Monica Lewinsky (1:59)

You should do that every afternoon.

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Sophia, Podcast Host (3:05)

Welcome back. Work in progress. Friends, we are here for part two of this incredible interview with Monica Lewinsky. Can I offer you something? And look, I might be wrong here. Maybe I'm projecting my own experience. I think when you're really in something and you're. The uniqueness of having a human life on a public stage cannot be overstated. And people want to roll their eyes and go, oh, poor you. Nobody gets how hard this is.

Monica Lewinsky (3:44)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (3:45)

Until they go through it. And I would wager that just like where you work becomes relative, going to the Pentagon becomes normal. Going to the White House becomes normal. There is a thing that happens when you are plucked out of your life and put in a new environment. Very similarly to my own early 20s experience. You move away from all your friends and family. You go to work on a TV show. You're working 15, 16, 17 hours a day with these people, just like you all were at the White House. You don't really know anyone. Your. Your relative experience shifts. Would you have confided in Linda Tripp if your three best friends were in D.C. with you?

Monica Lewinsky (4:24)

No, no, no.

Sophia, Podcast Host (4:26)

But in D.C. the relative scale of who seemed like a friend shifts to who you're picking out of in the pool of people around you.

Monica Lewinsky (4:36)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (4:36)

You know, I talk about this with my partner and her experiences very similarly. Being put on a team and then your team is. Is your option. For me, my cast, those are my people. For you, who you're working with there, those become your people. You're so far away from your actual life that you have to invest in where you are. And so I get why you would meet a friend.

Monica Lewinsky (5:00)

It's interesting because I did also confide in all my closest friends. It just was, you know, it just was different. It was different because they, you know, they weren't. I'm trying to remember I had a best friend in D.C. ashley, that I'm so close to. And I'm trying to remember when I told her. I can't remember. So. But I think that there was. It really. I'll say it a different way. I think that had I not been sent off to the Pentagon, which was a world. I mean, I joke about Being like Private Benjamin. I really was Private Benjamin. I mean, I went to Banana Republic to go shopping to go on my first trip to Bosnia. Like, what do I wear to meet the troops? I mean, like, I just was, I was a fish out of water there.

Sophia, Podcast Host (5:52)

Sure.

Monica Lewinsky (5:53)

Real fish out of water. And, you know, and I, I, I had some incredible experiences as a young person too. And yeah, even the, My, my boss. So I worked for the Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon, and I became friendly with his wife while I was working there. And I'm still friends with her to today. So I see her whenever I'm in D.C. and she's an amazing woman. And I think that there's. But I just, I didn't belong there, you know, I just really didn't. I didn't. And in fact, I was just talking about this. I think I had Laura Brown and Christina o' Neill on to talk about their book. Yeah, their book. And I was saying about how when I got fired from the White House that. Or transferred that my supervisor said to me, well, it's a much sexier job at the pen. I mean, like, can you imagine someone saying that in today's world?

Sophia, Podcast Host (6:52)

No.

Monica Lewinsky (6:53)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (6:53)

So cooler perhaps, right? More impressive. But yeah, even the idea that people would speak to a young woman that way and say, this is sexier for you.

Monica Lewinsky (7:02)

Yeah, gross.

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Sophia, Podcast Host (7:05)

Yeah, you know, it. I hear you doing a thing that I understand, and I want to clarify a few things. I deeply respect how much responsibility you've taken. I hear you saying, you know, I was a young woman. I was 22, then I was 24. I also in, in looking back, you know, my earlier reference, my reclamation show, I look at the girl I was. I was a girl, you know, at 21 and 22 and 23. We, we were still kids. Yes, we were young adults, but there is this odd obsession with when you know enough. And I think about the fact that your brain isn't even done developing.

Monica Lewinsky (7:50)

Exactly. You can't, you, you can't even rent a car by yourself.

Sophia, Podcast Host (7:53)

Exactly. So, you know, it drives me crazy that someone as you referenced, like a Megyn Kelly, could be excusing what we are seeing in all of these Epstein documents being released and, and say, well, 15's not really that young. It's not really that uncommon. You know, my question I wish I could ask her is, okay, so whose daughter do you think deserves to be rap 15? Megan? Yours or someone else's?

Monica Lewinsky (8:17)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (8:17)

You know, these are insane conversations we are having about children. And I do understand, reflecting on my own life and hearing you reflect on yours that you're really in this kind of in between phase in your early 20s. And it strikes me there are things you bring up and I watch your face and I see you kind of looking back at that hopeful young woman. And I, I don't think it's a naivete. I see almost a, a like youthful romanticism when you reflect on it. A sort of idealistic young woman who is succeeding and excited. I, you have like expectations about how things might turn out at the time before it blew up.

