Work in Progress: Malin Akerman

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Work in Progress with Sophia Bush”

Episode: Work in Progress: Malin Akerman

Release Date: September 24, 2025
Host: Sophia Bush
Guest: Malin Akerman
Main Theme: Redefining Authenticity, Representation, and Joy – On the Professional, the Personal, and the Fluid

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Overview

This episode features actress and advocate Malin Akerman (“The Hunting Wives,” “27 Dresses,” “Billions”) in an intimate, wide-ranging conversation with Sophia Bush. The discussion dives into Malin’s transformative new series The Hunting Wives, queer and female representation on screen, the evolution of self-worth and confidence, intergenerational change in mental health conversations, and the deep value of authentic relationships—both with others and with oneself. The tone is frank, supportive, celebratory, and often laugh-out-loud funny.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Names, Heritage, and Friendship (04:32–08:36)

• Pronunciation & Identity: Malin shares the correct Swedish pronunciation of her name ("Malin Ockerman"), and how it becomes “Malin” in Canada and the U.S.
  • Quote: “If we were to say it in Swedish, it’s ‘Malin Ockerman.’” – Malin Akerman (06:43)
• Decades-Long Friendship: The two recall nearly 20 years of friendship, highlighting joyful shared moments, mutual growth, and cheering for each other’s wins.
  • Quote: “There’s nothing better than seeing your friends win.” – Sophia Bush (08:24)
• Sisterhood & Community: Malin reflects on the importance of supportive female circles, uplifting each other, and what it means to rule the world together.
  • Quote: “…when we prop each other up, when we support each other, girl, we can rule the world. Hell yeah!” – Malin Akerman (09:13)

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2. Childhood, Self-Perception, and the “Gremlins” Within (10:15–13:43)

• Revisiting the Inner Child: Sophia asks if Malin’s young self would recognize who she became.
  • Malin recalls being “so shy and so insecure, but still very goofy and positive.”
• Life Paths & Self-Talk: They reflect on pivotal choices, and Malin underscores the importance of mentors who helped her focus on the “silver lining” instead of “downward spirals.”
• Addressing Self-Doubt: Malin talks about the ongoing process of quieting inner critics (“gremlins") and teaching her son to do the same:
  • Quote: “I really don’t like to voice them out loud because I don’t want to give them power.” – Malin Akerman (12:11)

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3. Cultural Roots, Moving Between Worlds, and Looking After Each Other (14:38–18:45)

• Dual Citizenship: Malin describes growing up between Sweden and Canada—frequent flights, split parents, and how this formed her worldview.
  • Both nations’ systems, she notes, are rooted in communal care (“you get a return on your investment”—15:22).
• Formative Experiences: Sophia and Malin exchange stories about their own multicultural or multi-place upbringings, agreeing it fostered curiosity, empathy, and a sense of global citizenship.
  • Quote: “I think being a global citizen is really, really important… being open to discussion… there’s so much beauty to be found.” – Malin Akerman (18:15)

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4. Activism, Advocacy, and Representation—On-Screen and Off (25:08–28:48)

• Logic versus ‘Alternative Facts’: They lament the cultural shift away from logical, community-first policymaking and toward divisive “identity wars.”
• Cultural Context & Courage: Sophia admires the fact that The Hunting Wives breaks boundaries as the “gayest show on TV” (26:28), premiering at a time when LGBTQ+ stories face pushback.
• Representation With Subtlety: Malin discusses how the show’s approach—fluidity, identity, sexuality—resonates because it avoids labeling and instead lets characters simply exist.
  • Quote: “It’s not like coming out and going, ‘this is the L Word’… but it is an exploration of what it is to be human.” – Malin Akerman (26:57)

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5. The Hunting Wives—Casting, Character, and Breaking Taboos (31:36–38:02)

• How the Role Arrived: Malin received all eight scripts at once (rare for TV), initially doubting the character but quickly realizing its depth.
• Her Husband’s Support: Her partner championed her taking the role, valuing projects that showcase her full talent (32:04–33:24).
• Taboos & Representation: They delve into the show’s sex scenes—specifically a pegging scene that Malin found daring and significant for TV.
  • Quote: “That was sort of the nail in the coffin for me was that scene… this is so brave.” – Malin Akerman (35:05)
• Breaking Shame Around Sex: The conversation opens up about changing public attitudes to topics like pegging, shame, and honesty about sexuality, with anecdotes from both Sophia’s and Malin’s lives.

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6. Intimacy, Marriage, and Emotional Growth (38:23–51:10)

• Relationship Transparency: Malin explains how mutual respect and open conversation form the backbone of her marriage. Her husband’s support is rooted in never wanting to “put her in a cage.”
  • Quote: “He would never try to change that because that’s what he fell in love with.” – Malin Akerman (40:22)
• Navigating On-Screen Intimacy: Open communication, trust, and understanding the realities of shooting such scenes are key. At 47, Malin is confident in what she wants, and values honesty and boundaries (42:20–42:40).
• Self-Love as Prerequisite: The two affirm that genuine love for oneself is essential for loving or partnering with someone else.
• Progress in Female Representation: They contrast past experiences (the male-gaze-driven kiss in “John Tucker Must Die”) with the female gaze of The Hunting Wives, and how much more authentic and nuanced queer intimacy is now portrayed (49:32–51:10).

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7. Fluidity, Labels, and Being Seen (51:10–58:31)

• Intimacy & Visibility: Sophia observes that seeing genuine, tender intimacy (not just sexual) between women is having an impact, even on viewers who aren’t queer.
• Bisexual and Queer Visibility: Malin touches on the complexities and pressures around labeling, biphobia, and belonging.
  • Quote: “The fact that we have to label it all the time is a shame…most people are born fluid, and I think that society just kind of says you have to be one or the other.” – Malin Akerman (57:33)

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8. Breaking Free from Scripts, Building Authenticity (63:32–66:45)

• Rejecting Perfection: Sophia recounts breaking down a “picture perfect life” to be true to herself, and the difficulty society imposes on straying from traditional paths.
• Societal Pressure: Both note that mainstream norms may push people into “traditional marriage” even if it’s toxic, rather than supporting genuine happiness in nontraditional relationships.

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9. Entertainment as Catalyst for Change (68:25–71:46)

• Power of Entertainment: They assert TV’s transformative influence on public attitudes, citing “Will and Grace” as a catalyst for civil rights advances.
  • Quote: “Entertainment…is the most powerful medicine.” – Sophia Bush (69:13)
• Mental Health as a Cause: Malin shares her personal connection to mental health advocacy—caring for a depressed parent, supporting her own son, and the need for open conversations in schools.
  • Quote: “To give children especially a voice is really huge.” – Malin Akerman (73:53)

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10. Advocacy, Community Engagement, and “Silver Linings” (73:35–79:45)

• Malin’s Charities:

  • Children’s Mental Health: Angel Carter’s organization offering resources for kids and schools.
  • Environmental Media Association and Opportunity International (micro-financing for women).

• Engagement Over Perfection: Both advocate for finding any avenue to get involved—money, time, word of mouth.

  • Quote: “Sustained engagement is what really creates change…giving your time is just as valuable.” – Sophia Bush (77:06)

• Ongoing Growth: Malin closes by embracing being “a work in progress,” emphasizing the importance of authenticity, positivity, and always looking for “the silver lining.”

