Gen Z Is Making Their Parents Talk to Their Bosses

Summary

Podcast Summary: Work with Erika Ayers Badan

Episode: Gen Z Is Making Their Parents Talk to Their Bosses
Release Date: September 8, 2025
Host: Erika Ayers Badan
Guests: Jessica Rose, Jack Fisher, Nadja Sayej, others

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Overview

In this lively episode, Erika Ayers Badan dives into the shifting dynamics of work and workplace culture—especially how Gen Z's relationships with their parents are impacting the professional world. Through a blend of real-life anecdotes, commentary on viral news, and conversations with guests from diverse backgrounds (finance and media), Erika delivers an unfiltered, insightful, and often humorous look at leadership, generational change, resilience, and building a meaningful career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Travel, Planning, and Lessons on Conscious Preparation

[00:10–04:55]

• Midwest Business Travel Mishaps: Erika and Jessica Rose comically break down the mishaps of booking a business trip to Minneapolis, highlighting the complexity of travel logistics, time zones, and the lack of direct flights.
  • Erika shows the importance of backward planning for business obligations: “You got to do the work backwards. Plan.” (04:03, Erika)
• Teachings for New Team Members:
  • “It's not lashing. It's a lesson in Midwest travel, which is a good life lesson for anybody in business. It takes a little bit longer, and not so many options.” (04:40, Erika)
  • Jessica admits her inexperience with Midwest travel, eliciting laughter and empathy.

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2. Work Like a Girl / AI Like a Girl Takeaways

[06:01–08:00]

• Event Recap & AI Cautions: Erika summarizes key lessons from the "Work Like a Girl, AI Like a Girl" event:
  • Don’t commingle work and personal data if the company pays for your AI tool.
  • Notably, people are using AI to script difficult personal workplace conversations.
  • Erika observes an ongoing fear of AI adoption among women—which risks them falling behind. Her call: just start and try things to build fluency.

"The more women can just start and try something and do something, the more adept and fluent you get." (07:39, Erika)

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3. Learning from Failure at Axon

[08:01–09:52]

• The Reality Behind Successful Companies:
  • Axon's founding stories highlight the omnipresence of near-failure—even the most successful companies nearly go bankrupt, overthink small purchases, and face repeated setbacks.
  • Takeaway: positivity, optimism, and not giving up are crucial at every career stage.

"Not giving up is a great skill in life, obviously, but it's also a really, really important skill if you have a dream at work." (09:07, Erika)

• Positivity as a Leadership Skill: "Positivity and optimism, even in the face of incredible stress, is the single greatest thing that a leader can bring to the table." (09:41, Erika)

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4. Viral Business Story: CEO Revenge & The Door That Opens

[09:53–13:46]

• IHOP CEO’s Viral Revenge: Former Applebee’s exec tells how—after being denied a deserved promotion—she became the CEO of IHOP and ended up acquiring Applebee’s, dismissing the former CEO with his own words.
  • Erika champions: Always leave on good terms—you never know who you'll meet again in business.
  • Message: When one door closes, another opens—but don’t burn bridges.

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5. Current Events: Brian Chesky on Innovation and the Future

[13:47–14:37] with extended reflection

• Key Quote from Brian Chesky, Airbnb CEO:

  “Always be the first to adopt a new platform, never be the last. ... The future belongs to whoever wants to go there first.” (13:52, Brian Chesky)

• Erika’s Analogy:
  • The companies that innovate first (Barstool, Microsoft, Yahoo) grow fastest.
  • But it’s hardest for large companies to pivot away from their core.
  • Get ahead—“skate to where the puck is going.”

“The future waits for no one. It's not beholden to anyone, and it's granted to the people who get there first.” (14:34, Erika)

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6. The Headline Topic: Gen Z, Parental Involvement, and Workplace Resilience

[14:40–23:40]

• Wild New Statistic: Nearly half of Gen Z have their parents talk to their bosses; three in four took their parents to job interviews.
  • Parents help with reviews, assignments—even lunch-packing.
• Erika’s Reaction:
  • Cites an anecdote about interviewing a candidate who wanted his wife involved in the hiring process.
  • Reflects on how parents’ over-involvement and constant tracking removes discomfort and independence from kids, delaying critical life skills.

“If someone was like, I need you to talk to my mom about my performance review, I would be like, your performance review is over. I don’t think you should work here.” (16:47, Erika)

• Discussion on Parenting Trends:
  • Millennials were tough-parented; many turned to ‘gentle parenting.’
  • Predicts Gen Z may react with more structure for their own kids.

"Things that people used to struggle with as little kids, they now struggle with as big kids and things that big kids used to struggle with, you know, or adults used to do ... It's all getting pushed uphill." (21:23, Erika)

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7. Guest Segment: Jack Fisher on Finance, Transparency & Challenging Authority

[24:11–34:07]

• Building Trust in Teams:

  “The greatest lesson I've learned is how important it is to build trust with the teams, the individuals that you're working with...” (24:17, Jack Fisher)

• Finance as Company Backbone:
  • Erika and Jack agree FP&A is essential for operational success, seeing around corners, and driving company value—not just “bean counting.”
• Should Junior Execs Challenge Senior Leadership?

  “If you're not challenging assumptions, you're kind of fucked.” (29:01, Jack Fisher)

  • Stress on presenting both problems and solutions, and tailoring communication style to your audience.
• Transparency in Company Finances:
  • Share broad metrics and progress—but not all the “nitty gritty.”
  • Surprised how little financial literacy (and curiosity) there is at all levels.

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8. Guest Segment: Nadja Sayej—Journalism, Gig Economy & Resilience

[34:41–59:50]

• About Nadja:
  • Longtime journalist, agency founder, celebrity interviewer; based in NYC but with international experience.
• State of Modern Journalism:
  • Decline in editorial integrity, rise of “pay for play,” lack of budgets for fact-checking and real reporting.
  • PR exerts more control than ever; journalists are now “minions.”

