Work in Progress: Michael Urie

Summary

Work in Progress: Michael Urie
Work in Progress with Sophia Bush, Hosted by iHeartPodcasts
Release Date: June 19, 2025

---

Introduction and Background

In this heartfelt and engaging episode of Work in Progress with Sophia Bush, host Sophia welcomes her longtime co-star and multifaceted artist, Michael Urie. Michael, renowned for his role as Mark St. James on ABC’s Ugly Betty, shares his extensive career spanning television, Broadway, and his current acclaim in Apple TV’s Shrinking, for which he recently won a Critics’ Choice Award. Sophia highlights Michael’s ventures beyond acting, including his humor-driven podcast Still Ugly with Ugly Betty co-star Becky Newton and his co-founding of New York City's Pride Plays, an initiative celebrating and elevating LGBTQ voices in theater.

---

Nostalgic Recollections of Ugly Betty

The conversation kicks off with Michael reminiscing about pivotal moments from Ugly Betty.

Michael Urie [01:53]: "We were the first gay kiss on CBS. And it was a peck. Just a peck."

Sophia adds a touch of humor and affection as they recall their on-set experiences.

Sophia Bush [02:03]: "It was a little smoochy. You were very cute."

Their shared memories highlight both the progress and the challenges of LGBTQ representation during the show's run.

---

Transition to Shrinking and Working with Bill Lawrence

Michael delves into his current project, Shrinking, discussing the influence of creator Bill Lawrence.

Michael Urie [04:38]: "Bill Lawrence... runs such an asshole-free zone... he's a generous, fun, kind man."

Sophia draws parallels with her own experiences on sets, particularly referencing her time on a Shonda Rhimes production.

Sophia Bush [05:40]: "I've had the best and the worst... the Shonda Rhimes set has been wild."

Their dialogue underscores the importance of positive leadership and a supportive environment in the entertainment industry.

---

Reflections on Personal Growth and Acting Career

The duo reflects on their personal and professional growth over the years. Michael shares insights into his character development and confidence as an actor.

Michael Urie [12:36]: "Whenever I think I haven't figured anything out yet, now as a 44-year-old, I think, I don't know anything. I haven't figured anything out yet."

Sophia relates by discussing her own journey and the realization that confidence from youth can be both inspiring and challenging to maintain in adulthood.

Sophia Bush [13:30]: "I love knowing that you have that [confidence]."

---

Representation and Impact of Queer Stories in Media

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the importance of authentic queer representation. Michael discusses the evolution of his character in Shrinking and the broader impact on audiences.

Michael Urie [17:25]: "There's something about these straight guys now, it's pretty moving... they've tapped into a masculine sensitivity."

Sophia echoes the sentiment, emphasizing the positive portrayal of healthy masculinity in media.

Sophia Bush [09:06]: "It's nice to see masculinity that isn't trying to punch you in the face."

Their conversation highlights the strides made in representing LGBTQ characters thoughtfully and the ongoing need for diverse storytelling.

---

Still Ugly Podcast and Its Significance

Michael elaborates on the genesis and growth of his podcast Still Ugly with Becky Newton, tracing its roots back to their time on Ugly Betty and its evolution into a platform for rewatching and discussing beloved episodes.

Michael Urie [30:03]: "We stayed friends all these years. We did a cabaret act together... we were literally like, I had a parking spot at Warner Brothers."

Sophia praises their initiative, noting how the podcast fosters community and provides a space for fans to seek advice and share experiences.

Sophia Bush [33:31]: "Sometimes the people just want an opinion from a friend."

---

Advocacy and Pride Plays

Michael passionately discusses his role in co-founding Pride Plays, an initiative aimed at providing more authentic opportunities for queer stories in theater. He shares the challenges and successes of creating a platform that accommodates diverse narratives within the LGBTQ community.

Michael Urie [60:20]: "We wanted to create this opportunity for people to have opportunities... to represent all of them."

Sophia supports this mission, recognizing the critical need for such initiatives in today's cultural landscape.

Sophia Bush [60:20]: "Do you also see it in that way as helping people be seen, as helping queer stories be seen?"

---

Navigating Adversity and Maintaining Joy

Amidst discussions of advocacy, Sophia and Michael address the exhausting nature of combating ongoing societal challenges against the LGBTQ community. They reflect on maintaining joy and resilience in the face of adversity.

Michael Urie [42:32]: "It's exhausting to have to put out the same fire over and over again."

Sophia highlights the emotional toll and the importance of spaces like the GLAAD Awards for healing and celebration.

Sophia Bush [46:19]: "It's a really big deal. And it was also just the most fun to watch you crush and host."

---

Personal Insights and Future Work

As the conversation winds down, Michael shares his personal work-in-progress areas, including embracing mentorship and balancing his professional endeavors with personal growth.

Michael Urie [67:35]: "There's some adulting that I think is a real Work in progress... I'm still figuring out how do you be a man in this."

Sophia encourages this journey, celebrating Michael’s achievements and his ongoing evolution both personally and professionally.

Sophia Bush [67:35]: "You got to clean house on your end of the things. And we will just be at the GLAAD Awards."

Their final exchanges are filled with mutual support, humor, and a shared commitment to advocacy and representation.

---

Conclusion

This episode of Work in Progress with Sophia Bush offers a deep dive into Michael Urie’s multifaceted career, his dedication to queer representation, and his personal journey of growth and mentorship. Through candid reflections and shared experiences, Sophia and Michael provide listeners with an inspiring narrative of resilience, friendship, and the ongoing pursuit of authenticity both on and off the screen.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Urie [01:53]: "We were the first gay kiss on CBS. And it was a peck. Just a peck."

• Sophia Bush [09:06]: "It's nice to see masculinity that isn't trying to punch you in the face."

• Michael Urie [60:20]: "We wanted to create this opportunity for people to have opportunities... to represent all of them."

• Michael Urie [67:35]: "There's some adulting that I think is a real Work in progress... I'm still figuring out how do you be a man in this."

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Sophia and Michael’s conversation, highlighting their camaraderie, professional insights, and heartfelt discussions on representation and personal growth.

Transcript

[Sophia Bush]

This is an I Heart podcast. Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hi, Whip Smarties. Today we are joined by one of my favorite co stars, ever actor, producer, director and host Michael Urie, who you know from bringing stories to life on screen, on stage and behind the scenes, he was Everybody's favorite mark St. James on ABC's Ugly Betty. He's been on Modern Family, the Good Wife, the Good Fight, Younger workaholics, partners with me, and basically every incredible play on Broadway. I don't know, ever. Michael's currently starring in Apple TV's hit series Shrinking, for which he won a Critics Choice Award. He is absolutely one of the funniest people any of us knows, and he's bringing some of that old school humor back not only to the screen, but to the airwaves with his Ugly Betty co star, Becky Newton and their rewatch podcast, Still Ugly. And one of my very favorite things that Michael does in all of his spare time, jk, he has none, is he is the co founder of New York City's Pride plays, which celebrate and elevate LGBTQ voices in the theater. This year, he's taking the Pride plays to Washington D.C. for world pride. And I can't wait to talk to him today about life, love, motivation, lessons on screen and off, and how he manages to keep this incredibly impressive resume going. Let's dive in with Michael Urie.

[Michael Urie]

I was trying to remember. Is that right? We were the first gay kiss on cbs. And it was a peck. Just a peck.

[Sophia Bush]

It was a little smoochy. You were very cute.

[Michael Urie]

So cute. But what I was remembering is that.

[Sophia Bush]

Did you ever tell people you made out with Superman?

[Michael Urie]

We didn't really make out, but yes, I do. Okay, the answer, one, yes, Two, we didn't really make out. It was always just a peck. And it was never very romantic or sexy. But what I was thinking about as I walked over today was you and he had a sexy kiss.

[Sophia Bush]

That's right. That like David's nightmare.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Or was it your nightmare?

