Work in Progress: Don Lemon

Summary

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Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

Episode: Don Lemon
Release Date: August 27, 2025
Host: Sophia Bush
Guest: Don Lemon

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and lively episode, Sophia Bush sits down with Don Lemon—award-winning journalist, best-selling author, and host of The Don Lemon Show—to discuss the winding path of his life and career. The conversation dives into themes of resilience, authenticity, identity, and joy, weaving in both the challenges and celebrations of being openly queer in media. Don opens up about his childhood, coming out, professional evolution, and married life, while both guests reflect on the power of embracing one’s full self. The podcast exudes warmth as Bush and Lemon candidly explore lessons learned, hopes for the future, and the meaning of being a "work in progress".

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marriage, Love, and Queer Joy

• Don reflects on never expecting to be able to marry:

  "I never thought I'd get married ever in a million years. It wasn't possible for me." (04:46 Don Lemon)

• Touching wedding story: His husband proposed in 2019 with their dogs wearing collars that read "Daddy, will you marry Papa?" (06:19 Don Lemon)
• Impact of marriage equality: Lemon describes feeling fundamentally changed after marrying with full legal and ceremonial recognition.
• Shared narratives: Both guests discuss stereotypes, societal expectations, and the evolution from hiding relationships to embracing joyful outness.

2. Childhood, Identity, and Self-Acceptance

• Sophia’s recurring question to guests:

  "If you could bend the space time continuum and meet up with your younger self as a kid... would you see yourself in him?" (08:34 Sophia Bush)

• Don’s candid answer:

  "No... That little boy was afraid." (09:05 Don Lemon)
  He carried what he thought was a stigma about his sexuality until well into adulthood.

• Coming out journey:
  • Privately out to loved ones earlier, publicly came out in his 40s in his 2011 book to be fully authentic.
  • "I sort of carried that, what I thought was a stigma around for decades... I didn't come out until I wrote it in a book in 2011." (10:27 Don Lemon)
• Reflections on childhood traits: Both guests connect personal qualities—curiosity, eloquence, storytelling—as roots for their professional paths.

3. Career Pivots and Embracing Change

• Don’s transition from traditional news to independent media:
  • Describes freedom from corporate pressures and the joy of authentic self-expression:

    "I don't have to self-edit anymore. I don't have to worry about representing 4,500 other people in the company." (29:36 Don Lemon)

  • He credits leaving CNN after getting “clickbait canceled” as ultimately freeing and the sign it was time to move on.
  • "Sometimes what you need to do is bigger than what you're doing in that place." (27:12 Don Lemon)
• Sophia’s story of leaving a steady acting job aligns with Don’s courage:

  "Our jobs lost us... and that is the confidence I want to walk through the world in." (28:17 Sophia Bush)

• On self-definition:
  • Don stops letting critics or institutions define who he is. (30:59 Don Lemon)

4. Media Critique, Truth, and Responsibility

• Viral "cancellation" incident: Don and Sophia dissect the infamous on-air moment that was misrepresented and weaponized via clickbait.

  "Everybody put and judged their judgment on me." (24:00 Don Lemon) "You were making a systemic observation about the way our world functions... and you got clipped and clickbaited." (23:57 Sophia Bush)

• The role of media in normalizing disinformation and false equivalence:
  • Media’s fear-driven business decisions, profit motives, and proximity to political power erode truth and propagate both-sides-ism (34:30 Don Lemon).
  • Don laments how news outlets care more about ratings and deals than journalistic integrity.

    "They normalize these things and it's false equivalence... Why are we doing this?" (33:26 Don Lemon)

5. Intersectionality and Rights

• Legal regressions and threat to equality:
  • Conversation about the rollback of rights (Dobbs, Obergefell, Loving v. Virginia) and the urgent need for coalitional advocacy:

    "If your rights change state to state on a road trip, there is no America." (32:51 Sophia Bush)

• The importance of cross-community solidarity:
  • Sophia: "I need your men to show up for us... and I need all the people out there in hetero relationships to show up for us." (32:04 Sophia Bush)

6. Visibility, Representation & Living Openly

• Don’s experience coming out in his book and its impact:

  "The only person on network news that was out at that time was Rachel Maddow... I just have to be honest." (44:41 Don Lemon)

  • Rachel Maddow sent him flowers in support; the story made headlines.
• Sophia’s experience being outed publicly and reclaiming joyful narrative:
  • She describes being unapologetically visible and affectionate with her partner in the face of sensationalist media coverage.

    "If you think you're gonna make me hide, I'm gonna be the most loud and proud human." (48:28 Sophia Bush)

• Discussion on double standards, misogyny, and the performative commodification of queer female relationships versus the risks still faced by queer men.

  “Where the misogyny flips for us is, men think it's pretty hot when two women are kissing.” (49:19 Sophia Bush)

7. The Work in Progress

• Don’s ongoing journey:
  • Prioritizes being present at home and with loved ones over career achievements:

    "I try to work on being more present... maybe I have been thrust in this position now to lean more into my life." (58:45 Don Lemon)

• Sophia’s resonance:

  "When you love your life, you want to lean into it." (60:13 Sophia Bush)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"Sometimes what you need to do is bigger than what you're doing in that place."
– Don Lemon (27:12)

"Fear is a liar. That's what I mean by the devil. Fear is a liar."
– Don Lemon (29:09)

"If your rights change state to state on a road trip, there is no America, period. End of story."
– Sophia Bush (32:51)

"I don't have to self-edit anymore. I don't have to worry about... representing a brand... if I screw up, I say, you know what? I really didn't mean that. I apologize. That was wrong. And that's how human beings treat each other."
– Don Lemon (29:36, 30:58)

"I realize now, maybe I have been thrust in this position now to lean more into my life..."
– Don Lemon (58:45)

"If you think you're gonna make me hide, I'm gonna be the most loud and proud human. Because I love her. And I'm the happiest I've ever been with her."
– Sophia Bush (48:28)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Don Lemon on marrying his husband and family acceptance: 04:43–07:59
• Sophia’s “talk to your younger self” question & Don’s reflection: 08:34–10:54
• Don’s coming out story & decision to write about it: 44:07–45:33
• Sophia and Don on career pivots and workplace freedom: 27:08–29:36
• Discussion of media’s role in distorting truth: 33:13–35:02
• Advocacy, coalitions, and threats to rights: 32:04–33:11
• Double standards and joy in queer relationships: 41:08–44:07
• Final reflections—leaning into love, home, and presence: 58:45–60:22

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is open-hearted, humorous, and refreshingly honest. Both guests are unafraid to share personal vulnerabilities and hard-won wisdom, but the tone is consistently hopeful and energizing. There's plenty of laughter, some irreverence, and an underlying call to action for authenticity and allyship.

