Work in Progress: Rory Uphold

Summary

Podcast Summary

Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

Episode: Rory Uphold
Air Date: December 22, 2025
Guest: Rory Uphold, writer, podcaster, and author of A Final Girl’s Guide to the Horrors of Dating

---

Overview

This episode of Work in Progress features a candid, energetic, and deeply vulnerable conversation between host Sophia Bush and her longtime friend, Rory Uphold. The two discuss Rory’s bestselling book, A Final Girl’s Guide to the Horrors of Dating, using horror movie metaphors to dissect modern love, societal expectations, shame, resilience, and personal growth. With humor and raw honesty, they trace Rory's journey and unravel the complicated intersections of romance, gender, and self-worth.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Final Girl Metaphor & Its Power

Timestamps: 05:20–16:46

• The concept of the "final girl" (the lone survivor in horror films) and how Rory uses it as a framework for women navigating modern dating.

• Rory explains the pervasive horror metaphors we use to describe dating—ghosting, zombies, memento mori, etc.—and how they connect to real relationship experiences.

• Insight: Societal language links love and death, shaping our expectations and internal scripts about relationships.

  • Quote:
    “There’s this weird intertwined relationship between love and death in the way that we speak about it… Ghosting, orbiting, zombie—all of that came into the forefront. Bed, death.”
    (Rory, 13:19)

• The final girl trope demonstrates audience discomfort with vulnerable men, highlighting underlying gender dynamics in both films and real-life relationships.

---

2. Childhood, Resilience, and Loss of Innocence

Timestamps: 06:34–11:37

• Sophia and Rory reminisce about childhood innocence and the inevitable buildup of trauma and caution in adulthood.

  • Quote:
    “There was, like, a sparkle and a joy and an innocence that I had back then that I don't have anymore... But I think sometimes when I think about going back to the younger version of myself, that's the part where I'm like, oh my God. Yeah, that was exciting. Cause, like, I just believed in fairy tales and hope and all of these things. And I still do. But it's on top of a lot of deprogramming and reprogramming.”
    (Rory, 10:24)

• The impact of trauma on personal growth and the role of therapy and self-reflection.

---

3. Societal Conditioning & Patriarchy in Love

Timestamps: 16:46–20:24

• The persistent myth of being “chosen” and how women are socialized to seek validation through love.

  • Quote:
    “We grew up in the era where the greatest thing you could be was chosen. We were never taught… to choose.”
    (Sophia, 16:46)

• Rory’s mission with her book: Teaching women to claim agency—“Stop trying to be chosen and learn how to choose.”

• Impact of generational changes: Fewer women choosing marriage in recent decades.

---

4. Vulnerability, Shame, and the Process of Writing

Timestamps: 20:39–23:50

• Rory opens up about her process—writing vulnerably, despite fear that the stories are “too much.”
• Importance of accountability and embracing embarrassment as keys to healing and true connection.
  • Quote:
    “If I share my embarrassing things, maybe you'll share your embarrassing things, and then no one has to be embarrassed.”
    (Rory, 31:22)

---

5. Reframing Heartbreak as a Catalyst

Timestamps: 34:15–39:38

• Heartbreak as life’s “greatest inertia”—enabling personal reinvention, creativity, and resilience.

  • Quote:
    “You'll never have more inertia in your life than after you have your heart broken. Sometimes we fail to start over and we need someone to restart us. It's a full reboot.”
    (Rory, 34:28)

• The necessity of difficult experiences in shaping self-awareness and gratitude for life’s “hard-won” moments.

• Mary Oliver reference: “A box of darkness... That too, was a gift.”

  • Used to illustrate how pain, while hard, can become a source of transformation.

---

6. The Book's Humor: 'Dicksand' and Levity

Timestamps: 41:44–43:05

• Rory explains “dicksand”—the quicksand-like trap of stagnant, situationship relationships.

  • Quote:
    “Dicksand is the relationship equivalent of that... relationships that keep you stagnant… if you are saying that knowing that you also actually do want to like have kids or get married or move in together, and you're in this casual thing, well, like that's, you're actually not in alignment.”
    (Rory, 41:49)

• Chronic breakups, situationships, and the pain of wasted time.

---

7. Breakups, Healing Protocols, and Communication

Timestamps: 48:09–50:58

• There is a societal protocol for physical injuries, but not for healing heartbreak.

• Emphasizes the need for "no contact," heartbreak “funerals,” and personal boundaries.

• On ghosting:

  • Quote:
    “When somebody ghosts, it's never a reflection of you. It's always a reflection of them... it's their inability to have an uncomfortable conversation.”
    (Rory, 49:37)

• Practical advice: Start practicing boundaries with small “no’s” to grow into bolder self-expression.

---

8. Patriarchal Conditioning, Gender, and Shame

Timestamps: 54:20–60:39

• How media and societal scripts prime women for romantic disappointment and reinforce the “good girl”/“player” double standard.

  • Quote:
    “Women have been conditioned to be palatable to men and to perform a certain way in order to be loved… A lot of it is conditioning.”
    (Rory, 54:20)

• The roots of slut-shaming: religion, agriculture, economic control, and patriarchal stability.

• Monica Lewinsky reference and the idea of the “scarlet albatross”—society’s persistent, punishing shame for women.

---

9. Challenging Narrative: Singlehood and Relationship as Value

Timestamps: 69:06–74:05

• The myth of “spinsterhood” and how independence is historically framed as negative for women.

  • Quote:
    “Spinster was a financially independent woman who was not married in her 30s. But that was seen as a negative.”
    (Rory, 70:01)

• The societal imperative to position romantic relationships as life’s central, validating achievement—often oppressing women and encouraging settling for less.

• The “single renaissance”—redefining value outside of romance.

---

10. Being Your Own Best Friend & Setting Boundaries

Timestamps: 76:12–81:27

• Rory’s life mantra: “Be your own best friend.”

  • Exercise: Imagine your best friend in your relationship. Would you want that for them? If not, why accept it for yourself?

• On self-talk: Most of us are crueler to ourselves than we’d ever be to a loved one.

  • Quote:
    “The person that has hurt me the most is me, full stop.”
    (Rory, 77:11)

• Decluttering past relationships with the “Relationship Graveyard” method—delete threads, rename contacts, refuse haunting exes.

---

11. Ghosting and Rewriting Your Story

Timestamps: 78:58–81:24

• Ghosting as an ‘epidemic’; reframing it as “rejection is protection.”
• The importance of controlling your inner narrative:
  • “A lot of times the call is coming from inside the house.”
• Emphasis on healing for women, by women, in a world “not meant for you.”

---

12. Health & Personal Works in Progress

Timestamps: 81:41–82:49

• Rory shares ongoing work on health issues:
  • Experimenting with melasma treatments (connected to skin/autoimmune issues)
  • Recent experimentation with low-dose naltrexone and GLP-1 microdosing for chronic fatigue.
• Commitment to sharing findings and keeping wellness an open conversation.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Stop trying to be chosen and learn how to choose, because you really are the decision maker—even though we grew up in a world that has conditioned you to believe that you need to be picked.” (Rory, 17:11)
• “Accountability is one of the absolute superpowers of any final girl. And by the way, anybody can be a final girl. That’s a genderless title in my opinion.” (Rory, 30:20)
• “You can’t tame what you can’t name.” (Sophia, 34:15)
• “If I share my embarrassing things, maybe you'll share your embarrassing things, and then no one has to be embarrassed.” (Rory, 31:22)
• “You cannot wreck a home that was never fully built. If you can take it, if it walks freely, you can't steal something that walks away freely.” (Rory, 63:37)
• “There are the horrors that happen to you and there are the horrors that happen inside of you. And a lot of times the call is coming from inside the house.” (Rory, 80:42)
• “Be your own best friend… Think about your relationship right now and put your best friend in it. Your daughter, your sister, your mother. Are you rooting for them?... If you would never let somebody speak to them that way or treat them that way, why do you do that to yourself?” (Rory, 76:12 & 77:27)

---

Episode Flow & Tone

• Deeply personal, both humorous and poignant.
• Rich in feminist analysis, pop culture references, and practical advice.
• Equal parts self-aware, compassionate, and unflinchingly honest—reflecting the “work in progress” ethos.

