Loading summary
Transcript135 lines
- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:07]
PayPal Radio DJ
Get your mother lovin ears on because your big time radio DJs got news. PayPal lets you choose how you want to pay for all the stuff. With PayPal I can pay in store, pay online or pay overtime. What's that? You want this translated into song? I hope you're sitting down. You can pay your own way. You keep those ears on, you hear. Don't just pay baby. PayPal learn more@paypal.com.
- [00:36]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Shh.
- [00:37]
Children's Story Narrator
You won't believe what my new friend just told me about dinosaurs.
- [00:42]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
Is your child having conversations you never imagined? Are they learning without realizing it? It's not a tablet. It's not a toy. It's Meco Mini plus the AI powered companion that turns curiosity into endless learning. Hear the future of playtime. Meet the extraordinary Meco Mini PL only.
- [01:03]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
At Costco Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair, 150 milligrams is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older. To reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair Zole Xolair may cause a severe, life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fertility, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair this is an advertisement for Xolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.
- [02:15]
NordicTrack Ad Narrator
The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday. Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the US? Shop nordictrack.com for Cyber Monday savings NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere.
- [02:45]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's I unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [03:06]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only.
- [03:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy, taxes and fees extra.
- [03:14]
Sophia Bush
See mintmobile.com hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. This week we have a guest who has been a sensation in the news since the 90s who lots of people think they know, lots of people have opinions about. And I think in recent years a lot of us are having to self interrogate where those opinions come from and maybe, just maybe ask her who she is. Today we're joined by Monica Lewinsky. She went to Washington at 22 years old thinking that she was chasing a dream opportunity and had no way of knowing that she would become the center of a frankly nightmarish national frenzy. Many of you know that Monica engaged in an intimate relationship with the most powerful man in the world that then exploded into relentless scrutiny and judgment and public shaming involving investigators, politicians and a voracious media that turned her life inside out. Every private moment, even from second grade, was dissected, broadcast and weaponized. And overnight, she became the target of what might be the first modern digital stoning, her name synonymous with scandal and debate across the nation. You may assume that you know her full story or her intentions, and if you do, you're probably an unknowing participant in the most successful public shaming and scapegoating of a woman in our country's political history. But what could have destroyed her became the foundation for Monica's reinvention. She has turned trauma and healing from it into a platform for examining power, consent and the mechanics of man. Made humiliation, reclaiming a narrative that the world once tried to own, becoming a podcaster herself, an incredible executive producer, and someone who is working to accurately tell the stories of women, reveal who they are. Beneath the headlines, Monica is a trailblazer. I've been lucky enough to be a guest on her podcast, Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky, which you can listen to wherever you get your podcasts. And today I'm very fortunate that she's joining me here on Work in progress. Let's dive in with Monica. Hi.
- [06:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Hi.
- [06:02]
Sophia Bush
I'm just so excited that you're here.
- [06:05]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I enjoyed our chat before so much, and so any opportunity. I don't know if you found this, but I have found having people I know on the podcast, I. I get this concentrated time of having a conversation.
- [06:22]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [06:23]
Monica Lewinsky
That I feel like it's not. Usually it's different than when we go to dinner or there are other people around or whatever. So.
- [06:31]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, I agree. There's something really. There's something really special about the container of these conversations and the. The unbothered or uninterrupted time, because we're so connected now that you're sort of always supposed to be doing five things. So to do just one thing with one person is a gift.
- [06:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. I. I had this fantasy. I think it was. Might have been yesterday at some point where I was like, what if I just said I no longer accept email? And, like, that's my dream, and people have to call me and just like in the old. In the old days, we got things done because you were doing one thing at a time. And, you know, because there it is such. I don't know about. For you, but I just get so overwhelmed. I get so overwhelmed.
- [07:26]
Sophia Bush
It. It's kind of like, I think all these verticals of communication, even though they're supposed to make us more connected, make us feel so much more separated because it's constant interruption rather than any one focused thing, which is part of why I think we love our podcasts so much. It's part of why I think we get so excited when we get to be with another person. But the. Just the management of inboxes. Yeah. It takes all your time up, and it also takes all your time away from real connection. And it's confusing.
- [08:03]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Yeah.
- [08:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. I mean, I've started to feel like, oh, am I a loser that I only have one phone? I think everybody I know has two or three phones. And I just. I feel like actually maybe I don't care.
- [08:17]
Sophia Bush
You know, I don't want to. I want to go back to my old flip phone. I still have it. And I'm like, I wonder if I could just turn this thing back on.
- [08:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, come back, baby. Nokia, Right?