“The shift of power is like, we are just, you know, these small little minions, you know…” (37:02, Nadja Sayej)

• Podcasts as Journalism’s Bright Future:
  • “People want to tune into conversations...it’s like you’re in somebody’s living room at a party, overhearing a conversation.” (38:55, Nadja Sayej)
• Navigating the Gig Economy:
  • Gig workers are highly disposable—no mistakes allowed.
  • Self-investment and constant self-promotion are critical.

"There’s no investment in people who are working in the gig economy. So you have to invest in yourself." (44:47, Nadja Sayej)

• Advice for Creatives:
  1. Be objective—“Channel your inner Aquarius” for non-emotional decisions.
  2. Stay inspired—let inspiration fuel your work and network.
  3. Exceed deadlines—deliver early, show respect, gain reliability.

"If you mess up in one instance with the wrong person, you may never be used by that company ever again. Because you're just a gig person ... You have to invest in yourself." (43:12/44:41, Nadja Sayej)

• Handling Rejection: Resilience is key; treat rejection as routine and persist anyway.

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9. Industry & Culture: Celebrity, Women, and the Machine

[51:21–54:48]

• Book Recommendations and Musings: Erika recommends Girl on Girl—a cultural history on women in media—and Nadja shares how her books explore “female gaze” in celebrity photography.
• On Beauty Standards & Conformity: Discussion of pressures, double standards, and how the machine of celebrity and journalism rewards conformity over individuality or strength, especially for women.

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10. The Strategery Phrase: “Let’s Take It Offline”

[59:50–end]

• Meaning and Use:
  • Used to move complex or tricky topics out of the main meeting for efficiency.
  • Erika finds it a bit cheesy but necessary.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The future belongs to whoever wants to go there first." (13:52, Brian Chesky, Airbnb CEO)
• "It's not lashing. It's a lesson in Midwest travel, which is a good life lesson for anybody in business." (04:40, Erika Ayers Badan)
• "Not giving up is a great skill in life, obviously, but it's also a really, really important skill if you have a dream at work." (09:07, Erika)
• “[If your company pays for your AI,] be careful about how many personal questions you put in there.” (06:50, Erika)
• “If someone was like, I need you to talk to my mom about my performance review, I would be like, your performance review is over.” (16:47, Erika)
• "If you're not challenging assumptions, you're kind of fucked." (29:01, Jack Fisher)
• "The more women can just start and try something and do something, the more adept and fluent you get." (07:39, Erika)
• "There’s no investment in people who are working in the gig economy. So you have to invest in yourself." (44:47, Nadja Sayej)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:10–04:55 Midwest travel mishap story & business planning lessons
• 06:01–08:00 Takeaways from Work Like a Girl / AI Like a Girl event
• 08:01–09:52 Learning from Axon: company failures and the value of optimism
• 09:53–13:46 Viral story: IHOP CEO's revenge and business bridges
• 13:47–14:37 Brian Chesky on futureproofing and innovation
• 14:40–23:40 Gen Z and parent involvement in the workplace; resilience, comfort, and parenting cycles
• 24:11–34:07 Interview with Jack Fisher: finance, transparency, and challenging executives
• 34:41–59:50 Interview with Nadja Sayej: journalism, gig economy, celebrity culture, advice for creatives
• 59:50–end "Let’s take it offline" strategery; episode wrap

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Tone & Style

• Authentic, candid, slightly irreverent.
• Erika mixes humor, real talk, and hands-on advice.
• Guests are encouraged to be honest, direct, and unvarnished—surviving and thriving in modern creative and business roles.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a sharp, funny, and sometimes sobering look at how the boundaries of work, ambition, family, and culture are rapidly changing—in ways both exhilarating and alarming. Erika and her guests leave listeners with practical advice: be proactive, be unafraid to challenge assumptions, stay positive in the face of adversity, and, above all, invest in yourself. Whether navigating a flight to Minneapolis, surviving the gig economy, or setting boundaries with family in your career, the message is loud and clear: the workplace is evolving, and resilience, adaptability, and optimism are your sharpest tools.

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Transcript

[A]

Lemonade?

[B]

No, we're gonna. We're. I'm calling the audible on this. So. Welcome to the work podcast, Jessica Rose. Jessica Rose and I are gonna book a flight to Minneapolis. I'm gonna. This is a big teaching moment. So the salespeople signed me up to go to Minneapolis in a couple weeks, which is awesome. I've been begging to go see customers. I'm so excited to go see a customer. But I gave Jessic the Erica special, which is like, maybe you could check what time the meeting is just to be sure I can get into Minneapolis on time. Jessica Rose is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. So then today I'm like, all right. No, for real, Jessica Rose, how am I gonna get to Minneapolis in time for the meeting, which is in the morning. It's at 10:30am and Jessica Rose is new to the. New to the Midwest travel game. Are you new to the Midwest? You're new to the Midwest travel game. Okay. Jessica Rose is new to the Midwest travel. There's an hour time change, and there's not so many flights. It's not like you're flying to California, where there's a flight every 40 minutes. And then Jessica Rose drops the bomb on me on the walk over here that they. That I need to be there an hour before the meeting. So Jessica Rose, let's look up the earliest flight from New York City to.

[C]

I do have them.

[B]

Minneapolis is the capital.

[C]

I have them.

[B]

Okay, what's the earliest?

[C]

So the earliest that I have found is a 6:05 to 805.

[B]

Okay, so let's just play that through. 605 out of what?

[C]

Out of LGI.

[B]

Okay, so 6:05 out of LaGuardia means that Erica is waking up at what time? Probably three. That's in the. Yeah, that hurts. Versus, like, if we had a noon spot. What's the next flight? What are the flights after the 6am.

[C]

So we have a 6:15 to 8:20. There's a 6:50 to 9am There's 7:45 to 9:41.

[B]

Okay, but those aren't gonna work.

[D]

What time's the meeting?

[B]

10:30. And I have to be there at 9:30. Yeah. So then do we know how far next up?

