like, cascade of, like, okay, trying to figure out what's going on. I'm gonna meet Philomena back at the house. We're gonna investigate this further. And when we do, we discover that I actually go into her room. I had no reason to go into her room before. So now I go into her room and I see that the window has been broken. And so someone has broken into our house, come in through the window. And we're looking around and we're going, this is so weird because our laptops are here, her camera is there. Like, all of this stuff that's very valuable and easy to steal has not been stolen. So we're like, okay, someone broke into our house, but to use the bathroom? Like, what is going on? And then. Yeah, and then, like, I just, like, what is going on? So. So we call the Police. And we. And you know, and then we assume that in calling the police, like, we're gonna get some help. We're gonna care what's going on. We're still trying to get ahold of our other roommates. We can't. We notice that Laura's room or Laura's room is like completely fine, completely untouched. No one has even been in her room. And then we try to check Meredith's and her door is locked.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (44:35)

Locked.

Amanda Knox (44:36)

And we're like, what is going on? And we start thinking, like, is Meredith in her room? Is she like, has she locked the door? Like, yeah, like, what is going on? We're trying and trying to get a hold of her. And then finally someone breaks down her door and we see. Well, they see. I did not actually see. I was not the one who broke down the door. And it was all the way down a hallway. So, like, I didn't see into the room.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (45:02)

Thank God.

Amanda Knox (45:02)

I've never actually, like, saw her body in person. But as soon as it was, I think Philomena's boyfriend broke in the door. Everyone started screaming.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (45:19)

I mean, yeah.

Amanda Knox (45:20)

And all speaking in rapid fire Italian. And by then, like, a few police officers had arrived. And so they're like, get out of the house. Get out of the house. And so, I'm sorry, sitting there trying to figure out what it is they even saw in Meredith's room.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (45:35)

Right?

Amanda Knox (45:37)

And this is like the first sort of getting hit by a train moment, because it's like, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't actually see what they saw in the room, but they're clearly freaking out. So something really bad is in that room. I don't know if it's the person who broke into our house. Like, a part of me was wondering maybe a person broke into our house but cut themselves and then, like, is injured in her room. Like, I don't know. Like, I just don't know. And I keep. Like, the last thing that my brain wants to believe is that Meredith has been murdered. And so I'm slow on the uptake of this completely insane piece of information, which also happens to be the truth. And then I spend the next several days in a kind of limbo of shock and being at the mercy of police officers who are coming to me and wanting me to just tell them anything I can possibly know or remember about anyone who might have, you know, had something against Meredith or anything that I noticed when I first came home, because I was the first one to come home. So, like, I'm Just like downloading all of this information over and over and over again, not realizing that I'm not just like roommate number three in an episode of Law and Order now, which is already surreal as it is.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (47:11)

Right.

Amanda Knox (47:11)

I'm actually suspect number one and I have no fucking clue.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (47:16)

Do you think that was because you were a foreigner and because for whatever reason, in the, in the barrier of language, they first, like, were they just suspicious that you'd taken a shower?

Amanda Knox (47:33)

Yeah. So I've asked myself this question quite a lot and I, I think I got some clarity, some clarity after having read my prosecutor's book and also spoken with him extensively in person. And the thing. So there were a number of things that, that singled me out compared to other people, and one of which was that of all the other people who lived in the house where Meredith lived, and there were two floors, so there was our apartment, which was the upper floor, and there was a downstairs floor. And it, they weren't connected. So it's not like, oh, you know, you know, they weren't connected. But we were all in one house. Right. So four girls were living upstairs, four guys were living downstairs, and, you know, we, we hung out with each other. Meredith was sort of kind of dating one of the guys downstairs. So there was, you know, access to the house was available basically to all of the people who were there.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (48:36)

Sure.

Amanda Knox (48:36)

And the police, especially my prosecutor from the very beginning, believed that someone who had access to the house was involved with the crime. And the reason they believed that was because my prosecutor, who led the investigation, that's how it works in Italy. He took one look at the break in, like the broken window, you know, how, how this person would have climbed into our house. And he said no one would really do that. He didn't believe that someone would break in through that particular window in our house. And so he said that the break in was not real, it was staged. And only someone who had access to the house would stage a break in. And from there he logically deduced everything else. So if someone who lives in the house is guilty, who could it be? Well, it couldn't be any of the guys who lived downstairs because they were out of town with their families at the time. It couldn't have been Laura because she was out of town in Rome at the time. And again, like, they call it alibi di Ferro, an ironclad alibi. So that left, that left Philomena and it left me. And we had the same alibi. Basically. We were at our boyfriend's house, but Philomena cried more than me. Philomena was older than me and also a law intern, so she got a lawyer very quickly. I did not. God, I didn't. There was some, like, mistranslation moments. Like when I told the police, like, someone asked me, does Meredith ever lock her door? And I said, she sometimes locks her door. And Philomena was like, she never locks her door. And I. And why are you always saying she locks her door? And I didn't say, she always locks her door. I said, she sometimes locks her door. So there was just, like, little moments of mistranslation where I think that me not being a fluent speaker, me being an outsider, me being a sort of deer in headlights came across as suspicious to the police. And so very, very quickly, like, from day one, they had their eyes on me, and they deny this. They say that they did not fixate on me. But it's hard for me to believe because of every single person who lived in that house, the only person who they tapped her phone from the very beginning was me. Right. So I was clearly of special interest. I was questioned far more than anyone else who knew Meredith, who lived in the house, anything. And so from the very beginning, the police thought that I was involved somehow.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (51:50)

I just can't imagine the both the sense of impending doom and also the naivete knowing you weren't there, that. That the doom could be impending.

Amanda Knox (52:06)

Yeah, I had no idea that there was doom impending. I did not.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (52:11)

And. And, you know, I mean. I mean, listen, anyone who wasn't living under a rock knows what happens. You were arrested for her murder. You know, you were convicted of her murder. Fact that from the beginning, there were investigators pointing out that there was not evidence that there. That there was nothing to tie you to this. And I will say, I remember at the time hearing about you and the boyfriend, and maybe it was a whole, like, polyamorous thing. And it. They really tried to make it. It seems scandalous and sexual, and. And I. My heart hurts for you because they put you in that femme fatale, like, evil woman archetype.

Amanda Knox (53:08)

It was like a Tarantino film, but with me and my name and my face, it was. It was really bad.

Sophia (Podcast Host) (53:15)

This conversation is so immensely powerful to me, and I have so many more questions to ask Amanda. So she is graciously going to stick around so we can finish this up in part two.

Amanda Knox (53:40)

Foreign.

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Sophia (Podcast Host) (54:36)

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Amanda Knox (55:21)

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Sophia (Podcast Host) (55:30)

2.

Amanda Knox (55:31)

Seriously, it's $15 a month. 3. No big contracts 4.

Hello Products Advertiser (55:36)

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Ryan Seacrest (55:36)

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Amanda Knox (55:37)

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Amanda Knox (55:39)

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Amanda Knox (56:21)

This is an iHeart podcast.