Monica Lewinsky (9:05)

Oh, I, Yes. I, I also think too just to, just to kind of round out what you're saying. I think what we don't, we have more examples of this now, but I don't think at the time, I don't think in the 90s and the early aughts we had examples of young women who are both, they are both very mature. Like you were saying, I was the same talking to adults. I could, you know, got along with anybody's parents. I had great manners, I knew how to have a conversation. So there are these ways that we are far more sophisticated than, than our peers. And then there are other parts of us that are far more immature, far more naive, far more I, you know, romantic or whatever that is. And, and we don't, we didn't at the time. And you know, it's the both, the both of those and. Right. And that's that young. You know, I remember this guy I knew who worked in this local supermarket and he said to me, he was like, you know, when you turn 21, you think you're such a grown up, you think you're such an adult and a few years later you're going to realize how little you knew.

Sophia, Podcast Host (10:25)

Yep.

Monica Lewinsky (10:25)

And it was 100% true. So when I was in my internship, I was, you know, studying. My plan was to go to graduate school. The next year was to make sure my scores were where they needed to be to, to get into a PhD program. So this was like, as I joked, a little pit stop on my resume.

Sophia, Podcast Host (10:44)

You know, like, oh, it just crushes me for you.

Monica Lewinsky (10:47)

I know, poor little Monica and her beret. So, you know, but, and I was still, I think something that opened up for me while I was at the White House was I became interested in communication. So that became a little more interesting to me. But I still was planning PhD forensic psychology, going back to school for that. And then whatever, my career was going to go in that path. But then there was this opening in legislative affairs when I interviewed for it My boss or the person who interviewed me who has done the same, one who transferred me with the sexy comment said, we can only give you the job if you commit to stay through the election, because we can't have people leaving to go. Everybody wants to go work on the campaign because it's exciting. And so I decided to give that commitment. And so had planned to sort of. I did apply to graduate school for that year.

Sophia, Podcast Host (11:49)

Right? You thought, oh, yeah, I can do essentially a gap year and be at the White House. That's great.

Monica Lewinsky (11:54)

Exactly. Exactly. So I think in the same way that I have a friend who also doesn't have children, who had also wanted kids, and she'll say that sometimes she has to remind herself that in her mind, her child would have been a perfect child. And so that when you're living in the fantasy of what you didn't have or the wish you'd had, that that's often the most perfected state of it and very unrealistic. So what my life might have looked like, you know, had this not all happened, is one version of a fantasy. My best friend from college always jokes with me. She's like, it always would have been hard for you to find a husband, even if 98 hadn't happened. You know?

Sophia, Podcast Host (12:37)

No, I, I, you know, I think that's part of it too. You know, you said something earlier about the, the kind of magic of feeling chosen in your young life. And I think I under. I understand that deeply because I've had to come to terms with, in my adulthood that not until I turned 40 did I realize, oh, I don't know that I've ever really chosen for myself. I think the most I've ever done has been presented with options, which is, these are the people who will choose you. Out of these, what do you choose?

Monica Lewinsky (13:10)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (13:10)

Like, that was the most profound, like, oh, look at me making some choices.

Monica Lewinsky (13:13)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (13:14)

Adulting, deconstruction of messaging, expectation, normativities, including heteronormativity, for me to go, what do I choose? And that was compounded in a really interesting way with a difficulty of, again, going through a very long private process that then when it became public. Right. The public perception was different.

Monica Lewinsky (13:41)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (13:41)

And I think part of what really drove me crazy is because in my 20s, when I had an experience on a public stage with infidelity with a junior, for some reason, it became my cross to bear and not, not, not the person. And by the way, I. I'm even nervous to say that because for some reason, even reflecting on it, I get Judged instead of being like, no, I actually have quite a mature understanding of what that was and I don't care anymore. It's been over 20 years. Like, get over it.

Monica Lewinsky (14:09)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (14:10)

But it was a weird way to, in a way, be confronted with an untrue accusation because it was juicy for the press and then to have press confirm they knew it wasn't true, but say, sorry, we got to run the story for the clicks.

Monica Lewinsky (14:26)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (14:27)

It was so infuriating to me. And I went, oh, the misogyny is still so alive. And I think part of the reason they love it is because they can be so much more misogynistic with women than they can be now with women who go through things with men. Like, this is. This is the frontier. That feels like 2003 for the media. Wow. And they know it's wrong and they don't care. Wow. It was this sort of mind blowing thing. And I think about it in some of the conversations I get to have with you, because I go, yeah, that's part of it. Right. People will know it's wrong, but you give them so much currency that they don't.

Monica Lewinsky (15:05)

I don't care. Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (15:07)

And I'm fascinated by this, you know, in. In my arc, something 20 years ago and something more recently to your arc, because you were basically patient zero of modern online shaming. And now we're having these very kind of elevated conversations as a society supposedly.