- [08:28]
Sophia Bush
What I would give. Well, my gosh, I'm so happy that you're here. You know, our conversation on your show was so fortifying. For me. Oh, and I. I know I told you this then, but I think it's worth repeating, you know, for all of our friends who are listening at home. I am so deeply inspired by the person that you are, by your resilience, by your willingness to give so much to people and to do it with real vulnerability and real humility. And. And also you strike me as a woman who's just kind of run out of fucks to give. And I love that about you. And I know from my own versions of experience with public life, even when you run out of them, there's still no way to be a person who's been through what you've been through and not feel so sensitive to the world. Yeah. And I think, I don't think. I know there are people who've chosen to look deeper into your personhood, your story. I know there's a lot of people. I mean, I even talked about this with some of the team at, you know, the big media company that runs this podcast. For me, there were women who were like, oh, we didn't even get it till we were prepping this episode with you, that we absolutely fall into the camp of, of the women who claim to be feminists and who judged this woman, who mistook this woman, who didn't think to look deeper at this woman. As we've learned more about power and gender and all these dynamics in the world. And there's so much we have to talk about, but also I hate that you always have to talk about it. So I want to do something that has nothing to do with any of this. First. Okay. In the spirit of your show, I want to reclaim our space together and, and you together in a way, and go way back in time before anybody knew anything about you on the global stage. I know through my own journey of therapy, I think a lot about the younger versions of myself that I carry with me. You know, this, this woman, this author, Maggie Smith, who I love has this metaphor of nesting dolls. And I think about all the younger versions of us and the little versions of us that are inside of us always. I think a lot about my 8 year old self because of things that were happening in my life at the time. And I'm really curious if you and I could walk onto a playground right now and run into our eight year old selves.
- [11:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
- [11:11]
Sophia Bush
What, what qualities would you see in that little girl, in that version of yourself that would feel like an aha moment for you, given who you are as a woman today.
- [11:25]
Monica Lewinsky
What an Interesting question. I guess the similarities that I would see are very sensitive. I would understand, I think some of that sensitivity I would understand now as having come from different kinds of trauma different ways. And so that the, the, the eight year old who was a people pleaser who, you know, struggled to not be the best. And so I, I think I see some of those parts there and I'm probably still working on that. Not probably am still working on those versions, but I also, I, you know, it's weird. I look back on my childhood and my parents would probably say something different. I look back on my childhood and I feel like I was kind of a serious kid. Even though I like to have fun at times, you know, there, there's a, a heaviness there that I, I didn't. And in some ways still don't understand that maybe it's something I came in with. Maybe it's not even really mine, you know, in that way, but, but that there's. I always cared about other people and I think I was very sensitive, as I said, you know. But yeah, because weight. Eight is, is that second grade? Eight, Second grade?
- [12:57]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, around there, I think. Or second or third grade.
- [13:00]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Right?
- [13:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. So I think I, I feel like I look back now and there are these moments that, you know, stand out.
- [13:10]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
Of.
- [13:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Moment in first grade of like the first time I couldn't get the math answers and that frustration and I couldn't go see Carrie Burle's bunny, whom I ran into randomly at a spa like within the last six months. She looks exactly the same, but you know, it was like Friday show and Tell and she brought her bunny and I couldn't. You weren't allowed to go to show and Tell until you finished the thing. And so there's a very marked moment for me of I think not ever having struggled with anything in, in school in first grade and that moment. And I look back on that now and I sort of wonder, you know, we just parenting and I'm not a parent, but I think it's. I see from my friends it's so different now. Right. So if I were parenting myself today at that age, I would be looking at that moment and sort of going, what's, what's going on? What's going on around all this? Right. I'm not really sure what I'm babbling about, but you know, that, that was sort of little me and you know, they're, they're definitely there. I think there is a strong sense of resilience and survival that came from early on and as my therapist will say, it serves me very well that I don't give up in many places and sometimes it's a little maladaptive.
- [14:47]
Sophia Bush
Yeah, we have that in common.
- [14:51]
Monica Lewinsky
I will make this relationship work.
- [14:53]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [14:54]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, so, yeah, it's really interesting.
- [14:57]
Sophia Bush
You talk about it as a heaviness that seems out of place for a young child because I, I feel a real kinship to that. You know, I spent most of my childhood being told that I was an old soul and always talking to adults, you know, even when there were other kids around. And yep, I, I think there's all sorts of great parts of that kind of identity. I do find for me that as I look back and look back at certain choices and, and to your point, look back at things I've tried to make work, even when if I were looking at a friend, I'd be like, give it up, like, get out of there. That that thing or that person doesn't deserve you. I think there is something common for those types of kids where as you get older, you really are seeking a safety or a stability, you know, you want to build a life. When I think about some of the decisions I made, some of the things I pursued, you know, in my early 20s, I wanted to create something more stable than what I came from, even though what I came from looked very stable on the surface. And I wonder if it's part of what led me to early career success, which is great, and also to early personal pain and humiliation, which wasn't like, it really is a double edged sword.