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Summary Takeaway

In an era of rapid social change and continued battles for equality, Don Lemon and Sophia Bush offer an inspiring example of vulnerability, determination, and hope. By telling their stories—messiness, mistakes, reinvention, and all—they embody the message that we are all masterpieces and works in progress at once. Don’s parting words remind listeners that success is not just a professional pursuit, but a lifelong practice of presence, love, and growth.

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Transcript

[Don Lemon]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Glenn Washington]

You think you know Snap Judgment? Yes, it's on npr. It's a podcast. It's storytelling. But Snap has gone deeper. Stranger, Wilder. We've taken you places that the New York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambies, the Webbies, the Gracies all stood up for.

[Don Lemon]

Welcome to the Podcast hall of Fame.

[Glenn Washington]

Glenn Washington Award winning stories, Original beats Soundscape to drop you into the heart of the story. Find Snap Judgment from KQED every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast, get in the zone.

[Don Lemon]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Don Lemon]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Don Lemon]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Don Lemon]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Sophia Bush]

Cmintmobile.com hey everyone, it's Sophia welcome to Work in Progress. Hi, friends. Welcome back to Work in Progress. You're a resident journalism school Girly has a guest today that has me immensely excited. Today I'm going to sit down with Don Lemon. He is an award winning journalist, a best selling author, and one of the most influential voices in American media. I've always respected Don for his fearless storytelling. He's covered pivotal historical moments and incredible shifts in society with such grace and such ethics. He's pushed boundaries and delivered thought provoking conversations on everything from politics to culture to social issues. And a few years ago, he got clickbait canceled and has reinvented his life and stood up for himself and who he is and what he believes in and managed to find incredible joy along the way. And I want to talk to him about his career, his resilience, his love with his husband, his book, and his new show, the Don Lemon show, which is available wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. I absolutely love it. I want to ask him what it's like to consider continue being who he is in all these new spaces, places and mediums. And of course, we are going to talk about queer joy. Let's dive in with Don Lemon. Dawn, it's so nice to see you.

[Don Lemon]

Good to see you. Sophia.

[Glenn Washington]

You look fantastic.

[Sophia Bush]

Do I?

[Don Lemon]

What are you doing?

[Sophia Bush]

I'm in love and happy, I think.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I hear it's good for the skin.

[Don Lemon]

I know. I'm waiting for you, though.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I know you're ready. You want me to really pull the trigger?

[Don Lemon]

I know I did. Last year.

[Sophia Bush]

It was last year.

[Don Lemon]

Last year. A year in April.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, congratulations.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you.

[Sophia Bush]

I never. I didn't know that.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you. I never thought I'd get married ever in a million years.

[Sophia Bush]

Really?

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. It wasn't possible for me.

[Sophia Bush]

It's really interesting. Well, that's. That's. Oh, I want to dig into that. I will humorously say, because our listeners, obviously, I would imagine, know all my things. I've tried it and it didn't work out so great. And then I thought, maybe that's not for me. And then, you know, I had a big life revelation and was like, yeah, never say never. We'll see what happens.

[Don Lemon]

I may have heard about that revelation.

[Sophia Bush]

See what happens. Why did you think you would never get married? Was it just the legality? Pre.

[Don Lemon]

It was a legality. And also it was, you know, back in the day, I'm a little older than you. You just didn't talk about those things. You know, he was always like a roommate. Oh, my Roommate is going to come to Thanksgiving. And they're like, oh, Don's friend is coming.

[Sophia Bush]

Ye. Your best friend?

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. But I just thought it wouldn't be possible. And then it was so weird because my mom walked me down the aisle, and as soon as I walked out, I didn't see her. I walked out to meet her, and as soon as she looked at me, she started crying and I started crying. And the whole way down the aisle, we were just bawling.

[Sophia Bush]

Boo hooing.

[Don Lemon]

I could not believe it. But, yeah, I thought it wouldn't be possible. But, you know, you never know, right? Anything's possible.

[Sophia Bush]

That's really beautiful.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Sophia Bush]

And what. What made you decide last year was the time.

[Don Lemon]

Well, he proposed in 2019 on his birthday. I thought he was joking. He came into the bedroom.

[Sophia Bush]

You were his birthday present.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm immediately in.

[Don Lemon]

Better throw up, right?

[Sophia Bush]

No, I'm a SAP. That is so sweet.

[Don Lemon]

I don't have. This is. I have another ring that's in the. It's being fixed. But I said, if I ever told him, I said, if I ever get married, I want a big diamond ring. And he comes in, seriously. And I'm in bed. And he said, oh, you know, we have to go get manicures. We gotta do that. And I said, okay, if you're your birthday, we can do whatever you want. We get a mani, pedi, whatever, and then go have breakfast. I said, okay. So I'm an elite sleeper. And so he walks in and the dogs are with him. And he gets down on one knee. And then the dogs, he goes, read the dog collar. And I said, what? And then I looked at the dog collar on both of our dogs, and it says, daddy, will you marry papa? And I looked at him, and I'm like, you're so crazy. And then his lips were trembling, like. And I went, oh, you're serious? I started laughing at him. I'm like, oh, you're serious? And then he opens up the thing, this big ring. And I'm like, holy. It was real. And so anyway, I'm making a long story longer. And then. So Covid happened. We started planning, and Covid happened, and it just sort of fell to the wayside. And we're like, you know, there are more important things in the world. Not that this is not important, but just. We felt like we were married already.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And then we said, you know what? He said, we have to make this official, and I want to do it. We wanted to do it in a church. We got married. By the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. like, I want it legal and church, God and law and everything and family. And so we did the whole traditional thing with the night before dinner. And it was really, really, really great. And it does make a difference. You feel different.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm so happy for you.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. So I can't wait for you.

[Sophia Bush]

So this is a really interesting through line because whenever I sit across from somebody, I think about what the world knows of you, you know, your career, your profile, the people who follow your work. And I always about who people were before they were a household name. And the question I love to ask feels even more poignant understanding for your identity and mine. Really.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

The shifts that have happened in our lifetime.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Because my question for my guests is always, if you could bend the space time continuum and meet up with your younger self as a kid, I mean, 8, 9, 10 year old Don, would you see yourself in him? And when we think about this shift towards permission of full expression, do you think that little boy already knew?

[Don Lemon]

No.

[Sophia Bush]

Really?