Monica Lewinsky (15:30)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (15:31)

Of age and power and consent.

Monica Lewinsky (15:33)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (15:35)

And it's a lot to grasp the size of misogyny, the size of the media profit industry.

Monica Lewinsky (15:42)

Yeah. And that women are not immune to misogyny either.

Sophia, Podcast Host (15:46)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (15:46)

As Phyllis Chesler wrote.

Sophia, Podcast Host (15:48)

So, so curious for you, the ways you've reflected on that with us. Like, it's.

Monica Lewinsky (15:53)

I struggle, you know, it's. It's something, you know, I think I'm. I don't know if you're this way, but I feel like a thought, an idea, a shift kind of comes in. And I know it like gets put. Put in a dish and is marinating. Like it's sitting inside. And every so often I go check on it and I'm like, huh, have we moved a bit? What's going on over here? You know, and. And so I have. I had this experience around watching John Proctor as the villain.

Sophia, Podcast Host (16:31)

I mean, that play.

Monica Lewinsky (16:33)

Oh, my God, so good. I am so glad it's being turned into a movie or TV show, whatever. I just. Because I want everybody to experience it. I had this realization that whether it was the case or I determined because I decided it was the case. Who knows? It doesn't matter. There is a level of anger I never allowed myself to get into, to talk publicly. And I see it with, I saw it in that play with a younger generation and I just thought, wow, wow, what would that feel like?

Sophia, Podcast Host (17:11)

You know, because God forbid when you're being shamed, you're supposed to take it. And God forbid a woman have so much agency that she'd be furious at the way she's been treated. And that's something I've marinated on a little bit, is like, oh, I've, I too have carried so much anger for the mistreatment from the world that, and is that the thing people want to poke at? You know, over 20 years of always wanting to ask women, right, Never asking anyone else like, oh, yeah, go like, oh. Is maybe the reason you still want to ask the question because you've never seen me get angry. And by the way, I don't know that you could handle my anger world. I don't know that you actually want a piece of that.

Monica Lewinsky (17:54)

I, for me, I think, you know, I think I'm not even in touch with it. I think it scares me. It's seeing glimpses of it there. And I, I, I had my, I had a SPECT scan done with Dr. Amen not, not long ago.

Sophia, Podcast Host (18:16)

Oh, I want to do that.

Monica Lewinsky (18:18)

I was I to do it a million years ago. And then when Miley came on and she was talking about it, I was like, oh, I'm going to do this now. But one of the things he was talking to me about, which I am 100,000 bajillion percent going to try, is a sort of rage therapy where you really dive into that rage and what does it mean to confront that. And so at some point I'm curious to do that and interested to do that.

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Monica Lewinsky (21:33)

You should do that every afternoon.

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Sophia, Podcast Host (22:16)

When you think about that, you know, that sort of righteous anger and I'm sure wounded anger and all the. All the versions of those feelings that we're not supposed to feel but we know live in us. Do you think if at that time, social media existed in the way it does today, it would have made things worse or. Or better? Because in one way, I. I wonder, would you have been able to be clearer about your own narrative? Right. Or would it just have been even more of the recycled garbage that the Internet feels like today?

Monica Lewinsky (22:55)

I think it would have been both. I think that there. There would have both existed more of an opportunity to have a fuller sense of who I was as a person. But as we all remember, with Justine Sacco, who, you know, made a joke to her small group of friends who understood her, her level of humor, no matter what that meant, not something for public consumption. Got on a plane, went to Africa, and landed with a very different life. You know, I could very easily see my humor the way I am also being taken out of context. But, yes, there would have been more than just my high school yearbook collage page to understand me as a Represent you.

Sophia, Podcast Host (23:40)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (23:40)

Or 20 hours of, you know, surreptitiously recorded phone calls that, you know, are gabbing to a friend. So these are sort of the materials. And then, of course, the spin, you know, that comes in. So. Yeah. And then who was it? Somebody reminded me even. It was like, oh, yeah, I wrote a poem about a pizza when I was in second grade. Even that surfaced. Like, I mean, it's. You know, that somehow. Somehow a poem I wrote about pizza in second grade is worth. Is worth putting in print, you know, but. So I think that there. There would have been more there, but then there would have been, you know, the beret and the dress and the. All the things would have had their own handles, and there would have been more, you know, memes and jokes. And so, yeah, I. But I also think, because I meet people a lot who sort of say, you know, I was always on your side. And it might have been nice to see some thing of that, because the only I could know was any sort of public support was if someone wrote me a letter, you know, the old fashioned way. So. But it was. I mean, and the letter, the mail I got, I would get Monica Lewinsky, Washington, D.C. and it would arrive to the Watergate. I. Mail with address to the White House, came to where I was living.