  • Quote: “Here I am. I finally see who I am…and I’m loving it.” – Malin Akerman (78:25)
  • Quote: “There always is a silver lining. Always.” – Malin Akerman (79:45)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Supportive friends? We can rule the world!” – Malin Akerman (09:13)
• “I really don’t like to voice them out loud because I don’t want to give them power.” – Malin Akerman (12:11)
• “It’s not a prestige show...it’s popcorn, entertainment, but...just real, inherent human curiosity and people being fluid.” – Malin Akerman (26:57)
• “We don’t have jealousy in our relationship…we’re not those people.” – Malin Akerman (41:00)
• “Most people are born fluid…society says you have to be one or the other.” – Malin Akerman (57:33)
• “You have to love yourself first in order to love somebody else. It’s as simple as that—and the hardest thing to do.” – Malin Akerman (48:08)
• “Entertainment is the most powerful medicine.” – Sophia Bush (69:13)
• “Here I am. I finally see who I am...and I’m loving it.” – Malin Akerman (78:25)

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Important Timestamps

• Name Pronunciation & Heritage: 06:36–08:32
• Female Friendship & Advocacy: 08:12–09:35
• Inner Child and ‘Gremlins’: 10:15–13:43
• Queer Representation & The Hunting Wives: 26:00–29:00
• Breaking Taboos (Pegging, Sex, TV): 31:36–38:02
• Intimacy, Marriage, Authenticity: 41:00–51:10
• Labels, Biphobia, Fluidity: 56:39–58:31
• Mental Health Journey & Advocacy: 70:02–75:46
• Season 2 Announcement: 77:32–78:05
• Final Reflections / Silver Lining Wisdom: 78:25–79:45

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Takeaways

• Malin Akerman embodies both “masterpiece” and “work in progress,” championing growth, vulnerability, joy, and authentic representation.
• The Hunting Wives is more than a buzzy streaming hit—it represents progressive, nuanced, and fluid queer storytelling at a critical cultural moment.
• Real intimacy—on screen and in life—requires curiosity, communication, and the courage to be seen.
• Change is cumulative and collective: Whether through entertainment, activism, or friendship, small actions and honest conversations are a powerful force.

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For more:

• Watch The Hunting Wives on Netflix
• Visit onoursleeves.org for children’s mental health resources
• Explore the Environmental Media Association and Opportunity International

Season 2 of The Hunting Wives premieres Summer 2026.

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Transcript

[Host]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Malin Akerman]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Sophia Bush]

Hi everyone, it's Sophia.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Welcome to Work in Progress.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, hey everybody. Or if we're talking about today's guest, should I say hey, y'?

[Host]

All?

[Sophia Bush]

I am so excited that one of my favorite women in this industry is here for an interview I've been dying to do. Because like all of you, I am absolutely obsessed with the hunting lives. Malin Akerman is here with us today. Friends, you know her from 27 dresses to billions. She is one of the most incredible chameleons in our industry. Always full of charm, always full of conviction. And she makes every project she's a part of better. And now she is the talk of the town. Thanks to the Hunting Wives on Netflix, we've just found out we're getting a season two. Thank God, because we need more of this twist filled sexy series. Fans and critics alike have been blown away by Marlon's bold, layered, courageous performance. And she is officially in the canon of queer icons now. Not only is she such an advocate for women to be represented and seen and to be written in whole and exciting ways. She's also an outspoken advocate for children's mental health. She is an incredible mother and she is someone I am so proud to call my friend. Let's dive in and talk all things with Malin. I have a way. I really like to start with people, but with you, I want to start in a very unique manner because you are One of my favorite humans and also one of the two Swedes in my life for so long. Well, women. I also have a lovely, handsome Swedish man who makes one of my best friends very happy. But one of the things I love about my other amazing, hot, iconic female Swedish friend, Tovlo, is that she's like. Yeah, that's not actually how I say my name. Like, her name is Tov Tuvalu.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

So I'm like. Everyone is always like, malin Ackerman. How do you actually pronounce your name?

[Malin Akerman]

So if we were to say it in Swedish, it's Malin Okeman.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Malin Akerman]

Which sounds almost Jamaican with it.

[Sophia Bush]

There's almost like a.

[Malin Akerman]

There's a cadence to Swedish.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, no, it is more of an A than I'm saying. Malin.

[Malin Akerman]

Malin.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

It's the I that, like, kind of rolled. So that's why when it's translated, we just. My mom, when we moved to Canada, she would just say it, but try to make it more English, and she'd say Malin.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

But everyone here wants to say Malin or Malin because that's how it's spelled. Fair enough. But if we were to add an L, then that would probably help out like a shopping mall. And going in it.

[Sophia Bush]

Interesting.

[Malin Akerman]

That's how it's kind of pronounced.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay, cool. I like it. Yeah, thanks. I like it a lot. It's also not lost on me because, you know, my dad is Canadian.

[Host]

Yep.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, the Canadians can hear each other from a mile away.

[Malin Akerman]

Oh, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

So you've got the Swedish and you've got that certain sound like it comes over everywhere for our US Friends, listening people are like, well, what do you mean? They always think it's just about. But it's like Americans say Toronto.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, I'm going to Toronto, and Canadians say Toronto.

[Malin Akerman]

Toronto.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like Montreal. Not Montreal.

[Host]

No.

[Sophia Bush]

And so I hear that, and I'm just aware of all the accents in your life.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

You've got, like, a one degree of separation there. Yeah, there's a few coming in there.

[Sophia Bush]

I love it. I also, for our friends at home, feel so amped. I was telling the whole team, since we're here in person today, that we've known each other for almost 20 years.

[Malin Akerman]

Honey, it's been a long. I have a picture of you kissing my pregnant belly.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my God.

[Malin Akerman]

At the dinner in Washington, dc.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Malin Akerman]

Do you remember that?

[Host]

Yes.

[Malin Akerman]

Like, we have known each other a lot, and now my boy is 12 years old.

[Sophia Bush]

It's so crazy. And it's like there's nothing better than seeing your friends win.

[Malin Akerman]

Yes, absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

So happy for you.

[Malin Akerman]

Seeing your friends, period, or see your friends win? Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

I mean, both. But it's just like.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Sophia Bush]

I just love it. I love it. I love it. Really felt geeked last weekend, you know, Emmy weekend. All the things happening, watching people like run across a room to be like, you're so amazing. You're so hot. I was like, she is. And it was just great. I really love, I just love this moment.

[Malin Akerman]

I love it. It's been so much fun and it's so fun. It was such a fun weekend. And just to look back and just see your smiling face every now and then, I mean, it was just. It just felt so beautiful. Because like you said, I'm the same. I think when my friends are winning, I get so excited. You know, Michelle Monahan is a really good friend of mine and the White Lotus and like, there's just so much to celebrate. And it's so lovely to have girlfriends like that because girls can really just when we prop each other up, when we support each other, girl, we can rule the world. Hell yeah. So it just is fun and beautiful to look around and feel like I've got to. Great group of girls around me and that is really special.

[Sophia Bush]

It's amazing.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think especially to be in the moment we're in, in our lives where we've gone through the early career stuff. Brittany and I were talking about this in a way, like you meet some of your favorite people and then everyone gets scattered all over the world working like, you know, marbles. And you go through growth. You probably evolve out of some friendships that aren't the best for you.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And then you like come back to your core humans and you go, oh my God, I feel like I've. Have I nailed it?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Am I nailing it?

[Malin Akerman]

Totally. That's the best part. You're like, I've got people to share this with. This is awesome.

[Sophia Bush]

The thing I normally ask people, and I'm excited to hear your answer, especially because you have a 12 year old, is, you know, everybody tunes in, they listen, they've watched the show, they've watched all your films, they know you and your work. I'm always really curious if as an adult at this point in your career, this point in your personal journey, if we could like be in a Sci Fi show and we could walk onto the playground and see our eight year old selves or our nine year old selves, like if you got to hang out with that little girl Would you, would you see yourself in her? Does the sort of through line of the woman you've become make sense across the journey? Or do you think she'd be like, sorry, what is your life? You're doing what for a living?

[Malin Akerman]

If you showed her the hunting wives, she'd be like, what?