---

For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In…

• This episode is a must for anyone interested in unlearning patriarchal narratives, building resilience, and finding joy on their own terms.
• Rory Uphold’s insights blend the metaphorical with the real—helping listeners see heartbreak, shame, and self-worth with new clarity.
• There’s practical, tangible advice—how to break cycles, heal, and champion yourself (and your friends) in life and love.
• Above all, the episode inspires: you’re allowed to be both “a masterpiece and a work in progress, simultaneously.”

---

Recommended Segments

• [13:19] Love, Death, and Horror Metaphors
• [17:11] Shifting From “Being Chosen” to Choosing Yourself
• [31:22] Sharing Shame and Connection
• [41:49] The Perils of “Dicksand”
• [76:12] “Be Your Own Best Friend” Mantra

---

Get Rory’s book, follow her irreverent advice online, and never forget: surviving is only the beginning—thriving is the real story.

Transcript

[Rory Uphold]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older. To reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods while taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic to. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair this is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Why put dangerous chemicals on your skin when flowers are not only safer but actually more effective? Freya Organics uses wild arctic botanicals like arnica and sea buckthorn. These plants survive in some of the harshest climates on earth and have been shown to reduce wrinkles, boost collagen and deeply hydrate without putting your health at risk. It's not about fighting aging, it's about treating your skin with the same attention and care you give everything else in your life. So visit froyaorganics.com today and get 40% off. That's froya f r o y a.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

Organics.Com hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. One of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Now you don't even need to wrap it.

[Rory Uphold]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. This week, friends, Happy holidays. As a gift to you, I have one of my best friends coming on the podcast today. We are joined by none other than Rory Uphold. You see her on Instagram at I could be blonder. She's either giving you incredible advice on dating life or skin care. She is an incredible writer and creative who I've been lucky enough to call my friend family for almost two decades now. And she's here to talk about her new best selling book, A Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors of Dating. What is a Final Girl, you ask? Yes, she's a popular horror movie trope. The movie's sole survivor. The last one standing to confront the killer, the only one left to tell the tale and the one you root for. She is all of us, friends with her. Her signature wit, vulnerability and voice. Rory is inviting you to survive and thrive as the final girl of your own love story. Let's dive in with Rory. Uphold. I like that you're in the hot seat now. Yeah, cuz I did the first season of your podcast.

[Rory Uphold]

I think you. You were the. You were episode two. I was two, but you were the first one I ever recorded.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It was fun. It was very fun. Yeah, we talked about the orgasm gap.

[Rory Uphold]

People really liked that and that gap is. Is wide.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well now we're gonna talk about your best selling book. But before we jump into this, for our friends at home who might be like, what's going on? Why are these two women just shooting the friends and guests we Happen to be here today with one of my best friends. Rory Uphold is here. You have listened to me on her wonderful podcast, Crimes of the Heart. She just wrote this incredible book, a Final Girl's Guide to the Horrors of Dating, which we have discussed online, but we're gonna discuss on the show today. But before we do that, and we definitely tell some stories that will wind up on the cutting room floor. Cause they're just for us and not for the people. Sorry. Not sorry. I want to go backwards. Because we've been friends for like, a decade and a half.

[Rory Uphold]

No, your producer just asked me that. She was like, how long have you guys known each other? And I said, I don't know. Like, 2010, I think. 2012.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I don't know.

[Rory Uphold]

I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to really go back into, like.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I'd have to actually go through my camera roll to figure it out, which I don't even know if I would know how to do to go back.

[Rory Uphold]

How many phones?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Right?

[Rory Uphold]

How many phones back you.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I don't know.

[Rory Uphold]

It's been a minute.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's been a very long time. I'm gonna settle on a decade and a half. I think it's about there. But I'm furious that you haven't been in my life since birth, because I feel cheated. And I'm so glad you've been here for 15 years. But I wanna know if our adult selves got to hang when they were little, like 8 or 9 years old.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

What would the vibe have been?

[Rory Uphold]

Oh, I was like, yeah, I think we would have liked to see it.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Oh, 100% we would have. But, like, who was Rory as a little kid?

[Rory Uphold]

I fear for whoever was hanging out with us because I have a feeling you and I would have been running like, no, no, no, no. The playhouse needs to be built this way. Yeah, please do that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

That's too in the sun. Moon in the shade.

[Rory Uphold]

No, I was. I wasn't into sun protection until later in life. I used to be, like, so tan, you wouldn't even recognize me. Yeah, Yeah. I had white hair. Super, super tan. Like the color of your jacket.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

What?

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah. If I had my phone, I would show you a photo. It's crazy.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

My palest, most sun protected friend was in the sun as a child. Wow.

[Rory Uphold]

Yes. Yes. And my mom was always really dialed in on that. But it wasn't until I got melasma that I got Hashimoto's. And then I quickly developed melasma, and the two really do go hand in hand because of the relationship with Hashimoto's and the liver and how estrogen gets processed and melasma's related to estrogen. But nobody knew this. When I got diagnosed, I was just told, oh, you have melasma. It can't be cured, and that's it. And so then I was, like, on my own to try and figure all this out, which is how I became so obsessive about all of this stuff.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Guys, if you have a question about dating or medicine, Royce, your girl, Maybe.

[Rory Uphold]

Well, if you have, like, weird.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

Chronic illnesses that doctors can't figure out or skin related stuff. Yeah. Because those are the two things that I feel like I've had to really overcome. Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

But what about at 8?

[Sophie Cunningham]

Set.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Set the scene for me. What was the vibe? What were you into? What did your days look like at 8?

[Rory Uphold]

Well, I was really. Gosh. Okay, wait, at 8? Okay.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Or maybe the. Maybe the way to ask the question is, do you think if you could interact with your eight or nine year old self, would you see some of the traits of your adult self in her?

[Rory Uphold]

Yes. Although I feel like that question always makes me really sad because I think something that happens in life to all of us is that as we get older, we get beaten down.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And we collect trauma and baggage and that there was, like a sparkle and a joy and an innocence that I had back then that I don't have anymore. And that part makes me sad.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

Working on that with my somatic therapist.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We were talking about that last night.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just think that, like. Okay, I put it this way. So imagine you get into a car accident in an intersection. Like, you're going through a green light and a car from the other direction. T bones you, right. The next time you go through that intersection, you're probably gonna be scared. And maybe it's just all intersections where you're like, right, this wasn't supposed to happen. And it came out of nowhere and it totaled my car and it injured me and whatever that would be. Normal people wouldn't look at you twice. But we don't. We don't have the same sort of treatment when it comes to emotional hurts and relationships. And so many people have t boned me in my personal life. And that's sort of what I mean. When I was 8, like, I didn't know that I was in for, like, a world of hurt.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And I didn't know that I would be as resilient as I am in all of those things. But I think sometimes when I think about going back to the younger version of myself.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

That's the part where I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, that was exciting. Cause, like, I just believed in fairy tales and hope and all of these things. And I still do. But it's on top of a lot of deprogramming and reprogramming.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Absolutely.

[Rory Uphold]

It's not as pure.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes, that was the word that came to mind for me. It's so pure before, you know.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And it's not that you can't cultivate magic or joy or sparkle, but we are. We're imprinted by loss and suffering and all of those things. And I was talking about this the other day, thinking about, you know, the holiday with family and just being like, man, I'm so grateful. And this was so hard won. And I think there's a. There's an element of how deeply I cherish things in my life because of how hard they were to get to. Yeah. And there's no way to not be shaped by the hard 100%.

[Rory Uphold]

And I think that that's. Yeah, that's sort of what I. That's what I meant.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Is it that thing, like that kind of connective tissue that you can draw across time? When you started thinking about how to use the hard for something, when did it morph into the idea of being like a horror movie?

[Rory Uphold]

Oh, oh. With love and dating. Cause I was gonna say, like. Yeah, I always wrote as a kid, like, when high school got rough. Yeah. I have hundreds of journals and diaries.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

That are the thing.