[Don Lemon]

I don't think he knew. I think it's couple things. I think that that little boy was kind of afraid. Not kind of afraid, was afraid because I knew what I was. I've always sort. I've always known what I was and not, you know, kids don't know they're not sexualized in that way. Right. But, you know, like, oh, I had a crush on boys and all those things. So the biggest thing for me, the biggest thing for me, obstacle that I had to overcome as a kid was knowing that I was gay. Everything else was, you know, just. I was a child. It was just childhood. I was living in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and like, just. I think I had a storybook childhood. Like being in the country, barefoot, hot as hell in the summer. Oh yeah, muggy. You could smell the tar. The tar on the roof would bubble, but you would just run around. We would climb trees and do swings, you know, and go swimming in the lakes and it was just really great. But the only thing that was the gay thing. And so I did not know. And so I sort of carried that, what I thought was a stigma around for decades until, you know, until I was 30. I didn't come out until I was 50 years old. No, I was like, what, 20? Yeah, I was well in my 40s.

[Sophia Bush]

In your 40s?

[Don Lemon]

In 2011. I didn't come out publicly, but everyone, my family and my friends knew, but I didn't tell the public until I wrote it in a book in 2011. So I don't think that I would just go and hug that child and tell him everything's gonna be okay. Or I would just smile and not say anything and just sort of look at him from afar and say, you're gonna be okay. I'm not gonna worry about you because I know in the future you're gonna be okay.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

As a kid, were this fascinated with the world and eloquent. Were you a bookworm?

[Don Lemon]

I wasn't a bookworm, but I was always bright, I was always clever. I was smart enough that I didn't. I could do my homework on the bus just on the way to school. Right?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. Make all the other kids jealous and get an A.

[Don Lemon]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Except for math, you know? And it's weird because then later, once I applied myself to do math, I was like, math is not so hard. You just have to sit down and, like, really do it. But maybe I had some sort of. I wonder if I had ADHD or something as a kid. Because it was hard to hold my attention. Everything in me now is like, don't look at this phone. And I know I don't really care what's on it, but you know what I'm saying?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. Cause once you're in it, you're down.

[Don Lemon]

The rabbit hole, right? You're down the rabbit hole. Or like, you know, to look at that monitor, I'm like, wait, is that something on tv? Or like, so that as a kid, I was always like, you know, you could easily distract me. I was easily distractible. And so I think that's, you know, and that's why I couldn't sit down and do math. But, yeah, I mean, was I always eloquent? Yeah. I was a good writer. I was a good speaker.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm always curious if people like yourself see versions of themselves in the kids that they were. Even the fact that you can point out that you were always very well spoken, that you were a good writer. Those things track to me in terms of how you wound up becoming such an amazing journalist, such an amazing advocate, you know, I think it's neat to figure out where all your little seeds were planted along the way.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Tony Robbins]

But you don't.

[Don Lemon]

It's hindsight.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. Oh, only.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Only. I mean, I think about that in so many places, spaces, times in my life, you know, when I was, like, white knuckling to try to get through something and then finally said, what am I doing this for? I can look back and say, oh, I knew two years before that I shouldn't have done that. Or, you know, now I think about science. You know, this is my nerdy stuff. I was like a space baby kid who always wanted to understand outer space. And when I think about invisible string theory or theories of time, you know, now that I'm in love with the woman I'm in love with, I think I was always supposed to be with her, but I knew her for years and never saw it, really. Like, I didn't. She was just my cool friend. I didn't see it till I saw it. And now looking back, I go, oh, maybe there was a reason that I always felt so comfortable around her. Oh, maybe there was a reason that we bonded over, you know, activism for women. And then we're always on these chats together, or we'd always start a group chat with each other's number first if we needed to rally a bunch of people for a cause. Like, oh, yeah. But I didn't get it at all. And then it sort of, like, smacked me in the face, and I was like, oh, my. Pay attention, Pay attention.

[Don Lemon]

Be mindful. And in the moment, we don't realize those things. Yeah, well.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think be, you know, be a little open to letting your life happen to you.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. I don't know if there were. I guess there were signposts, but I wasn't. I didn't know for sure because, you know, you're just not mature enough as a child, so, you know, the little things that you worry about, I guess it was always there. The thing that I think that throws people off is when you try to be something for someone else, when you try to be someone else's version of yourself. And so if I had just. And I did, I went away from it for a while. But then there are always things that push you back. The universe will push you back if, you know, if you're. If you take the wrong course.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And so I said, I want to be a lawyer like my dad. And so then I went and I said, I'm do economics and do these things. And I was like, I hated it. And it wasn't until you asked me if I was curious. I was always curious as a kid. Always asking questions. Like, it's tough for me not to ask you questions right now. You can and sit here. I'm open to it, and have you ask me questions. So, yeah, there were signposts, but I didn't know.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, I didn't know. And just like, you know, even when you're older, if you change careers or you sort of move into a different aspect of your career. Like, you don't know, and, you know, you're afraid of it. But then it's always. I think the universe is like a. It's like a railroad track. It always kind of guides you into where you're supposed to go. Or like. Bumper cars.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. So sometimes, oh, I've been smashed by a bumper car or two. But that's really interesting that you say that. I had a similar thing. I always thought I wanted to be a doctor, wanted to be a heart surgeon. That was going to be my thing. And then I had an arts requirement in school, and I had to do a play. And then I realized plays where books come to life and English was my favorite subject, and maybe theater would be cool. And then I decided I wanted to go to theater school. You can imagine how well that went over in my home. My parents were like, what? What medical school plays? What? And then I went to theater school. And it felt to me at the time, I think, you know, being 18 and being in this very expansive phase in life, I felt really reduced by the fact that I was only studying one thing. And so I transferred into the journalism school at usc.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. And.

[Sophia Bush]

And it was the balance I needed, because how to find and tell a story and how to honor the people whose stories you were telling in the real world made me viscerally a better actor. And then everybody was saying, oh, well, you've transferred into the journalism school, so you want to be a news anchor. And I was like, I don't think so. I think I still want to be an actor, but maybe eventually I'd want to be a news anchor. And this didn't exist yet. Podcasting didn't exist yet.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And now I get to do both. It's my favorite thing.

[Don Lemon]

Do you know what's weird? I took an acting class.

[Sophia Bush]

You did.

[Don Lemon]

And it really helped me. It helped my journalism. It helped me as a broadcast, because the acting coach said, just go with it. Like, just be in the moment and go with it, and don't be afraid to silence because it's very powerful.

[Glenn Washington]

And I said, yeah, you know, you're right.