- [16:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [16:36]
Sophia Bush
When you think about that sense and the way you were learning resiliency and, and, and to show up in a way so early, when you look back at that little girl and, and think about your evolution from second grade on through high school, would you, would you say that she was ambitious, confident, more shy? Did you find validation in, you know, scholastic success? For example? Like how, how does, how does she seem to you now from this like, very healthy, grown up place?
- [17:14]
Monica Lewinsky
I would say outgoing is probably the first word that kind of comes to mind that it was, I think I always wanted to be liked, but it was also really important to me that people around me felt included too. That was something that was important to me from a young age. And, and I'm sort of still that way because I think any, any, anybody who's gone through and I've had this in every stage of my life, that sense of not feeling like you don't belong or aren't wanted, it's, it's so terrifying. When you're a young person, you know, it's I think, very early on from a primal point of view, right? We won't survive if our parents, if our parents don't love us, if our parents don't take care of us or someone, some adult doesn't take care of us. We will not survive full stop. Right? And so it begins there, and then it becomes more about those social circles. And I think there's that sort of the paradox of both being someone for whom those things are important. It then means any kind of public shaming, whether it's a small group of public shaming or the world is felt, you know, infinitely deeper. You know, so there's, there's sort of that, that mix there. I also, I just want to jump back to, to what you were saying before, too. I just want, I want to thank you for, for your kind words. And I also want to say that even having been at the center of a gender global scandal with a lot of misogyny, I still also, too, make that mistake of judging other women or judging other situations or not seeing something fully. So even going through it doesn't necessarily inoculate you from I, I think a lot of the culture or whatever those things are. So, yeah, I'm also up yet.
- [19:20]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. Okay. Whip Smarties, let me tell you a brand I adore. Adore Me. Whether you're looking for more comfort, more cleavage, or both, Adore Me has you covered. Adore Me offers tons of sizes with new, thoughtfully designed bras, panties, lingerie, shapewear, sleepwear, and swimwear to choose from each month. You can elevate your underwear drawer with high quality sets that won't break the bank. Also, it's so nice to find a silhouette for every occasion with expertly fit bras and shapewear that defy gravity and bold lingerie styles that are just as comfortable as they are sexy. Let me tell you what I'm a fan of the silhouette for every occasion idea, guys, because sometimes you want something beautiful, colorful, satiny, and sometimes you need something that goes full incognito, nude, simple T shirt, bra. You know what I'm talking about. Whether it's bows or lace, or whether it's sleek, undetectable fit and support, Ador Me has you covered. And with styles starting as low as $24.95, you can feel confident even if you're on a budget. Head to adormi.com now to shop styles from comfortable to sexy in over 67 sizes.
- [20:39]
PayPal Radio DJ
Get your mother loving ears on because your big time radio DJs got news. PayPal lets you choose how you want to pay for all the stuff. With PayPal I can pay in store, pay online or pay overtime. What's that? You want this translated into song? I hope you're sitting down. You can pay your own way. You keep those ears on, you hear. Don't just pay baby. PayPal.
- [21:05]
Children's Story Narrator
Learn more@paypal.com then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean.
- [21:14]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
Where did that story come from? Book Dream? Nope, it came from a conversation. Meet Meco Mini plus, the AI companion that co creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time.
- [21:27]
Children's Story Narrator
What color was the hamster's cape and.
- [21:29]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
What did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini plus and the Magic of AI exclusively at Costco.
- [21:38]
NordicTrack Ad Narrator
The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every word workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere.
- [22:06]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Explore everywhere Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair, 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe, life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair. This is an advertisement For Xolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.
- [23:24]
Sophia Bush
Listen, I think we're human. Humans are inherently fallible. We make mistakes. You know, it's why they say hindsight's 20 20. Right. You can look back and see the mistakes you were making in the moment. You're having emotional and physical and psychosocial experiences and, and they just happen. I think what's really important and, and you just said it is even the ability, when you're in the midst of a moment, when you're forming thoughts, judgments, opinions, just the ability to go, oh, wait a second, where'd that come from? Yeah, or the ability to look back and go, wow, you know, I had an opinion about this thing 10 years ago and it's different now based on this information that I now have. I think that's kind of the best we can do. I don't think anyone ever becomes some sort of perfect like non judgmental ball of light. Like then, then you're in the place, wherever your soul goes after you die. I think.