Sophia, Podcast Host (25:09)

It was. It made its way to you. Wow. You know, I think about that the. The attention and, you know, for example, the male. How did you handle. I mean, I'm so glad there were people who were writing kindly to you because the world was being so deeply unkind and not remembering that you were a human being who was helping you with the scary parts, because I know what it's like to get the threats and the God. And did you have anyone to support you through that part of the process as well?

Monica Lewinsky (25:43)

I think there was a few weeks in. I had to spend the first few weeks of the investigation without any psychological help because they weren't sure if I was going to get immunity or not. And so it's a whole long thing. But I eventually I had a. Ended up with a forensic psychiatrist who helped save my life a couple of times. It was amazing. Dr. Susan and then Judy Smith came on board, who works with Shonda Rhimes on Scandal. So she was sort of to help with the, with the pr, which, you know, it's like, yes, I grew up in LA and around the industry in some ways. I mean, my dad's a doctor and my mom was a mom or I don't know what, I don't know the phrase we use anymore. Just a mom. Stay at home, mom.

Sophia, Podcast Host (26:36)

Stay at home, mom.

Monica Lewinsky (26:37)

Stay at home, mom. Okay. Stay at home, mom. So. But I didn't know this world, you know, and so there was that. I. I was just with my best friend from college this past weekend, Catherine. And after she had to testify before the grand jury, we were. I was able to talk to her again. So I knew I had one friend in the world. Like, those pieces helped carry me through. And some drugs, you know, prescription drugs.

Sophia, Podcast Host (27:09)

Right. Antidepressants. Right.

Monica Lewinsky (27:11)

And some cupcakes and peanut M&MS.

Sophia, Podcast Host (27:13)

So I imagine that not only did you have to figure out how to process shame, how to eventually analyze anger, there must have been some pretty intense grieving for career, privacy, dreams, identity, the, the things that you had forward vision on for yourself that didn't get to materialize because of this explosion. When, in that process were you able to begin to find the light, like the moments to appreciate the aspects of your new reality? What, what good could also come with this tremendous amount of hardship?

Monica Lewinsky (28:02)

You know, I think that. I think that things happened in waves, right? So the first, you know, I was saying that I'm not really in touch with my anger. I think there have been moments where I obviously have. There were. There was a period of time, I think 10 years out, but that was the first time I expressed like, really recognized my anger because it was when I came out of graduate school and I couldn't get a job. And so that was a very rude awakening to me about, oh, this is how much I've lost. And I. I think the grieving has had to happen in tiny pockets as I've moved forward, because I've also had to try to rebuild and try to rebuild in a landscape that it's like, oh, we don't know that a new house can be built on this kind of ground. It was not a given, you know, Oh, a house existed here before, and therefore you can rebuild this house.

Sophia, Podcast Host (29:15)

Right. It's new territory.

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Monica Lewinsky (29:19)

Any. The fact that I've been able to move forward and build a life with meaning and purpose, you know, that's happened in the last 10, 11 years, I'm incredibly grateful for. But it was by no means a given, you know, and so I think there are a lot of other ways that this could have ended up, too.

Sophia, Podcast Host (29:43)

Right. Well, it strikes me that you've had to really excavate that ground yourself, and. And you probably had to start by hand, and that's something a lot of people didn't get.

Monica Lewinsky (29:54)

No. And I've had a lot of helpers, you know, and it's. You know, it's something that I really. I don't work enough at it. I think there are other people out in the world who probably do more, but it's. I am passionate about trying to find ways for people who don't have the resources to get help to get help and for people to really understand that getting help doesn't just mean services. It's how do you have the time off from work? How do you have the time to process? Like, you can't just go on your lunch break and talk about trauma and go back to lunch.

Sophia, Podcast Host (30:40)

No.

Monica Lewinsky (30:40)

And so that is, you know, that is the thing that not being able to get a job afforded me, that I was able to have this time to work on myself and heal and rise and. But that there are certain conditions that have to be present for that. And how do we. How do we help other people and how do we help people who have the resources understand that we live in a much better world when everybody is lifted from the heaviness of trauma, you know, and so that is where. That's where the world is better.

Sophia, Podcast Host (31:19)

Yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I mean, from the rooftops. I. It's the way the world can heal. And. And you're right. It requires time and it requires support. And I think when we try to rush it or we don't honor it. That's where things really spin out sideways. I think about that in terms of some of these amazing moves that you've made. Someone we have in common now is Amanda Knox. You know, she's come on the show. I've been an incredible fan of her books. And you helped her produce the. The scripted series, the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox for Hulu. And she, very similarly to you, was someone whose story was told for her. Her story was told with so many inaccuracies. I mean, I remember hearing about the. The sex games and the. And the throuple and the right, you know, intimate night gone wrong. And not only was was that not true, there was literally not one single shred of evidence that it ever happened. It was truly something the police made up because they thought it would paint her in a way that would guarantee a conviction.