[Don Lemon]

And I started watching all of the really great, not necessarily news broadcasters are the worst. They hate dead air. But actors and some radio folks, right, they don't hate dead air because they know that there's a power there. And so I would start watching folks like that, and I'm like, you know, they're right. And so I would take pauses. You know, not strategically, but I was just slow down on the air and Then just whatever I was feeling, I would go, you know, I wouldn't look at what's on the script or what was written or what was on the teleprompter, and I'd go, you know what, Let me just level with you guys for a minute. I don't know what's going on. This is the effing craziest thing that I've ever seen. Nothing like this in my years on Earth is whatever. And I would just start talking to the audience and then, boom, you know, primetime show, blah, blah, blah.

[Sophia Bush]

Because you were being a human.

[Don Lemon]

Because I was being a human. And sometimes I'm too much of a human on the air and it gets me in trouble, but, you know, it's okay.

[Sophia Bush]

I think that's why we like each other.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I have been told versions of the same, you can't be so vulnerable. You can't be so open. You can't be so political.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I disagree.

[Don Lemon]

I think we need more of that now. I think we need people, especially in this moment. We need people to stand up and not be afraid of.

[Sophia Bush]

And I want to be in the marrow of it.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I want to be where we're connected and cellular and together and human. Not performing, you know, in a suit and tie.

[Don Lemon]

I hate that now.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

I'm so happy where I am now. I hate it. Like, with all of the makeup and the.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay, this.

[Don Lemon]

God, I love. I love, like, sitting in my home studio and talking to people and having them, like, relate and having them love me being in the home studio.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors this Labor Day.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is hot out there this summer, right? But don't sweat it. We got tons of ways to save on your family's favorite personal care items. To keep yourself feeling cool and and smelling good. Now through September 9th, earn four times points when you shop for items from your favorite brands like Right Guard Raw Sugar, Dove Soft Soap and Olay. Then use your points for discounts on groceries or gas on future purchases. Offer end September 9th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Tony Robbins]

Hey everybody, it's Tony Robbins. The external world you can't control. We're in a time that feels overwhelming for many people and it's going to have more challenging times ahead. But you can develop a resiliency and a strength in so this can be the best time of your life. Listen, you really need to get yourself a coach. You need a professional who's already got results. We want to be better as people. I want to become more, do more, share more, create more, give more. I'm so passionate about coaching because for time immoral. That's how the job got done. Where there was lasting change, where there's someone there consistently with you that understands you, knows what you're missing, knows what you want, knows what the challenges are, know what gets in the way.

[Glenn Washington]

UC results immediately.

[Don Lemon]

Everybody's overall level has gone up.

[Sophia Bush]

You don't work on the symptoms, you work on the issues and it solves the problem.

[Tony Robbins]

So here's what I want to offer you. You'd like to test out one of my top coaches. We will give you a 30 minute free coaching session.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Go to tonyrobbins.com to get started today. That's tonyrobbins.com.

[Glenn Washington]

I'm Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from KQED. Every week we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside them. Real people, real voices. Real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay. I want to talk to you about this because. And I'm gonna be vulnerable with you. I'm tell you a couple of things.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, when we first met years ago in D.C. i was like, oh, my God, Don Lemon knows me. Like, I just was so. I was like, he is so cool. I can't believe this. You said something so sweet to me. We were all in, like, our. You know, our fancy dress for the correspondence dinner. And then when your whole observational moment. I'll call it. Happened on the air at cnn, I remember doing the thing I always encourage people not to do. I saw the headline, and I went, what the. I was like, even him? And I was so bummed about it. And then I checked myself, and I watched it, and I went. You are making a systemic observation about the way our world functions, and you are calling out this inappropriate ageism that a woman is participating in when she knows what it feels like, not only as a woman in her midlife, but as she also knows what it feels like to be a woman of color no matter what she changes her name to. And you're pointing this out as a man in your midlife who is also a man of color, who is also a publicly out man. And you're talking about the intersection of how up judgment is.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

But you got clipped and clickbaited.

[Don Lemon]

Everybody put and judged their judgment on me.

[Sophia Bush]

And I. It was a moment that reminded me, even in myself, don't get mad when you see the headline, because the headline's trying to make you mad. Investigate. You're a trained journalist. You know this. And I said as much to someone. I. I tend to, as an activist, get a lot of feedback. You know how that feels. And there were quite a few people that were like, can't believe you still follow this person. And da, da. You know, using the misogyny term a lot. And I don't respond to strangers on the Internet. I'm not insane. And one person just really got under my skin, and I did. And I said a version of what I said to you. And I was like, here's what the full scope of the story is. We should be relieved that a man is advocating for us this way on the Internet. And we bought this clickbait hook, line, and embarrassing sinker. And it was like, a very cool moment because I later got a response from this woman who said, I went and watched the interview. I'm also ashamed of myself.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I just. I tell you, all of that. Because I don't want to hide that. I was also a bit of a judgmental that day.

[Don Lemon]

It's okay, though. But I. I'm used to it.

[Sophia Bush]

I looked.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

How did that feel in the moment? Because clearly the clipped quote became the runaway train.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, how did you process that in the world, but also just in yourself?

[Don Lemon]

Well, it couldn't be what people were thinking. Couldn't be further away from who I am, especially as the only boy in a family of all women. And I know what women have to deal with. And during that interview, I said, I'm not saying I believe that, but no one writes that. No one listens to that. I'm not saying I believe that, but. And there were other things going on at CNN that. You know what I mean?

[Sophia Bush]

Sure. Oh, gee. Drama behind the scenes in the network. I wouldn't know anything about that.

[Don Lemon]

Drama behind the scenes and competition and, you know, that kind of thing. And so I just. It was tough because at first I was like, wait, I'm not. You guys understand what I'm saying, don't you? And they're like, well, no, you just. It sounds this way. And I said, but that. I'm telling you what I'm saying. And basically I was trying to make the point that you were making and standing up for older people. Cause you're being ageist. Why are you doing this when you know how society has treated you and sees you.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Don Lemon]

As a woman. And so anyways, and then. So the thing is, is that I know her. She took the bait and she used it and raised money off of it.

[Sophia Bush]

And I was like, wow, I've seen quite a few people take a lie.

[Don Lemon]

And turn it into.

[Sophia Bush]

Flip it into a benefit.

[Don Lemon]

She could have called me and said, hey, what were you saying?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, I've had that happen too.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. And did not do it. But it was. So how did it feel if someone.

[Sophia Bush]

Can ride the wave to get the kind of press they've never gotten before?

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I think it takes a person who's very. In a practice of therapy or whatever else divests them from their ego not to take that bait. And clearly she was not.

[Don Lemon]

But it was also the universe telling me I didn't need to be there anymore.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

That it was time for me to move on. And that. Not that you're bigger than any one company, but sometimes you are. Sometimes what you need to do is bigger than what you're doing in that place.