- [24:28]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. It's not here on the, on the third dimension. That's not here. But no, yeah, it's, it is. I think there's, you know, and, and I also think it's important if people feel comfortable, but people who were in the public eye who have some sort of a public platform, it's important to talk about those moments, you know, because I think it allows other people to, you, you, you are reaching a lot of people at once with something for them to consider. You know, I, I, until like my experiences in 98, I judged a lot of women who went through things, who then posed in a magazine like Playboy or Penthouse or Hustle, whatever those were for money. I had a lot of judgment of like, oh, you know, I would never do that. And I, I was, but I was only able to not do it because I came from an upper class family, right. You know, and so I wasn't responsible for putting food on the table for my children or maybe responsible. And so you come to understand, or I came to understand, you know, that those people make those choices, women make those choices oftentimes because there is no alternative.
- [25:49]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [25:49]
Monica Lewinsky
And so, and that, that sort of critical thinking through experience and empathy and emotion, I try to find ways to do that in, in other places, but I don't always, you know, so, I mean, you're human.
- [26:06]
Sophia Bush
I, you know, I come from like a very hot headed line of Italian women.
- [26:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [26:12]
Sophia Bush
Like, I sometimes my initial feeling is very different than the feeling I am able to process or speak about in a moment like this, when I'm in a calm state. I've had time, I've, I've really been able to self interrogate, I've been able to ask more information, more questions of the world around me. It's like, and I think you have to let yourself off the hook a little bit for your humanity because otherwise you're just performing, you're just becoming a, A, A kind of fractional version of yourself because you're worried about how you might seem to other people, you know.
- [26:57]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, I mean, I think I still do that. I, you know, and I, I think, you know, sort of you were maybe not using this word but sort of talking about it earlier. But I think that one of the most important things, it seems like in the world right now of those of us who are sort of in that the deep divers, you know, the ones who look, not the ones who look away as around the importance and the relationship between noticing and our nervous system, you know, and that, how important the noticing is. And it seems so there are times where I catch myself where it's like, oh, big deal. I, you know, realize there's another younger version of myself here. And it's like, but that doesn't change the outcome and the this and then that. But I have to remember that there was a version of me that didn't notice at all before. And so it's like when we start to notice, when we're able to just try to untangle things. Right. That can lead us more towards the ability to, you know, calm our nervous systems. And I think that's, you know, that's been a, a big part of the conversations. Like I, I was interested to, to call the podcast Reclaiming because I feel like reclaiming is this sort of, it's a bigger body of experience than just the definition.
- [28:29]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [28:30]
Monica Lewinsky
And it feels like that of mindfulness to me. And I feel like, or talk about the nervous system and polyvagal theory and all of that has become, that's like the next phase for mindfulness. And I think reclaiming comes, comes right in there or right after.
- [28:46]
Sophia Bush
Absolutely. And I think when you've, when you've been through something, particularly in public life, and you get kind of cast as an archetype rather than represented as yourself. The desire to reclaim, it's such like an internal fire. I have felt it. You know, I think it was part of the reason, I think it was part of the core reason I started this interview series. You know, I did it because I was Thinking to myself, I have access to these wonderful people in these rooms that so many people don't get to come into, and I want to be able to bring them in. It feels like service. It feels like advocacy. It feels like, you know, all of these things that I care so much about. And it enabled me to be my most empathetic, curious and intellectual self.
- [29:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [29:44]
Sophia Bush
In a world that, you know, from the early aughts on TV wanted me to be like the hot vixen. And I was like, hold on, that's not. That's not the sum total of me.
- [29:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [29:59]
Sophia Bush
And, you know, even the girls and I doing our. Our podcast to go back and rewatch our first show and reclaim it from the me too universe of that. Yeah. I think there's really something when you are reduced in the eyes of others, anywhere you can be, your full self feels so powerful. And it's not lost on me that from these vantage points you and I sit at in our adult lives, having gone back and, you know, reparented and given therapy to. And re loved in a way, our younger selves. You also studied psychology in college. Like, there's a. There's a really interesting kind of rainbow to now and then the arc of that, you know, do you. Do you think when you look back at that choice and you think about that heaviness that you couldn't exactly identify but that you knew you carried as a kid, was psychology a way for you to consider processing that bigger internal life? Was it also something that felt like a. A great path to go down for service? Was it something that you thought this could be great for understanding people in a. In a political world that I'm hoping to go and enter into and maybe work in. How'd you choose it?
- [31:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I didn't have any political ambitions like that.