[Michael Urie]

Was it a nightmare? Or was it like. Oh, yeah, it was like a test. It was like, let's see if I feel anything. Oh, yeah, I don't feel anything. Let me just try one more time. And they kiss again. It was one of those.

[Sophia Bush]

Was it?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I thought it was like a hallucination.

[Michael Urie]

Maybe that was it. Now that you're saying that. Anyway. Anyway, I remember we need to rewatch our show also. That's our new. That's our next podcast.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay, great.

[Michael Urie]

But that's What I like, I remember. Oh yeah, they let, they let the like the beautiful straight characters. Well, they let the straight woman kiss a gay man.

[Sophia Bush]

Right? The hot gay man, but not the gay man's partner.

[Michael Urie]

We had to just peck. You guys had this like sexy, romantic, steamy kiss.

[Sophia Bush]

Woo. I remember because I got a Beyonce fan.

[Michael Urie]

Oh yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And my hair was supposed to be fabulous, but like more than once it blew into my mouth and I was like, so I'm just not her. I don't have the like. Yeah, I'm more like, you know, I'm a little more of a hobbit than a pop star. But here we are.

[Michael Urie]

Hobbit, hobbit, hobbit around a little bit, you know, hoppy, hoppy hobbit. We had good times though.

[Sophia Bush]

Happy Easter. We had the best.

[Michael Urie]

I was shooting on Warner Brothers and I still think about us all the time. Cause stage 19, I think is where we were. And it's right by the gym and I go there all the time and I always think about us to shoot.

[Sophia Bush]

A show on that lot. Warner Bros. Law, Universal Law. I'm still trying to manifest it again, the best.

[Michael Urie]

Every time I come out of a stage at Warner Brothers and you see those. Have you watched the studio, the new Apple show?

[Sophia Bush]

Not yet. It's on my list. Is it good?

[Michael Urie]

It's okay. It's like the craft is incredible.

[Sophia Bush]

Meaning how they shoot it?

[Michael Urie]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay. Wow.

[Michael Urie]

It's gorgeous. And like most. It feels like it's one shot.

[Sophia Bush]

Really?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. And it's so like fast paced. And there's dozens of extras everywhere and it's all on Warner Bros. So that you see the lot all the time and it's interesting. It's very cool.

[Sophia Bush]

Do you love. Is there really? I feel like there is as a viewer for me, a difference in the sort of level of creativity on an Apple show. Oh, and so doing shrinking, do you just sort of. Is it palpable for you?

[Michael Urie]

I mean, Bill Lawrence. Yes. The answer is yes. Like Bill Lawrence, my boss is so cool and he runs such a. It's like an asshole free zone. There's nobody with a chip anywhere. And he's a generous, fun, kind man. He comes on set and you know, he comes on set and it doesn't make everyone nervous. It makes everyone's shoulders drop when he comes on set. Cause we know like, oh, he's gonna, you know, whatever. Even if it's great, he's gonna make it better. Even if what we're doing is already great, he's gonna make it Better. And he's so busy. He has so many things going on. He's like doing 10 shows at once. He's so smart, and he's so smart, and he surrounds himself with the best people. They're people that have been with him for decades.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. You know, you always know when you meet somebody or work with somebody, and they've got the same people around them and have for a long time.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Michael Urie]

That. That's. That's, I think, a really good sign.

[Sophia Bush]

I've had this experience this year because, listen, I love what we do, and sometimes set is not a nice place to be, and we've all had the best and the worst of it.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And the revelation for me this year of working on a Shonda Rhimes set has been wild.

[Michael Urie]

Whoa.

[Sophia Bush]

Because they. It's this.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Everyone is happy to be there. Nobody has a chip. Nobody's checking the clock. Nobody's trying to get home early. But they do want to make sure people get home, like, in time to see their kids.

[Michael Urie]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, but the whole dynamic, and then you go, oh, I get why you guys have been doing this for 21 years. Like, the entire time I've been an actor, they've been making this one show of hers, and that's crazy. It's crazy.

[Michael Urie]

That show's been on for 21 years.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Michael Urie]

Wow.

[Sophia Bush]

I know. And it's lovely. It's a lovely place to go to work. And I think a lot of people.

[Michael Urie]

Have been there the whole time.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I mean, crew members, you know, started working when they were young, and now their kids are in college.

[Michael Urie]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sophia Bush]

It's crazy.

[Michael Urie]

Homes bought, mortgages paid. It's so. That's really. That's amazing.

[Sophia Bush]

It's really cool.

[Michael Urie]

It's cool. When the right person becomes a boss.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Michael Urie]

It's a really, like, wonderful, magical, special thing.

[Sophia Bush]

And I like knowing that you have that.

[Michael Urie]

Oh, yeah. I've got a great boss and everybody. It's a great crew. It's a great cast. Is amazing. The writing is amazing.

[Sophia Bush]

Writing is amazing. I just have the most fun watching you on the show.

[Michael Urie]

I mean, I love.

[Sophia Bush]

Obviously, you know, all I want to do is talk about feelings all the time. I sort of turn into the therapist at the corner of every party. So now that there's a show that's on about a therapist and his world, I'm just like, I've been waiting for this.

[Michael Urie]

It's also, like, I feel like this show and this is, you know, I mean, having done a Bunch of gay stuff.

[Sophia Bush]

No. Why? You know what I'm saying?

[Michael Urie]

In TV theater, you know, for like, you know, quite a while now, I will get recognized by queer people or the ladies who love them. And now lately it's been a lot of straight boys, straight men, because this show lets them talk about their feelings. And it's like, you know, it's pretty moving. Just last night somebody came up to me who I know, who I hadn't seen in a long time, and he said, I just have to tell you that we have a family member and this show has. We haven't, you know, like, there's been some tension and this show has brought us back together. Whoa. I know, I know. And it's like this. There's something about these straight. You know, it's a Harrison Ford thing. It's a Jason Siegel thing, a Bill Lawrence thing. Like, these guys have tapped into like a, like a masculine sensitivity. And it's, it's cool.

[Sophia Bush]

It strikes me the cool thing when we're in the obvious nightmare, you know, for women, queer people.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Most of us in the world of the manosphere that is so violent and toxic and scary. They've done this really cool thing with these men because they're dudes.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like Harrison Ford's the.

[Michael Urie]

He's the dude, the dutiest dude of all dudes.

[Sophia Bush]

And they're just, they're not so evolved that they're like, insufferable. They're not whatever anyone thinks like an evolved man is. They're just healthy men or men working on being healthy, figuring out how to be healthy. It's like, it's nice to see masculinity that isn't trying to punch you in the face.

[Michael Urie]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

But that's still allowed to be funny and flawed and heroic and he's allowed to be a good dad and all these things. And you're like, that's what I mean. That's like, it's nice.

[Michael Urie]

That's what's possible. That's what's possible. And for it to be from a guy who is a puncher and a guy who has done gross R rated comedies, you know, like, that these guys can now come around and evolve into. And Bill's been on this trajectory all along, you know, from the days of Spin City and Scrubs, he was on his way towards something that was like a more evolved bro y comedy. I think so. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Have you guys talked about that?

[Michael Urie]

No. No. But it's an interesting.

[Sophia Bush]

I should have a little coffee talk with Bill.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. Because he's like, yeah, I mean, I think he's been, I don't know, laying the seeds of better men. You know, men being better. Yeah, exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay, this is really interesting because.

[Michael Urie]

Have we started the podcast?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, I mean, I think we're just in it. We dove in. Normally, I like to ask the question I'm about to ask you, but I do think we've hit a full circle moment because you're kind of talking about how people evolve, especially as storytellers. And I'm always really curious when I sit down with people. Not just people who I've been lucky enough to know for a long time, but people who do what we all do. Like you're saying out in the street, people meet you where you are in your career, they know about you. They've now at this point probably seen you in a couple of shows, a bunch of plays. Who knows if you got to look back at your own life the way we're talking about. Even Bill as a storyteller and. And you got to like go for a little hang with yourself at 12 or 10, like in that little boy, would you see the adult you are today? Would you see a storyteller? Would you see the through line? Or would that kid be so wowed to meet Michael Urie, the adult?