[Sophia Bush]

I also think. And listen, I. I left a job once, and it's unheard of for an actor to quit a job. And I quit a job.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

People were like, what are you doing? And it could have been a place I stayed forever.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And that I benefited from. But what I hear and what makes me feel seen and what you are willing to discuss with the public about this stuff is that sometimes you have to know you are worth more than whatever room you've made it into. That who you are is more meaningful than what you do or where you do it. And I think sometimes, whether you get the sign and, you know, you went through being pushed out of an environment, I went through leaving an environment. But the thing I think we both share is that our jobs lost us.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And when you said that about reflecting on your experience, I was like, that is the confidence I want to walk through the world in. Because it is scary to make a change in any way. And you chose to stick to who you are and you made a change. And you look happier. Like you said to me when you walked in here, you were like, girl, you look good. I was like, I'm happy.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. But it also doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that the new place that you're in is not challenging and that it's not tough. But I don't know, I'm just happier and lighter and I don't have to deal with the politics of it. And hanging onto something that people just hang onto because they think it's the best thing for them and they'll never do anything else. And none of that is true or real. That's, you know, the devil is a liar. Well.

[Sophia Bush]

And fear is a liar.

[Don Lemon]

Fear is a liar. That's what I mean by the devil. Fear is a liar.

[Sophia Bush]

With the shift for you, the new career path, that's very much more in your own control. How do you grapple with this stuff? How do you figure out how to talk about it? How do you do what we're doing, which is be as real and honest as possible and also leave people with some hope?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I don't have to self edit anymore. I don't have to worry, like about.

[Sophia Bush]

Say more about that.

[Don Lemon]

Well, when I was on CNN, I had to self edit everything because I represented 4,500 other people or so in the company. Right. And I represented a brand, a major brand. Okay. News brand, company. And so I would say, is this gonna get me in trouble? How's this, you know, this is gonna end up like this is all going through your mind. What are they gonna say about this on Fox News? And how Is, you know, how are the conservative. How's the conservative media gonna spin this? And what are my bosses gonna think? And someone's gonna think I'm too left, or someone's gonna think I'm too right.

[Sophia Bush]

Or someone's gonna say I'm being too soft in the center.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, yeah. All of that. Right. And so I don't have to do that now. So I believe that the thing that will win out in the end, like, I believe the folks who are gonna carry us through aren't the politicians. It's gonna be the artists that are gonna help us to get on the other side and the pendulum to swing back in the right direction. And I think the folks who are independent journalists who just sort of speak the truth and speak their minds and don't necessarily put a governor on like, oh, I gotta slow down. And whatever I say what I want, if I screw up, I say, you know what? I really didn't mean that. I apologize. That was wrong. And that's how human beings treat each other.

[Sophia Bush]

Gee, modeling humanity.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. And so I don't let my critics define me. I no longer do that. But a lot of folks who are in traditional media do that. So. And then I offer people hope. Because my saying is, old people be knowing. So I've gone through this, something similar to this a number of times. Not as, you know, not as much as my mom, who is 80, who lived through a lot of different administrations and has seen a lot of change in the world. I've seen a lot of change in the world. And I know when we go through tumultuous times like this, when there's so much gyration in everything, in the stock market and politics and everything, there's something on the other side that it's getting us to that is much calmer, much more effective, and much simpler. Progress is not just straight, linear, or doesn't just go straight up. Right. It's jagged.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Right. When people say, one step forward, two steps back. Well, sometimes it's one step forward and sometimes it's four steps back. But then eventually you do move forward. And so I believe. I do believe in my heart of hearts that something good will come out of this.

[Sophia Bush]

And so it's like, I think unless we start to really tell it like it is within our own communities and across communities so we can coalition build. Cause, like, I need your men to show up for us. You. And I need all the people out there in hetero relationships to show up for us. Cause when they turned over Dobbs and Then said they wanted to come for Oberfelge. And then Clarence Thomas had the nerve to say, loving should be reexamined. I'm like, bro, yeah, the ultimate rules for thee, but not for me. How is this freedom? What are we talking about?

[Don Lemon]

And they're coming for us. Whenever they say we're gonna send it back to the states, that means they're coming for you.

[Sophia Bush]

If your rights change state to state on a road trip, there is no America, period. End of story. Like, that's just it. You don't have rights if they change state to state. And that is so crazy to me that we haven't settled this as.

[Don Lemon]

Human beings. Just as.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes, as humans.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. There's no debate. But I think that we haven't settled it because again, I hate to keep dumping on the media, but it's because they normalize these things.

[Sophia Bush]

That's what I wanted to ask you about.

[Don Lemon]

They normalize these things and it's false equivalence. Why are we having a conversation about whether Donald Trump is taking a plane from the Qataris? If that is legal, it's illegal.

[Sophia Bush]

Period.

[Don Lemon]

Period is illegal. So why do you have someone on arguing that? Well, it's, you know, the Statue of Liberty, it's like, that is the dumbest that I've ever heard. Why are we doing this? And they're doing it about everything. About everything, about everything. But they don't have the person who is either a centrist or, or a liberal. They don't promote those people and they don't allow them to be able to like, you know, do their thing as they do with the crazy MAGA conservative.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay, can I ask you a question? Because I think I know the answer, but, you know, you don't work for a news network anymore, so you can, you can confirm or deny. Are they eroding truth, fact and the law? Because the outrage and the clickbait of the whataboutism and the both sides pattern they're falling into is good for their ratings and their pockets.

[Don Lemon]

The answer is yes, very simply, it's good for it. And also, the person who is in Washington, in the White House right now, has huge sway over what business gets handled in Washington, what gets FCC approval and what businesses can be merged or acquisitioned and all of those things. And they don't want that messed up. They want their deals, their business deals to go through. So they don't want to piss off the Trump administration or Donald Trump or he'll say, I'm not doing that. And he did it. He did it.

[Sophia Bush]

He's punitive. He doesn't abide by the law.

[Don Lemon]

He is punitive. But he did it once and I lived through it. Old people be known. I lived through it when AT&T and Time Warner merged and Donald Trump tried to stop it, as a matter of fact, he delayed it for a long time. And then I guess after a while, they had no choice but to go through because they jumped through all the hoops, but they don't want that to happen again. And so they're just gonna get rid of the person who is that mouthy person who's downstairs at the anchor desk. They're gonna go get rid of them or they're gonna say we're gonna settle. Are they gonna get rid of the head of news as you know what's happening? Are they going to get rid of the person who is over this particular program or they're going to, you know, fire some news anchor or settle a lawsuit that they would probably win in court because they just don't make waves.