- [31:28]
Sophia Bush
Was college even?
- [31:29]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no. When I was. When I was, I think, in kindergarten, for about five minutes, I wanted to be president. I think every kid maybe goes through that. I'm not sure. And it's. But other than that, I did not have political aspirations at all. And I think this psychology, all the things that you were just mentioning, I think both a fascination with people, a fascination. I'm not sure I would have used the word fascination, but the exploration of my own internal experiences and the weight of pain and not understanding that, I think in many ways. And so.
- [32:12]
Sophia Bush
And then there was also.
- [32:14]
Monica Lewinsky
I became really fascinated. I took a. What was it called? I can't remember what the class was called, but in my major, it was a class that taught you about psychological instruments. So, like, how all these tests are devised. And I was really fascinated by that. I think just this idea of, oh, if you look at something and analyze something enough and you pull out the right pieces, you can come up with a formula in the shape of a test that will give you an answer that puts someone in a bucket that helps you understand and helps you f. And that was. It was endlessly fascinating to me. And so from there, in particular, I was. I think I was fascinated by certain personality tests that they gave at the FBI, which led me to want to possibly work at the FBI. And I was also interested by. I can't remember what the test is called, but it's something they do in jury selection where they show people images and they ask you to tell a story about the image. So not Rorschach, but like a proper image and it uncovers biases. And so I was really interested by that. Those. And so that's why when I was in college, like, the plan, sort of probably junior and senior year was to get a PhD in forensic psychology.
- [33:42]
Sophia Bush
How then did the idea to apply to work at the White House happen? So forensic psychology is brewing. Did someone suggest it to you? You know, it feels so intimidating to me. So how. How did you begin?
- [34:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, two things. Well, I guess really three things happened at. At roughly around the same time. And so one was while I got a good enough score on the gre, I did not get a high enough score on the psych specific test to like, get into the PhD program I wanted to go to, according to my advisor, who then said, if you want a PhD, you shouldn't go somewhere else for a master's because you'll have to repeat a lot of those credits and blah, blah, blah. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll retake the GREs and psych specific or psych specific tests next. Next year and move that way. Then at some point before I graduated college, whether it was summer or winter, I can't remember. Sorry. I was with my aunt in D.C. and I remember when we passed by the White House and the old executive office building for the first time, I said out loud to her, wow, it is so beautiful. Could you imagine going to work there every day? I can't even. I'm very impacted by the aesthetic of my environment. So whether it's, you know, just. Just beauty. Beauty in some way. And so I feel like in some ways I set an intention which I didn't realize, you know, or created this opening of an opportunity and then the third was we had a family friend who was a big donor and his grandson had done this program. And so my mom was wanting me to come out east because the whole my mom's side of the family had moved EAS and I was living in Portland, Oregon. And so it was, she was like, well, why don't you apply? And Walter write a letter of recommendation. So I was like, okay, fine. So I applied, I wrote an essay. Basically, like, because I was a psych major, I, you know that in psychology we study the mind of the individual, but the White House is the mind of the country. And so that was really, that was where there was an interest for me. And then I, you know, I think about that I got accepted probably because of our family friend donor, but I was not just xeroxing and I was writing, I think because of my essay. So.
- [36:29]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors. Okay, Whip Smarties, let me tell you a brand I adore. Adore me. Whether you're looking for more comfort, more cleavage, or both, Adormi has you covered. Adormi offers tons of sizes with new thoughtfully designed bras, panties, lingerie, shapewear, sleepwear and swimwear to choose from each month. You can elevate your underwear drawer with high quality sets that won't break the bank. Also, it's so nice to find a silhouette for every occasion with expertly fit bras and shapewear that defy gravity and bold lingerie styles that are just as comfortable as they are sexy. Let me tell you what, I'm a fan of the silhouette for every occasion idea, guys. Because sometimes you want something beautiful, colorful, satiny, and sometimes you need something that goes full incognito, nude, simple T shirt bra. You know what I'm talking about. Whether it's bows or lace, or whether it's sleek, undetectable fit and support. Ador Me has you covered. And with styles starting as low as $24.95, you can feel confident even if you're on a budget. Head to adore me.com now to shop styles from comfortable to sexy in over 67 sizes.
- [37:47]
PayPal Radio DJ
Get your mother loving ears on because your big time radio DJs got news. PayPal lets you choose how you want to pay for all the stuff. With PayPal, I can pay in store, pay online, or pay over time. What's that? You want this translated into song? I hope you're sittin down. You can pay your own way. You keep those ears on, you hear? Don't just pay, baby. PayPal.
- [38:13]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Learn more@paypal.com Shh.