[C]

Oh, no, no, no. You have to be there at 10:30. Like, 10:30 is an hour before 10:30 is the actual.

[B]

Oh, well, do we know how far the company is from the airport?

[C]

We'll have to route that.

[B]

Let's do it right now. Jessica Rose. Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, so Then how far is the company from the airport?

[C]

Let me see. Where the actual location. It's 2501 Hudson Road.

[D]

2501 Hudson Maplewood, Minneapolis. Maplewood, Minneapolis. All right.

[C]

From airport. From msp.

[D]

Minneapolis Airport. Right.

[B]

Do you know a famous singer who's from Minneapolis?

[C]

Feels like a trick question. I don't know.

[B]

No, it's a real question.

[C]

I have no idea.

[B]

Come on, Jessica.

[C]

I'm really bad with. I'm so bad with stuff like that. I like, don't pay attention to stuff like that in life.

[D]

Oh, he is.

[B]

Yes. Oh, wow.

[C]

I don't know things.

[B]

Come on, you guys.

[C]

I really don't.

[B]

Sorry. Well, how far is it from the airport?

[D]

It is 24 minute car ride.

[B]

Jessica Rose. All right, so.

[D]

So if you gotta be there by.

[B]

10:30, if I get that 9:41, I could make it. But if it's at all late, I'm screwed. Screwed. Screwed. So it looks like Erica is getting up in the fours. Oh, no.

[D]

Oh, no. What about if you do you.

[C]

There's an event the night before.

[B]

Ooh, here.

[D]

No, that's because I was gonna say, what can you fly in the night before?

[A]

All right.

[B]

This is a risky endeavor. I would try to push that meeting back if I will. I'll message Claire. But if it can't happen, it's customer, so it can't happen. Can't happen. But real time, you got to do the work backwards. Plan.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I have to be in New.

[C]

York City the night before for this.

[B]

All right, Jessica Rose, what is the learning lesson here?

[C]

Well, okay, there's no defense in my brain because that's so far out. That's like why I tackle it so far out. Because I'm like, okay, then I can problem solve, like now.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah, we should start the problem solving, like, now. Now. Okay. All right. That's today's hold. Open. Does that work for you, Jessica Rose?

[A]

It's fine.

[C]

I don't take my lashing.

[B]

It's not lashing. It's a lesson in Midwest travel, which is a good life lesson for anybody in business. It takes a little bit longer.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And not so many options.

[D]

Not at all.

[B]

Yeah, right?

[D]

Not at all.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. I actually literally, truly have never anywhere in the Midwest.

[B]

You've never been to Chicago?

[C]

No.

[B]

What?

[C]

I've literally gone to like, Shafar. I've gone to la. I've gone to like Vegas.

[B]

I've gone to Texas.

[D]

Like, Chicago is great.

[A]

You gotta go to Chicago.

[B]

So is Minneapolis.

[C]

And then everywhere in the, like, I've done this. I've done the Eastern Coast.

[B]

You're like just a flyover.

[F]

Well, I find.

[B]

Not me, Jessica Rose. I'm gonna be there at 6am.

[C]

And then.

[B]

Don't you have to go to, like.

[C]

Kansas at some point next year?

[B]

Yes, I'm going to Kansas in January. So we'll do. Why don't we do that exercise next?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Delta flies to Kansas somewhat more periodically.

[C]

Good to know.

[B]

Thank you, Jessica Rose. Don't be sorry. Good lesson. We're learning. All right, that's great. Work, work, work, work, work. Now work. All right, so welcome back to work. This is our podcast. We were off last week for Labor Day, which really would have been an opportune day to have a work podcast. But it was very gorgeous out, and I hardly doubt that anyone was listening to work related material on Monday. I had an awesome week last week. We had Work Like a Girl AI Like a Girl at the Axon offices in. It was awesome. Meg Ryan crushed it all. The advisory board crushed it. There were so many women there. Oddly, we had this panel that could have gone on forever. Like, it was so engaging. It was so interesting. If you're listening to this, I'll give you the big upshot. One is that if your company pays for your AI, have your own separate AI, so don't commingle. I pay for my own AI, so I commingle. I ask it all my random personal shit and I ask it work questions interchange. But if your company owns or is funding your AI, be careful about how many personal questions you put in there. That was my first biggest takeaway. My second biggest takeaway is the observation of how many people are using their agents to navigate personal conversations. So they're putting in the attributes of a person who they're having challenges with and the age and a little bit of background about that person and then about themselves as well, and asking how to resolve conflict, which I thought was really interesting. I thought that was a great use of AI. That was my second biggest takeaway. Third biggest takeaway is that there's still a lot of fear around it and that women are pretty dramatically falling behind in terms of their use of AI. And I think one of the biggest things is the more women can just start and try something and do something, the more adept and fluent that you get. And those were my biggest takeaways from the Work Like A Girl event. So our AI Like a Girl event. But it was awesome. We have a great network in Boston. It's. This thing is happening. I thought it looked Great. I just, like. It was very.

[D]

I wanted to be there.

[B]