[Sophia Bush]

But to bend the knee in advance is to cede hard won rights for people. So what do you think now in.

[Don Lemon]

A profession that's protected under the First Amendment.

[Sophia Bush]

Exactly. These supposed First Amendment people, it's like so embarrassing saying how sensitive they are. Aside from the fact that it's deeply illegal to be behaving like this, I'm also just like, y' all call us snowflakes. You could never, you could never handle my DMs. You'd be crying in the corner, having a panic attack, you losers.

[Don Lemon]

Who was it I heard that said that you call us snowflakes, but yet you are triggered by a rainbow T shirt on aisle 13 in Target. It's like, really? Give me a break.

[Sophia Bush]

And now for our sponsors.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is hot out there this summer, right? But don't sweat it. We got tons of ways to save on your family's favorite personal care items to keep yourself feeling cool and smelling good now through September 9th, earn four times points when you shop for items from your favorite brands like Right Guard Raw Sugar, Dove Soft Soap and Olay. Then use your points for discounts on groceries or gas on future purchases. Offer end September 9th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Sophia Bush]

So easy for a year to go by and you're in the same place because there's so much going on in the world today.

[Tony Robbins]

Hey everybody, it's Tony Robbins. So the real question is how do you really get yourself to be in a place where you truly follow through, where you actually get the results that you really want? Listen, you really need to get yourself a coach. You need a professional who's already got results. You need something outside you, someone that's like what a coach does.

[Sophia Bush]

The most successful people in the world have coaches. If I want to play in that league, I have to model what the successful people do. Vary it are coming ended on a 69% revenue growth, which is ridiculous because we're talking about millions of dollars. Tony Robbins Results Coach will get you to where you want to be in.

[Don Lemon]

Health, finances, career and beyond.

[Tony Robbins]

If you'd like to test out one of my top coaches, we will give you a 30 minute free coaching session.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Go to tonyrobbins.com to get started today. That's tonyrobbins.com.

[Glenn Washington]

I'm Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from KQED. Every week we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment. New episodes Every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

[Sophia Bush]

I will say something that really made me giggle when, you know, I realized who I was so madly in love with. A bunch of people. I used to see this every year, right for pride. People are like, the rainbow T shirt's not gonna make your kid gay, but. And they like plug in someone's performance. And somebody did like, but Sophia Bush and John Tucker must die. Sophia Bush and Eazy, and now Sophia Bush and her World cup winning girlfriend Will. And I just was like, honestly, it's been my honor to serve for the last 20 years, guys, thank you so much. I thrilled about it. We need the joy. Like we, you know, it's like people are just going to be who they are. What's so crazy to me is that in a world that is so hard for a lot of people, anybody's mad about people being in love. Like, we're so cute with our people.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, it's crazy to me that anyone is bothered and it's been crazy to me my whole life again, because I grew up where I grew up. I grew up around artists.

[Don Lemon]

Can I tell you something? We talk about this all the time, especially after the pandemic. We know so many heterosexual couples, married couples that called it quits. Every single gay couple we know still together, still together doing surrogacy. I want to have kids. Sending their kids to the best school, sacrificing things so that their kids can have the best. And you know, for couples that, well, you know, if you want to have a kid, okay, let's go in there and do it. But for me, you know, you gotta.

[Sophia Bush]

You know how hard we have to work.

[Don Lemon]

We have to work in order to have a kid. Right. But, you know, I don't know that much about your life, but I see your social media and I know you're, you know, your partner and you have a cute, beautiful life. My husband and I, we drive an suv, we have three dogs, they're always in our social media. We love to cook for people. We put our meals and stuff online. We spend lots of time with our family. We're at family graduations, a couple, I mean, we are just normal people and our lives are probably more boring than our heterosexual friends.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, one of my favorite things, when they started saying they wanted to threaten marriage equality, one of like the sassiest, yummiest, you know, old people know things.

[Don Lemon]

Like elder old people be knowing. Come on, Safiya.

[Sophia Bush]

I know, but like, you know, I need to know what lines of the songs I can sing and What? I can't. Like, I'm not trying to be ridiculous, but, like, one of my, like, gorgeous, sassy, elder gays was like, oh, what? The straight people don't want us all to have a chance to be as miserable as they are? And I was like, listen, I mean.

[Don Lemon]

I love it when my straight friends are like, what do you guys. Why do you want to get married? What is wrong with you? You guys are crazy. And we're like.

[Sophia Bush]

You're like, I don't know. I really like him.

[Don Lemon]

Hey, guess what? Well, and I always look at him and I go, tax breaks. Hey, you guys are getting the tax benefits. We're not that Bart. Yeah. And we didn't have for the long.

[Sophia Bush]

You guys are getting the socialism, and we're not.

[Don Lemon]

And we're not. For the longest time, I was paying for, you know, the kids, and I still am. I'm paying for your kids to go to school.

[Sophia Bush]

And happily.

[Don Lemon]

And happily, happily, by the way.

[Sophia Bush]

It's all good. We should again. You want to live in a society and not in, like, Joshua Tree? Off the grid.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Contribute.

[Don Lemon]

That might be fun, though.

[Sophia Bush]

I mean, I wouldn't hate it. I do. I spend a lot of time alone in the woods now because I like it a lot. The joy makes me so happy. And I'm not. It's not lost on me because you mentioned it earlier. You know, you didn't publicly come out till 2011.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You decided to do it in your book. How did you decide how to do it? And why did the book feel like the way it was?

[Don Lemon]

Weird, because I didn't think about it that much. I think sometimes you just can't think. We overthink things a lot. So I was writing a book about my journeys in journalism and sort of a memoir. This is an autobiography. I was way too young for that. And not necessarily did not have a big enough name to be able to do that, but it was, I guess, big enough for the New York Times and other folks to pick it up, because the only people out. The only person on network news that was out at that time was Rachel Maddow.

[Sophia Bush]

Wow.

[Don Lemon]

And then. So I just started writing the book. And then I came to the part where I moved to New York City, and I said, well, if I leave this out, then how do I. I'm not really being honest about it, and I won't feel really good about myself. And am I gonna look back on this and say that I missed an opportunity or that it was not authentic, it was inauthentic, and I said, you know what? I just have to be honest. I said, I moved to New York City, one, because of the racism, and two, I wanted to be who I wanted to be. I would never have been able to be myself had I stayed there. And I wanted to be out. I was gay, and I didn't think I could do it. I could be out in Louisiana, and I went to a city that would accept me. So. And I just wrote about it, and it was literally, I don't know, maybe on a page or two pages. And that was it in the book. And that's, like, the biggest thing that.