[Sophia Bush]

Well, I think we could get maybe like arrested for that.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, totally. You can't show an eight year old that. I think there are pieces to it, that track. But I also think if I look at that little eight year old girl, I was so shy and so insecure, but still very goofy and positive. So there was like this combination where I go, yeah. I mean, I feel like everyone has two paths that they can take in life or many, but two specific, like one that kind of goes down a downward spiral and one that just conquers everything. And so I can see both of those things and the little eight year old. But I definitely could have seen it go a different way had I listened to all the little gremlins that were in my head. But luckily along the way there were mentors and people that just kept showing me that silver lining.

[Sophia Bush]

Wow, what are your gremlins?

[Malin Akerman]

You know, I really don't like to voice them out loud because I don't live to give them the power. I like that I've worked a lot on quieting them and I work a lot with my son on that right now on anything that's bothering him to bring his truthful voice out, his gut voice versus the gremlins that are telling him things. And usually those gremlins are also other kids being mean or whatever it is. And then you start to believe those things as truths. So we speak a lot about that and just not giving it power. So I don't ever like to voice them out loud. I know they're mine. I mean, I will to my therapist, but that's my biggest work in progress is just being more in my own power, in my own shoes and listening to my gut, which was not always easy and is still a work in progress.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, it's such a hard journey.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I especially think that the era we came up in, yeah, the way women were treated in the media, the way, I mean, it was just so vicious and it was designed to make us crazy and to take. I love the way you say it, like, don't give them power. It's like I've decided to sort of name mine. I'm like, there's a little self doubt monster and there's all these little monsters and Every week in therapy, I'm like, all the monsters get to come to the tea party.

[Malin Akerman]

Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

And my higher self is gonna entertain them and then put them back in their place. But it's. It's so interesting the way you phrase it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Sophia Bush]

Feed your goodness and your power instead of the other side of the seesaw we all have. And. And that you can see, like, oh, it could have split here. Oh, this could have changed that. You know, for some reason, you saying that about your young self made me think. Yeah, I have all my own versions of that. But the way I get to watch my partner live and the person that she is like, you know, she is very clear about how access to sport, that was the thing that pulled her down the good path when everything around her was dangerous and scary. And I don't know, I think about, particularly for all of us, what sport and what the arts do for people, but especially for women.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

Like, it's huge.

[Sophia Bush]

It changes everything for us.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

When did you start to get into that as a kid? Because I know, you know, you moved from Sweden to Canada.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

How.

[Sophia Bush]

That's obviously a crazy culture shock. You know, it's a crazy shift.

[Malin Akerman]

Do you know what's interesting is that I would say that Sweden and Canada have a lot of similarities, you know, because.

[Sophia Bush]

Kindness.

[Malin Akerman]

Kindness, yeah. There's a little more logic, and politically in the past, it hasn't been so torn. And so it was a pretty logical place to grow up. Like, you put money into taxes and they go to healthcare and you get free health care and you get free schooling and university. It costs me $4,000 a year to go to university.

[Sophia Bush]

You mean you get a return on your investment?

[Malin Akerman]

Exactly. And same with Sweden. It's free university and everything. It works. And so that wasn't a huge. There wasn't really a huge culture shock. Again, I was two years old, so I wouldn't have noticed a difference.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, that's true. You're so small.

[Malin Akerman]

But looking at it and going. And my dad moved back to Sweden when I was 6, so I spent a lot of time going back and forth and comparing the two, you know, unconsciously just comparing them, but it felt like a. Like there was a similarity. I think it would have been very different going from America to Sweden. Yeah, there is more of a culture shock there. But I loved growing up in Canada, and that was, you know, it was hard because my dad went back to Sweden when I was six and I was such a daddy's girl, but he had to do it because we just didn't have finances. And he got a better job offer in Sweden and my mom wanted to stay in Canada, she preferred it there. So it was an amicable split, thank God. But I would be. I would get on a plane at 6 years old by myself and like do the chaperone thing and go see my dad in the summer and spend the summers there. So it was again, silver linings to everything where you're like, I got this beautiful sort of duality of culture growing up, where I spent three to four months in Sweden, March breaks and Christmas stuff, and then also the influence of Canada and growing up there. And I think you had a question, but I don't remember what it was.

[Sophia Bush]

I don't really either, but I love it. It's like, I think sometimes when people ask me about perspective, you know, when you talk about logic, the sort of inherent desire to take care of your neighbors and to know that they're valuable, I really think that kind of duality in childhood can give that to you. It's like being shown rather than being told.

[Host]

Yeah, always.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think a lot about it because, you know, I grew up here. My dad came from Canada in the 70s to go to art school. My mom moved out here from New York. I grew up here in the middle of la, but it was like very normal, cute, normal little neighborhood.

[Malin Akerman]

So crazy to say about la. Cute, normal little neighborhood.

[Sophia Bush]

Like a normal little neighborhood. Like nobody had a big fancy house. Nobody was doing any of what you see on selling Sunset or whatever now. And my childhood was summers up in a 5,000 person cattle ranch town in central California.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Sophia Bush]

And so like we would catch frogs on Friday nights in the creek. Like that's what there was to do.

[Malin Akerman]

Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

And the back and forth of it, I think really now, reflecting back, if I hung out with my 8 year old self, I'd realize the reason I love people and I love the world so much is because I get so excited to dip into anyone's place, space, culture, city.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And figure out what they like to do on a Friday night.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

And that's huge. And I think that is. I think being a global citizen is really, really important. And I think being curious about other people and being open to discussion about, you know, advancing that a little further, not just what they do on a Friday night, but like, what's your life like and what are your beliefs and why and what do you care about? Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Who makes you feel seen not just.

[Malin Akerman]

In your own little circle? Because we all have the Same opinions. But when you reach outside and you kind of see the world for what it is, there's so much beauty to be found in it.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.

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Hey friends, let's be real for a second. Mornings can be tough. We're all rushing to get out the door, and sometimes the last thing we want to do is spend an hour. Who has an hour for a beauty routine? That is where our friends at Merit come in. And let me tell you, it's a game changer. Merit is all about simplifying beauty without sacrificing results. They make clean, vegan and cruelty free makeup that helps enhance your natural beauty in just minutes.

Seriously, their products are so easy to.

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Trust me, you will love how easy it is to feel beautiful with Merit. That's meritbeauty.com oh, friends, fall is in full swing. I am so happy. And it's the perfect time to refresh our wardrobes. Let's do it with pieces that feel as good as they look. Our friends at Quints make it easy to look polished, stay warm, and save big without compromising on quality. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100 Mongolian cashmere from just $50. Washable silk tops and sleep skirts and perfectly tailored denim. All at prices that feel too good to be true. As an East Coaster, I am eyeing their wool coats for fall. They look designer level but cost a fraction of the price. And that's because Quint's partners directly with ethical top tier factories. They cut out the middlemen so they.

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Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard. For me, a standard that matters to me is being a friend, being a person, being a coworker who shows up.

The standard Lexus has set for themselves.

Is to experience amazing. Lexus benchmarks are feelings, things like exhilaration and joy. And amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. It's feeling like your car was designed and built just for you. A machine that makes you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. So experience amazing at your Lexus dealer.

Oh friends, if you are a parent, an auntie, an uncle, if you have kids in your life in any fashion, you know getting them to do math can be exhausting. And we get it. Even as adults, we wish we had.

To do less math.

But the thing is, it's important. It's central to everything about our lives and our businesses and how we function in the world. We want to give those tools to our kids, right? But it can be really hard to get them to get excited about math. Luckily, there's something making a real difference for families. Prodigy. It's the online Math platform that turns learning into a game.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

A game that kids actually want to play.

[Sophia Bush]

And it's not fluff.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Prodigy teaches the same math they're learning in class and it's trusted by over 800,000 teachers. It was voted the number one game based learning tool by kids themselves, which says a lot. Last year, more than 22 million students used it and 91% of parents said their kids genuinely enjoy it. If you are looking to make math feel less like a battle and more like an adventure, go to prodigy.com right now you can get up to 50% off a parent membership so your kids can start learning for less than $5 a month. Affordable, effective, where learning can be joyful again. Go to prodigy.com and check it out.