[Rory Uphold]

I wish I had hundreds. I would go through one a week. What a full. Yeah. And I was the head of yearbook and the head of photography, so I was never without a camera. Videotaped my entire senior year. People just like, let me do that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

So you just have it.

[Rory Uphold]

So I was just. Yeah, just. Just have all of this stuff. So I was always used to, like, documenting, and when things would get rough, like, I would just write it all out. So I think that was always an outlet. But then, I don't know the way there was a couple things, like, I had been the person that had these, like, wild, crazy stories. I've always been really comfortable talking about sex or things that most people kind of shy away from. Like, I'm like, ooh, let's talk about that. Like, I'm curious. Let's dive in there. And then also some of my experiences, like, really shaped future relationships. And so that piece, coupled with what I was seeing in media like, the way people talk about dating, it's a horror show. It's a nightmare. It's a hellscape. And I thought, this is crazy, because we say till death do us part in marriage.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

I fell in love. She took my breath away. Those are horrific statements. Even. Even an orgasm means a little death in French. So there's this weird, like, intertwined relationship between love and death in the way that we. We speak about it. And I thought, that's crazy that I've never seen that played with. And so I kept kind of teasing that out and thinking, I can do something with that. And then terms like ghosting, orbiting zombie, all of that came into the forefront. Bed, death. And I realized, like, oh, okay. Yeah. I just need to, like, now go through my experiences and figure it out, because I've definitely dated some, like, serial killers of love and, you know, like, had these kind of. Yeah. Like, horrific experiences. And then the more that I dug, the more I realized, wow, like, the interplay between kind of love and death is really close. Just even in, like, the history of werewolves as a. As lore.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Okay, say more about that.

[Rory Uphold]

Well, they're cursed creatures, and sometimes they're the victims, and sometimes they're the villains. In the same way that, like, you know, zombies were regular people before they were bitten by another zombie. Hurt people. Hurt people. This idea of that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And then horror, just as a genre, has always been used as a metaphor.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Right.

[Rory Uphold]

Like, most people, I think, at this point have seen Get Out. I could use, like, other classics, but, you know, get out is obviously a metaphor for racism. So was dawn of the Dead. And, like, it follows was definitely an examination of sex and STIs. And I think that it's really interesting to me that this genre gets used as a metaphor, and I wanted to do the same. And the idea of the final girl. Carol Clover came up with that term because male audience. Well, audiences in general don't identify with scared men. So in order for a horror movie to work, we need to root for the person who survives.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Right, Right.

[Rory Uphold]

And if you think about your favorite horror movie or a horror movie that, you know, if you don't like horror, think about the survivor. It's generally a woman.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

The final girl. The girl who survives in the end. And that's because the movie doesn't work if it's a man. Because audience. She noticed that audiences didn't really relate to a scared or screaming or terrified male. They were more apt to relate to the killer. And that just doesn't work in terms of, like, the filmmaker needs you to root for the person who's going to survive. And that, I think, says volumes about the book, about dating, about everything. And just, like, how we as a society view gender and sexuality and relationships and marriage. And once I started to dig into that, I really realized, like, personally, a lot of my problems stemmed from the fact that I grew up in a really complicated patriarchal society where, like, bubblegum misogyny was, like, peaking when I was coming into my sexuality. It was very confusing, this idea of, like, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a sexy woman, or wanted, what successful relationships look like. Just marriage, kids, all of it.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. It is a really interesting thing to think about. Like, this notion of being wanted. Like, of all the words that you just said to me, that jumps out. Because we grew up in the era where the greatest thing you could be was chosen. We were never taught so dark to choose.

[Rory Uphold]

Yes. And that has been, like, I would say there are a handful of things that I wanted to do with my book. And one of the. At the very top was to teach women stop trying to be chosen and learn how to choose, because you really are the decision maker. Even though we grew up in a world that has conditioned you to believe that you need to be picked.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

Everything from, like, the way that dating books speak to women. Why do men love bitches? I don't know. I don't give a. I don't, like, I don't care. Like, I stop trying to perform for men.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Rory Uphold]

Like, that is the thing that just drove me nuts. Like, I looked at all of these dating books and realized they all had that in common. It was, like, predicated on the belief that women needed to be a certain way in order to get the love that they wanted. And I just fundamentally don't believe that's true.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

But where do you think the shift.

[Rory Uphold]

Came from in me, or.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, because we've all. Listen, like, our group of friends, our generation, our friends, friends, everyone is having to, as you said earlier, unlearn a lot. And I know I said this to you recently, but, you know, personal example for the friends at home, I realized even when I thought I was choosing for a lot of my life, I was choosing from the options I was given. It was very much like, here's four forks. Pick one. And, like, there's a whole IKEA full of forks. Like, there's hundreds of thousands of forks. What do you mean I get to choose from four?

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Like, I think sometimes in our generation, certainly what we've believed were our choices were also kind of an illusion.

[Rory Uphold]

So we seek out what's familiar. And when you grow up in a world that is only showing you certain types of love, it might be hard to imagine that there's a different love outside of that. And I think the more that I learned about neuroplasticity, brain chemistry, rewiring your. I call them inner demons because that fits with the book. But some people call them limiting beliefs, the negative thoughts that hold you back, the story that you're telling yourself. A lot of that stuff is predicated on, like, experiences you had, but also what you grew up with. And part of it is giving your brain new data, new information to create new beliefs. Right. So I think it's a. It's. It's a little bit of that. And then also it was research. It was me realizing, like, oh, yeah, women have had 50 years of financial and bodily autonomy, financial freedom and bodily autonomy, and that has, like, had cataclysmic results in both good and bad. Bad ways. I mean, like, bad depending on who you are. You know, if you're a man that is under the nerdy, really don't like it, and you're single, you know, and you are claiming male loneliness epidemic, then yeah, I can understand why you might be bummed.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

But like, in the 70s, 90% of women in their 30s were married, and now 30%. I think maybe it's 32. 30, 32%. So you're telling me in 50 years, close to 60% of women decided, I'm good on marriage. Guys, those are crazy numbers.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And so I think there's a huge shift, and I credit a lot of it to my parents in therapy and introspection and just curiosity. Yeah. And also getting my ass handed to me romantically. Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well, that's one of the things that, as your friend, I'm also so impressed by. And, like, I get that clenchy, like, ooh. Like, there are things you put in this book. It's so funny and it's so painful and it's so eye opening and it's so vulnerable. Like, was it so scary? How did you decide what went in the book? Like, walk us through how this happens. You start to realize, okay, the way we talk about these things, the weird memento mori of love and dating and all of it really does sound like a horror movie. We've all been in the horror movies. Like, when the idea starts to crystallize, how do you actually begin this? And how do you decide what to put in the Book.

[Rory Uphold]

It's so interesting because when I first had the idea, I told my manager, who's no longer my manager, and he didn't get it. And I tried to talk about it to a couple of people, and they didn't get it. And it made me realize, like, oh, I'm really gonna have to, like, dig deep and figure out a way to make this crystal clear. Because, like, I felt it, I saw it, but I couldn't articulate it in a way that it le that people were gravitating toward or understanding.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Interesting.

[Rory Uphold]

So that was, like, part one. And then I just started writing, and at the. And I didn't know what it was gonna be, and it was just like a collection of stories. And then I worked with my friend Sophie Flack, who sometimes works with people on books, like, on a book by book basis. And I had this essay that is now monsters, about how I went on a very bad date to Halloween horror nights. And I realized that, like. And I hate being scared. Cause I have. I've been attacked. So the thought of, like, paying a bunch of money to recreate that trauma is my literal worst nightmare.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

What?