[Sophia Bush]

People picked up on, the biggest headline.

[Don Lemon]

Well, biggest headline. And that sold a book. And, yeah. I mean, folks were like, holy crap, Don Lemon is gay. And other people were like, yeah, and water is wet. I'm like, but no one had come out. No one had come out. And Rachel Maddow, like, sent me flowers. And she was, like, the first person, and she's like, you know, this is gonna be good for you. And it really was good for me.

[Sophia Bush]

I just think getting to be your whole self is everything.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, you know it is.

[Sophia Bush]

And to your point, like, in whatever way the personal life sells the thing. I wish I'd been able to do it in a book. Cause everybody else made money off my news story but me. But I was sort of like, why is everyone so fascinated with people's personal lives and not their careers, their volunteer work, their. The news wants what's sexy. Right? And for me, what was so surreal was to see the confluence of that tendency and also the misogyny. I thought I'd experienced it growing up on teen television in the early aughts. Like, it could get any worse. And then I was like, oh, it.

[Don Lemon]

Was really bad then.

[Sophia Bush]

It was really bad. It was really, really bad.

[Don Lemon]

I mean, look at what happened to Britney Spears.

[Sophia Bush]

No, honestly, the fact that, like, I'm not in the corner chewing my hair is a miracle is a sentence my best friend says to me at least once a week. But the. By the way, not to say that she is. See, look how nervous we get. I'm like, oh, my God. I mean that about me, not about her. I love her. Anyway, it was a terrible thing.

[Don Lemon]

Look at what happened with you. Think about how she was treated by the industry. That's what we're talking about. We're taking up for her here.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes, exactly. I just wanted to clarify. We're traumatized, but. But it was so interesting to me to see how much worse it could be when they could do it to two women. And when they got this gleeful thing, they were outing me, and I was like, oh, you want me to be freaked out? All I'm gonna do since you've decided to take this from me is go everywhere with her. I'm gonna make out with her everywhere to the point of your nausea. Cause you'll be like, okay, it's enough. And I'm like, camera's around. Or not. I actually had a friend call me and go, were you at Penn Station on Tuesday night? And I was like, yeah. And she said, my friend saw you and was like, I saw this couple just, like, kissing. It looked like a scene from a movie. They looked so in love, like, waiting for the trains to come on the board, and they pulled apart. And I realized it was your friend Sofia and her girlfriend. And I was like, oh, my God. I gave someone New York City rom com for the train station. I love it. But it's like, I remember thinking to myself, oh, if you think you're gonna make me hide, I'm gonna be the most loud and proud human. Because I love her, and I'm the happiest I've ever been with her. And I don't know. It's so surreal to see that. To see that two pages of your book became the whole headline. But in a way, I wonder if it's because so many people need it.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, I realized then, I wonder if.

[Sophia Bush]

We give people permission.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. But I realized then, I mean, think about that was. Think about how long ago that was. Yeah, right.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And we have moved 14 years. Yeah. We have moved into, like, we've. The advances that we have made over the last, what, 14 years or so. It's been incredible. I mean, look at marriage equality. There was no marriage equality when I came out. And I wanted to ask you this because I was worried one of the big things is that I was gonna lose my career, that my company would fire me. Or, you know, just because, you know, people aren't watching you. Don, the ratings are showing. We gotta get you out of here. Right. Or people would just reject me. Was that a concern for you? No, not at all.

[Sophia Bush]

And this is the inverse. So I will say, I believe I can't obviously say what it's like to be a man of color in the media. But I know if I'm just looking at gender, like, women get treated so much worse than men about their love lives, their careers, everything, their age, everything. But where the misogyny flips for us is, men think it's pretty Hot when two women are kissing.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say that to you. If people see you kissing on a platform, like, some guys gonna be like, dude, that was hot.

[Sophia Bush]

They're like, whoa.

[Don Lemon]

And if they see me, they may throw a beer can at me.

[Sophia Bush]

And you never know. And by the way, there's some of that for us as well. For sure. Homophobia is very real. But I think what was really interesting for me was to go, oh, you'll treat me so much worse, but you'll also kind of get off on it. Which feels really icky. But also, you know, early aughts Max and magazine, I've had to deal with that.

[Don Lemon]

I think some of the guys are good, too. I mean, the stuff that I've learned lately about, oh, oh, my God.

[Sophia Bush]

I know all the guys who, like, hide who they are. I'm like, you would just be so cute if you were out, but that's for another day. I'm not rushing anyone else. But I think what's really interesting for me as well. And again, I don't know that I realized it at the time, but I never shied away from playing any kind of woman. A bisexual woman, a straight woman, a queer woman. I've never not taken the job that I liked because of who my character was involved with. So, you know, I was kissing girls in the third movie I ever did, and I have in and out of jobs for my whole career. And so it never. It wasn't really a worry for me because I'd never been given the message, you did this movie or you did this TV show, don't do that again. I never got that. I have had some people, again, folks a little older than me, who I think are used to the industry as it has been, not necessarily where it's going, say to me, like, you might want to tone it down a little bit, like, be happy, but you don't have to go everywhere together. And I'm like, oh, I'm about to become such a pain in your ass. I'm gonna go everywhere. Like, on her back. Yeah, get ready.

[Don Lemon]

Someone said that to me.

[Sophia Bush]

Did they?

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, your husband is everywhere with you. And I showed them pictures of straight couples, and I went, you know, such and such. They're always together. I said, you guys have little cute names for them, like Bennifer and, you know, whatever. And it's just so, like, what is that? Yeah, why is. What's the difference?

[Sophia Bush]

And that's what I think people don't quite realize when people say, oh, well, what are kids Gonna think if there's two princes kissing in a Disney movie someday. I'm like, well, they've seen the prince and the princess kiss in every movie ever. And no one talks about it. No one's ever not asked a kid how their mom and dad are doing. It's okay to say, how are your moms?

[Don Lemon]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, it's okay to include people. You're not losing anything. You've just always had everything.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think for me, having been in on both sides of the relationship spectrum, I'm like, so if this relationship is the best one I've ever been in, you want me to talk about it less? No.

[Don Lemon]

And this whole thing, this whole indoctrination thing, like, this is indoctrination. And I said, you know what? I grew up in the south going to Catholic school and a Southern Baptist Missionary Baptist church. And I said, if that wasn't indoctrination, wouldn't you think if indoctrination. Indoctrination was real, that that would have made me a heterosexual? And they're like.

[Sophia Bush]

If people could change who they are, we'd literally all be the same.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

That would just be it.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. And why do you care, though?

[Sophia Bush]

I know, I know. Why does it matter? Why does it matter?