[Michael Urie]

That's. Wow, what an interesting. I like to think that 10 year old, 12 year old me, if he watched TV, he would get a kick out of adult me, I think maybe. And I mean, certainly imagine what would he have done if he had seen Ugly Betty or gone to the theater and seen Spamalotta or something that I've been in that a kid would like. And I think about that a lot. And I also, I just was. They needed pictures of me as a kid for a scene on shrinking. And I was just going through some old pictures and there's a picture of me with my friends from Boy sc.

[Sophia Bush]

Did you have your little ankle tea bug?

[Michael Urie]

It was actually Cub Scouts. Cause I didn't make it to Boy Scouts because I couldn't handle the campouts. But not for me.

[Sophia Bush]

Thank you.

[Michael Urie]

Nope, thank you. I'll be back at my house. But it was a picture of me and four of us all. Hey, kids, come in. Let's get a picture. Arms around each other and they're all smiling and I'm making the goofiest, intentionally goofiest face you've ever seen. Like, and probably 11, 12 in that picture. And I was like, oh, yeah, I was a clown. Yeah, I was a clown. Then you were a little ham Yeah, I was a little ham. And so there is part of me that wants to go back and of course rewatching Ugly Betty, which is later but still very. A very young me.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Michael Urie]

And whenever I think I haven't figured anything out yet, now as a 44 year old, I think, I don't know anything. I haven't figured anything out yet. And then I look back and see that goofy kid making everyone laugh in the Cub Scout picture or Ugly Betty. I think, oh, I might be able to learn a thing or two from him. There was something about that confidence that I had then that has. I still have confidence and I still know what I'm capable of. But there's definitely. I miss him. I miss that kid that had never been told no. That whole thing.

[Sophia Bush]

I remember, I remember sort of realizing, looking back at the first year we were on the set doing One Tree Hill. I just turned 21, I remember saying, and I heard it when it came out of my mouth, reflecting on her going, well, I was just young enough not to know better. Meaning like I didn't know. I couldn't go, what the, you know, to my boss who was being inappropriate with a bunch of women at the time I did it. And people were like, what are you doing? And I just, I didn't know there were structures in place. And I love that I didn't, I love the, the unaware confidence, the, the ability to just lean into like what you feel, what you know, to be right.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I do think how lucky we are to be 40 somethings and to be evolved enough to have, you know, lived and grown and you can hold so many things to be true. And it's so great. And sometimes I just want the absolutely unconscious consc. Confidence of a 21 year old or a 12 year old.

[Michael Urie]

I know. I always feel like in my 20s I thought I knew everything. And then in my 30s I realized I didn't and it freaked me out. And now I know things. Like now I'm like, oh, I do know things. There's a lot I know and there's stuff I don't know and I'm okay with that. I'm pretty okay with that. I'm maybe not okay with that, but no, I'm okay with that.

[Sophia Bush]

It's like one of those boards you see people on on Instagram where they're wiggling like a personal seesaw. It's that, right?

[Michael Urie]

Exactly, exactly. But all my friends who are 30 think they're the oldest people in the world. That's really fascinating. And I Did, too. When I turned 30, that's the hardest.

[Sophia Bush]

I felt older at 30 than I felt at 40.

[Michael Urie]

Oh, 1,000%.

[Sophia Bush]

You feel very young now, which is weird.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Kind of nice.

[Michael Urie]

You look exactly the same, by the way. Listener.

[Sophia Bush]

I appreciate that.

[Michael Urie]

In case you haven't seen a picture of Sofia Bushleigh, she looks exactly the same.

[Sophia Bush]

Someone recently was like, really? What's the thing? And I said, I wish I could take credit for my lack of Sundance. I was just locked in a soundstage for the entire decade of my 20s. So when everyone else got sunburned, I was a vampire, which has worked great for me in my 40s. But at the time, I was like, I want to go on a vacation to Mexico. And I just never did.

[Michael Urie]

Nope, you're busy taking that flight back and forth.

[Sophia Bush]

Four flights a weekend.

[Michael Urie]

The four flights a weekend. Gosh.

[Sophia Bush]

Interesting to talk about our first jobs because we're doing the same thing right now, and we're watching our first.

[Michael Urie]

That's wild, right?

[Sophia Bush]

I have so many questions. Well, okay. They're all running through my head at rapid fire, and I'm like, which one do I pick? What is it like? Because you've talked about this a little bit, but I haven't spoken to you about this. How you see now how ahead of its time the show was, right? What do you see? What do you pick up on? How does it feel to watch it, you know, for the two of you?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, it's wild.

[Sophia Bush]

What are you realizing about this thing that you. That you made?

[Michael Urie]

First of all, so relieved and proud to know that something we made, you know, shot the pilot 19 years ago, something that we did all the way back then, was on the right side of history for the most part. I mean, there's a few things that are, you know, like, that are. It's one of those shows that, like, we went there with race stuff, we went there with queer stuff. And when something was, you know, when something was racism or transphobic or homophobic, that was. That was on the. That was. That was bad in the show. So even though we would. We would occasionally go there, it was bad, right? Like, if I was racist on the show, if my character was racist, he got his comeuppance by the end, and he was like that. So we were never doing it just for the sake of doing it. Whereas if you watch some shows, like, especially, like, the 90s, everything is gay, panic, horrible. Everything.

[Sophia Bush]

It's horrible.

[Michael Urie]

It's crazy.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like, are we okay? Were people okay?

[Michael Urie]

No.

[Sophia Bush]

What are you so scared of what.

[Michael Urie]

Are you so scared of? And why is this so funny? And also the funny racism. Like, there was that period where we were like, it was all just funny to be racist. And we was like, no, I'm not. I don't mean it. I'm being. You know, I'm just.

[Sophia Bush]

It's a joke.

[Michael Urie]

I'm being affable. You know, it's like, no, that's actually not funny. That's not funny. And we all thought it was okay to laugh at those things, I guess, so that it's a relief to rewatch Ugly Betty. And when those things do come up, they're not. They're bad. They're like, that's not a good thing.

[Sophia Bush]

They're observed as a bad thing.

[Michael Urie]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. What's interesting to me about that, though, is I think you have to take. It's almost like a math equation to me. You have to sort of analyze what was transformational at the time and how it had to be done.

[Michael Urie]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And the fact that there was a trans character on Ugly Betty was a very big.

[Michael Urie]

Was huge. Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

And the fact, by the way, that one of the most famous supermodels in the world played that trans character, actually, I think at the time, given where society was probably did more in that year for trans visibility than would have been done otherwise, because, let's be frank, a studio wouldn't have given a role to an actual trans woman on a show at the time.

[Michael Urie]

No.

[Sophia Bush]

And so I deal with this stuff, too, rewatching my own show where I'm like, God, I hate that we did it that way, but I'm glad that we opened the door so that other people could come in the door. Talk to Kevin McHale about this a lot with his character on Glee.

[Michael Urie]

Sure.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, and now he's like, I wish someone who actually was in a wheelchair had played my character.

[Michael Urie]

Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

However, his character changed the representation for disabled characters on television, and it showed.

[Michael Urie]

Disabled, young, disabled people who wanted to be actors, that there was a place for them that, like, I could do something.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. That you could even go out for a TV show in the first place.

[Michael Urie]

And maybe be on a hit show as a series regular. On Fox.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Michael Urie]

You know that. Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

On Fox, of all networks, by the way.

[Michael Urie]

Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

So major.

[Michael Urie]

I know.

[Sophia Bush]

So it's interesting to kind of have to look at the thing for what was good and what was bad and then divide it by the year it was on the tv yes.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. It's like a funny little equation.

[Sophia Bush]

A smart math person should make the actual equation for that. For us. It's not me, but I see it in my head.