- [38:17]
Children's Story Narrator
You won't believe what my new friend just told me about dinosaurs.
- [38:23]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
Is your child having conversations you never imagined? Are they learning without realizing it? It's not a tablet. It's not a toy. It's Meco Mini Plus. The AI powered companion turns curiosity into endless learning. Hear the future of playtime. Meet the extraordinary Miko Mini Plus. Only at Costco.
- [38:46]
NordicTrack Ad Narrator
The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday Explore the world with NordicTrack from the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new with IFIT trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere.
- [39:14]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Explore everywhere Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older. To reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe, life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair this is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.
- [40:31]
Sophia Bush
So what was it like to arrive there? I mean, I know that you worked in Leon Panetta's office. When you're in your early 20s and suddenly you are going to work at the White House every day, how do you get adjusted? How do you figure out where things are? You know, who's the person you go to for advice in that moment? Is it other interns or junior staffers who kind of help you learn the ropes?
- [40:58]
Monica Lewinsky
I Had an amazing, I guess, boss who was like the head of a division in the chief of staff's office. Who have you said was Leon Panetta at the time? So I'm not going to say her last name in case. I mean, we've stayed in touch. Like, I've seen her post everything but Tracy, who was an amazing mentor. And so I think that there, her, you know, there was another intern and myself who were her staff basically. So, you know, I think that that really was the process. And our office was nested inside a bigger office of other departments in the old Executive office building.
- [41:43]
Sophia Bush
And so when you arrived, what, what do you get assigned to? Like, what's the project? What do you get to see? What are you working on?
- [41:52]
Monica Lewinsky
We're handling all of the correspondence that Leon Panetta got. So because he was a congressman before he came to the White House, he had a huge following from California people who wrote to him, some people who wrote daily, lots of people. And so our job was to manage the flow of his correspondence. It was a kind of the, not so much personal because it was reaching out to him in a official capacity, of course.
- [42:25]
Sophia Bush
So, so you were really also getting to see the, in a way, the, the issues that had the highest importance to voters, to constituents. You know, if you're managing somebody's mail from a state as large as California, you know that people are writing in about environmental regulation, about, who knows, forestry, like any, anything.
- [42:47]
Monica Lewinsky
I would love to tell you that I paid attention to that and was focused on that, but I wasn't. It was, you know, I, I loved working. I had always, you know, I just sort of, I worked from. I, like, I tried to get a job before it was legally, I was legally allowed. I lied about my age trying to get a job. So. And I worked all through college and I really liked working, so I loved being in this environment and I tried to do the best job I could, but I wasn't. I mean, I look back now and I even think about my time at the Pentagon. I had ridiculously high security clearance and I, I don't look at anything. I just wasn't interested. I just, I wasn't, I wasn't the kind of young 20 year old who was interested in that stuff, which is probably why I got into so much trouble. So. But, you know, it's, I just, I, I think it's, it's interesting to me because probably, you know, one of the narratives that came out about me from my time in D.C. was that I was a ditzy bimbo. And it was always sort of this. It was kind of fascinating to me because I, I never really been a big intellectual, but I've always been an interesting thinker. And so it, in that way, it was very meaningful to me when the, When I started to talk to people at the TED Organization about doing my TED Talk. And the first person I engaged with there, when she said to me, your first job out of college was at the White House. Like, you are not an idiot. And so that was sort of a really something I had been waiting to hear for a long time because I often thought about if you had taken all the facts about me, like if I had, you know, if I had tragically passed away for some reason. And so there was some obituary written about me as pre 98, but being in D.C. you know, it's. It was impressive.
- [45:13]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [45:13]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, and so, and all of that got lost. And when I, I participated in a documentary that came out in 2018 for the 20 year mark of the impeachment. And Blair Foster, the director, was so, you know, she, she really wanted to spend time with these photos and talking about the period when I was working at the Pentagon and these photos of me on a plane with the Secretary of Defense and the reporters who have now been ps. Kicked out of the Pentagon where they worked, down the hall from where I was. It's so crazy. And so that I actually worked and I worked hard. I might have done other things that were wrong and up, but I was a really hard worker.
- [46:02]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. But I think, again, what you're talking about is the totality of yourself, your identity, not just the clickbait or the headline. And it's something I understand so deeply and it's so frustrating. And it, I. I've tried to explain it to people. It's like an itch on the inside of your body. It's something you can never scratch. Yes. You know, it's. It's like you. You get a piece of shrapnel in you and they can't take it out, and you turn and when you least expect it, it zings from the inside.