[Don Lemon]

I don't care.

[Sophia Bush]

Do you think, looking back, coming out, finding the love of your life, being married, shifting into your own show, that is completely in your control as this is in mind so we can say shift and all the other words that we were talking about earlier, like, do you just feel in your life more and more yourself, more and more free?

[Don Lemon]

I do. I mean, I felt that way for a while, but now even more so because it's all me. I don't have to worry about anybody else. I don't have to worry about the boss and even advertisers. I get to pick the advertisers.

[Sophia Bush]

Me too. I love it.

[Don Lemon]

Right? I get to pick them. And I get to. I'm like, you want me to say, hey, you need to buy such and such and such and such. Send me a sample if I like it.

[Sophia Bush]

Because I'm not gonna lie.

[Don Lemon]

I'm not gonna lie. And so I don't have to worry about, oh, my God, I'm gonna piss off some advertiser. It's like, no, if you don't wanna advertise on my show, don't need ya. Yeah, I love it. I know. Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm really happy for you.

[Don Lemon]

I'm so glad we met. This is crazy. So glad we know each other.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, now we know each other better.

[Don Lemon]

We only met like we met at the White House correspondence dinner. Yeah, but weren't you on my show? Didn't you come on or something you were doing.

[Sophia Bush]

No, the embarrassing thing is at this point, I can't remember.

[Don Lemon]

Same.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, if I can look up a day or a photo, I go, oh, and it was for this. Oh, and you were wearing that. It immediately comes back. But now it's like all of it's a little bit of a blur maybe.

[Don Lemon]

But I don't remember. People say, you know, I was on your show for such and such and such, and I can't remember. But the thing is, is that what they don't realize is that when I was on for two hours a night for a long time, and I would just sit in the chair, and they would shuffle guests in and out, and so I would go, okay, what guest is this? And they go, I can't remember anything.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, I have a thing. And I wonder if you do, too. I know this is from acting. Cause my job is to memorize 10 pages of information and all the subtext about the emotions and then throw it away the next day and do it again. So it'll be gone. And I'll be like, give me a. Where were we? What was that? And the minute it jogs my memory, the whole scene is back. And I'm like, oh, yeah, we were in Austin at the proper hotel, and you had on a purple sweater. Oh, my God. And I was eating that club sandwich. God, that was good. I wish I could have another one. And people are like, oh, okay, Rain Man. Like, what's going on here? But it's back. And I would imagine you have a version of that where you can be like, oh, my God, it was the night of this, and this crazy thing had happened, and we were running down the halls to get on the air to do the breaking news or whatever.

[Don Lemon]

But you need something to jog your memory.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

How do you remember? Because I had the best. I would remember when I was in kid. When I was a kid, and I would remember the entire school play.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And everybody's part.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I know everybody's lines.

[Don Lemon]

And now I'm like, give me that again. And maybe it's because I'm so used to notes and teleprompters, or had been, but.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. I also think it's different muscles. And I think you have to remember that the thing you did for three months when you were 16 was 1/4 of one sixteenth of your life.

[Don Lemon]

Right. Right.

[Sophia Bush]

Right now, in your 50s, when you're doing 15 four minute segments a night, it's like it's a blip on the radar. It's like, what even is that? So it's harder to remember. But I do think the memories are in there.

[Don Lemon]

No, but I mean, how do you memorize the lines? Like, I watched, I went to watch.

[Sophia Bush]

I spend a lot of time with them.

[Don Lemon]

You do.

[Sophia Bush]

And for me particularly, you know, as an actor, you do a lot of adr, so a lot of sound looping when the picture gets locked to make all the sound perfect with the engineers. So I learn dialogue like I learn songs. So I learn the rhythm of a scene and then it can change with my scene partner. But when I get the rhythm of it down, it's like I find the music and then I don't forget it. Like you will, you will never catch me not able to remember all my favorite hip hop from the 90s because like the, the rhythm of it is like in me.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And so it's, it's a, a similar journey as an actor. And funnily enough, the other night I was at an event and this country song from 1999 came on. And I was a dancer in high school and my senior project, because I had focused a lot on like hip hop and jazz, was to study country music in the history of line dancing. So there were like five country songs we learned these dances to. And one of them came on the other night at an event. And I was like, I know every word to this Brooks and Dunn song. What's Happening to Me? And all my friends were like, who are you? Who is this woman?

[Don Lemon]

Call me.

[Sophia Bush]

And I was like, listen, I couldn't have picked it out of a lineup, but playing I know this and I will not line dance for you. Cause I'm out of practice. But like I remember a couple of steps still. We are absolutely over time. And I want to be respectful of your day. And I just looked at the clock and I'm mortified. But I'm having the best time, so I'm gonna skip ahead. Cause really we've talked about all these things. I didn't need the. I didn't really need it. But I wanna ask you my last and favorite question, which, especially given this conversation, feels like so momentarily topical for you. Everything seems and feels across this table. Great. As you're in this moment in your life and you look forward and you think about what you want to do and where you want to go, what feels like your work in progress. Right Now?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I mean, you know, one would think I would say, you know, my show and my career, but I really think it's home and family, like I need to, I try to work on being more present. And, you know, I sit there and I go, oh, my God, this is, I go from appointment to appointment. It's like I have one in 10 minutes, right, that I'm late for. That's okay, that's okay. But I go from one thing to the next and then I have to take those little moments and sit there and go, you know what? But if I were working in a traditional or old school media, if I were to do whatever, I would not be able to sit here and spend all this time with my little dogs who only get such a small portion of our lives, who are only here for such a small portion of our lives. Or I'll say I would not be able to plan a dinner with my husband. And so I want to lean more into that because as a man of a certain age who never thought that they'd be able to get married, that he would be or I would be able to get married, I think that is perhaps the reason that I have been thrust in this position now is to lean more into my life and not necessarily like, oh, what am I going to do for a career that all manages somehow to take care of itself. Yeah, yeah. Because you can quit a job, but more often than not, people quit relationships and when they should, you know, when it was not necessary for them to be able to do it because they didn't work on it enough.

[Sophia Bush]

Right. Yeah. I think when you love your life, you want to lean into it.

[Don Lemon]

Being present. That's it.

[Sophia Bush]

That's it.

[Don Lemon]

And listening more. That's my work in progress.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that. Thank you so much.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you. It was a real pleasure. Thank you.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Don Lemon]

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[Glenn Washington]

I'm Glenn Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from KQED. Every week, we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside the them. Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two. What do you believe? What do you risk? What do you want? Snap Judgment New episodes every Thursday. Wherever you get your podcast.

[Don Lemon]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Don Lemon]

This is an iHeart podcast.