[Michael Urie]

And, you know, when we would go into issues with. When we would have storylines about Alexis Mead on Ugly Betty, her father was not accepting, and he was a bad man, and he ended up dying. You know, like, that was like, that's love that. Yes. And played by a wonderful actor named Alan Dale, who was not a bad man, but the character was a bad man. And then her mother, Judith Light, complicated woman, character that played Alexis Claire Mead, she was a complicated character, but she loved her daughter, and she was good and she lived. You know, it's like that it was Judith Light, and it was Judith Light. So here we have gay icon, you know, who stood with AIDS patients before anyone else, and they bring her in to support her trans daughter. And that's like. So, you know, it was way ahead of its time. And it's so nice to watch it and not be cringy and a relief.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, we. We were on the cw. We have some cringe. There's some things that I go, oh, all right. But then I, you know, I also have the experience where sometimes I see us do something or have a conversation or do a storyline, and I'm like, damn. I actually get why this was such a big deal. And it's cool to get to become your own fan. I didn't have that when you were making the show, did you?

[Michael Urie]

Well, no, I was too busy learning because I'd never done anything, and so I would watch. This has come up a lot on our show. It's like, I remember a lot of my stuff, but I don't remember a lot of other people's stuff. And so now I'm becoming a fan of, like, the other actors on the show.

[Sophia Bush]

Wait a second. You're good at your job.

[Michael Urie]

I slept on you. But I was so focused on getting my own stuff right and then rewatching my scenes to learn because I didn't know anything about being on camera. And so I would watch and learn and be like, oh, I don't like that angle of me, or I need to pay more attention when the camera is there. I used to do this thing. This is so silly. You know how so. You know how? Well, like this. There's these two cameras on this when they'll do coverage. So there's the camera, say, over your scene partner's left shoulder, and then another scene or another setup that put the camera between Us on the other side. And I. For the first few seasons, or maybe the first season of Hooray Betty, I would cheat towards wherever the camera was. Like, I was on stage, you know, like, on stage, you cheat to the audience. And so I would see myself on tv, and I'd be like, none of this matches.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. You're like, why am I jumping around the room?

[Michael Urie]

It's so embarrassing. I was like, yes. I was like, why am I. My face is towards the camera no matter where it is. And now I know you just can't do that. You have to be real.

[Sophia Bush]

Right? Because the camera's gonna get you.

[Michael Urie]

The camera knows the camera's doing its job. You don't have to do it for. It's really. I know it's an interesting relationship with the camera. I'd be interested to hear what you think, because, like, you know, sometimes you think I want to forget the camera's there. I want to ignore the camera. And then sometimes you're like, oh, no, the camera. Harrison Ford, who is on shrinking. His relationship to the camera is more important than anything. He's always talking to the camera. He talks to the camera crew more than any of us. And he's so hyper. He knows that camera as good as anyone on the set.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I love that.

[Michael Urie]

And it's really. I learned so much watching the way that he deals with the camera. Oh, I love that because, like, on the one hand, you do. You want to pretend like it's not there, but you can't. It's there. It's important. You have to love the camera.

[Sophia Bush]

What I've really learned, and I hope to someday be as good at it as he is, you know, I'm not a person who necessarily understands what lens we're throwing up. I know if we're going wide or long, that's kind of it. What I have come to discover. And I do spend a lot of. I spend a lot of time with my camera crews, and I spend a lot of time with my props department. My favorite thing to figure out with my camera operators is the dance. And what I've learned is that if we choreograph really well together, it's not that I forget the camera's there. It's that the camera becomes my partner and the dance becomes something I don't even. It's muscle memory. What I'm thinking about, particularly, I have this movie that I shot last year, which was an adaptation of a book. So, you know, I was, like, really geeked about that.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, right.

[Sophia Bush]

And we. We Filmed in this really sort of. The house itself felt like a set. It was very austere and sterile and modern, and it.

[Michael Urie]

But a location. It was like a real location.

[Sophia Bush]

We were out in Utah. It really lent a certain quality to the movie. And the director, who we were working with, is a big Almar fan. And we watched all these sequences of things that he loved for the visuals. And there's a scene where you get to know the house, following my character into it as she comes home and she's doing these things. And so all the stuff where you put your bag and where you toss your keys and what you're doing, and I want to come in with flowers, because I do this every Tuesday, and I go to get a vase and. And we did all of these things. And the camera, it was this one shot that had to move all through, you know, driveway up the thing, into the front door, into the living room, which has art sculptures in it, and then around the dining table into the kitchen and all this stuff. And we had just gotten everyone's photos and all the childhood photos and family photos, you know, set. And I remember at one point, when we were figuring out what I was gonna be doing, where the things were gonna be going, saying to the director and the camera operator who's on the Steady Friends at home. It's like this giant. It almost looks like a Kevlar vest.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And it has this arm on it. And the camera floats around in the hands of the operator. And I looked up and I said, oh, if I'm doing this thing and then doing this thing, and do you want me to throw a glance to one of the photos so you can go off me and track across these? And then I can reach into frame to grab the vase and we can come back and go into the kitchen, and my. And my camera operator and my director look at each other and they go, don't you love a technical actor? And I was like, we're dancing, we're dancing, we're dancing. And it was this great way for us to think. And that's something I realized, I've learned in all the years since we were little babies on our first set.

[Michael Urie]

Right. Right.

[Sophia Bush]

Where then I feel like I'm in on it. And then I love being aware of.

[Michael Urie]

The camera you directed. Right?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. Yeah, I like it.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, I bet. I bet you're good at that. Oh, my gosh, that's such an interesting. Because that was something I learned. Like a motivated. You know, like, you help that. You help them tell the story. By looking. It's a very interesting. They used to say this thing on Ugly Betty. If they didn't know where to cut, they'd say, cut to America. Like, if they didn't know how to figure out what the story was, what's the story in this moment in the edit room, they'd say, well, cut to America. She'll tell the story. And there is something about that, like, central character, the one with the. The character with the problem, or the one who's trying to solve the problem. If it's a good actor, and she was a very, very good actor, you could always cut to her and she would have exactly the right emotion on her face to help tell the story.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, I love that.

[Michael Urie]

I know. Nothing feels better than when someone who's not an actor on a set says, you're helping me. That's just like such a. You know, when a writer says it or the director says it, it's just like. Cause because we know what we can do. We know our thing, but we don't always know their things. And it's the dance. It's really cool. It's a really exciting thing because I also think what's cool about being on a set is on a movie set or a TV set is people come from all walks of life to end up doing production. And. And maybe there's a few paths that people are chasing. People go to Hollywood to be an actor or a director, not necessarily to be an AD or a gaffer. They might want to be a dp, and they are working their way towards that. But they come from all walks of life and they. They focus specifically on their lane. And so there's all these experts. Everyone's kind of an expert, and it's really. Yeah, there's so much to learn, and everyone's so different. And so you really get difference in the theater. I guess in the theater, people are more alike. Everyone kind of, like, did plays in high school, and now maybe they're stage managers or they're lighting designers or the directors, but all kind of came from the same stuff. And that's also cool. That's also really fun. And certainly in a musical, you end up with musicians and dancers and things like that, but on a film set, you just never know where someone came from and how they ended up there.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. I mean, when you start, when you have your first meeting with a UPM or a line producer, and you're like, what do you do?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, yeah, I know.

[Sophia Bush]

You do the Excel spreadsheets. What. You know, and then there's someone who's just a purely creative, you know, the special effects makeup person. And you're like, like, it's so weird that you guys are great friends and you do this job together. But yeah, you're right. They don't speak the same language at all. Yeah, did. Because you obviously and Becky are so close and you do the rewatch show together. Still ugly, which I find to be hilarious. Hats off to you.

[Michael Urie]

Thank you.

[Sophia Bush]

How did you guys decide to come back to it, to do a podcast? And is it because you have just been such great friends that it felt like it made sense?

[Michael Urie]

Yes, it. It felt inevitable. We. We have remained friends all these years. We did. We've done lots of things outside of our time on Ugly Betty. When we did the show, they spun us off to a web series. We had a web series.