[Rory Uphold]

But, you know, the guy that I dating was like, I'll be there for, like, I'll hold your hand. It'll be fine. Whatever. And I'm like, I was at a phase in my life where being single seemed scarier than Halloween horror nights. So I. I just did it. And, like, that's on me. That really is on me. That's on being a blonde in the horror movie. So I, like, kept walking down that dark hallway. And then what? He. He left me. Like, he left me. I had to walk through the park by myself. The experience was so horrific, so traumatic. The biggest monster was 100% my date. But the scariest thing was, like, how much of a willing participant I was. And in writing about this, Sophie was like, this could be the whole book. And I knew that that wasn't it. But as I was driving, like, one day it just hit and it just kind of all crystallized. And then it was just cataloging the stories and figuring out, okay, this is this. This is this monster. These are these stories. And, like, these are these lessons. And this is what I can give to people. And when I wr it, I honestly made a rule that, like, I was going to write it as if no one was ever going to read it and be as honest and vulnerable. Because what's the point? Like, for me, like, I didn't write this book for any other reason than I really did genuinely want to help people.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And you can't like hold back.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Oh, it's so hard though.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. Okay. Whip Smarties, let me tell you a brand I adore. Adore me. Whether you're looking for more comfort, more cleavage, or both, Adormi has you covered. Adormi offers tons of sizes with new, thoughtfully designed bras, panties, lingerie, shapewear, sleepwear, and swimwear to choose from each month. You can elevate your underwear drawer with high quality sets that won't break the bank. Also, it's so nice to find a silhouette for every occasion with expertly fit bras and shapewear that defy gravity and bold lingerie styles that are just as comfortable as they are sexy. Let me tell you what, I'm a fan of the silhouette for every occasion idea, guys, because sometimes you want something beautiful, colorful, satiny, and sometimes you need something that goes full incognito, nude, simple T shirt bra. You know what I'm talking about. Whether it's bows or lace or whether it's sleek, undetectable fit and support, Adormi has you covered. And with style starting as low as $24.95, you can feel confident even if you're on a budget. Head to adoremy.com now to shop styles from comfortable to sexy in over 67 sizes.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair, 150 milligrams is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe, life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair. This is an advertisement for Xolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

The following ad is sponsored by Pet's Best Insurance Services. You knew right away he's perfect. The one for you. Those puppy dog eyes, that cute little button nose. You don't even mind the drool. When you find your perfect match in a dog or cat, the love is unconditional. Your budget, on the other hand, has realistic limits. Help protect your heart and your wallet with pet insurance from Pets Best. With plans starting from less than a dollar a day, you can get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills. Pets Best makes it easy to pick a plan that works for you and your bank account. Find the perfect match for your Perfect [e-mail] Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services LLC. $1 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

There's a few things I think about. There's like a few buckets of experience. There's the one weird thing where for some reason as women we're supposed to just like get over everything. But also everything that happens to you shapes you, you know? Then there's this idea that if you have done the work to actually get over something and you are reflective about it, that like, you're not letting it go or you're obsessed and you're like, no, I've liter process it. I can talk about it like grocery list and like, I'm giving you my grocery list. And then there's also, there's. There's the fear, I think, of letting people into heartache, hurt. And on top of that vulnerability. It's part of the key to me is in what you just said about going to that Halloween horror nights. It's, oh, I was a willing participant in this.

[Rory Uphold]

That's the worst part.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Like, the worst part is having to go, oh, I ignored my gu. When or I got talked into compromising because that's the mature thing to do. And really I was compromising myself. Like, what I've had to realize going through my own version of your book, reading your book and, you know, going through life is like, oh, I. I have to own where I put up with that. I have to own where I let myself be treated that way. I have to own where I went back for more thinking I could fix it. And like, I was a participant in my own erasure or torture or silence or harm.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah, even.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Even sometimes just being good, like being.

[Rory Uphold]

A good girl, which is a huge thing for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes. Yeah, totally.

[Rory Uphold]

I think the thing is though, it's like, so accountability is like one of the absolute superpowers of any final girl. And by the way, anybody can be a final girl. That's a genderless type title in my opinion. But the thing is, is that on the other side of realizing your participation is the answer. And it's like underneath, wanting to be good is probably, I'm gonna just take a guess. Wanting to be loved. And then underneath that is that love is conditional. And when you realize, oh, I have a fear that love is conditional, you can work on that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And I have love. Love is conditional was a thing for me, but it was more in being good enough and being hot enough or pretty enough or palatable enough, like all of these things. So the thing is, is if you don't take the accountability piece, which is very hard and very embarrassing. Like, there are a lot of very embarrassing things that I did and wrote about.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

But that's because if I share my embarrassing things, maybe you'll share your embarrassing.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Things, and then no one has to be embarrassed.

[Rory Uphold]

A and B, then you can do something with it. Yeah. Like, you know, if you're. If. If you're so afraid of being the villain in someone else's story or being the villain in your story, then, like, you Might never actually get to heal. And then what's the point? Oof.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well, you make a lot of points in this book, my dear. One of the things I think is really interesting about it is you go so far to deconstruct shame, your own and ours as readers, and to encourage us to do the same. As you were just saying. I like that you talk not just about surviving the horrors, but you talk about thriving in a modern love landscape. So doing this kind of inventory, taking this kind of accountability, also reading some people for filth who deserved it. How do you now think about love? Like, to you, on the other side of all of this, what is a modern love landscape?

[Rory Uphold]

Oh, that's so interesting. Well, I think the crazy thing about that is that my answer will be different than yours, which will be different than anybody's. And that's the most important part, is that instead of growing up in a world where we were all taught, like, love looks like this and this is what is successful, that ultimately it's about really going inward and figuring out, like, what is your version of happily ever after.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

A.

[Rory Uphold]

That would be my, like, official answer.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And then I think, like, for me, personally, like, I grew up with parents who are still married. You know, I grew up with the father who comes home with flowers just because he wants to make my mom happy and who, on their 25th wedding anniversary, re proposed with a ring twice the size and asked for another 25 years of marriage without anyone's help. Like, I also grew up with the man that gave my mom a salary to be a mom. You know, I grew up in a really traditional meets very progressive household.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

So my ideas of love and feminism are a little, like, different.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And I 100% believe it's out there. I know that it exists. And I will say that after writing this book, I do think that my relationships have improved and I haven't had any kind of, like, horrifying stories since.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I love that you say this has really changed the trajectory of your dating life. It's like that thing about you can't. Like, you can't heal what you can't see and I think, can't tame what you can't name.

[Rory Uphold]

Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I like. I think you writing this book was such an excavation of self. I'm curious why, on the other side of it, you think that heartbreak can be the best thing that's ever happened to you.

[Rory Uphold]

Because you'll never have more inertia in your life than after you have your heart broken. And sometimes we fail to start over and we need someone to restart us. It's a full reboot. And I think that when you can understand that life happens for you, not to you, you can start to really rewrite your own. Like, step into your power in your future. But again, that's so much easier to do when you have, like, all of the momentum and inertia that heartbreak brings. Like, nothing will level set your life in that way. That's. It's. It's a kind of loss. And like, heartbreak also goes with death. Right. Like, you can feel heartbroken sometimes. Breakups are. Because they've quite literally left Earth. We don't necessarily call them breakups, but, like, that is a part of it.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Right?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And you are never gonna love without loss. That's the gamble.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And just knowing that it's an opportunity. It's an opportunity to, like, reset. And we would never choose that because as humans, we're wired for comfort.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Rory Uphold]

So you're never going to, like, decide to throw yourself into the most uncomfortable, destabilizing circumstances of your life. But if you can get on board with that, you'll. The most powerful change is on the other side of that. And I think that that's really exciting, which is not to, like, toxic positivity. Like a terrible situation.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

Obviously it can still suck and it can be awful, but you can take the suck and the awful and turn it into something that becomes your whole life. Like, I never would have written this book if I hadn't had my heart broken. And that's not because of what the contents of that book. It's that, like, right before we met, I thought I was getting married. And spoiler, that did not.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

That did not happen.

[Rory Uphold]

But in the aftermath of what was arguably one of the most traumatic experiences of my life, I wrote my first short film. And I had been in music.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And I had a whole career writing in TV and books and all of this other stuff that I never would have had.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

I met Full.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I probably would have stayed writing music and that would have been.