You won't be disappointed.

[Sophia Bush]

It's interesting too for us to be sitting here in this moment because we have been activists and advocates for such a long time. We do live in a. In a time where things have shifted away from the logic you speak of. Like when you were talking about the logic of Canada, I was like, you mean you don't have alternative facts? It's like an alternative fact is a lie.

[Malin Akerman]

Exactly.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

There is a lie.

[Sophia Bush]

Like we can have differences of opinion, but like, for example, I'm like, racism is not a difference of opinion. No, like that. Don't know. We're not going to do that. We're not going to. Excuse me, cruelty and call it thought.

[Malin Akerman]

No.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, and we do seem to be in this place. I mean, we don't seem. We see it where we are going down this really dark path.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And this is gonna seem like a weird moment to segue to your wonderful show. But stay with me here. I see so many people being scared to be seen. So many people understand that their identity is threatened now, that their ability to have rights is threatened now. I've been putting this movie together and literally everywhere people are like, oh, no, no, no, we can't touch queer content right now. And then along comes the Hunting Wives.

[Malin Akerman]

Gayest show on tv. They sure did.

[Sophia Bush]

And I just am like, not only is it an important thing to have out in the Zeitgeist, but right now?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

That your show is the biggest show on streaming right now.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, how do you wrap your head around that? Not just as an actor, but also as a global citizen, as someone who knows how much representation matters. Like, are you. Do you just feel like you have whiplash all the time?

[Malin Akerman]

A little bit, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Great.

[Malin Akerman]

But like a fun whiplash. A great whiplash. A really Happy one. And like you said, the representation is one we're not. The thing is that we're not presenting as anything. It's just. It's not like coming out and going, this is the L Word, or this is. You know what I mean? But it is an exploration of what it is to be human. I'm not gonna get. This is like. It's not a prestige show. Like Rebecca says herself. It's an anti prestige show. It's popcorn, it's fun, it's entertainment, but it's also just real inherent human curiosity and people being fluid. And we're not. I'm not gonna sit here and say I'm representing the LGBTQ community. But also, I'm so glad that it represents many aspects of it in the community.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

But I think that's also why it's being so widely received, is because no one's putting it in your face going, it's about a bunch of gay women who are. And then some people might just go, I'm not gonna watch something that's gay content. But because it's presenting as Housewives of Texas who are getting it on with each other and, like, exploring their sexuality. And I've said it before, like, I think most people are quite fluid, and society has just put certain boundaries on what a marriage looks like or what a relationship looks like or what humans should look like and what your sexuality should and shouldn't look like. So I just feel like this just creates a bit of freedom, and it's. With both worlds. Conservative and liberal.

[Host]

Yes.

[Malin Akerman]

And it's mixing the worlds together, and we're loving both of them. And so it's this weird combination, this beautiful, magical combination that's just hit home for many people.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, I think that's part of the profundity of it. Like, don't get me wrong, we all love a prestige show. I would actually argue that this also is. But I do think there's a. There's been a strangeness that maybe we haven't necessarily looked at where. Yeah. If. If we're gonna do the L Word, which I love.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, me too.

[Sophia Bush]

They're gonna do it in la. And so then suddenly it's, oh, that's a gay place. Like, I just sent a video yesterday. A waitress in Ohio, like, you know, went to the table to do the thing, and the older woman having dinner with her daughter said, what white wine do you have? And she suggested one, and she said, oh, no, that's from California. I don't support that state. There's too Many gay people there. I'll take the white wine from New Zealand. Oh my God. And the waitress said, you know, there's. Okay, I'm pretty sure there's gay people in New Zealand. And the woman just looked at her and she said, would you like another server? Because, ma', am, I'm a lesbian. And the woman, she said, was so flustered, and she was like, I'll have someone else bring you your wine so you don't have to talk to a gay person. And she did. She gave the table away. And her video made me so sad because I was like, who are we becoming?

[Malin Akerman]

I don't know.

[Sophia Bush]

But I love what you're doing on the show because you're reminding people, like, people are people everywhere. Honestly, everywhere, there's gay people everywhere, there's trans people everywhere.

[Malin Akerman]

Who the fuck cares?

[Sophia Bush]

I know what, who.

[Malin Akerman]

Somebody falls in love with what they do in the fucking bedroom. Who cares? I don't. I don't want to know what that woman does in the bedroom, by the way.

[Sophia Bush]

I don't care.

[Malin Akerman]

But I don't give a. Do whatever you want. If you want to get pegged, then get pegged. Go for it, girlfriend. I said it. I just. Why are we so. There are so many bigger problems than who somebody loves.

[Sophia Bush]

It literally doesn't matter.

[Malin Akerman]

It blows my mind. Love is. Love is love. And thank God there's love. Thank God for it. It saves the world. And why are people so mad at it? You know, it just.

[Sophia Bush]

I can't.

[Malin Akerman]

It makes me really upset. Things like that.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, the thing is, if you can create the illusion of impropriety for something good, or by the way, frankly, something irrelevant, then you can create an identity war. It's like a religious war. Logic can't win it. And then people aren't paying attention to the fact that we don't have healthcare and that our kids can't read or literally smoke mirrors.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, it's smoke and mirrors, of course.

[Sophia Bush]

So it's fun to watch how inherently honest a show like yours is. And that, that honesty actually makes it quite subversive.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, I'm like, this is. Rebecca Ketter has done an incredible job on this.

[Sophia Bush]

Incredible. So when you, you mentioned getting pegged.

[Host]

Uh huh.

[Sophia Bush]

I know from our conversations that you got to that scene and went, oh my God, can you tell the people about first how the show came your way?

[Malin Akerman]

Sure.

[Sophia Bush]

And how you knew you had to do it and how interestingly, your husband was kind of the show's biggest champion.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, okay, he's my biggest champion by the way.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Malin Akerman]

So the whole series landed in my inbox. All eight episodes.

[Sophia Bush]

Wow.

[Malin Akerman]

And that's, as you know, very unusual. Usually you get a pilot and you kind of have to make up the rest and hope that this character goes somewhere cool. So I got all eight episodes. I started reading, and I was in a mood because I just lost a job to a very zeitgeist y show. And literally that day. And I was like. And then this came along, and I was like, what is this? Red state, nra anti abortion? Like, is this who Is this who I'm going to play? Is this it? And that was just like, first episode. And I didn't know what this.

[Sophia Bush]

What was it?

[Malin Akerman]

What was coming.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

And so I read on, and then I handed it to my husband. I was like, can you just read this and, like, let me know your thoughts? Because I'm really starting to fall in love with this character. And I think there's more there. Like, there's an underlying theme in this that is not on the page. And I feel like there's so much to do with this and there's so much to play with. And he started reading it. He goes, are you kidding me? Why wouldn't you do this? I mean, you were tailor made for this. This role is tailor made for you. And I was like, wait a second. That's a loaded comment. You're like, hold on.

[Sophia Bush]

Am I flattered or confused?

[Malin Akerman]

I'm not sure if that's good or not. But he just meant, you know, there are. You'll get to showcase so much of your talent in this, is what he was saying. He is. I mean, I've taken on projects before, and he's like, you're better than this. You should not be doing this. You're so much better than this. And that's such a beautiful thing to say. But at the same time, I'm going, no, I'm not. There's one of my little gremlins coming out. I'm like, no, no, this is fine. This is perfect for little me. I mean, I've got a job. This is amazing. So he's always been pushing me to put my goal a little bit higher for myself. And so this came along, and then I read it. I was reading it, and I was loving every moment of it. It's such a page turner. And then I got to the episode where Callie is with her husband in the bedroom, and spoiler alert, but she pegs him. And now I've had many discussions with friends of mine who are straight men Gay men, women, all across the board who pegging has come up quite a bit over the past few years. People just being honest, it's not like it hasn't existed, it's just people starting.