[Sophia Bush]

That's so crazy.

[Michael Urie]

And we had a podcast, actually. ABC came to us and they were like, in a first of its time, we are venturing into the soundscape and we would like to do a podcast. And they were like, what's a podcast? It's like 2018 or 2008. What's a podcast? There were some other shows that had podcasts, but it was like a marketing person would run it and they thought, well, maybe Becky and Michael would like to do it. And we did an episode for every episode and we interviewed the whole cast and we interviewed guest stars. Yeah, it was crazy. And it was on abc.com and we would do it on our lunch breaks. They would bring microphones to our dressing rooms and we would record this podcast. So it was kind of inevitable that we would eventually come back to it. But yes, we stayed friends all these years. We did. We did a cabaret act together. We did a musical once. We did how to Succeed in Business. We were trying together. We were supposed to do a pilot that got canned because of the pandemic. We were literally like, I had a parking spot at Warner Brothers. We were about to shoot this hilarious multi camera show where we played siblings. And then the pandemic happened and it got pushed out, which is totally understandable. And then when we saw people were doing rewatch podcasts, I was actually watching the Sopranos for the first time ever, which is the greatest show ever. Oh my God. I just created it. And there's two rewatch podcasts from cast members of that show. And so after a particularly amazing episode, I would go listen and I was like, this is really fun. We should be doing this. And of course, Zach Braff does Zach Braff. And Donald Faison have their scrubs rewatch podcast Real Friends. Yes. Which is so good. And I was a guest because Zach directs Shrinking. He's one of our directors on Shrinking, and he's brilliant. And their show, they got through all the episodes, and now it's just a show. Now it's just a podcast. And I was like, that is so. And it was so fun to be on, and I was just inspired. And so Becky and I had talked about it over the years, and then finally just made sense. And it's hard to schedule because we're both shooting. She's on Lincoln Lawyer for Netflix, and I'm shooting Shrinking, but. But it's really special and really fun to do, and we're getting to reconnect with our old friends and watch the show. And the other thing that we didn't expect when we did the first podcast was that people would send us questions. I'm sure this happens to you, too. Yeah. People would ask for advice. And so it became kind of. They would, like, somehow, for some reason, Becky and I, who were playing evil characters on the show, were somehow counselors in their heads to these fans of the show. And it still happens. We still, you know, this round of this podcast, we're still getting people who want advice and stuff. And obviously, we're not, like, experts, but Becky's really clever, and we give some advice and get some great advice, and it's very fun.

[Sophia Bush]

And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Sometimes I think, though, what people really want is they just want an opinion from a friend. And when you've played a character who feels like a friend to someone, you are in that character's psyche.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. That's very sweet.

[Sophia Bush]

And in a way, I did this recently. I did an episode of Chelsea Handler's podcast, and she takes callers. And I'm also like, look, I'm not. I don't have a degree, mental health degree. But I've certainly spent enough money in therapy to feel like I have some good thoughts after all these years. And sometimes I think it's nice to get advice not from necessarily an expert, just another human who's trying to figure.

[Michael Urie]

It out, or an actual friend. A friend in your head is sometimes easier. And sometimes when somebody just gets the information, face value. I heard somebody say, you want your friends to listen and your therapist to tell you what to do, and it's always the opposite.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. Yes.

[Michael Urie]

And so maybe there's something about the friend in your head that's in between.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. Do you think there's an added element of that, because shrinking centers around therapy. Like, do the interactions you have with people because of the context of the show feel like they've changed?

[Michael Urie]

Well, because my character is so funny. That's a very funny question, actually, because I meet a lot of therapists who watch the show now, and this. So my character on the show in the first season, he was this very, like, plucky, happy, go, lucky guy. And he had this mantra, everything goes my way. And I knew when I read the first episodes, I was like, okay, well, this is obviously a front. I mean, obviously, this isn't. You know, he's just saying this. This isn't true. He doesn't really believe all. I mean, he might believe it, but it can't be true. And I can tell already that eventually we're going to peel away the layers and find a real person underneath. It's not just like this. And then in the second season, and they did, and I had some amazing stuff in. And then the second season, even better stuff. And at one point in the second season, I'm in a fight with Jason Segel's character, and I'm making something about myself. And he was like, are you really so much of a narcissist that you can't see what's going on here? And I say, yes, Jimmy, that's what narcissism is. Having the courage to put yourself above others. And he's like, that's not what narcissism is. And I was like, that's such a funny joke. That's so great. Ga, ga, gah. And then occasionally people would say, this guy's bill would be like, we make sure we do this line, but also say something else. Say something that a narcissist would say in this moment. And I was like, oh, okay. Oh, interesting. And then I watched the second season, and I started to realize, oh, my gosh, my character is actually a narcissist. And then I met a therapist who watches the show, and she was like, I love this show, and I love your character. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And she goes, he's such a narcissist. Just, like, almost accusatory.

[Sophia Bush]

And you were like, huh?

[Michael Urie]

And then I was like, I've been playing a narcissist without realizing it. And I thought. I was like, this is. It was fascinating because, you know, a narcissist doesn't know they're. They don't know they're a narcissist. And you can't really tell them because they won't really hear it, and they'll just deflect it. I mean, honestly, just saying this out loud, maybe I am in real life a narcissist, and I would never know it. It's so weird. It's, like, really heady to think about. But this character, that's all anyone talks about on set. They're always talking about how he's a narcissist. I'm like, oh, my God. I've been playing this.

[Sophia Bush]

Is it making you feel Coo coo.

[Michael Urie]

A little bit. But also, I'm kind of proud of it. I've been doing it right.

[Sophia Bush]

That's really exciting. You're like, no, I really got in his head, actually.

[Michael Urie]

I was really doing it right. I'm so good at my job and not judging him. And it turns out it works. But that was something. In drama school, I learned we would play villains during Richard iii. And we're like, but this guy's terrible. And he says he's I supposed to play this. And they're like, you can't judge your characters. And so that was, like, one of those fundamental things that I learned. Don't judge your characters. Look at what you know, get inside of them and figure out why they do what they do and all that stuff.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. What makes them tick.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. Yeah. And the writing is so good on shrinking that I just play the role, you know, I just. I just see what's there, and I'm like, okay, this is what I think this is. And I'll be damned. I'm playing a narcissist all this time.

[Sophia Bush]

But here's what I'll tell you. And this is what I think is cool, because, not that you'll be shocked, I love to ask my therapist a million questions about how he does his job.

[Michael Urie]

Oh.

[Sophia Bush]

And he's like, you're paying me to ask me about. And I'm like, yeah, I have a question here. Because, you know, all the. All the articles now are about narcissism. And, you know, when you're trying to.

[Michael Urie]

I can't imagine why we're all talking about that.

[Sophia Bush]

I have no idea. When you're trying to sort of disentangle yourself from one. You do a lot of research saying this for a friend, obviously.

[Michael Urie]

Right, right, right.

[Sophia Bush]

Um, but I was like, how. How do people know and how do you deal with it and how you know, like, do, do. Is there never a question for someone who has this thing of, like, could it be me? Am I this? And my therapist goes, if you've ever Asked yourself, if you're a narcissist, you're not.

[Michael Urie]

Oh.

[Sophia Bush]

And I went, oh, right, That's. So he said, they would never.

[Michael Urie]

They would never.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, and it was this really funny thing. And so maybe that's part of it for you, is to realize, as you said, the writing is so good that you're the head of this person, and because you're figuring out what motivates his behavior, you are playing him as he's written. But even the fact that you're asking the question means, don't worry, you're okay. You're not too close to it.

[Michael Urie]

It's funny. That's so funny. It's very interesting. Have you ever. This is a. This is maybe a different podcast, but no.

[Sophia Bush]

Are we doing therapy now?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, kind of. There's that thing like a narcissist, when a narcissist rubs off on another person and they become kind of like anti narcissist, where instead of making everything about themselves, they assume nothing is about them.