[Rory Uphold]

Or who knows. Who knows what I would have done. But, like, I probably wouldn't have met you. I mean, I don't know who I would have missed out on meeting, missed out on dating. It was also, like, at a film festival for that short film that I made that I met my next boyfriend, who I dated and lived with for, like, three years and who isn't in this book. Cause he's not a monster. And you know what I mean? Like, there's so many things that came from that. That never would have happened. Like, I just. I just wouldn't be here.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I think it's a really good lens because, you know, when. When we talked at the top of the hour about how it's kind of hard to look at our sweet, little pure, never heartbroken selves. It's also like, the things that happen do propel you into purpose, into a future that was more meant for you. And, you know, sometimes I think, like, oh, it would have been nice if it didn't have to be so intense. Like, I would have preferred to have not been dragged here.

[Rory Uphold]

Like, the PG version.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Please and thank you. But at the same time, it's like, I also. I think when you're really happy where you are, you wouldn't want to risk missing it to, like, fix something before, you know, I. I don't know. It's something I sort of toy with a lot. I try to figure out the things that are still the hardest for me to think about or carry. Like, I. Every so often, I'm like, if I can figure out a way to be thankful for that, if I can figure out a way to understand that, like, it is part of the sum total of what's good also. Yeah, it's like. It's sort of a torturous exercise, but I do try.

[Rory Uphold]

It's. Yes and. Okay, everybody that's listening right now, think of one thing that you've wanted to change. There's something. There's something that you want to change. It's either a skill you want to learn something about yourself, a work thing, a friend thing. And I'm talking about the thing that you've actually wanted to do this whole year, maybe the last five years, maybe the last 10 years. Well, why haven't you done it?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

That's not a judgment. That's just a. Sometimes breakups, sometimes that hurt, that pain can be the catalyst to finally do the thing.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Rory Uphold]

And that's. I think, what we're speaking about. That, like, pain is awful and growth is really hard and nobody's gonna actively choose that. But when you're given. Oh, it's like that Mary Oliver poem. I realize once a box of darkness. I realized that, too, is a gift. And it's like, that's what we're talking about.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's big stuff. It's heavy, and.

[Rory Uphold]

And we're not taught it. At least I wasn't.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Not at all.

[Rory Uphold]

No.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We are taught to model things that aren't even real half the time. Like, I. And I. You know, I think about this all the time. Like, I pursued a perfect model of what I thought happiness was, to fix what I'd missed in my life and my childhood and to, like, heal my, you know, generational inheritances and whatever. And then I was like, oh, this.

[Rory Uphold]

Is not making me happy at all.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

This is. This isn't that. This is. This is actually more of what I was trying to heal. Holy shit. And it was a very traumatic. I don't want to, like, use the trauma word too much. It was a very unsettling. Like, it was sort of like being in an earthquake on the inside.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

You know, it was really destabilizing. Yes, very destabilizing, very confusing, and also really profound. And I needed to know that the thing I had subconsciously, you know, in conditioning and all of it believed was the answer. Wasn't that, like. That my joy is the only answer. Like, the only thing that's going to bring joy into my life is actually finding joy. I can't build it. I have to find it. Yeah. You know, you can work toward it, but you have to. Like, you can't build it. Like, you can build a house. It's not a thing.

[Rory Uphold]

Oh, I know. I've tried.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

How haven't we tried? And that. It's something I love about you and I love about our friendship, is I can have the deepest conversations with you and also the most inappropriate, hilarious conversations with you. Like, there are things I have said to Rory, you guys, that I'm like, well, we're carrying this to the grave, and you have a term in your book that makes me cackle. So for our friends that are like, give me a moment of levity, please. Can you talk to people about the perils of dicksand?

[Rory Uphold]

Oh, oh, yes. Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Tell the people what dicksand is.

[Rory Uphold]

Okay, so Dicksand. There's a whole chapter in the book, and I feel like I grew up obsessed with quicksand, thinking, like, oh, God, at any moment, the world underneath me could just sink. And then I found out when I was writing this book that. That it's actually not real. Like, you won't die in quicksand unless you happen to get in quicksand in a flood or something like crazy like that. It's just not something that you're gonna die from. But dicksand might kill you. Dicksand is the relationship equivalent of that. So I talk about the four different types, and it's like textual relationships, any kind of diplomatization, chronic breakups, things like that. So relationships that keep you stagnant. Like forward motion progress is, is, is the goal. And look, sometimes you want to date somebody just because you want to date somebody and like, that's fine. But if you are saying that knowing that you also actually do want to like have kids or get married or move in together and, and you're in this casual thing, well, like that's, you're actually not in alignment and what you're doing is just wasting time.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And nothing hurts more than getting out of a situationship and looking back and being like, wow, that was two years of my life. That is crazy.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Uh huh.

[Rory Uphold]

I can't get those two years back.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors. Okay, Whip Smarties, let me tell you a brand I adore. Adore me. Whether you're looking for more comfort, more cleavage, or both, Adormi has you covered. Adormi offers tons of sizes with new thoughtfully designed bras, panties, lingerie, shapewear, sleepwear, and swimwear to choose from each month. You can elevate your underwear drawer with high quality sets that won't break the bank. Also, it's so nice to find a silhouette for every occasion with expertly fit bras and shapewear that defy gravity and bold lingerie styles that are just as comfortable as they are sexy. Let me tell you what, I'm a fan of the silhouette for every occasion idea, guys. Because sometimes you want something beautiful, colorful, satiny, and sometimes you need something that goes full, incognito, nude, simple T shirt bra. You know what I'm talking about. Whether it's bows or lace, or whether it's sleek, undetectable, fit and support, Adormi has you covered. And with styles starting as low as $24.95, you can feel confident even if you're on a budget. Head to adoremy.com now to shop styles from comfortable to sexy in over 67 sizes.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older. To reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods while taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair this is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snore loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don't sleep on osa.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

Your pet is your bestie, your therapist, your perfect match. It's easy to love them. It's easy to protect them too, with pet insurance coverage from petsback because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't and you get a vet bill to match. With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world. Get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills from less than a dollar a day. Pets Best has plans to cover accidents, injuries and more, from puppies and kittens to seniors. Find your Perfect Match plan and get a [e-mail] Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans, pets, age 0 to 10.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

That thing you said to the chronic breakups. Like, I don't. I'm really trying to think of if I know anyone who's gone through a breakup and then gone back and been happy about it.

[Rory Uphold]

I can think of one person.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Ooh, okay.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

There's always an exception to every one person. Yes, yes. It's like.

[Rory Uphold]

But rarely.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And think about this. There is a protocol for when you break your arm, right?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

You set it and it heals. And if it doesn't, then it's a chronic break. Now I'm like, if a doctor is listening to this, they're gonna be like, this is not really the terms that we use. Because my sister, who's an np, was like, that's not super accurate. And I was like, just. You're like, let me have my medicine. Yeah, please, please. But if something isn't making progress, healing within five to six weeks, it's considered, like, problematic. And I think the same thing is true of breakups. And actually studies show that the initial sting wears off around six weeks. But we don't have a protocol for how to set a broken heart. We don't have standard procedures. I think no contact is really important. I think you have to. I talk about throwing a funeral and building some of these systems in place to help you heal, because otherwise it does become kind of infected. It does become this malignant chronic break, and it'll create a deformity on your heart. But think about it. We don't really have. You have to be your own kind of physician and the person that is setting your emotional heartbreak, because otherwise your brain wants to protect you from making the same mistake.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Rory Uphold]

So it will repeat memories and stories. And if you got ghosted, well, that's even worse because you're gonna be trying to search for an answer, a reason why something that you missed, which is really just like a lot of self torture. Because the reality is when somebody ghosts, it's never a reflection of you. It's always a reflection of them. It's their inability to have an uncomfortable conversation, which is truly tragic. That's why we're in a communication crisis. Like, you gotta be able to have uncomfortable conversations, even if this isn't the person you want to be with. Well, what happens when you are with the person you want to be with? But you've practiced, because all relationships are. Is practice. And so if the way that you practice is by ghosting or avoiding, that's only going to be perpetuated in the relationships that you actually do care about. Anyway, I've, like, really sidetracked, but.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Oh, I love that. But how do you think. How do people start. Like, how do you start learning to really speak up? Because I know, at least for women, you know, we're always so worried about, like, saying too many things, having too many complaints, being a nag, like those. Those sort of tropes. So, like, having done as much research as you have and having had as many experiences as you have, like, how do you encourage people to start shifting those paradigms?