[Sophia Bush]

To talk about it. People just didn't talk about it.

[Malin Akerman]

Didn't talk about it. And so when this came up, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. I've never seen this on television before. And I bet you so many people will relate to this, will want to try it, will want it, you know, get curious about it. And so that was sort of the nail in the coffin for me was that scene where, you know, I know I wasn't doing the scene, but I just went, this is so brave.

[Sophia Bush]

It's brave.

[Malin Akerman]

Very, very brave to just be out there with that.

[Host]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

By the way, I have, I've been waiting for this. To tell you this story.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

So back in the day, early days of One Tree Hill, my two roommates from college had moved after college to New York and I was basically the third roommate. And I'd fly up there on the weekends to see Ally and Brooke. And one of our best friends, Paul was Ally's coworker at BNC pr, if you remember, like back in the day.

[Malin Akerman]

I don't know, bnc.

[Sophia Bush]

Bradman Nyman Caffarelli, Public relations.

[Host]

Wow.

[Sophia Bush]

And sometimes I would fly to New York for like an audition.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And where was I gonna go? It'd be like a Thursday. I'd be flying up in the morning, flying back on, you know, Eastern seaboard, you know, and I would go to her office and I got to be really, really good friends with Ally's co worker Paul. And at the time, this was probably like 2006. They got hired to do PR for a very high end sex toy company and nobody was talking about sex toys. And I remember Paul being like, you gotta come look at the, the cabinet. And he opened it and we all were like blushing. We were like, what the is all of that? Like what, what?

[Malin Akerman]

A lot of toys.

[Sophia Bush]

And then like you're curious and then you're also like, I have to go because I can't like be seen in public having this conversation. Which is so silly the way we've all been shamed about sex, which people have been having since the dawn of time.

[Malin Akerman]

Sure.

[Sophia Bush]

And I will never forget Paul telling me, I was like, what's the weirdest thing that this company sells the most of? Because they got all the data right. And he said the thing they sell the most of that they are the most Surprised by is strap ons for women in red states to peg their husbands. And by the way, I go, I go, where do they go the most? And he said ironically, Ohio.

[Malin Akerman]

Wow.

[Sophia Bush]

Paul happens to be Paul Downs, the creator of Hacks get out. Yes. Oh my God. And this observance company. When him and Lucia first started working together, writing together, before they were married, they did essentially like a funny or die video called Dildo Sport. And they came up with the idea.

[Malin Akerman]

Because of that's amazing sexway company he.

[Sophia Bush]

Represented for a time. So everyone should watch that. It's on YouTube. It's the funniest thing you've ever seen.

[Malin Akerman]

100%.

[Sophia Bush]

But like when you say nobody talks about it, nobody talks about it because.

[Malin Akerman]

Like you just said, we've all been shamed.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

Sex is normal and kinks are normal. As long as it's two consenting adults. Go for it, baby. Whatever you like.

[Sophia Bush]

Have a nice day.

[Malin Akerman]

I also, I'm very, I am very curious about people's things. Like, I find it fascinating and that's why the conversations have come up and I'm like, what do you, like, what do you guys do? Is there anything fun like? Or do you have a fantasy? Or like, what's something that you are nervous to ask your wife to do? Or your husband? Or like.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Malin Akerman]

Or your boyfriend or girlfriend?

[Sophia Bush]

What's something you've recently learned about your sexuality that surprised you? You know?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Who knows?

[Malin Akerman]

I thought you were asking me.

[Sophia Bush]

You just.

[Malin Akerman]

That's. No, no, no.

[Sophia Bush]

I mean, it's such a nice question, but you can answer it.

[Malin Akerman]

Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

You want to.

[Malin Akerman]

Oh, nothing surprising with my sexual. I know myself very well.

[Sophia Bush]

I love it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Sophia Bush]

That is a question also, if it's not too personal, but to your point, I think people at home might not have people to have these conversations with.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, totally.

[Sophia Bush]

Your husband is your biggest champion.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

He was like, do this show. Go have this conversation about how this woman who lives in a very, you know, like you said, anti abortion place had one.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Which we know is so common because you see these guys passing these laws about our bodies and then we hear about the mistresses whose abortions they've paid for.

[Malin Akerman]

Crazy.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, I, I'm also curious how like, because the show is so sexy.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And it requires a lot of sex. How do you navigate that in your relationship? And how. I mean, your husband is the nicest man. He's also so evolved. So I, I asked this question not specifically for him or for maybe other husbands of queer women. Like, how does he navigate you in your fullness. Like, how does he not get nervous about it or jealous about it?

[Malin Akerman]

Honestly, how did you have the conversation? I have a unicorn. I feel like I really do. I. I think it stems from his father, who. Who is a wonderful human as well. And he said to Jack once. Jack is my husband's name. He said to him once, you know, I met your mother this wild free spirit that I knew I could never put in a cage, nor did I ever want to. So I never, ever tried to change your mother, because she is who she is, and that's who I fell in love with. And I think Jack has taken that on and just gone. You are this whatever X, Y and Z woman that he fell in love with. Whatever he fell in love with with me, he would never try to change that because that's what he fell in love with. I am who he fell in love with. And so whatever I come with is what he wants. And so he's also in the business, so he understands what it really is like to do an intimate scene, as you know, as well.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, my God.

[Malin Akerman]

It's not super sexy, it's not super romantic, it's very technical. But it's beautiful to watch. Once it's all said and done and.

[Sophia Bush]

Once it's edited together and you don't hear the person going, well, I need you to turn your head so 2 inches to the left because you're in this person's light. Like, once that's all gone, it looks great.

[Malin Akerman]

It looks beautiful. Put some music to it, you know, so he knows all of that stuff as well. And then on top of that, I mean, it's like I said, it's mostly me and other women in this show. And that's. A lot of guys will say that that's one of their fantasies is to see their girlfriend or wife or whatever with another woman. And so for him, there's a little bit of like a woo. This is. And sexy. And, you know, Brittany and Jamie Ray, they're just beautiful women. But he's on set, he meets everyone. We make it like a. I know that sounds weird, but like a family affair. It's just. There's the security there and there's no. We don't have jealousy in our relationship. It just. We've got no room for it. We're just not those people. There's no reason to be. You know, we've made this commitment. We know what our commitment is to each other and what our rules and our boundaries are, and we adhere to them, you know, I'm old enough now. I'm 47 years old. I know what I want and I need, and we're very vocal about it. When I was 20, in my 20s, I could never have had these kinds of discussions. I could never have explored the kind of marriage that we have. Like, I just didn't have the vocabulary. I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the confidence. I didn't know who I was. Now I know who I am. And entering into this relationship with Jack, I was very open about who I am, what I want in a relationship. If it's going to work, that I'm still a work in progress, that I probably am going to change, hopefully we'll change together. But I said, you know, in our vows, when we get married, I'm not going to say forever because that would be a lie because I don't know if that's true or not. But every day I'm going to try my best to be the best wife and best partner. But that's all I can promise. So, you know, we have a lot of really great discussions. He's, he's a really great person to talk to. And that's why it works. Communication is key.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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Hey, friends, let's be real for a second. Mornings can be tough. We're all rushing to get out the door and sometimes the last thing we want to do is spend an hour. Who has an hour for a beauty routine? That is where our friends at Merit come in. And let me tell you, it's a game changer. Merit is all about simplifying beauty without sacrificing results. They make clean, vegan and cruelty free makeup that helps enhance your natural beauty in just minutes. Seriously, their products are so easy to use, you barely need a mirror. They have this flush balm. It's a sheer, buildable cream blush that blends seamlessly for a fresh, healthy cheek.