I got fomo. It looked so good. And then the Axon offices in Boston were epic. The Axon board meeting, as always, is super interesting. So, like Axon, I would describe it as really, really, really, really smart, technically, very savvy people. There's like some magic and mystery and chaos and curiosity to the company. And then there is this mission, which is so powering and empowering to people, which is around, you know, less lethal weaponry. The idea of servicing law enforcement, the ability to help save lives and fight crime with technology. It's, like, so present and powerful. The other thing that was so cool, they did this Founders Day, what they called it, a Founders Day panel, which was the three or four founders from Axon telling stories of the early days. And they were talking about failure really, more than anything else, and how you look at a company like Axon now and you look at the stock and you see how much the stocks increased in the last year. I think it went from 100 to $800, roughly. And you're like, oh, God, these guys have had it figured out forever. These people are so savvy. They've got it all figured out. They know what they're doing, which is true. But it was also so refreshing to go back to how many times they were almost bankrupt and how many times they gave up and. Or almost gave up and how many. You know, every purchase that they scrutinize, like, one guy was telling a story about had a trade show, and he bought a plant to kind of spruce up what the trade show booth looked like. And, you know, someone else in the founding team was like, what are you doing? Like, we don't have any money to spend on a plant. So I thought that was super, super inspiring. And I think it's a really great thing to remember that even companies now which look so big and so successful, they all began somewhere. And that beginning of something can be so hard and so challenging, fraught with so many minutes and moments where you want to give up. And not giving up is a great skill in life, obviously, but it's also a really, really important skill if you have a dream at work. So even in your own personal journey, if you're thinking about how you progress your career and how you advance in your role or how you move up in your organization, or you're thinking about how can you make something happen for a company, being positive, being optimistic, and not giving up is the greatest skill that there is. So I really loved that. I was super inspired leaving Axon. I always am. I'm always like, gosh, it's like amazing. The problems that they're solving are such frontier problems. Sometimes I get frustrated at Food52 because in large part we're solving problems that have been solved better by people a long time ago. And we're like, we don't have the foundation to be able to solve things easily or effectively. And that's a huge, huge challenge. But remembering, I think, how to be optimistic is something that I think is so, so important. We brought a woman into our team, Alicia. She's our chief commercial officer, and she's like, great at the positivity. And I was reading more after I was leaving Axon about how positivity and optimism, even in the face of incredible stress, is the single greatest thing that a leader can bring to the table. And I really love that. So that is my. That's my opening thoughts for today. Oh, the IHOPs here. All right, we're starting current events. This was traveling all around social. It actually was viral. You very rarely see business clips become viral. But this is the story of the former president of Applebee's, who is the current CEO of ihop. And this lady's on a podcast and she's like, hey, I was promised the CEO gig at Applebee's. And I worked my ass off and I did everything that was required. I was crushing it. And I went to the CEO and was like, hey, I'm ready. I'm ready for the next big thing. Maybe it wasn't CEO, but it was a big job. And this then CEO of Applebee's was basically like taking nothing done, like, forget it, no chance, not happening. And so she was like, huh? Because you had committed to me that if I met all these objectives and I achieved all these outcomes that I would have a chance to at something bigger. And the guy just was like, no, I'm not giving that to you. You're not going to get it. And so she went and took a job as the CEO of ihop. She's super talented. She obviously understands quick serve restaurants. She's clearly great at what she does in the space. And lo and behold, there became the opportunity to buy Applebee's, which as a natural semi spiteful woman, she did probably made good business sense as well. And she tells the story of the call she made to the Applebee's CEO using the same language he gave her, which is take nothing done, you're not needed. I'll get this from here. So that was a Great viral business story. A great, great example of when one door shuts, another door opens. And also to be good to people in business, because you never know when they're going to show up again. So our second current events topic is an interview with Brian Chatzky from Airbnb, the Airbnb CEO at, for. @ the Fortune Global Forum. And he's talking about how the future waits for no.

[E]

One. Every CEO here is whatever you want to call you, a disruptor. Whatever you want is or was at some time a disruptor. I have a culture internally, which is to say, always be the first to adopt a new platform, never be the last. The people that are the last to adopt a new platform, there's no room on the platform for you. We were pretty late to launch an iPad app. We didn't do it for a couple of years. The team had all these reasons why we had to be focused. And eventually we got the iPad app out, but then we also developed a watch app and a TV app for Apple tv. And we were one of the launch partners and a team of turns. Like, why should we spend all of our development resources on these two applications that so few people are using? We have tens of millions of people over here using a website or using a phone. Why aren't we developing all our resources there? And if you're focused on today, you're going to focus on your core. The good news is that even, like, the future belongs to nobody. The future belongs to whoever wants to go there.

[B]

First. That's. I love that. I think it's totally true. Like, if you look at the success of at least in my career time, you know, you look at the early success of Microsoft or the early success of Yahoo, or the early success of aol, or you even look at the early success of Barstool Sports. Like, we got to podcasting first at Barstool, and as a result, we grew disproportionately fast. And I think that's true in general for companies. And I think it's a hard decision for companies to make because exactly as Brian says in this quote, like, you're like, hey, we're not doing enough for all the hundreds of millions or tens of millions or thousands of people we have over here. Why are we spinning up our resources on something that's unproven? And I think it's a good reminder to companies to continue to skate not just to where the puck is going, but where you think the puck is going to go after that, and to really be thinking about the future. Because this is where startups and young companies and entrepreneurs have a natural advantage is they're not encumbered by having so many big users over here. They're only thinking about the place the world is going, and it's very, very hard for big companies. Speaking back to the Axon of it all, like Axon is incubating all of these new platforms, they're incubating new technology, they're thinking about new customer sets, assets. It's very, very, very hard to pull itself away from its core customer set and the core business as it's set today. And this is. It's a little bit the innovator's dilemma, but it's a good reminder, really, to anyone around. It's a good reminder to anyone whether you're running a company, whether you have a good job, whether you want the next job. Like, get to where the future is. The future waits for no one. It's not beholden to anyone, and it's granted to the people who get there first. I think that's a great message. Our last current event topic is from Instagram, where we saw a stat that says nearly half of gen zers have their mom regularly talk to their boss. So can you zoom on this a little bit? Sarth. All right, so in this case, gen zers are saying that their parents are involved in certain job responsibilities all the time. Reviewing performance reviews, directly communicating with their manager, packing their lunch, helping to complete work assignments, and even going to the workplace. In the often category, it is reviewing performance reviews. This is crazy. I have to be honest. I interviewed someone when I was at Barstool, this is probably eight years ago, and it was for an engineering position. And this person was from a big established sports league. And he was like, hey, before I take this job, I'd really like you to meet my wife. And I was kind of like, head scratching. Of like, all right, so now I gotta sell this guy to, like, come do product and engineering and I have to sell his wife. Like, this is crazy. And I actually thought, you know, part of me was like, wow, that's really respectful in a relationship that you want your partner to be, you know, have a very active seat at the table and looking at a job. And as a hiring manager, I thought it was insane where I'm like, I don't understand this. I think I probably brought some bias on. Why do I need to sell your wife that you should be having this job? I think if someone was like, I need you to talk to my mom about my performance review, I would be like, your performance review is over. I don't think you should work here. But I do think this is happening. So my point is not just Gen Z, the person I'm talking about is probably an older millennial at this point. But I do think this thing is happening where people are becoming less and less resilient. We've talked about that. I do think this thing is happening where parents are becoming over and over more over and overbearing. Like they're so actively involved in everything. Like I was looking, I was laughing this weekend where my son had a football game and there's two professional photographers at the football scrimmage. So it's not even a game. This is freshman year football in August and there are two professional photographers taking hundreds and hundreds of photos. Like I played sports until like my last day of college. I don't, I never had a professional photographer anywhere near the field. And it's just, I think it shows. Like we're just obsessed with our children. You're obsessed with capturing every moment. We're taking a very, very active role in everything. You can track when your kid's in an Uber. You can see where your kid is all the time. I was like, oh my God, if my parents could have tracked where I was all the time, I would have been fucked. And now like kids can't even get away with anything. Cause your parents always know where you are. Like this defiance and disobedience and also not having everything captured all the time and not having your mom or your parent be there every moment, I think is becoming pretty rare. And I think it's interesting and I think it is going to spill over to how people enter the workplace and also their expectation of the role their parent is going to have in the.