[Rory Uphold]

So first it's like, with yourself, you can practice with yourself before you practice with others. In the advice part of Werewolves, I talk about agency and learning how to say no. And for some people who are really huge, huge people pleasers, which this relates to having uncomfortable conversations, but huge people pleasers, just saying no when somebody asks you, do you want a receipt or would you like to see a dessert menu? That might feel really risky, so start there. For other people, it might be a little more advanced, like when your coworkers ask you to go get drinks after, or your friend says, hey, do you want to get dinner or something. Learning how to say no to people that you care about or dynamics that feel kind of scary. And just practicing that muscle. And maybe you need to have a script like an actor where you recite the lines until it's in your bones, in your body. There's different kind of tactics to practice that. And then I think, you know, bravery encourages a muscle. You're not going to build it, like, overnight? I mean, I wish, but it's just small steps incrementally. So it is identifying. I feel really uncomfortable in this relationship, whether it's a friendship or a romantic situation, and getting really clear with yourself, like, you don't need the other person to do that. Why? And what is it? And if I could take all of the repercussions off the table, what is it that I would say? And write that down. And then think about whether or not you have the courage to say that. And if you do, do your best to try and put it into an I statement and not you statements, and do your best to shift it so that you take all of the vulnerability and the accountability where I could say, it really makes me uncomfortable when. Or I know this wasn't personal, but it really hurt my feelings when I wasn't invited to this thing and I saw you with all of our friends. And I just. I know that that's probably silly, but I Wanted to express that because it's how I've been feeling, you know, and I love you, and it just makes me feel bad sometimes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, that could be scary.

[Rory Uphold]

But also, then you give that person the opportunity to say, oh, my gosh. Actually, that was like, really last minute. We didn't even plan or. And by the way, this is truly off the top of my head. I have no idea. That scenario might sound silly or stupid to somebody, but sometimes we rob our friendships and our relationships. The opportunity to show up for us because we're too afraid to say this thing. That is scary.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really big lesson is not wanting to be a bother can actually be such an isolating behavior.

[Rory Uphold]

100%, because. Bother to who? Yeah, you don't know if it bothers me at all. Yeah, right.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's so interesting and I think, you know, certainly true in friendships. Certainly something that needs practice. To your point, in relationships, like.

[Sophie Cunningham]

What.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Do you think that is about? Do you think the fear of speaking up or expressing need falls under that? The less I need, the more I might be chosen, the more appealing I might be?

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah, look, I have, like a kind of a hot take that I think is. I don't know, maybe will be disagree, disagree, if you'd like. I just think that women have been conditioned to be palatable to men and to perform a certain way in order to be loved and that. But I do think marriage is DEI for men or has been for a really long time. That's not to say that it can't be great or that you can't have a great one. And, like, honestly, good on you. That's so amazing. But I really do think that just even in the way that, like, think about rom coms, what do all rom coms have in common? Well, somebody does something kind of messed up and they break up, and then one of them makes a grand gesture, realizes they can't live without each other, and they get back together. So what does that do? It's like, basically conditioned us for romantic disappointment, for romantic pain and to excuse it.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And I know that there's various rom coms where maybe that doesn't make sense, but also just the trope of you can be successful in work but not in love. And those things kind of get into our brain and that becomes information that we store and it plays into stories that we have. So then maybe you're a boss at work, but you've had trouble with your romantic life, and then all of a sudden you're like, well, see, I guess I'm just that girl.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yep.

[Rory Uphold]

When that girl was written by a bunch of men in a writer's room, you know, 40 years ago, like, it's just. I really do think that a lot of it is conditioning. Like, the whole idea of what a slut is the fact that we don't have. There's a himbo. But, like, other than that, it's really.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Like, it's a male word for that.

[Rory Uphold]

You're a boss, you're a player, you know, and those are seen as good things. But for a woman, you're run through, you're a whore, you're used up, like trashy, all of these things.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Why? Why do you think we're taught to fear sluts? Do you think that that's just men? Because it threatens the fabric of the patriarchy.

[Rory Uphold]

Say more about just chastity has its roots in religion and.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well, in agriculture, really.

[Rory Uphold]

And agriculture and the fabric of society. I mean, the whole idea of the Salem witch trials goes back to, yes, agriculture, but also the patriarchy. The puritanical, patriarchal nature of the society at that time was being threatened by outside stressors like smallpox, famine, and indigenous people were finally fighting back against colonization. And so it was weakening those structures. So then all of a sudden, anybody could claim which. And they did, and that tightened. The women have always paid the price.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And they'd take their land, and then.

[Rory Uphold]

They would take their land. And that's how the agriculture. Yes, that's how the agricultural piece fits into it. But women have always paid the price for the shortcomings of the patriarchy. And I think we've really seen that a lot in sexuality.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

And so if women are made to feel shame and made to feel smaller around sexuality, it's easier to control. Because also, if you can control the birth rate, you can control the economy. If you can't control the birth rate, you can't control the economy. So a lot of the things that we feel are so much bigger than just the shame of, like, the walk of shame.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Right.

[Rory Uphold]

The walk of shame is about the larger structures of society staying in place. It is about the economy. It is about the patriarchy. And I know that that sounds so hyperbolic, but it's the truth. And I think once you understand that, I'm not saying you have to rail against it. And here's the thing. I still want to get married. Is that, like, the dumbest financial decision of my life? Yeah, probably.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

Whatever.

[Rory Uphold]

I mean, like, ask any divorce lawyer. They'll be like, yeah, it's really not a smart move. I still believe in love. I still believe in all of these things. But I come at it from a totally different perspective. And I refuse to be, like, held in a prison. That is shame, because that shame isn't mine. Yeah, I collected that from other people, from other stories, that. Those aren't mine.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well, other people put it around your neck a hundred percent. Like, I will never forget this. I interviewed Monica Lewinsky recently, and she is so lovely.

[Rory Uphold]

Oh, yeah, she's so lovely.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And, God, I enjoy her company. And I was reading a bunch of older articles, trying to kind of contextualize what it was like before I knew her and how the world treats her. And she had written an article for Vanity Fair, and she talked about how people will hang the. She called it the scarlet albatross around your neck. And once they've put it there, it's almost impossible to take it off.

[Rory Uphold]

And she's done an incredible job at removing that. But society also finally started to catch up.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well, yes, and society has started to catch up and has started to say, oh, we treat women so terribly. All of them, by the way.

[Rory Uphold]

Oh, yeah. That is a universal truth.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And there's also a reality that if she starts doing too well for society's liking, they bring it up again.

[Rory Uphold]

Cut her down.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yes. If someone has a big, successful moment, let's bring up this shitty thing a man did to her or that she was put through or. And now I'm talking about so many more of us. And I think that there's something. I just think that there's something about it. It's not the job we should be doing, having to refuse other people's shame, but it is, I think, incredibly important work for us to do and for more and more women to do to maybe turn the tides.

[Rory Uphold]

I have. My brain is like, I want to say 400 things at one time, and that's not going to be humanly possible. I think that if you don't push through shame, you're gonna have a really hard time accessing your pleasure. So that's a conversation about sex. I think that we were raised and taught to blame other women for men's shitty behavior. I certainly was. It's the idea of a Monica Lewinsky. It's the idea of a femme fatale getting government secrets out of men. The thought of witches, just all of that. And I think we also live in a world where everything is driven by clicks. And that is kind of not the most important, but the most salacious tag of her life. Yes. And So I think there's so many things happening.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's something people can use her for, for their own gain, 100%. And, like, there's someone in our industry who has a, you know, big show, series of shows that, like, I just won't do anymore. Cause it was a. Not once, but twice. And I was like, there are so many more interesting things about me than something up a guy did to me once. I am not. I just won't be in this environment anymore. And I think shifting those things, like you said it. We're taught to fear or obsess about or villainize women. The other woman rather than the man making the decision. I mean, we just.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

We just had, like, a wild holiday when a friend of ours realized that another woman in, like, part of my story is in the friend group and in my house at the holiday party. I love our friendship. I love the friendship we've built, and I love that the two of us got to undo what we were put through when we were young. It's like, it doesn't have to be like this.