[Malin Akerman]

Flush.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I have it. Le Bon Bon is my favorite shade. And then there's the minimalist. It's a foundation and concealer all in one bless. It gives you natural coverage that lasts all day. I just ordered their Great Skin Serum and cannot wait to try it. It is a daily must have that makes your skin feel instantly hydrated and plump, giving you that dewy fresh glow without all the extra steps.

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Trust me, you will love how easy it is to feel beautiful with MERIT. That's meritbeauty.com Lexus is a company that.

Believes in the importance of setting a standard. For me, a standard that matters to me is being a friend, being a person, being a co worker who shows up.

The standard Lexus has set for themselves.

Is to experience amazing. Lexus's benchmarks are feelings, things like exhilaration and joy. And amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. It's feeling like your car was designed and built just for you. A machine that makes you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. So experience amazing at your Lexus dealer.

Everybody knows that getting kids to do math, let alone be excited about math, can be pretty tough.

I mean, guys, let's be honest.

It's pretty hard as an adult to.

[Sophia Bush]

Get excited about math.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Sophia Bush]

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[Sophia Bush]

What an amazing thing to find that not only your relationship with yourself, but a relationship with yourself that I think when you get forged in both evolution and fire, frankly.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

When you know yourself in a way that you can then have such a healthy relationship with another person and when you get it as essentially a second.

[Malin Akerman]

Chance a hundred percent.

[Sophia Bush]

Like when you did it younger and with less knowledge and it wasn't right for you.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And you figured out how to both own that and extricate yourself from that and not let it harden you to the possibility of something good in the future.

[Malin Akerman]

Absolutely.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

And it's that the two paths where you like you could go down the really dark path or you could go silver lining, where is it? I'll let you down.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

But it's also that I don't know if you've noticed this, but as you get older, all the sayings that we heard told to us as youngins that we could never wrap our heads around and that one real big truth is you have to love yourself first in order to love somebody else. And it's as simple as that. And that's the hardest thing to do.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

But when you start to love yourself, then you start to be able to have a really great relationship with somebody else. And that's been really true. And that's the exploration that I'm having with my husband right now.

[Sophia Bush]

That's beautiful. And it, watching you guys together, like in real, in the real world, people are like, wait, what?

[Malin Akerman]

Not just his, I'm like, no, no.

[Sophia Bush]

He'S not on the show. He's not like secretly on the show. Seeing how lovely and like generative your relationship is together.

[Malin Akerman]

Oh, that's a nice word.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I feel like I can see it in your freedom on camera, you know?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And it's interesting and it's so cool. Like when you've, when you've watched all your friends do all their Things and you, you see them and you're just like, oh, you're in a whole nother. Like you've. I don't know what you're doing, but it's working, like, you know, and you go like, you leveled it up.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like in your spirit.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And. And I love seeing it for you, and frankly, I love seeing you and Brittany have the experience together because, you know, 20 years ago, we were a lot of people's gay awakenings.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

John Tucker must die.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And even that was so through the male gaze, like my character teaching her character how to kiss, and then, you know, the camera turning and realizing a guy was watching.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I remember doing press and being like, you know, we were so lucky we got to do that together. And hearing the way we answered the question and being like, oh, it wasn't about that. It was weird for us to kiss each other. It was like, it didn't feel great to be on camera for like a guy's entertainment in that way.

[Malin Akerman]

Right, Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

And to see you guys just being together, I'm like, we've really made some progress.

[Malin Akerman]

I'm so.

[Sophia Bush]

Same, my girls.

[Malin Akerman]

That was the beauty about this show too, is the beauty of this show, now that we're continuing, is that we. Everything has been through the female gaze.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Malin Akerman]

And that's really cool. I've never experienced that before because like you just said, most of it has been through the male gaze, and that's okay too. But this is our turn. And this is every woman, every director was a woman, and the woman who directed mine and Britney's first intimate scene is Melanie Mayeron, and she is herself a lesbian. And so she's like, I want this to be beautiful. And what we think is sexy and what we deem is sexy and also have that nuance of the tenderness and the love and the excitement behind it, you know, so that was really beautiful to just have that discussion. And Rebecca Cutter as well, who, you know, has been with women and men and just is. Is very open to, to making it just beautiful in, in the way that we feel is beautiful.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, and something that has been really interesting as, you know, a, A queer person is watching rather than like, you know, who's dating. You know, you're dating, you're experimenting, you're doing whatever you're doing, Being in this relationship as long as I've been in it now with Ash, watching some of my straight friends.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And even some friends that realize maybe they're more curious than they thought, observe our intimacy. And I Don't mean like we don't have, you know, someone in the bedroom. But a friend of mine said to me the other day we'd had friends over and like, you're buzzing around, you're hosting. We like, we went around the kitchen island and we like, were talking to each other in the corner and. And we separated and like went and did the thing my friend said. I watched you two have this moment, have this sweetness together. The way you, like, wrapped your arms around each other and kissed each other. And then you looked at each other, you said something, I don't know what it was. You went. She said, my husband has never kissed me like that unless he's trying to me. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. Like the difference in intimacy sure is, I'm realizing is revelatory, even for people who aren't having this intimacy I'm having.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And watching you guys and the way you talk about even how you create it. Do you think there's something that's so amazing for audiences not only because, you know, you are playing a very openly bisexual woman, but because someone who they might feel they identify with, someone like Britney's character, who they, until they learn a little more, they thought was like always straight, is exploring her fluidity. Like, I'm amazed that there's so many women being like, oh, this isn't just a show, as you said at the top, for lesbians. Like, this is a show for everyone. And like, am I, am, am I maybe a little bi? Like, are there things I haven't explored in myself?

[Malin Akerman]

Absolutely. And I think, you know, adultery aside, it's women behaving badly for like in many terrible ways.

[Sophia Bush]

To be clear, for anyone who hasn't seen it, your character on the show is in an acknowledged open relationship.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

But yes, we don't call it open because that's for liberals, as she says.

[Sophia Bush]

That'S for the liberals on the west coast.

[Malin Akerman]

But we have an agreement on how we do our marriage and this is accepted. But I do go outside those boundaries and sleep with a young man.

[Sophia Bush]

That which is, which is a no, no.

[Malin Akerman]

Many no no's in that.

[Sophia Bush]

Like the fact that you're so likable on this show. I mean, you are in life. That, that isn't like a five alarm fire. I'm like, wow, okay, this is really something.

[Malin Akerman]

I think people hated that part the most, which I get, which is it's two tier too young and best friends.

[Sophia Bush]

It's just not.

[Malin Akerman]

And.

[Sophia Bush]

But what I do also find funny is that everyone hates and What a wonderful actor he is, to be clear. Lovely person, but he's playing an unlikable man. Oh, no, Dermot's wonderful. I was gonna say the gentleman who plays Brittany's husband. Oh, I know, I know. Everybody just hates his character. Everyone hates Evan's character so much that they're like, girl, cheat on your husband. He sucks.

[Malin Akerman]

Well, to go back to what you were just beginning in this was, you know, women explore, like, exploring seeing Britney's character. And I think it all comes down to being seen whether you're in a queer relationship or a straight relationship or whatever it is, because I. What you just said about you and Ash, I have with Jack, like, we can have those intimate moments and that. And I said that to him in the beginning. I said that. Listen, I always thought intimacy. I did, as a woman, thought intimacy was physical and sexual and a precursor to sexual 100%. I was like, intimacy. That's what that is. That was the equation for me. And then I started working on myself, and then I met Jack, and I said, listen, I don't think I've ever been truly intimate with somebody I've never shared. I've held everyone at an arm's length to protect myself. And so I'm gonna try this new thing of, like, letting some guards down and let you in and be intimate with you. And that was really hard for me. But that's why our relationship is the way it is. So I think that in this show, intimacy is what's missing in her relationship with her husband, and she finds it. Margot sees her, or at least is feigning to or whatever. However this is unfolding, but to be seen. And I think that Margo is being seen in a different light by Sophie as well, because all of her gals that she hangs out with, it's very. On a very different surface than it is with Brittany, who comes in and is very emotionally intelligent and sees different facets of Margot. And I think the intimacy part is what most people are looking for. And whether it's with a woman or a man or whatever, I wish everyone could go out there and find an intimate partner.