[Sophia Bush]

Right. They become almost disembodied. Yes, yes.

[Michael Urie]

It's fascinating.

[Sophia Bush]

Interesting.

[Michael Urie]

It's this, like, consequence of being tied to a narcissist where your existence becomes protecting yourself from them at all costs. And it is actually like the. Like the opposite. And it's. It's still kind of narcissism, but it's like instead of it all being like, me, me, me, me, me, it's like, no one, no one, no one, you know, like, don't look at me, don't look at me, don't look at me.

[Sophia Bush]

Avoidant, avoidant, avoidant.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

[Sophia Bush]

And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. I mean, listen, it's. It's life stuff, right? Our. Our jobs are so cool and so crazy.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

How much fun to go to work and have everything be so funny. And you're dealing with humor in the lens of mental health, which I think is a dream. It's not lost on me that the person I know you to be has found this job in this moment. You know, that you are. You're gathering an audience in such a cool, positive way. You are modeling really healthy masculinity and people, you know, being human to each other. What. What does it sort of feel like to have this now? Because you have been an advocate for so long. You have stood up for the community, for. You have exemplified queer joy for so long in theater, in the pride plays, in your life, in your love, in your relationship, in your work. Like, and we are In a really weird time where so much of the progress we made feels like it's being so violently erased. Like how are you taking care of yourself? How are you holding onto your joy?

[Michael Urie]

It's so tiring, so exhausting. Yeah, well, I am heartened by people that back in the day, even when we were doing partners, there weren't many people who were out of the closet.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, especially not. Yeah, no, you're right. I was about to say especially not a lot of men, but really just not a lot of people.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, I mean, more women, but not a lot of people. And back then you still had to make a whole thing about it. Even when it was obvious that nobody was surprised when I came out. But you still kind of had to because they were asking. I mean, I remember one of my first ever red carpets for Ugly Betty. This guy, I wasn't talking about my sexuality yet. And this guy on a red carpet said, so are you out? And put a microphone to my face. And I was. So I did exactly that. I made exactly the face you just made. Like what? That question was so unfair.

[Sophia Bush]

It's just not.

[Michael Urie]

And I sort of hemmed and hawed and said, oh well, I don't talk about my sexuality. That was my line that day. And the guy printed his question and my response and he described my response. So it was in print. I don't remember what the publication was, but he wrote my response that I harrumphed, hemmed and hawed.

[Sophia Bush]

Guffawed perhaps.

[Michael Urie]

Yes. And then said I don't talk about my sexuality. Which is just like. And I know you've been there too. There's sometimes you get asked a question in an interview and you can tell they've already decided what they're going to write. It doesn't really matter what you say, they've already figured out what they're going to write, especially then and especially when it came to things like that. So like on the one hand, it's so nice to not be alone anymore and to know that there's this huge community of queer people in media. The GLAAD Awards was like, gosh, was that that came at the perfect time because we are being bombarded and especially, you know, since January of this year, like it's just non stop relentless. We all have to stay so on top of things and everybody, I mean everybody I know wanted to go on a news diet and did. Some of them went on a news fast and we just can't. You have to sort of keep up with things. And it's Relentless. But to go into a room like the GLAAD Awards that's filled to the brim with people who've done the work and live their truths, and not only that, but they are all. Everyone in that room is an advocate. That was very special, and that helped. That was one of those healing, wonderful moments. I've felt it in a few different events that I've been host of or emcee of. And there is a sense that you do have to acknowledge what's going on, on, but you also are allowed to. I think we are also allowed to put it aside and celebrate what is working. And that was the thing about the GLAAD Awards that I kept going back to when we did that. Like, yeah, yeah, there's a dumpster fire happening, and all of our stuff is in the dumpster. All of our belongings are in the dumpster.

[Sophia Bush]

Every single thing that's precious to us.

[Michael Urie]

Is in the dumpster. But there's also great work being done and, and constantly. And here's proof. Here's millions of awards with billions of nominees to prove that we've got a lot of great work happening and a lot of. We are moving the needle in so many ways.

[Sophia Bush]

I think that's what it is, though, when you said, it's just so exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting to have to put out the same fire over and over again. Like, we've done this. We've put it it out. Can we not keep lighting the fire? What is the point? Why are you trying to burn people?

[Michael Urie]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, and the, the. The sort of cognitive dissonance of it. They want to come for our community in such a way. And I'm like, the call is coming from inside the house, y' all.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, you go clean up your side of the street. We're set here.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, I, I cracked a joke about it recently where I was like, none of y' all, you know, none of y' all have ever had a problem if a woman like me is married to an adulterer or white collar criminal or, like, whatever. You have a problem if a woman like me wants to be married to another woman. Like, don't the girlies deserve the chance to be just as miserable as the rest of you?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, come on, you know, everybody's gonna pay their taxes. Unless you're a billionaire. Go criticize them.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

It's like the whole thing is just so cuckoo to me. But I think you're right. I think to be in a room where people are Celebrated for exactly who they are and exactly what they're doing with it, you know, and for what they're able to do despite the fire.

[Michael Urie]

Yes. Right. That's that part.

[Sophia Bush]

It's a really big deal. And it was also just the most fun to watch you crush and host. And, I mean, the split. The split Glinda and Elphaba outfit. Absolutely disturbed. Did you hear me scream? I didn't laugh. I screamed and I was like, shut up, Sophia. Do not distract him. He's on stage live. It was so.

[Michael Urie]

It was a good look.

[Sophia Bush]

All the moments were so Christian Siriano crushed.

[Michael Urie]

I've hosted enough now to know that fashion is your friend.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Michael Urie]

When you're hosting something, it does have to work for you, because we've all watched award shows where a host comes out looking normal and then bombs their jokes.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Michael Urie]

And if you come out looking great, that's your first joke. Joke in the bag. You look great. I don't need to get a laugh now. I look great. The work is done. So shout out to Christian Siriano, who designed that look, who made that thing.

[Sophia Bush]

Your carpet fit was Charles Harbison, one.

[Michael Urie]

Of my favorite humans. Wow. Shout out to Michael Fusco, my stylist, who I had seven looks that night.

[Sophia Bush]

You crushed.

[Michael Urie]

It was really fun.

[Sophia Bush]

I wanted all of them. I was like, where did that suit also come? Fringe. Give it to me.

[Michael Urie]

Oh, that one. It was so cute. And then. Oh, yeah. It was a really special night. And so many cool people. And also, you know, you've been at that venue before, backstage for other. I mean, I've been to lots of different award shows. The backstage is so tiny. The room is not big, and it can get tense and awkward back there. And, like, people not wanting to associate or not wanting. You know, it's like these people's people are keeping them away from these people's people. And like, that kind of thing that happens backstage. This weird, weird, creepy show. Busy things. Not at the Collatt Awards.

[Sophia Bush]

I know. It's a party.

[Michael Urie]

At the Collatt Awards. It was. And everyone was bigger because everyone's looks were bigger. So there was even less space and more skin and no tension backstage at all. I was back there the whole night. There was no tension. We were cramped. It was hot. But we loved it. We loved being there. Everyone loved being there and was, like, supporting. And I think it was because we all knew we'd done the work. Nobody was worried. There was no, like, stress. There was no, like, did I, did I? It was all, oh, we did. You Did. I did. We've all done the work.

[Sophia Bush]

Everyone did.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I love that.