[Rory Uphold]

No, it doesn't.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

She was a kid.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And I was essentially a kid.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And all these years later, like, we have a friendship, and I get to see her baby all the time. And I love it.

[Rory Uphold]

Right.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

She was never the bad guy.

[Rory Uphold]

Right. But she was the bad guy for a certain period of time, because that is what we were taught.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

There's a woman right now that has been ordered to pay. I believe It's. It's either 1.25 or $1.75 million in North Carolina because she is a home wrecker. Oh. How much is the man ordered to pay, you might ask? $0.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

So, no.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

This is. You can Google it.

[Rory Uphold]

This is. I did not make this up. I couldn't even fathom this because there is, like, a home wrecker law in North Carolina. And I think that says it all. Right. That it's easier to blame the other woman than the man. If you can take my man, he is not my man.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yep.

[Rory Uphold]

You cannot wreck a home that was never fully built.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Nope.

[Rory Uphold]

If you can take it, if it walks freely, you can't steal something that walks away freely. So this idea that it's the other woman, just in the same way that, like, I should be able to walk out of the I Heart building into Burbank fully naked and not be assaulted.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Rory Uphold]

I should be able to hit on some guy and him not. And not. Not to be perceived as me trying to steal him. Like, assuming that he's, you know, I don't know. He's married.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Whatever. Well, yeah, he should be.

[Rory Uphold]

He has a contract with the other woman.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

He's got enough agency to say, oh, thanks for the compliment, I'm not available.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

Correct.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And move on with his day.

[Rory Uphold]

And move on with his day.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

You're not a magician. You're not a hypnotist.

[Rory Uphold]

But also like my assuming that she's not your best friend or that there's something else going there. Like, it is really hard to look into the eyes of a person you loved and trusted and to realize that they did you dirty. It is a lot easier to be like that whore, that bitch, that skink. It feels easier. We were conditioned to do it. So I understand why it happens. I just think we're so much better than that. And we have to get to a point where, like, we don't blame other women for men's behavior.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Okay, Whip Smarties, let me tell you a brand I adore. Adore Me. Whether you're looking for more comfort, more cleavage, or both, Adore Me has you covered. Adore Me offers tons of sizes with new, thoughtfully designed bras, panties, lingerie, shapewear, sleepwear, and swimwear to choose from each month. You can elevate your underwear drawer with high quality sets that won't break the bank. Also, it's so nice to find a silhouette for every occasion with expertly fit bras and shapewear that defy gravity and bold lingerie styles that are just as comfortable as they are sexy. Let me tell you what, I'm a fan of the silhouette for every occasion idea, guys, because sometimes you want something beautiful, colorful, satiny, and sometimes you need something that goes full, incognito nude, simple T shirt bra. You know what I'm talking about. Whether it's bows or lace, or whether it's sleek, undetectable fit and support. Adormi has you covered. And with styles starting as low as $24.95, you can feel confident even if you're on a budget. Head to adore me.com now to shop styles from comfortable to sexy in over 67 sizes.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe, life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair. This is an advertisement for Xolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snore loudly or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on osa.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere. But your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives to change how you do business. Let's create smarter Business. IBM.

[Pets Best Advertisement Voice]

Protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com Policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Do you think part of the reason though that people get so obsessed with like and listen? Whether it's the man behaved and went and cheated and by the way told that other woman some crazy Story, sure, clearly. Or some version of a story that ain't true. Whether it's that or it's like to your point, relationships ending, like staying too long and realizing you shouldn't have. Whatever. Do you think part of the reason that there's so much volatility around endings is because we've. We've been so conditioned to think that a relationship is a measure of our value?

[Rory Uphold]

100%. Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Like. Like, oh, I'm worthy of this.

[Rory Uphold]

Yes.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

So if it goes away, I'm less valuable.

[Rory Uphold]

Do you know what the definition of a spinster is? It's just an unmarried woman in her 30s who makes her own money.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Isn'T it?

[Rory Uphold]

Spinster was a financially independent woman who was not married in her 30s.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Rory Uphold]

But that was seen as a negative. So singledom has always been branded as a negative.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Why?

[Rory Uphold]

Again, threatens the fabric of the patriarchy. Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I mean, nothing threatens it more than a single cat lady. And it's like. Cause a woman. And by the way, it's.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

It.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's never a single dog lady. And it's like when you actually start to think that dogs. Like, if you think about a, like a single dog lady, you immediately picture a woman with a golden retriever. You gender that golden retriever as a boy, as a man. A single cat lady is like a woman who has cats. Cats are feline, like feminine. You know, like, oh, her and the cat, she doesn't need anything. She doesn't think she needs a man. She doesn't need a man. She's good at home with her cats.

[Rory Uphold]

I. I also just like, I don't know why that's such a bad thing.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I don't either.

[Rory Uphold]

And it doesn't mean that you can't like, I guess what the theme that we're bumping up on this conversation is. It's like, it's totally not embarrassing. And it's 100% great. Cool punk rock. To want love and to crave love and to want to be love. I get that. That's great. I'm not trying to say no to that. I think it's like the way that we've positioned relationships as being this ultimate goal, this marker of success.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Rather than a piece, it's the whole piece.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah, exactly. That's why I talk about, well, never shop hungry. But that is a construct. We need people to get married and have kids for our society to be functioning as it is. That there are so many socio political roots to the way that we approach relationships. And when you stop to kind of deconstruct that and look at it as it's related to your own life. You'll start to realize, like, there isn't anything shameful about being single. I mean, that's why we're in a single renaissance right now.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's this sort of outsized slice of pie in the pie chart. And it's like, if we can shift it, things change. Like, this idea that you're supposed to pursue, something that, like, once you have everything on the checklist, you're gonna be happy. Like, I got everything on the checklist, and I was miserable.

[Rory Uphold]

Totally.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I built it, and I went like, oh, but it's hollow. And that was really, really hard and really, really sad. Like, you know, there's an interesting thing about, like, especially going through things in public. Like, God, I envy people who get to get divorced anonymously. But, like, especially with women and the way they're shamed and the way they're judged. Like, you have to. You have to really, like, hold on to the. To the victory part. You have to hold on to the. I chose myself. Like, And. Yes. And that doesn't mean it wasn't absolutely, like, decimating and painful.

[Rory Uphold]

Sure.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And it literally got to a point where I was like, this is, like, my life or my death.

[Rory Uphold]

I think there's something so sad about realizing that the fairy tale you were promised doesn't actually exist. That is.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

It's devastating.

[Rory Uphold]

I mean, that's also what men are going through right now. Well, but also, I think, like, to what you were saying, if you are 35 and, say, single and you feel anxious about that, you are far more likely to settle. You are far more likely to compromise on your boundaries. You are far more likely to end up in a dynamic that doesn't actually suit you. A situationship is a dynamic where one person has a compromised sense of integrity and the other person has a compromised sense of self worth. And we see that a lot because feeling less than feeling single and feeling less than is very scary. That. That circling back around that was what that chapter Monsters is about. I. It was safer to be single and dating this guy who kind of sucked than it was to be single. Yeah. And that's really why, like, I. I wrote the book, is to try and get people to realize, like, you can have the relationship of your dreams, you can have the love that you want, but it starts with you.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

Mm.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well, and starts with not settling 1,000%. That, I think, is a really big thing. And, like, you know, one of the reasons that, aside from your brilliance, I cherish our friendship, like, you through, like, everything that's been very hard in the last couple of years. Like, you've been one of my best friends. That was like, this isn't good enough for you. I remember, like, when I was like, I cried in front of all the lesbians and like, oh, my God. I, like, said how bad things are. And you were like, I also think you're a lesbian. I was like, Rory really just was like, hey, hey, I've got thoughts.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Something.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

I don't know.