Monica Lewinsky (32:40)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (32:41)

And to know that that happened to someone who. Who just so happened to be the first person home after her roommate was tragically murdered, to know that they had fingerprints and DNA and they didn't care, they still pointed at her. I mean, it's just. It's so egregious and. And similarly to you, and similarly to things I know I've experienced and so many women I know have experienced in the public eye, there was glee at her destruction, even though the destruction was based on a lie.

Monica Lewinsky (33:17)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (33:17)

How did the two of you connect? Were you someone that somebody out there connected her to and said, you. You have a lot to talk about. You could be a support system. Were you interested in telling her story and you met that way? Like, how. How did this stunning piece of television art that also is a reclamation. How did it happen?

Monica Lewinsky (33:44)

I think that. So Amanda and I first met. I think it was 2017. We were. She was doing her very first public talk, and I was speaking at this event the day before, and I think she had known Jon Ronson before. So I, you know, John Ronson had talked to her, talked to me about her a bit, and we connected. And I, you know, recognized a pain that I knew very well, you know, and in. In talking to her. And we stayed in touch over the years, and in 20, I guess it was, oh, my God, we've worked on this show for so long. It takes so long in 2021. So the fall of 2021, I was in a first look deal at 20th Television, and I read this interview that Amanda had given to the New York Times, and she was talking about wanting to make a movie of her memoir. So I thought oh, well, you know, what about a limited series? And went to my executive kind of got sign off there, went to Amanda, brought everybody together and we then together found our showrunner, KJ Steinberg, who has just done an exquisite job, I think, with the show. I mean, I am biased, but one of the things, you know, so in the micro sense, the show was important to me because I felt Amanda deserved to have this sort of relensing of her story and that reclamation on a macro sense. I was interested in exploring, even in myself, that question of why do I know Foxy Knoxy and still remember Foxy Noxy? And I don't know who the Rudy Good day is. And I did not know that they had found Meredith's murderer.

Sophia, Podcast Host (35:43)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (35:44)

And so that macro is so reflective of the culture. It's so reflective of what we have come to do to young women in the public eye.

Sophia, Podcast Host (35:55)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (35:55)

And it is. That piece of. It was interesting to me on a, you know.

Sophia, Podcast Host (36:03)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (36:03)

Psychosocial level and wanting to explore that. And we were really lucky. It was important to both Amanda and myself that Hulu and 20th and our producing partners, Littlefield Co. And K.J. sternberger, showrunner, were all supportive of this idea of showing the aftermath. It was really, really important because there are moments of the aftermath that are universal for people. I don't, you know, I don't know. I know your experience was different in ways, but I don't know if there was. There were moments that felt resonant to you there, but it just. That was really important to me.

Sophia, Podcast Host (36:48)

Yeah, it was incredibly resonant to me. And I think it's really interesting, you know, I. There were moments where I had to pause episodes like I had to take a break was so true and touched such a. A live wire of the trauma I work on that I needed space from it. And it's interesting to watch with, you know, some friends who were like, no, we have to finish and I'm going to. I need a break. Me as I am. I need a break because I'm so emotionally overwhelmed for her and it turns on all my own overwhelm in myself. And I think that is such a testament to the truth you were able to tell for her and with her because.

Monica Lewinsky (37:40)

Right. She was. She was an executive producer too. I think that it's. Was something I learned really working on Ryan Murphy's impeachment and that was around this idea of emotional truth. And so that there, you know, there. Whatever degree of verisimilitude an actor wants to bring to a. To a role. The thing that is really important is that emotional truth because that then taps into the broader experiences that other people have had when it's not the exact same details.

Sophia, Podcast Host (38:16)

Yeah, yeah. In a way, it allows you to tell a very specific story that resonates universally.

Monica Lewinsky (38:22)

Exactly. Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (38:24)

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Monica Lewinsky (40:07)

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Sophia, Podcast Host (41:25)

You can use a scream.

Ella McKay Movie Trailer Voice (41:26)

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Monica Lewinsky (41:33)

You should do that every afternoon.

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Sophia, Podcast Host (42:16)

In watching, particularly in the last few weeks, the truth of this trove of Jeffrey Epstein emails and files and all of it come to light, I think about the the truth for a lot of those women, for those survivors who've been telling us what happened to them for so long and who weren't believed and everybody, I would say most of us knew we trust people. We also trust the evidence and the photographs and the things that we've seen. What really strikes me right now is this incredible double standard of the way the White House was held to task in the 90s versus at current. And it's like my brain can't understand how our, our current president is one of the most mentioned people in this, in this trove. You know, the, the ruling finding him guilty of raping Eugene Carroll, the defamation, you know, the, the details that have come out about these 12 and 13 year old girl affidavits of these court cases who withdrew the case because one disappeared and one was so scared she was going to get killed. Like this is on a A level of depravity that is so extreme.