[D]

Workplace. Do you think it is more of an over parenting issue or do you think it is Gen Z? Or maybe, I guess, yeah, Gen Z not having the capability of standing up for them, like not having the.

[B]

Confidence. I don't think it's all the parents. I think that Gen Z isn't confident because, well, that's a gross generalization. I think Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Gen Alpha will have more of a problem than Gen Z. And whatever Gen comes after Gen Alpha will have a bigger problem than them that kids are spending so much time on their screens and this isn't a judgment. Like it's true in my household too. Kids are spending so much time on their screens, they're not spending any time being uncomfortable. They are never lost, they're never left Alone there is always. And the screen is so magnificently addictive that they are never uncomfortable. And then when they're forced to be uncomfortable, I see this, like, I hate this about myself as a parent is like, the minute your kid's uncomfortable, you're like, ooh, can I help? What can I do? Can I make it better? So I don't know. I think they don't know different. And they're going to learn that discomfort very much later than, let's say I learned it, or maybe you all learned it, or the people after you. Like, it's becoming later and later kids are leaving home. Later and later they're independent. Later and later they're so. They're struggling. Things that people used to struggle with as little kids, they now struggle with as big kids and things that big kids used to struggle with, you know, or adults used to do. You know what I mean? It's all getting pushed uphill. And then I think the other piece of it is that everything is recorded. So it's also hard to struggle because you have no anonymity to.

[D]

Struggle. This is a wild stat, though. Three in four Gen Zers took their parents to.

[B]

Interviews. I mean, that's just.

[C]

Wrong. But I'm curious, like, do you think that. Because I know for millennials, we kind of, our reaction to how we were parented was like, we were parented harder. You know what I mean? Like, we had, like, stricter, like, harder parents just in general. Like, my, my, you know, like, I had really strict.

[B]

Parents.

[C]

Okay. And I knew a lot of people that have really strict parents. And I think the reaction of millennials has been to do the opposite, which is where you get, like, the gentle parenting of it all. Do you think that Gen Z, when they start having children, will have, like, the reaction? Well, I didn't have enough structure in my life. Now I'm going to be, like, really strict, probably. I think it all comes in waves.

[B]

Personally. Yeah, I don't disagree with that at.

[D]

All. That's, that's how I see it. Like, if whenever, in the future, if I ever have kids, I'm like thinking about now seeing all of this, like, making notes to myself, like, oh, like, what would be an ideal thing to do for, like a two year old, like, to build structure in their life so they, when they're like seven or eight, they're confident enough to.

[B]

Be. Yeah, to go do.

[D]

Things. To go do things, but also be okay. Being uncomfortable and finding themselves in, like, their actual desires and not just being locked behind a.

[B]

Screen. So I think it's hard. I think the other piece of it is there's a little bit of like the prevailing age. Like I'm old enough where I didn't grow up with screens, period. So but yet I, yet my let my children use screens all the time and I hate myself for it. But so I think it's a little bit of the, it's hard to double edged sword. It's. You can't hide technology, you can't repress technology. You know, it's so.

[C]

Pervasive.

[B]

So. All right, so we're starting with Jack. Okay.

[D]

Jack. All.

[B]

Right. Just side note, I always call Jack Jack o'.

[A]

Brien. It's because of Peter, I now realize, because it was because of Peter. I saw Peter's name pop up and I was like, I was like, okay, this is where she got o' Brien.

[B]

From. All right, so we have Jack Fisher. Jack Fisher, welcome to the to the Work podcast. What is the greatest lesson you've learned at.

[A]

Work? Well, thank you for having me.

[B]

On. Thank you for being here.

[A]

Jack. The greatest lesson I've learned is how important it is to build trust with the teams, the individuals that you're working with, not only on your team, but across the.

[B]

Company. Okay, and how do you do.

[A]

That? First is, in my experience, listening for a while before you come in, before you have any opinions, anything you want to change. Really spend time understanding what they do, what problems they face, what they see as success and what they want to achieve. And over time work with them to help achieve those goals. And then, you know, when you get the feet, you know you're footing under, you start to work with them, push a little bit more and push a bit more. And that push becomes easier when that trust is already.

[B]

Built. That's smart. I like that. Okay, so you're an FP and a person. Did you always know you wanted to be a finance guy? Are you a finance guy? Would you call yourself, I'm a finance guy. Like you're at a bar on Friday night. Are you like, I work in finance. What do you.

[A]

Say? Yeah, I tell people I am in.

[B]

Finance.

[A]

Okay. I like to think I'm more than that. I like to.