[Michael Urie]

And now we can. We can, you know, we can handle this. And that's something to say. There's something like, I feel that way about really all the minority groups. Like, like everyone's. Everyone's had to deal with this already. So this new round of hate, it feels different. It definitely. This administration feels different than the previous administration or his first administration, I should say. But even then, we've been through this. We know hate. We face hate.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Michael Urie]

Even if it wasn't head on. We know what hate is meant for us. And we are already stronger for. We already have, like, the thick skins. They're the ones without the thick skins. I mean.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, well, I. I think especially because we've. We've been through this for so long. I mean, I think about, you know, 10 years ago, us being at, you know, pride marches. I think about growing up, going to them with my family. You know, we know the playbook now. And I think some of the sadness of these seeds they've sown, the lies have come home to roost. And it's like every accusation you make, especially about queer people, is actually you admitting something you've done that you want people to think we've done. Because what, your spiritual advisor is gonna go to prison for assaulting a 12 year old, right, Mr. President? Like, you were besties with Jeffrey Epstein. Like, bro.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

I hate to break it to you guys, but, like, the receipts are out, right? And it's not us. And it's why I love how viral that hashtag notadragqueen keeps going for years. Cause they're like, oh, look, another one. And it still has never been a drag queen. Guys. We're fun, y' all. Y' all. Y' all need to. You need to clean house on your end of the things. And we will just be at the GLAAD Awards.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Hosted by Michael Urie, hopefully for.

[Michael Urie]

And also, you think about, like, you really think that we're doing this because of you? You think that we are queer because of you? That this has anything to do with. Don't you realize that we.

[Sophia Bush]

They're narcissists.

[Michael Urie]

Well, that's. That's right, exactly. I mean, they think it's all about them. It's not about them. It's all about. This is our thing. This is about us. This is who we are. And this is. And we did this because we didn't have a choice.

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Michael Urie]

Because we are this.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, I think a lot of Them forget. And again, this is probably why they're trying to ban all the books, right? Like, the people who ban books are never on the right side of history, to be clear. But they're trying to ban all of the books because they don't want people to know that Pride started as a protest, right? That the fabulousness was born of struggle, that it was literally radical to be seen in public as you are. So our people chose to be seen in the best and biggest and brightest ways because they knew they could get killed for it, right? And if people don't know that.

[Michael Urie]

They.

[Sophia Bush]

Don'T understand how actually revolutionary it can be to be yourself.

[Michael Urie]

If they don't know that, and if they don't, like, do the work to learn that, then they just believe whatever someone tells them, and they say that it's bad.

[Sophia Bush]

And then they also parrot that no one cares who you're sleeping with. And it's like, well, y' all are the ones asking people live on camera on red.

[Michael Urie]

I know, I know.

[Sophia Bush]

I was trying to volunteer that information. You're asking.

[Michael Urie]

You made us say it. Hello. Somebody responded to a tweet of mine or an ex post of mine that they said something like, basically to the tune of don't rub it in your faces. You don't see straight people coming out and saying, I'm straight.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like, have you ever seen a movie?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. I'm also like, you.

[Sophia Bush]

Do you know what a rom com is?

[Michael Urie]

You're also disproving both of your points with this very message. You're asking me to be like you, and you're claiming your straightness.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Michael Urie]

So, yeah, I guess it's so weird.

[Sophia Bush]

When people really were bombarding me when I started dating my partner, and they were like, well, what are you? How do you identify. What is the word? And I was like, has no one paid attention to any of the beautiful women I have kissed on both film and television for the last 20 years? No one's been paying attention, you know, and then I loved that much of the lesbian Internet was like, we. We all knew you weren't just acting uneasy. I was like, thank you, ladies. Thank you for seeing me. This is always where I have been seen.

[Michael Urie]

They were happy to claim you. They were very happy to welcome you. Claim you.

[Sophia Bush]

So happy to officially be home, though it's been home for so long. When to be seen is so special. And I had, like, a very. You know, I get very emotional when people that I love are happy. And watching you win the Critics Choice Award, I was like, yeah. Just so amped for you.

[Michael Urie]

Thank you.

[Sophia Bush]

Was it because you love the show and because you love the material and, you know, the whole gang that puts it together and it's. It's the Critic's Choice. It's like, to me, it feels as cool as maybe sag. It really does feel like peers.

[Michael Urie]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

Was it. Was that a really special one to win?

[Michael Urie]

Yeah. An interest. That's an interesting comparison, because obviously the SAG Awards is voted on by actors, so that's a very satisfying nomination or win. But the critics. Critics choice. The critics, they're watching everything. Well, that's it. They see everything with the keenest eye.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Urie]

And to think that they watched what I did and said. We like that. I mean, obviously, obviously. Like, you know, we're all conditioned to think reviews don't matter. And. And it's. And it's. And of course, sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not. But, like, it is. It is part of the industry. I mean, it is. Any art will eventually be dissected and criticized good and good or bad. And so, like, it is a. It is part. It is part of the industry. We all have to accept it. Whether you read reviews or not. I don't actually read reviews.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, you're not trying to make yourself crazy, right?

[Michael Urie]

Well, yeah, because then you're like, oh, well, do I do what they want me to do, or do I do what they want me to do or do what I think I should do? But to know they're watching and smelling what I stepped in, that was really, really gratifying and super surprising. I mean, I didn't know. My publicist texted me that day, and she said, you just got nominated for a Critics Choice Award. And I was like, what? What? That's today. This is happening. I had no idea. And then we went, and my sister was my date. And before it was the night before, the Critics Choice posted some video of, you know, like, we're getting the room ready. And it was like quick cuts of the seats with the pictures of the actors, you know? Exactly. And I was one of them. And I was like, whoa. Alongside big stars. Like, it was like Angelina Jolie and Demi Moore and Michael Urie. And I was like, what is happening? And that was the first moment. I was like, whoa, I'm in. I'm in the video.

[Sophia Bush]

Hey.

[Michael Urie]

And then we sat down, and my sister was like, are you so nervous? And I was like, no, I'm not nervous. I'm not going to win. We're just Going to have a lovely night. I'm not going to win. And she's like, I think you might. And that was when I was like, whoa. Laura thinks I might. And she doesn't know anything.

[Sophia Bush]

If you think I might.

[Michael Urie]

If she thinks I might. That's the true yes. And it reminded me actually of another moment when my. Because it's so easy to talk yourself out of something. It's so, so easy. And when I was. When I was in community college, I went to a community college for a year out of high school because I had terrible grades, and I was sort of, like, going through a transition. I thought I wanted to be a drama teacher. And then I was like, maybe I'm good at acting. Maybe I could be an actor. And I was like, maybe now you're.

[Sophia Bush]

A Critics Choice winner.

[Michael Urie]

Yada, yada, yada. But then I had a teacher at this community college, urged me to audition for Juilliard. And I was like, okay, I'll do whatever you say. I'll do whatever you think, but I'm perfectly happy at my community college, and this is what I want to do, blah, blah, blah. And my parents were like, how are we going to pay for Juilliard? It's so expensive. We don't have that kind of money. And I was like, guys, I'm not going to get in. I'm just doing this because I think it'll be a good experience. And my mom goes, I think you might. And it was those two. I'll never forget. Those two moments were really, really. I talked myself out of a possibility both of those times, and my family kind of showed me. I mean, obviously, by the time they said my name at the Critics Choice Awards, the voting had been done, and there was nothing I could do. I mean, there's nothing you can really do. But it's certainly. When I auditioned for Juilliard with my mom's confidence, that helped. Helped. And my mom's not in the business. My mom doesn't know, but she watched me and she thought I was good. And she could see that other people were responding to me. And she knew. Somehow she knew. Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, it was cool. So, yeah, there's something about that. Obviously, all we do is in order to be seen. That's what we got into this. We wanted to make stories and have people look at them. But, um. And. And I know that people are seeing me, but to be seen is, like, sort of different. They, they, they. They're saying, I. I get it. I get what you're doing. And, and, and I like it. And that was, that was very gratifying.

[Sophia Bush]

That's so nice. It's such a nice validation.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, it feels like a healthy, a healthy version of that too. Do the, does the work you do with the pride. Do you also see it in that way as helping people be seen, as helping queer stories be seen?

[Michael Urie]

Totally.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, how did it come to fruition? And I sort of want the backstory so you can tell us about how it's growing this year.