[Host]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, after the four of us were out on Saturday, Ash even was like, oh. She was like, I know, she's our people, but, like, he's also. He's my people.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

He was like, you guys, he had the same thing about Ash.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

He was like, I really like that girl. Girl as she seems so cool. Like, see? Like, can we hang out? I was like, well, they live on the East Coast. But.

[Sophia Bush]

But, yes, next time.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

It's so cool. And how. How does it feel? Like, yes, the representation's gorgeous. And, yes, what a freeing experience to be directed by women and to have real intimacy be part of sexuality instead of sexuality. Be the exclusive representation of intimacy.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, also, even just because you girls are my friends. Like, my DMs are so filled with the whole gay Internet. Who's so happy about this show? How is the experience for you? And I am curious, too, because we are in a moment where queer women who date women and then date men, or queer women who wind up marrying men are in a struggle about what their identity looks like, what biphobia looks like, what the judgment of lesbians looks like. It's a mishmashy mess. How do you see it in terms of what you're representing? What's the feedback? How does it feel? Are you having the best time?

[Malin Akerman]

I'm having the best time. I also don't want to claim that property of I'm. You know what I mean? I don't.

[Sophia Bush]

You're just playing this one woman.

[Malin Akerman]

I'm playing this one woman. And I'm so happy that people are again, feeling seen, maybe, or feeling that there's representation on TV for them. That's all beautiful. And again, it's back to that thing of, like, to have to label yourself is so crazy. It's just all the label actually is. It's condensed to just human or just humans. All of what you just said, like lesbian and then straight and then, or whatever your preference is, that's just the human experience. So the fact that we have to label it all the time is a shame because, again, that comes with different levels of shame. And, like, you know, but. And I'll. I'll say it again, I think most people are born fluid, and I think that society just kind of says you have to be one or the other. You have to fit in a pocket, and you don't.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

And I think that's what's so fun about this show.

[Host]

Yeah.

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[Sophia Bush]

And it's not fluff.

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[Sophia Bush]

By the way, what I certainly learned and I will never forget this sort of aha moment for me of, you know, going through my own dissolution and realizing like I built this picture perfect life. And what I learned in the first year of it was that it really wasn't. And, and how do you reconcile that? And what do you do? And I will never forget having this conversation because I'd, I'd been away from everyone and when you're isolated, it can be harder to deal with hardship. And I remember FaceTiming one of my best friends. I was at the point where I was like, I can only tell two people a day that I have to take apart the whole house I've built essentially like brick by brick and it's too hard to have this conversation. And I called one of my best friends, Rory, who has a phenomenal podcast about the horrors of dating and is coming out with a book like the perfect person to talk about, like, I gotta take it. I'm waking up to the fact that this is so funny and what Am I gonna do? And Rory was like, I'm so proud of you. And we've been waiting, and he's this, that, and the other. Just the most supportive friend. And she said, like, but what happened? Like, what's gone on? You know? Cause I called her from the middle of the night in London, and I was like, ah. I just. Like, we're performers, right? We know how to keep things under wraps. We know how to smile and do our jobs no matter what's going on at home. And I was like, I. Like, in a room, like, full of people, there was, like, press, and I saw a couple of my girlfriends. And, you know, I've been in Europe by myself for three months, and I saw some of my friends, and I was just, like, in the corner with all these great, like, power lesbians sobbing about how bad things are. And she was like, well, yeah, because women, obviously, you need that. She goes, I just have to say, I know your, like, role in life is that you're here to dismantle the patriarchy. You want to create real equity. She was like, I just don't think you like men. And I was like, no, but I do like Kenny and Cameron and all our best friends. She goes, no, no, no, no. I think intimately. I think you think you're into men and women, and I actually think you really don't like men.

[Malin Akerman]

And I was like, yeah, that's gonna be hard to have a relationship with a man. Then I was like, interesting.

[Sophia Bush]

Is there actually a reverse version of this where society has made me think I'm, like, somewhere fluid in the middle, and I'm actually really not?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, is. Is that my moment? Is that a. Huh? I've always been open, but, like, have I been as open as I. As I deserve for myself?

[Malin Akerman]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

And so to your point, regardless of what direction those labels go in, they. I think they can reduce the permission you give yourself to. To find yourself in the world.

[Malin Akerman]

Absolutely. And look how hard it is to be anything other than straight right now and live and adhere to the rules. The rules, whatever those are.

[Sophia Bush]

That part.

[Malin Akerman]

But, yeah, it's much easier to fall into. Let me get the house and the white picket fence and the dog and the babies and the marriage, and you're, like, boring. Like, where is. Who's talking about the intimacy? Who's talking about being seen? Who's talking about communication? What does it look like inside? Behind closed doors?

[Host]

Yes.

[Malin Akerman]

What is that relationship? What should it be?

[Sophia Bush]

It's been really interesting because I have a girlfriend who came from a Very traditional religious. Turned out to be culty, terrifying thing. But had that as well.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And the unpacking we've done recently together of what it looks like to not only have to go through the dismantling of the image of your life, but to reckon with the fact that there is a large part of society that would rather you be in a traditional marriage that is toxic, violent, full of theft.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Full of emotional, fiscal finance, you know, physical. Any kind of abuse than be holistically happy with someone the same gender as you. You're like, whoa, we've gotten so far. I know. It's so crazy.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Like, we're off the track here of.

[Sophia Bush]

Of goodness for people. And so I just love that this show you're making that is. So. You called it popcorn, and I'm like, no, it's art. Because it's. What I experience as a viewer of your show is the camp of it. It's self awareness. It is playing into total subversiveness and total stereotype at the same time, which is so hard to balance. And you're shocking people all the time and reminding people that everyone's kind of going through a version of the same thing in this heightened television environment. And I'm just like, this is what the show we need right now because people are out here coming for gay marriage, and, like, things are crazy, and we needed this.

[Malin Akerman]

I'm so glad. Listen, I give kudos to Rebecca Cutter for creating this. This is really. We're along for the ride. And I'm so happy to be on this ride. And I love it. I think it's brilliant. And I love toeing that line of, like, I say popcorn because I think it's entertaining, you know, and it is. It's entertainment. It's supposed to be entertaining. But, yes, it has definitely a lot of different elements to it that are causing waves, and rightfully so.

[Sophia Bush]

I also think entertainment sometimes gets knocked as though it's frivolous when it's actually the most powerful medicine. Like, the thing that changed American opinion on civil rights for gay people was Will and Grace.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Sophia Bush]

People were like, oh, we love those guys.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, why? Why do we judge people? Like, well, the gay people I know are nice and. Wait a second. And it really helped shift public opinion. And I think it's incredibly important to entertain people and remind them to be curious about their neighbors instead of judgmental.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, you know, absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

It's more valuable now than ever. And I think it's been so valuable for so long, and I think it's why. When people ask why so many entertainers are pro social justice or universal health care or policies that take care of people, it's because we get to know people. People everywhere and every kind of.

[Malin Akerman]

From all different walks of life.

[Host]

Yeah, exactly.

[Malin Akerman]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

Exactly. And even for you, like, your mental health advocacy is something I've always admired, the way you've shared, you know, about your experience, learning to caretake for a parent struggling with depression, like, yeah, parentified child stuff, mental health, like, these are heavy topics, but when brought to light, they. They can be lifted up.

[Malin Akerman]

Absolutely.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

And I think you're right. I think bringing it through entertainment is a great way to do it. So it doesn't. I always think about, like, PSAs and how heavy PSAs can be sometimes. Like, we should find a way to do PSAs that are through comedy so that it really resonates with people. But. But I agree. I just think that, you know, mental health stuff was always, like, nobody talked about it when I was a kid. That was. It just. I didn't even know. I didn't even know that my mom was depressed. I didn't even know that word. So I just was trying to figure out what was happening all the time.