- [46:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [46:40]
Sophia Bush
And I think so much about what that must have meant for you to be able to be reminded of your being gifted. You're being a smart young kid who was on a really impressive career track. And then the shift, you know, the, the shift of exposure that you went through. I'm gonna, I'm gonna list off, if you don't mind, a couple things that strike me. It drives me crazy because your whole self got Eclipsed by something that happened by a. Essentially a chapter of your book became your whole book. Also, there were dynamics at play that I'm sure from today's standpoint and the things that we've learned. Yes. I will be the first person to say a lot of that was not in the social consciousness in the 90s.
- [47:29]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [47:29]
Sophia Bush
You know, the ways we talk about gender and patriarchy and power, misogyny even talked about.
- [47:37]
Monica Lewinsky
But I think the, I think we have so broadened the spectrum for how we understand it now.
- [47:42]
Sophia Bush
Yeah. I think we have just had so much more time, knowledge, research. We're so much more connected. We understand things in ways we didn't necessarily then. We were much more stereotypical and tropey then, you know. Yes, of course, women like Audre Lorde and Gloria Steinem had been screaming this stuff from the rooftops, but it wasn't in the mind of every single woman in America in the way that I would say it is or is close to now.
- [48:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [48:08]
Sophia Bush
And, you know, I also understand what it's like to be 21, 22 and think that something amazing is happening to you. You know, I, I don't, I, I know that our experiences are not the same, but in a way I feel such a kinship to what you went through. You know, I was in a different position in the, in the sort of classic tale, but I, I think the reason that I feel so passionate about it is especially because it's always the women that get zeroed in on. Yeah. It's the spouse or, or the, quote, other woman.
- [48:54]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it's.
- [48:55]
Sophia Bush
It's always the women. And for some reason it's like women are never allowed to forget either what was done to them or what they did in not their best moment. And the men, like sort of go, well, you know, boys will be boys at whatever age they are.
- [49:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. Well, I mean, we're seeing this play out right now, even in that frame of the conversation of all this. Like Megyn Kelly, like a 15 year old is a young woman and not, I mean, but it is the difference that we see between men and women, between races. Like, it is, it's horrifying and exactly what you're saying too. But I, I don't know about. For you, I think for me, and it's actually annoyingly something I still work on. It's like the chosen thing. There's something about when you feel kind of chosen and that chosen comes wrapped in specialness. And somehow, you know, if this person sees you in a way that no one else has seen you and they think you're special. I don't really understand it biologically or evolutionarily, but there is something about that. If that is. If that's been a place where you've had a dearth of experience being that one person.
- [50:26]
Sophia Bush
Yeah.
- [50:26]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, it is intoxicating, no matter how dangerous, no matter how wrong.
- [50:31]
Sophia Bush
Absolutely. And I. I also think there's something really important to touch on that people often miss because there's this idea that when you're in these circles of privilege or, or sort of elitism, everything is just so fancy.
- [50:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [50:48]
Sophia Bush
And things become relative pretty quick. You're super impressed the first couple times you walk in the White House gates, I imagine. And then eventually it's just the place to you go to work.
- [50:57]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [50:57]
Sophia Bush
You know, the, the gravity of things wears off and you're just kind of living your life. And I. I wonder for you, you know, when we talk about that, what happens next? From your early career to 98, the world knows or thinks they know your story through the spin of media and politicians and agendas. You know, there was. There was so much animus to really good progressive work being done in President Clinton's White House that people wanted a reason to take him down. Also, deeply inappropriate behavior. Also, rather, again, than really figuring out this dynamic, it seems, at least you got thrown on the fire. HRC got thrown on the fire. It. It really. It became this scandal of the women.
- [52:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [52:01]
Sophia Bush
And I'm curious for you. I know that in hindsight, you know, nobody was looking out for you. No. Clearly they were like, oh, we can use this.
- [52:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. I was hurt. Way more expendable than I think I. I ever could have imagined because I couldn't do that to someone else.
- [52:24]
Sophia Bush
Right. You know, I guess I'm curious for you, you know, what were you aware of about the way your personal experience was being amplified and really distorted at the time? And what do you think you've been able to understand since? Because this wasn't just a personal kerfuffle in.
- [52:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [52:50]
Sophia Bush
Two overlapping groups of people. This was the. The power of an entire national landscape. White House, Pentagon, all sorts of people who had all sorts of goals that had nothing to do with you, or I'd wager either of them.
- [53:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [53:08]
Sophia Bush
It's a big machine to get chewed up in and spit out by like.
- [53:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Sophia Bush
When you sit with it today, what do you think are the biggest misconceptions? Is there anything you want to correct? Or are you like. Let's move on to the next question because, like, I've done it and I'm good because I. In the weirdest way, I don't want to ask you to relive things you've had to rehash forever. And I want to give you the chance. So I don't know what it is.