Monica Lewinsky (43:38)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (43:39)

And the spectrum of these abuses of power are breathtaking to me and heartbreaking to me. And I, on the one hand, I feel like women are going, well, you're finally looking at it in print. Do you believe us now? And on the other, when I think about my friends who've been through things, you included, I'm like, are you okay?

Monica Lewinsky (44:06)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (44:06)

Because this is the sort of thing that can be everywhere and really push on that, that bruise we carry. Are you having an I told you so moment? Are you, are, are you getting in touch with anger? Are like, how, how, how is this for you?

Monica Lewinsky (44:23)

I think what I find heartbreaking is that we have first, we as a society, whether, you know, sure, there may have been individuals of us who felt differently, or some, I didn't speak up, but some have in, in defense of the survivors. But we've, we failed these young women.

Sophia, Podcast Host (44:46)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (44:47)

As a society, we failed these young women. And I have felt for a while that all of this should be driven by the survivors. What do the survivors want? What is best for the survivors, according to them.

Sophia, Podcast Host (45:05)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (45:06)

And I, you know, I think that I, I, I don't care what side of the aisle someone is on. I don't care how revered they've been in history, how much they have done to help society. I, it is, it's one thing for there to have been people who flew on a plane not to the island and used that judgment and the degree to which they knew, which is we, we see that complication in stories like Weins. Sure. Where there's sort of the level of what someone knew, what they didn't know, making assumptions. But there is zero chance of anybody who went to that island who did not know what was going on.

Sophia, Podcast Host (45:55)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (45:55)

There's zero chance of people who spent an enormous amount of time in Jeffrey Epstein's presence to have not had a sense there was something darker happening there and seen around. And that's the part where, you know, you just think, okay, what do we do so this doesn't happen again? And also have to ask ourselves the question, where is this still happening now that we're not looking, we don't want to see.

Sophia, Podcast Host (46:26)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (46:27)

You know, my, my publicist was Virginia Giuffre's publicist. And so, you know, it is just, it's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking to think about what that young woman went through and what she carried.

Sophia, Podcast Host (46:46)

Totally. You know, and when I think about the, the level of public scrutiny, it's heartbreaking to me that that breaks some people. Further. Impressed by and protective of people like yourself who've managed to stay through it. Grateful that you've had the support in the moments you've needed it. Great. Grateful that I have too. You know, I'm really curious about the middle, the place of reclaiming, because in this Amanda Knox story in your podcast, even when I look at what these, these survivors of the Epstein world have been fighting for, it is to tell and reclaim their story. When you are part of a story that lives in the world with or without your consent.

Monica Lewinsky (47:43)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (47:44)

You can't really reclaim it unless you get to put your story in the world. Because when you're only talked about, but your voice is stolen from you, that's another. Yes, harm.

Monica Lewinsky (47:57)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sophia, Podcast Host (47:58)

And I think as a person who is still trying to figure out how to reclaim my total voice on certain subjects, watching you, becoming friends with you, watching what you and Amanda have done together for Amanda's story, I feel like you're really, you've. You've built your house on new terrain, but I feel like now you're building a road in a previously uncharted landscape for a lot of us to travel together. And I wonder.

Monica Lewinsky (48:33)

Thank you.

Sophia, Podcast Host (48:34)

Yeah. It's really profound. And, and I wonder what you think about trying. You are. And I wonder, you know, for some of, for some of these women or other people who deserve to have their stories told accurately, how. How do you feel about that now with a few retellings under your belt?

Monica Lewinsky (48:56)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (48:57)

You know, as a producer, as a creative, as, As a person who makes narrative story with the truth at the center.

Monica Lewinsky (49:04)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (49:05)

How do you think about how they, or we, or, or women around the world might heal from telling their stories?

Monica Lewinsky (49:11)

Right. I think, you know, one thing that I think is important to sort of put around a conversation like this is a little like a conversation we have in the anti bullying world around. I, I have a really hard time when people say you have to stand up to a bully.

Sophia, Podcast Host (49:32)

Okay.

Monica Lewinsky (49:33)

That's not true for everybody. Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (49:36)

And so part.

Monica Lewinsky (49:37)

And so that's where I feel like, I think, you know, and I, I've spoken privately to a number of people who've gone through public, public humiliations. Whether I think what they did was okay, not okay, whatever, I take my own personal judgment out of it because I know the pain of not wanting to be here anymore because of the weight of that humiliation. So I understand it. And, but people will say, well, you know, how did you reclaim your story? And it's like, it Is there is no three step process. There's no, there is no universal way that is works for each person. And it's. And so I, I want to make sure that people know you can do reclaiming in the way that works for you. Right. For many of us it is about vocalizing that story. You know, especially my, I had a professor at graduate school who had said to me, you know, that like my narrative had been constructed by powerful people and there is no competing narrative there. I had no narrative coming from me and that until there was a competing narrative, there was no other option.