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Malin Akerman]

With. Without talking to anybody, of course, you know, and it was just me and my mom because my dad was in Sweet. So I didn't even tell him, like, what would I say? What were the words that I was going to use?

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Malin Akerman]

So having that now and having a kid who's 12 years old and how they have a class in school every single week called Life Skills, and it's all about mental health and communication and, you know, it's fantastic. I have a boy who talks about his feelings, and that's incredible. And he thinks that that's the right thing to do, you know, and that's. And I know that's not across the board, not everywhere, but I think we're on our way towards that. And the more that we talk about it and the more we put it out there.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, just to say, hey, this happens to everybody.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, Abs. It's so normal.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

Unfortunately.

[Host]

But it is. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

It's really interesting. Do you think. Do you think that was part of what led you before your acting career, to study psychology? Which, by the way, is such good fuel for an acting career.

[Malin Akerman]

I think for sure that's what led me to psychology.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

I think, again, not having access to a therapist or even understanding that that's something that I should be reaching out to, you know, at 17 years old psychology was just so fascinating to me. It was so interesting because all of a sudden I was getting answers to my own questions and going, oh, my God, this could be so helpful for everyone else. And my younger brother had stuff going on and nobody understood it, and schools weren't helping out. He had ocd, but really severe. And so it was really difficult in school for him, and there was nobody there who understood it or could help him. And so I thought, you know what? I met with the Health Minister of Canada. I was like, I'd like to change the school systems, please. I'd like to make sure that we have counselors in every classroom, especially in high school, so they can nip things in the bud and be there to support people. It was all right. Once you've got your education, you come on in and we'll sit down and make a plan. Still waiting for. I mean, you know, acting took over, but I do think that that's what led me into. It was just all the different. And also friends and people in my own high school and two people who took their own lives. Two kids that I knew in high school who took their own lives because of mental health issues, and nobody was talking about it. So it's just stuff like that that I think led me to want to get into it. And yes, great for acting, because you're going into somebody's psyche and going, all right, what's their background and what could have happened in their life?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

Margo Banks.

[Sophia Bush]

Where does Margo come from?

[Malin Akerman]

Oh, boy, that's crazy place story.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

What are for folks at home? What are the things you want them to know about? Not just the show, obviously. Like, if you're living under a rock and you haven't watched it catch up. But in terms of things that are important to you, like what organizations do you want to tell every listener of this show about right now?

[Malin Akerman]

Well, you know, I. Again, mental health is a huge one for me. I want everyone to feel like it's okay to talk about everything that's going on in their lives. And kids specifically are a huge one, because I know certainly growing up, I didn't always have the best mentors. My dad is wonderful, but he was far away. My mom is wonderful, but she had depression. She was struggling in her own stuff. So to give children especially a voice is really huge. So it's a children's mental health organization, and it used to be called on our sleeves, but it's Angel Carter who started it, and she's Erin Carter of the Carter Family. Nick Carter and Aaron Carter went through some severe mental health issues that ended up in his death. And so she started this organization a few years ago, and I absolutely love it. And they have this website that has all these tools for schools, caretakers, anybody, parents on how to begin conversations. They have complete curriculums for schools to incorporate to help children out. So I think that one's really important. Starting from, you know, the ground up. When they're young and susceptible and receptive as well, I think that's really important. So that's one. That's one of my biggest ones. But there's a lot of different. I mean, Environmental Media Association, I've been on the board for that for a very long time. And Opportunity Internet Opportunity International, which is a micro financing organization that focus mainly on women, and they give them financial aid, but also courses on how to start a business and how to sustain that. So it's not just like, here's some money, good luck.

[Sophia Bush]

It's like, here's the seed of what you need, and here's how to build what will sustain you.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

So those just focusing on that kind of stuff.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

Keeping the world turning.

[Host]

Well, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I think speaking truth to power is so important, but if. If we do that and then don't follow it with the opportunity to act, I think we can just make people feel even more scared.

[Malin Akerman]

Absolutely.

[Sophia Bush]

And so the action is so important. And what I love about our jobs and being able to highlight a plethora of things we're passionate about is like, not every listener is gonna say, oh, that's my one issue to one thing.

[Malin Akerman]

Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

Everyone is inspired to do something. And so, you know, when people will say, as I know they said this to you and they've said it to me, is like, oh, you know, you should really pick a lane. It's like, no, I get to be a megaphone, so I can help everyone else pick a lane. I should be a menu. And then everybody else gets to, like, pick what they're inspired about.

[Malin Akerman]

It's just pointing people in the right direction because I know I'm the same way. The things that I'm passionate about is going, well, where do I start? How do I start? I don't want to just, like, also give money, but. But I also want to see, like, on the ground, grassroots.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

What can be done and what are the actions I can take?

[Sophia Bush]

Well, and sustained engagement is what really creates change. Like, yeah, money is valuable. But I know there's college kids who listen to this podcast that are like, hi, I'm broke. And I'm like, yeah, I've. We've been there.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Giving your time.

[Malin Akerman]

Volunteer is just as valuable.

[Sophia Bush]

And. And to. To sustain engagement is what changes community. So it feels.

[Malin Akerman]

Absolutely. Tell people if you're broke, tell people who have money to invest in, people who. To get involved and volunteer. Like, there's so many different ways, but it's like, nowadays, I feel like it's so much easier because you can go online and there are websites. Like, it's at your fingers.

[Sophia Bush]

It's a little fingertips.

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

We never heard of any of this.

[Malin Akerman]

Nope.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay. Before I let you go so you can get to your next thing, when do we get season two?

[Malin Akerman]

Next summer, baby.

[Sophia Bush]

But, like, I want it now.

[Malin Akerman]

I know you're gonna have to wait.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay. All right, good. Next thing.

[Malin Akerman]

That's a better way.

[Sophia Bush]

Because sometimes the streaming shows don't come out for, like, two and a half years.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

So I can.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I can wait a year.

[Malin Akerman]

They got smart. And we're starting already now in November to show. Just found out about season two. Poor Rebecca Cutter is under pressure. Just writing everything. Usually you get, like, five months of a writer's room, but she's got a month and a half till we start.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, honey.

[Malin Akerman]

I hope just for all the fans.

[Sophia Bush]

I hope her writer's room is well caffeinated, well stocked.

[Host]

Yep.

[Sophia Bush]

You mentioned it earlier as working on feeding the good essentially in you. Is there anything else that feels like a work in progress in your life, or is that really the overarching, gorgeous container?

[Malin Akerman]

Yeah, I think that's. I am a work in progress. Yeah, we all are. I am working on myself every single day. And using the pause method of. Before I say anything, what is the purpose and what do I want to put out there and what do I want to get back? But I feel like I've come to a place in my life where I feel like here I am. Oh, I finally see who I am, and I see it. Working on it, but I'm loving it. And so, yeah, I just think my dad is the one who always said, look for the silver lining. And he's been. That's been key in my life because there always is. There always, always is. And the biggest one for me was when my son's father and I split. My first husband and I split. My son was only four months old, and that was really, really tough. And the silver lining was that one of my best girlfriends moved in with me for a year and a half and helped me raise my son. And we had the best time. And I wouldn't have had that had I stayed. Had me and my husband worked out, we would have had a different journey. Would have been different and beautiful and great. But this was awesome.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

So the silver linings are really something to look out for always.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Malin Akerman]

But yeah, just. Just working on, you know, authenticity and positivity.

[Host]

I love that.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, you are a human light bulb. You are the most joyous to be around. Thank you for coming today.

[Malin Akerman]

Thank you.

[Sophia Bush]

And tell Rebecca to write faster.

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[Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.