[B]

Think. I.

[A]

Agree. I like to think finance is more than just.

[B]

Finance. I.

[A]

Agree. I think it is a very important tool for a company. For me, the way that I got into finance, I originally was an investment banker. I didn't really know what else. It was quickly found out I did not like that.

[B]

Life. How.

[A]

Come? I felt like a lot of the work that you did was transactional in nature, and I really wanted to help a company build, growing. And, you know, I met somebody who did FP and A finance and explained how important it is to the business and whether you wanted to do finance in your career later on or whatever you wanted to do. It's a great foundational skill to have. I agree with that, and that's why I pursued.

[B]

It.

[A]

Great. And I think it's been great so.

[B]

Far. It has. You're doing a great.

[A]

Job. Thank.

[B]

You. And so when you're at a bar and someone's like, oh, hey, Jack, what do you do? Do people ask that.

[A]

Anymore?

[B]

Yes. Do millennials care what other millennials.

[D]

Do?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay. And you get the.

[C]

Look.

[A]

Yeah. You're in.

[B]

Finance. Oh, you get the.

[D]

Look.

[B]

Yeah. You're in finance in a good way or a bad.

[A]

Way? I think it's in a. It's not as interesting as a profession.

[B]

Potentially. That's.

[C]

Terrible. It's.

[B]

Okay. I mean, if you're wearing a vest and, like, a blue checkered shirt, you don't have to.

[A]

Ask. I don't like that at the.

[B]

Bottom. Yeah, I know. I agree with that. I like that about you. Okay. I think FP&A is an incredible job. It is the backbone of a company. Like, when I look at a lot of our problems as a company, I'm like, if we had tighter FP and a stronger FP and A in the business, we would have. And accounting, but we would have seen around corners. We didn't see around. So I agree with that. I don't think you're going to be a finance guy forever, though. I think you're going to move into ops and strategy and you'll do other things, and then I think that's great for.

[C]

You.

[B]

Yeah. Do you want to do.

[A]

That? That would be great. Yeah. And I think when you're also at a smaller business, a startup, a lot more of those other opportunities sneak into that FP and A finance side of the.

[B]

Business. I.

[A]

Agree. Which is a great.

[B]

Experience. You can't be good at FP&A unless you understand the dynamics of the business. That's what makes it so.

[A]

Strong. And understanding your leadership team as well, what they want to see and help them make the decisions to drive the company.

[B]

Forward. I love that. All right, so I guess Jack and I are having generational knowledge. Are you excited.

[A]

Jack? I love generational.

[B]

Knowledge. I think, you see, you're an old soul, so it's funny to ask you questions. All right, here's today's topic for Jack. Should junior executives, Junior executives. Like, would you be insulted if I called you a junior executive? I would be insulted if you called me. If I was Jack Fisher and I was like, you're a junior executive. Don't care. You don't.

[C]

Care. All.

[B]

Right. Lots of Jessica Roast. All right.

[A]

Should. I didn't know junior executives.

[B]

Exist. What is a junior.

[D]

Executive? I have no.

[B]

Idea. It's like an executive with training wheels. Anyways, do you think FP and a team or junior executives should challenge executive assumptions more aggressively, even if it creates.

[A]

Friction? I think it's important. This is the job of an FP and a.

[B]

Individual. You're not challenging assumptions. You're kind of.

[A]

Fucked. Well, you need to make the assumptions, but you also need to make sure whatever you're putting forward in front of the executive team, front of the leadership team, has the narrative behind it. Right. It's not just showing the numbers. You have to tell the story. And ultimately, you would hope the story that you're telling leads your team to get to the goal of what you want and the right.

[B]

Conclusion. And how do you handle when you have to push more aggressively? Do you throw up your hands and walk away? Which I think is the most dangerous thing for an FP and a person to do. How do you push? Because a lot of times I think the challenge of FP and A and finance in general, is showing people things they don't want to see or telling them things they don't want to hear. So how do you do that with the people you work.

[A]

With? I think, one, you have to show the problem. Yeah, but you can't just show the problem. You have to follow up and say, here's how we solve it. Here's how we could. Or give options to how we can solve it. Right. Give your thoughts and help move the company forward. Not just saying, here's the problem, you need to solve it, but show different options on how we could solve it, how we get to the conclusion and get to it.

[B]

Quickly. And how do you. I would guess you have to meter that depending on who you work.

[A]

With.

[B]

Yes. Like when you work with Alexis here versus Alicia. It's totally different, I would.

[A]

Imagine. Absolutely. And that's. I think one of the best things about FP&A is you work with so many different departments, and it's a great learning to see how different people view businesses, what's important to them. Right. When you show them a P and L or profit and loss or performance of a company, where do their eyes go? Right. What is important to them? What do they need to think about? And that's the learnings as you're a junior executive or you're growing throughout your career is think about how to have these conversations with different departments who all have different perspectives and need things to push their part of the business.

[B]

Forward. That's great. Great. Okay, my last question for you is how transparent should a company be about its finances? How do you think about.

[A]

That? That's a great question. I think transparency is always incredibly important. I think employees value that very highly. The transparency, you can't share everything. That's just the nature of it. But I think it is important to understand what are the company goals, what do we want to achieve? Maybe throughout the year give an understanding of where we are. But getting really into the nitty gritty is difficult. But transparency on what's our revenue target for the year, how are we progressing? How are you progressing? Where do we need to push? Do we need to be thinking? If spend needs to be tighter, we need to be very conscious on how we're spending and hopefully that comes through in the day to day. From the leadership team, the managers of each of the groups, and being clear with your employees of what the goals.

[B]

Are. I think that's great. Do you think in your experience that more or less people than you thought at work are financially.

[A]

Literate? I think.

[B]

Less. I'm always.

[A]

Shocked. Yeah. And it also sometimes is anybody at any level. Numbers at.

[B]

Times, numbers can be.

[A]

Intimidating.