Sophia, Podcast Host (51:01)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (51:01)

And so, you know, I wasn't ready to hear it when she first said it to me, but it's, it lodged in there somewhere and helped me. And so I think there are, you know, what it means. Like sometimes, even when we talk about reclaiming, sometimes replacing what you had and was lost or taken from you is the same as getting it back. It's like. And so that's, that's sort of part of it is that I, I don't, I think I've, I've had experiences and maybe I should be more specific. I've had a few experiences where sometimes people have said to me, I think I should write a book or I think I should do this and I should. And it's like, yes, you can do that, but be aware of the bigger circle. You know, you got into medical school, go to medical school, you know, it's. Or if you want to do this, it's fine, but make sure you're going to be okay. When the publishers, after the publishers have have sort of exacted their flesh from your story, like, what do you have after that? So is, is writing a book and going public, is that going to provide you? Because it's not a panacea in some of these instances, it may be a step that's farther down the road. That's my opinion, you know, from my experiences. And so I, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Sophia, Podcast Host (52:27)

Absolutely. I think there's so much wisdom in that. And, and I think, you know, the reality that wraps around all of this, that's true for every subject we've talked about is everything's really shades of gray. Yeah, it's a spectrum. There's no black and white. There's no right or wrong. There's no yes or no. It, it's, it's really a spectrum of lived experience and many things are true at the same time. And.

Monica Lewinsky (52:57)

Well, and I think that's, you know, in both the twisted tale of Amanda Knox I think KJ built the show, that the spine of the show is the anatomy of bias in understanding not just what happened, but how did this happen? And I think in the podcast, the kind of conversations I'm wanting to have are, you know, I mean, I hope you felt that way from our chat. I was so grateful you came on. And it's like, I want to know all the things, you know, it's all the shades that are in there and what. Because I think that's, that's where I think you could be helping other people. And like, I'm very. I think you're the same. I'm not prescriptive on my podcast at all. And it's like I want the listener to find what they need in the conversation because I trust that people are wise enough. Prescriptive is great and there are plenty of people who do prescriptive. And it's really helpful to, to people. It can be really helpful to me at times. But I also think there's something to navigating what you're feeling, what you're hearing. What's it, what's coming up for you? What are you thinking about differently that you hadn't thought about before? And you can only do that in the soup of context.

Sophia, Podcast Host (54:13)

Totally. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Okay, Whip Smarties, Let me tell you a brand I adore. Adore Me. Whether you're looking for more comfort, more cleavage, or both, Adormi has you covered. Adormi offers tons of sizes with new, thoughtfully designed bras, panties, lingerie, shapewear, sleepwear, and swimwear to choose from each month. You can elevate your underwear drawer with high quality sets that won't break the bank. Also, it's so nice to find a silhouette for every occasion with expertly fit bras and shapewear that defy gravity and bold lingerie styles that are just as comfortable as they are sexy. Let me tell you what I'm a fan of the silhouette for every occasion idea, guys. Because sometimes you want something beautiful, colorful, satiny, and sometimes you need something that goes full incognito nude, simple T shirt bra. You know what I'm talking about. Whether it's bows or lace, or whether it's sleek, undetectable fit and support, Ador Me has you covered. And with styles starting as low as $24.95, you can feel confident even if you're on a budget. Head to adore me.com now to shop styles from comfortable to Sexy in over 67 sizes.

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Ella McKay Movie Trailer Voice (57:00)

Ella McKay coming to theaters December 12th.

Sophia, Podcast Host (57:03)

Your father's here.

Monica Lewinsky (57:04)

Why?

Ella McKay Movie Trailer Voice (57:04)

A heartwarming new comedy from James.

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Ella McKay Movie Trailer Voice (57:13)

It's a perfect holiday comedy about an imperfect family.

Sophia, Podcast Host (57:16)

You can use a scream.

Ella McKay Movie Trailer Voice (57:18)

Ella Starring Emma Mackey, Jamie Lee Curtis, Kamel Nanjiani, I.A. debery. With Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson.

Monica Lewinsky (57:25)

You should do that every afternoon.

Ella McKay Movie Trailer Voice (57:27)

Ella McKay rated PG 13. Get tickets now.

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Sophia, Podcast Host (58:07)

When you think about the podcast in particular, because you do, you give so many people space to reclaim narratives. You get to bring your full self into every conversation, and so everyone who listens gets to know you better, too. What do you think is the most meaningful part of. Of your own reclamation in that interview series?