[Rory Uphold]

I mean, yeah, you know, when you're. You see enough relationships, you pick on certain. Pick up on certain dynamics. And I was like, it's almost like.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

When your friend is writing a book about how relationships work and studying the dynamics of love. They're really, really smart at it. I think that's why you have some instincts. I think it's why so many people, though, are, like, relating to the book in such an intense way. Like, makes me so proud to be able to brag about you. Because you're right, some people didn't get it. Like, when you first had this concept, a few people were like, huh? And within, what, four days of the book coming out, it was a bestseller in its category. I mean, we were sobbing on.

[Rory Uphold]

I was like, on the airplane.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

You know, it's just. It's really amazing. And I really hope that the folks at home, if they haven't read it, go and get a copy of it. I want to know why. There's, like, there's 7,000 topics, just like you said. Like, I have 400 things I want to say. I'm like, I have 400 things I want to ask you questions about, but I'm also watching the clock. Why do you think, what does it really mean to be your own best friend? Because the phrase can sound like a cliche, but the way you talk about it isn't.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah. So that is a absolute mantra. I think I wrote that three times or four times in the book. It's a personal life mantra. And if you can take one thing away from this episode, be your own best friend. And that is think about your relationship right now and put your best friend in it. Your daughter, your sister, your mother. Are you rooting for them? Are you happy for them? If you are not, why? And then why are you settling for something that you wouldn't want your best friend in? And the same thing goes for when I was really. I go very deep on this in a chapter called Spells. But when I was really deep into unwinding my beliefs because I do think, like, the words. Words are like spells, and you have to be very careful in the way that you cast them. And the way that most of us talk to ourselves. We would never let anyone else talk to our best friends like that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

No.

[Rory Uphold]

Some of the things that I have been the biggest monster to me out of anyone in my love life. The person that has hurt me the most is me, full stop. And I think that, like, sometimes it helps to put another person in your shoes and someone that you deeply care about.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

Because if you would never let somebody speak to them that way or treat them that way, why do you do that to yourself?

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

That's an incredibly illuminating exercise. And you're right. Like, a very excellent takeaway for people. You also talk about a relationship graveyard.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And like, why you actually have to have one or make one.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Why? Why?

[Rory Uphold]

Well, this idea that they always come back is a very popular trope in horror movies and also in love and dating. And that is not a flex. That's a reflection of the. This person's selfishness and their opinions of your weak boundaries. They come back because they think they can come back and that you'll take them. You gotta prove them wrong.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Keep em in the graveyard.

[Rory Uphold]

Keep em in the graveyard. And this is not like a casual thing. This is for, like, situationships. This is for real periods. At the end of sentences, you screenshot what you need, what you want to keep. Then you delete the thread. You change their name to three tombstone emojis. And the more people get added, then you literally have no idea who they are. You cannot contact them. If they hit you up, you have no idea which person in the graveyard they are.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Genius.

[Rory Uphold]

They're gone.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Genius.

[Rory Uphold]

Cause when you're dead, you're dead.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

When you're dead to me. Honey, you're Cecilia.

[Rory Uphold]

I was like, you are not yet. There's no haunting me. No, thank you.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

No, thank you. I think being able to put down the ghosts.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Is a big deal.

[Rory Uphold]

Yeah.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

That's. That's a big one.

[Rory Uphold]

It is a big one. And ghosting is like a true epidemic. And I obviously have a whole chapter on that. I mean, I was ghosted by the guy who got me pregnant. So. Yeah. That's when we talk about hurtful and embarrassing things. I've truly been through it. But I think if you are ghosted, you have to see that as a blessing because ultimately, communication is the bedrock of all great relationships. And if you have somebody that can't simply have an uncomfortable conversation, that's not. That's not a good foundation to build a life on.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

And by the way, to your point, I think it's really important to take that a step further. Like, when I've thought about some of those dynamics or things that have been hurtful or ways I've hurt myself or ways people have hurt me or ways I've hurt people, it's like when you're not ready or they're not ready to show up in their full self, like they're going through something, you might be going through something, they don't deserve you, you don't deserve them. Whatever. It's. What you don't want is to rush a process for you or someone else. It's gonna be a mess. But what I like about your book and the way you talk about this stuff and the way you're shifting conversations for women in particular is you're like. You're defanging it a little bit and saying, like, you're good. Move on. Rejection is protection. Oh, 1000 on to the next.

[Rory Uphold]

And I think, like, the biggest thing is rejection is protection. But also be very, very mindful of the stories that we write.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Rory Uphold]

Because there are the horrors that happen to you, and there are the horrors that happen inside of you. And a lot of times the call is coming from inside the house. And it's like, you know, we could both be in the same. The same thing could happen to both of us, and we could walk away with two totally different stories, completely different experiences. And mine could be so traumatizing, and you could never think about it again. And I think that's what's so important to me. And yes, I do write for women. I do speak to women. If men read the book. I love that, and that's amazing. But I really do care about women, and that's why I get up and make content and write and do things just because I am a woman. And I feel like there's a lot of trauma that comes from just simply existing in a world that was not meant for you.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Oh, honey, you know I agree with that.

[Rory Uphold]

I know.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Well, clearly, all of our listeners need to pick up their copy of A final Girl's Guide to the Horror of Dating. You can get it at your local bookshop. You can order them online. Rory, before I let you go, I want to know what your work in progress is.

[Rory Uphold]

I have a couple things, and they are real. Left turn. Okay, one, I really want to dial in on melasma and experiment. I'm experimenting with my own body. I'm injecting some things currently to see about that relationship and experimenting with topicals and internal stuff. So that is a work in progress and not something I can speak on yet. But I'm very, very curious about that.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Because it relates to your liver and.

[Rory Uphold]

Your autoimmune because I have melasma and I care so much about skin and wellness and all of that. And so that is a definite, definite work in progress. And then I am also always I've been on low dose naltrexone for my CFS me CFS since 2018 and I recently got off of it because I started microdosing to GLP1 and so that is another work in progress. I feel like my two works in progress are one is more vanity health related and the other one is just strictly health and wellness related and tbd.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Wow, look at you. You hack the chronic fatigue. I'm gonna be so thrilled about it.

[Rory Uphold]

Why have you Next podcast, Next podcast.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Next podcast we'll get into Rory's health and wellness. I mean but obviously you need the book and to be following her skin recommendations. I've told you I need a full.

[Rory Uphold]

List to go home with. We were supposed to do that the other night.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

I know. I love you. Thank you for coming today.

[Rory Uphold]

Thank you for having us.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

Thank you for writing this book for us. We really needed it. Why put dangerous chemicals on your skin when flowers are not only safer, but actually more effective? Foreo Organics uses wild arctic botanicals like arnica and sea buckthorn. These plants survive in some of the harshest climates on earth and have been shown to reduce wrinkles, boost collagen and deeply hydrate without putting your health at risk. It's not about fighting aging. It's about treating your skin with the same attention and care you give everything else in your life. So visit froyaorganics.com today and get 40% off. That's Froya F R O Y A.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

Organics.Com Xolair Omalizumab is proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Xolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people 1 year of age and older. To reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods while taking Xolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Xolair. Xolair may cause a severe life threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you have ever had anaphylaxis get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Xolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Xolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see xolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Xolair this is an advertisement for Xolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at. Don't sleep on osa.com. this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.

[Sophia (Podcast Host)]

This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on what your kids are spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk [e-mail] iheart people, don't.

[Rory Uphold]

Listen to radio ads while you're driving or making a sandwich.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

Your subconscious pays full attention, so relax.

[Rory Uphold]

Let it take over. Sunday makes yard care simple with a custom plan based on your soil, climate and yard size.

[IBM Advertisement Voice]

No pesticides, no harsh stuff.

[Xolair Advertisement Voice]

20% off this holiday Sunday plans are 20% off.

[Rory Uphold]

Buy today and lock in your spring subscription. Sunday A Smarter, Healthier Yard this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.