[B]

Intimidating. I agree with numbers being intimidating. But I think the more dangerous thing is the lack of curiosity. The like not wanting to face the problems that the numbers show. I find to be. I'm always surprised by.

[A]

That. Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Are you?

[A]

No. No. I think that is. I think that's very, very true. I agree with that. I'm curious to.

[B]

Why. I think people are afraid of it because it's confronting. The numbers don't lie. I mean, they do, but they don't. You know what I.

[A]

Mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. All right, Jack. Well, thank you for doing this. I'm so glad you're here. What's your favorite thing and least favorite thing about food?

[A]

52. My favorite thing and least favorite thing. I think I'll start with.

[B]

Least. Is it the lunch.

[A]

Option? No, I actually it is. This is a double edged.

[B]

Sword. I don't want to swear. I feel like your dad's gonna listen and I'd like your dad to think I'm a classy.

[A]

Individual. I know, I know this is a great problem to have but the amount of food and the food that's put out is so good, I can't resist.

[B]

It. Are you a come and get it.

[A]

Guy? I'm a huge come and get it.

[B]

Guy. It's so funny. All the finance people are coming get.

[A]

It. I love it. It is so good. But it's also a lot of food, and I am not good at resisting.

[B]

Things. Okay, so you have, like, the food.

[A]

5215. Yeah, I think that is a thing. The food 5215 is. It's very.

[B]

Real. Okay, what's your.

[A]

Favorite? And I think here the employees are great. You know, it's a young group. Everyone's very excited to work, and there's a lot of opportunity, and being at a small company is very exciting. And I think we're all bootstrapping here and working hard together to make this place.

[B]

Successful. That's great. Okay, well, thank you for doing that. Anything I can do.

[A]

Better? No, Erica, you've been.

[B]

Great. That's not true. Walking hot mess. But, well, I'm so grateful for you. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for doing.

[A]

This. Thank you so much for having me. It's been.

[B]

Great. Let's have you introduce yourself. Who are you, and how did you cross my.

[F]

Path? Oh, my.

[B]

God. I just want to say I met this woman in a gas station gray jumpsuit, which was fabulous and fabulously accessorized. I just wanted to pet.

[F]

You. Thank.

[B]

You. Which I didn't know you well enough to pet.

[F]

You. Yeah, I know, right? Well, maybe at the end of this podcast, we can revisit that. Hey, I'm Nadja. I'm a writer, agency founder, photographer, celebrity interviewer based in New York City. And I have been doing this for way too long. About 15.

[B]

Years. And what makes a good celebrity interviewer, in your.

[F]

Opinion? Interviewer. Interviewee. I would say interviewer. I think you need to be casual, off the cuff, and treat them like a.

[B]

Friend. Okay. Now, when I met you, everybody whispered your name like they're afraid of.

[F]

You. Oh.

[B]

Good. Why are they afraid of you? Do you think people are afraid of you? I mean, I was like. Like I needed to sit up straight. I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna sit up straight for this.

[F]

Lady. I hope that people are afraid of me just because, you know, it requires a lot of resilience to stay even with one leg in journalism for. For 15 years. It's kind of like, why. Why even.

[B]

Bother? Yeah, I got.

[F]

You. I think that's.

[B]

Great.

[F]

It's. It's. It's changed so much, especially the past few years. It's very.

[B]

Sad.

[F]

Yeah. If you're somebody who loves reporting, who.

[B]

Loves. How would you describe the.

[F]

Change? I think that it's become really a lot of pay for play. I think advertorial has definitely taken over. I think that the integrity of journalism is dying. I think it's sad that there's no budget for fact checkers.

[B]

Anymore. Everything's like an.

[F]

Affiliate. Everything's an affiliate link. And it's like, if there's self interest in there, it's no longer objective. So, like this old school way that you study it in school, like J School, they call it, for journalism. Journalism. Big.

[B]

J. Big J for.

[F]

Journalists. Yeah, J School, you know, which I did go to in Toronto. But it's, you know, it's gone. And also the freedom is gone. The freedom to be critical. Like, back when I was at vice, I mean, we could say whatever we wanted. And that was.

[B]

Awesome. Yeah. That was actually encouraged because it.

[F]

Was like, you could just be brutally honest and free and not have to.

[B]

Worry about lawsuits, and now you have to worry about the backlash and being litigious. People being.

[F]

Litigious. And it's mostly about pr. People have more control than the.

[C]

Journalists.

[B]

Hmm. So that balance has.

[F]

Shifted. Yeah. The shift of power is like, we are just, you know, these small little minions, you know, Even after being in the industry for so long, it just doesn't matter anymore. It's like, okay, well, if you're not gonna give us all the interview questions, and if you're not gonna interview these three people that we're telling you to, you don't get access. I was like, oh, okay.

[B]

Bye. So the gatekeepers are very.

[F]

Strong. Yeah. They have, like, overt, like, helicopter mom vibes at all.

[B]

Times. Okay, that's so interesting. Yeah. So, okay, so tell. Let's go through your books. I just want to read the titles because they're fabulous. Like, whether you read these things or not, nobody reads books. But these are very short with a lot of.

[F]

Pictures. That's why I make photo books, because nobody reads.

[B]

Amazing. Okay, so one is Paparazzi Bitch Parties. This is the new.

[F]

Book. That's the new one that's gonna be coming.

[B]

Out. Parties. The Glitzerrati. Yeah. Biennial, bitch. What is this one.

[F]

About? Biennale.

[B]

Bitch. Oh, shit.

[F]

Biennale. Biennale Bitch is about art biennials in.

[B]

Europe. And then my personal favorite, which is red carpet hoe. What's a red carpet.

[F]

Hoe? A red carpet ho is you Know, a hoe who stands on the red carpet for their, like, half their life, just waiting for celebrities to come across their path on that red carpet. Oh.

[B]

Okay. As a.

[F]

Reporter. As the reporter, I was like, why am I spending so much time standing here on these makeshift red carpets with, like, taped, you know, names on the floor and, like, it's just, you know, it's like, what am I doing.