Monica Lewinsky (58:31)

I think it's a great question, and I need to think about it for a second. I would say. I think it's. It's. It's. It's funny because I guess what's coming up for me is very typical me. It's like, okay, what can I be doing for someone else? Which is not always a good thing. So it may seem, Whatever. But for me, it's been very meaningful that people who've come on the show have told me they felt safe, that people who listen to the show have said, oh, I feel like I saw or heard a different side to this person that I didn't realize or didn't know. I've heard from one, a young woman who was in the associate producer on the Amanda Knox show who was like, I don't know how you do it, but when I finish listening to an episode, I feel less alone. Like, I mean, what bigger gift could you get? Or, you know, the lady who made my smoothie when I got a $10 million smoothie at Erewhon, you know who. And my. My name is on the thing because of my. My points there, and she's like, I love your podcast. You know, so just those moments of connection, like, that all feels. I think it feels like part of my reclaiming because it's purpose, and it fills. It fills me in a very deep way. I love that. Yeah. So it's. It's a lot. I mean, as you know, it's so much more work than I ever could have imagined ever, you know, And. And I want to protect people and, you know.

Sophia, Podcast Host (60:12)

Yeah, absolutely. And. And. And I think one of the things I've learned from it is I don't have to ask every question that everyone out there might want me to. Yeah, I don't have to do that. I think we. We really can shift away from some of what feels typical and sad, and that's really nice.

Monica Lewinsky (60:39)

Yeah, I think it's trying to be. I actually, I learned this from Tarana Burke when she came on and she. She talked so much about how important it is to not ask survivors to. Or to expect that a survivor is going to tell their story.

Sophia, Podcast Host (60:58)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (60:59)

That, you know, we can. And I've heard you do this on your podcast, too, so it's you know, in your conversations, which is creating a space. If someone wants to, they can. But also that. That option of. I can summarize for the audience so they know what happened. That it's just we're not like playing in the sandbox of trauma porn.

Sophia, Podcast Host (61:18)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (61:18)

You know, I think that that's really important.

Sophia, Podcast Host (61:21)

And I think, especially when you've been through it, we're so much more than the worst things that have ever happened to us. And when that's all anyone wants to talk to you about, it's like, really?

Monica Lewinsky (61:34)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (61:35)

To your point, you look, you look at this whole resume and it's this.

Monica Lewinsky (61:38)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (61:39)

Like, let. Let me be a human, not a. Not a topic.

Monica Lewinsky (61:43)

Right.

Sophia, Podcast Host (61:44)

And I think there's something really special about those of us who want to not just have a great conversation, but take care of our people.

Monica Lewinsky (61:56)

Yeah.

Sophia, Podcast Host (61:57)

Taking up more space in this arena. Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (61:59)

I mean, it's why. One of the reasons I admire. I know one of your favorite guests that I'm like, maybe one day, but Michelle Obama is just. I mean, she's just such an extraordinary woman and one of those people that in decades, hundreds of years from now, if we're still exist on the planet, there will be people saying, imagine being alive at the same time she was. Yes. Imagine being in the world. I haven't met her, but I know a lot of people who know her. And I just obviously, as a person, I see what she puts into the world. And it is. Yeah, it's extraordinary.

Sophia, Podcast Host (62:39)

So special when you, when you sit at this vantage point, you know, looking out at all this incredible work that you've done and the work you're still doing, you know, things you're developing the self. You're still developing what feels like your work in progress right now.

Monica Lewinsky (62:57)

Oh, my God, there's so much. And it's so funny. I love, I love the title of your podcast so much because there's that Latin phrase which I always say, wrong mute, mutatis mutandis. I think it is, that's like, used in legal things with changes still being made. And I've often joked that that's going to be on my tombstone.

Sophia, Podcast Host (63:17)

So, you know, I love that.

Monica Lewinsky (63:20)

But I, you know, I think professionally I'm really excited about continuing to. To grow the podcast and grow the conversations I'm having, I think in that way, developing entertainment in that space that moves conversations forward in. In whatever lane or topic that might be.

Sophia, Podcast Host (63:47)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (63:48)

And I think that the. I mean, my personal. I'm like, like working on every. I had a really tough day yesterday and just you know the like sitting in the tears and sitting in the numbness and, and just kind of going okay, this is, this is where I am today, you know. And my world reflected it. I came home from being away for a couple days to a leak and then driving in the car that night I hit something and my side view mirror broke off, you know and it was just like, like okay. Sometimes like you just get in a hot bath and you cry and it's okay, you know, okay. It's okay. And so all the things, you know, all the things. This has been so lovely, Sophia.

Sophia, Podcast Host (64:32)

The best. Thank you so much.

Monica Lewinsky (64:34)

We will, we will make a plan for soon.

Sophia, Podcast Host (64:37)

Yes, I would love nothing more.

PayPal Radio DJ (64:57)

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NordicTrack Advertiser (65:23)

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Sophia, Podcast Host (65:56)

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Monica Lewinsky (66:25)

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