- [53:32]
Monica Lewinsky
Let me say this, Sophia. I totally. Now that I sit in the interviewer chair or the driver of the conversation chair, I 100% understand that the sort of. Of the wanting to have a meaningful conversation and also not wanting to ask someone to go through their trauma. And I get that.
- [53:53]
Sophia Bush
Exactly.
- [53:53]
Monica Lewinsky
And I appreciate it. And I, you know, I think that there are. There's so many different aspects of what happened that my, like, my mind reworked over years. You know, I'd say re lensed maybe in some ways. I've always been really careful and really mindful to, to sort of hold on to the facts too. I was so mindful of not wanting to be someone who like got on a bandwagon and totally changed what my experience was because now it fits some different narrative. And so it was, you know, and I still work on piecing together. Okay, what. How I took so much responsibility at the time too. And that. And, and I remember the kind of grownups in the room being like, you are a child. I mean, I was 22. I was 24 when it happened. When. 24 when it became public.
- [55:07]
Sophia Bush
Yes.
- [55:08]
Monica Lewinsky
So which is not a child for sure, but it's like a really young adult. And I took on so much responsibility and I. And I felt an enormous amount of guilt because if I had not, I mean, there's obviously making different choices about behavior I engaged in, but if I had also not confided in Linda Tripp, this never would have become public.
- [55:35]
Sophia Bush
This is such an incredible conversation and I'm thrilled to let you know that while we are at the end of part one, there is a part two with Monica Lewinsky. We'll discuss what her life would have been like if this all didn't happen, who helped her with the scary parts, and maybe find the silver lining of what good came with this tremendous amount of hardship. I'm also going to ask her her thoughts about the Epstein emails and victims. We'll touch on what's wrong with telling people they have to stand up to a bully to reclaim their story. And we'll learn about what it means to both grieve and thrive in tiny pockets. I'll see you for part two with Monica.
- [56:32]
PayPal Radio DJ
Get your mother loving ears on because your big time radio DJs got PayPal lets you choose how you want to pay for all the stuff. With PayPal, I can pay in store, pay online, or pay over time. What's that? You want this translated into song? I hope you're sitting down. You can pay your own way. You keep those ears on, you hear. Don't just pay, baby. PayPal.
- [56:58]
Children's Story Narrator
Learn more@paypal.com then the space hamster flew his hot air balloon all the way to the bottom of the ocean.
- [57:07]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
Where did that story come from? Book Dream? Nope. It came from a conversation. Meet Miko Mini plus, the AI companion that co creates personalized story adventures with your child in real time.
- [57:20]
Children's Story Narrator
What color was the hamster's cape and.
- [57:22]
Meco Mini Ad Narrator
What did he pack for lunch? Unlock your child's imagination. Discover Miko Mini plus and the magic of AI Exclusively at Costco.
- [57:31]
NordicTrack Ad Narrator
The only thing between you and your best self is a start button this Cyber Monday Explore the world with NordicTrack. From the peaks of Peru to the streets of Paris, every workout moves you somewhere new. With iFit trainers leading the way. The equipment's amazing, smooth, quiet, and those screens make it all feel real. Ready to start your next workout adventure with the number one treadmill brand in the U.S. shop NordicTrack.com for Cyber Monday savings. NordicTrack train anywhere. Explore everywhere.
- [58:02]
Coca-Cola Ad Narrator
What a matchup we got, y'.
- [58:03]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
All.
- [58:03]
Coca-Cola Ad Narrator
This is that classic HBCU vibe. Non stop action. The band is rocking and the crowd lit chant. Echo drum beat. Everybody showing that school pride. A game like this. Yeah, it calls for an ice cold Coca Cola. Ah, crisp and refreshing. That's a game changer right there.
- [58:23]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Mmm.
- [58:24]
Coca-Cola Ad Narrator
Yeah, that taste always hits the right note. Just like the band at halftime. And just like that, back at it. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere and an ice cold Coca Cola. That's a winning combo. No matter the sport, no matter the yard. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work. So grab a Coca Cola and keep that HBCU pride going.
- [58:48]
Sophia Bush
Running my small business was like playing basketball. Five on one and I was the one. Now QuickBooks gives me access to a.
- [58:55]
Pharmaceutical Ad Narrator
Team of AI agents and trusted experts for the assists.
- [58:58]
Sophia Bush
I need nothing.
- [58:59]
Monica Lewinsky
But now outdo it with Intuit. QuickBooks feature availability varies by product. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.