[Michael Urie]

Yes, yes, thank you. Thanks for asking us. So basically, Doug Nevin, who is a wonderful theater, a man of the theater, he's a lawyer and a producer. He and I became really good friends. He, he was a producer of the solo play I did, Buyer and Seller, this play that I did for a long, long time where I played an actor working in Barbra Streisand's basement. Look it up, you'll love it. And we became really good friends because we were the same age and we just got along really, really well. And we would always talk about queer theater and the good and the bad. And obviously I do a lot of theater and a lot of queer theater and there's no lack of queer stories in the theater. It's a pretty queer medium. But what we kept noticing, I kept noticing specifically that it was me and the same couple of guys every time up for roles or we would follow each other. Jesse Tyler Ferguson didn't do this, so I did it. I didn't do this, so Jesse did it. And it kept. And I was like, I get why people think Jesse and I are alike, but we actually aren't alike.

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Michael Urie]

We're actually very, very different. And, and yet we keep getting, you know, even sometimes mistaken for each other. And I'm like, all right, well that's like, this is a problem we need to like. And I also know, because I also, like, my partner is an actor and I know lots of other queer actors. And there's this mid level issue which happens in, I think, all industries. But there's this thing where like, you can't get experience until you've had experience. And they won't give you a chance without experience. And so what, what Doug and I wanted to do was create this opportunity for people to have opportunities. And also we didn't like that queer stories were continuing to be told by straight people when there are. I mean, I don't have a black and white rule about this. I think that this is a fluid conversation about who can play what. But I do Think when a role or a story is inherently about the queerness, that to say a straight person is the best person for the job is silly. And that happens a lot when you know, like, you're like, well, can't we just hire the best person for the job? And it's like, yeah, you can and you will.

[Sophia Bush]

You.

[Michael Urie]

But like, who are you seeing?

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Michael Urie]

Who's your casting pool?

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Michael Urie]

Are you seeing all the straight. Are you seeing all the gay people before you see the straight people or as you see the straight people? Or are you, you know, is your life list a bunch of straight people that, you know, yada, yada, yada. So that was something that. And then Doug on his side of his side of the industry was we were, you know, like, as queer plays get submitted to theaters, they end up in the same pile. So you might have a play about a 40 something white cis gay man in the same pile as a story about a 20something black trans woman. And like those two plays, those two plays shouldn't be in the same category.

[Sophia Bush]

Right.

[Michael Urie]

Why are you putting them in the same category and then choosing one over the other other?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, it's like you wouldn't put a World War II movie and a rom com in the same pile.

[Michael Urie]

Thank you. Exactly. You know, exactly. And so that was. It's like, it's like gay is not a. Gay is not a category. Yes, gay is, you know, that's a, that's a kind of a part. Queer is a. So we wanted to create a festival where they could all. So we set out, we were like, let's do a festival. And it was. This was for World Pride when it was in New York in 2019. That's. We started and we thought, let's do four plays. And then we were like, wait a minute. There's a lot of different kinds of people in this community and we need to try to represent all of them. And it ended up being 19.

[Sophia Bush]

Wow.

[Michael Urie]

And I think we did a really good job. It was hard, but I think we really did tick all the boxes, so to speak, and reach out to as much of the community as we could and try to represent all of them. And so in the years since we did one on Zoom during the pandemic and we've done educational initiatives through the festivals. And this year World pride is in D.C. and we're going, we're going to D.C. for world pride. Pride plays will be in association with the Woolly Mammoth Theatre Company during World Pride. And we're going to do. I think we're going to do six play readings, and it should be great. It might be charged, it might be. There might be some. I don't know what it's gonna be. I mean, I honestly don't know what it's gonna be like. And things change so rapidly, especially in that town. But I've worked in that town a lot in the theater. I've done a lot of theater in that town. And it is one of my favorite places in the world to do theater because the audiences are so. They're so intelligent, but more than that, they're curious. They want to learn. And because their jobs are so intense, everyone in D.C. has such intense jobs. They really are able to put it away and come and focus on something new, as opposed to. Sometimes in New York, you get professional theater goers who see four shows a week. And so it's always. It's always work for them. And you can feel them say, what's different? What's new? In D.C. you can do, like, in New York, if you're gonna do, say, Hamlet, it's gotta be either definitive or brand new, some brand new version. And in dc, you can just throw Hamlet up and say, this is Hamlet.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. And it can just be very good.

[Michael Urie]

It can just be good. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't have to, like, reinvent Hamlet or. Or be the best Hamlet ever, which New York's.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, you've had seven times.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, exactly. And in New York, you try to do some old play and, you know, if you didn't completely reinvent it, then it's a failure, which is weird. But in D.C. you can do that, and the audience wants that. So I know the audience will be great for us in D.C. and. And I feel like it's gonna be great. That's my hunch.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm excited for you.

[Michael Urie]

You never know what. You never know.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Michael Urie]

It's gonna be a lot of queer people coming to dc.

[Sophia Bush]

You know what? Good. They need it.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, I think so. And I think we have an opportunity to, you know, change some minds.

[Sophia Bush]

And now for our sponsors. When you look at this sort of landscape of your life and, you know, your life with Ryan and your life in work and the. Your advocacy and your shows and the plays and all the things you have a lot. What feels like your work in progress right now.

[Michael Urie]

Right, right, right. The title.

[Sophia Bush]

The title. You knew it was coming and then you forgot.

[Michael Urie]

And then I forgot.

[Sophia Bush]

It's come full circle.

[Michael Urie]

There it is. It's probably. Actually, there's some adulting that I think is a real Work in progress. And that's something that I'm like when I talk to people who are younger than I am, there are lots more of them now that happens to us. Yeah. And when I see in their eyes that they're looking to me for some kind of insight or advice. I had somebody that I'm close with who's about 30 ask me to mention like actually asked me to mentor them. And I thought, oh, I can't. Yeah, I'm a two. Oh, I am old enough to be someone's mentor. So wrapping my head around that and trusting that I'm an adult and I can do that and I can like just off the cuff give insights and advice that aren't entirely my own experience. Because that's really hard thing, especially in our business, is all you really know is what happened to you. Yeah, we've been around and we've been able to observe things, but I can only really know what's happened to me. And your experience will definitely be different because we all have different experiences. No two actors are the same. But it's navigating that like the sort of the responsibility of being elder gay, of being, you know, like elder actor, being the oldest person in the room sometimes. And then also outside of show business, animals getting older and homes falling apart and mortgages and those kinds of adult things. Nieces and nephews that are coming of age and aren't just little squishy things that I can hand back now, they're okay. This is forever. These memories are forever now. And I want to be a good citizen to them. So I think the work in progress is actually being, I think in show business I'm way more at ease than I've ever been. And as a man, adult, I'm figuring it out still. I'm still figuring out how do you be a man in this? And also our world keeps changing. So I'm giving myself a little bit of, of slack, a little bit of grace. But yeah. What's it like to be a middle aged man?

[Sophia Bush]

That's a big question.

[Michael Urie]

Because 88 feels good. That feels like a good age to make it to. So that means this is the middle. I love when people who are, well, this is mean.

[Sophia Bush]

That means you have a whole other half.

[Michael Urie]

That's right.

[Sophia Bush]

And look at what you've done in the first half.

[Michael Urie]

That's right. Yeah, totally. And so much of the first half was spent as a kid.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Michael Urie]

Which doesn't really count.

[Sophia Bush]

Exactly.

[Michael Urie]

I was too squishy.

[Sophia Bush]

It's like you get double the adult time now.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah, I know. It's cool.

[Sophia Bush]

I love it.

[Michael Urie]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, I'm excited to do 44 more with you.

[Michael Urie]

Great. Let's go.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Michael Urie]

Let's see you on a beach when we're 88.

[Sophia Bush]

How fab. Just not giving a right. Well, I love you. Thank you for coming today.

[Michael Urie]

Thank you. It's so nice to be here.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm lucky for you.

[Michael Urie]

Thank you.

[Sophia Bush]

This is an I heart podcast.