[B]

Here? Do you hate the machine that you're a part of? Or do you wish, like, do you. What do you love? What do you hate? What do you wish would go back to old school? What are you excited about that's.

[F]

New? I'm really excited about.

[B]

Podcasts.

[F]

Okay. I think podcasts are the.

[B]

Future.

[F]

Yeah. Of a type of journalism because people want to tune into conversations. Yeah. That's way more interesting than news robots. Boring political.

[B]

Journalism. You can't that so much. I mean, you can, but no, it's more.

[F]

Interesting. It's like you're, like, in somebody's living room at a party, overhearing a conversation. I think podcasting is the future in terms of, you know, what I wish would change, you know, I guess more budgets for. For real journalism. But now that's going to.

[B]

Substack.

[F]

Yeah. So as long as it looks.

[B]

Funded.

[F]

Yep. For.

[B]

Sure. Do you have a.

[F]

Substack? I.

[B]

Do. Do you like.

[F]

It? Not really. I prefer to just upload videos to TikTok from, you know, conversations. And, I mean, what I love about interviewing celebrities more than anything is, like, being able to ask them, you know, what advice do you have to give to young artists? You know, because everybody here in this country, and I can say this objectively as a Canadian who's an immigrant, is the American dream is all about being rich and famous. Everybody idolizes these people like gods. Celebrity culture is really a machine in itself that's been created here. We don't have Hollywood in.

[B]

Canada. Yeah. It's perfected in this country. Europe doesn't have Hollywood so.

[F]

Much. You know, it's a beautiful India, maybe. Does India has.

[B]

Bollywood? India has Bollywood. But the Americans are. There's a special conniving, magic scene to it. Yeah.

[F]

Okay. So I just always want to ask celebrities. My secret motivation is to always ask them what they have to give back and what their wisdom is and what, you know, what they have to share with young artists to sort of inspire them to keep going in their.

[B]

Careers. And who had some good.

[F]

Advice? Christina.

[B]

Ricci.

[F]

Okay. She said, don't listen to me. Listen to yourself. You know, what you have to.

[B]

Do that's great advice in general for.

[F]

Anyone. Right. You know, Rick Ross was all about positivity and like, you know, staying on a high vibration, which I totally agree with. You know, it just depends on who it was. But I tried to put a lot of those in red carpet hoe.

[B]

Just because those are the things that stuck with.

[F]

You. Well, it's like the most interesting thing. It's timeless.

[B]

Advice. Yep. How do you think about. Do you sleep? Like, how do you. Because you have to be everywhere to get a lot of your stuff. How does your day.

[F]

Work? I mean, I feel like I'm not busy enough. I mean, I'm a single woman. I've never had kids. I'm turning 45 this.

[B]

Year. Great.

[F]

Congratulations. Thank you. I've been free of that.

[B]

Machine. Have you heard about.

[F]

That? No. I love.

[B]

It.

[F]

Okay. I feel like I've escaped a system that's rigged against me. So thanks to my mom for being cold hearted bitch. Love you. But you know, it's like, I would love to publish 30 books before I die. That's my goal. Maybe one a year. And even if nobody reads them, nobody buys them. It's just about me. It's about my legacy and, you know, creating myself, my name as a brand, which journalists are not supposed to do unless they have the company telling them that. So I love that I'm kind of a little bit more independent and a free thinker. But my typical day is, you know, wake up relatively early, get some.

[B]

Writing. What's relatively.

[F]

Early? I don't know, seven.

[B]

Eight. Okay, that's early. I wake up at seven, you know, I said, that's.

[F]

Early. Answer some emails, get some writing done, write an article or two, and then head out to the gym, come back, have some meetings, and then head out to events through sometimes three per night. It's New York City, so that's not necessarily out of the ordinary, but I have done really crazy things like get on a plane for a 15 minute interview in another country and a lot of.

[B]

People. And do you resent that or are you like, I'm in. I mean, I'm hit my shot, I'm.

[F]

In. But sometimes it doesn't.

[B]

Happen. And you've flown all the way.

[F]

And I'm like knocking on the door. That's like one of the first stories in here. I had to go interview Paula Abdul during her Vegas residency and they were like, oh, she'll do the interview tomorrow, she'll do the interview tomorrow. And then I'm like knocking on.

[B]

The. You're like, I'm still.

[F]

Here. I'm like, they're like, sorry, she's not in the mood. She just doesn't feel good. And slammed the door in my face. And I was like, cool, okay, I guess I'll get back on the plane and like five hours home. I didn't get the interview, but I got photos and the story behind it. You know that rejection is in.

[B]

There. That's great. So you are you. You know, one of the things that I talk about a lot on this is just this gig economy. Like we're moving to a gig economy. More and more people live in a gig economy. You are, you're, you have been in the gig economy. That's not.

[F]

New.

[B]

Yeah. What's your advice to people getting into that? Because it takes a huge amount of. It takes a lot of organization. It takes a lot of initiative. You have to say yes when you feel like no. How. What's your advice to people living in.

[F]

That? Be careful because you're very easily disposable. So if you mess up in one instance with the wrong person, you may never be used by that company ever again. Because you're just a gig person. You're not on staff. You're not like a PR rep.

[B]

At. There's no loyalty to.

[F]

You. No. You're replaceable. And you have to realize that's.

[B]

Actually a really good piece of advice because it's so interesting. We were looking at a current event thing earlier today about how there's I think this resentment that companies are no longer loyal to people. That this idea of which is 100% true, I think sure, in our grandparents time, companies were loyal. You're like a lifelong GE employee, whatever. But there is also a flip side of that coin of when a company hires you in a full time gig, they are more accepting of good days, bad days, highs, lows, mistakes. When you're in the gig economy, you got one. Like what I love about you is you take your shot. Like the photograph is a shot, the interview on the red carpet is a shot. But you're also really saying that's the ethos of the whole.

[F]

Thing. Yeah, yeah. And there's no investment in people who are working in the gig economy. So you have to invest in.

[B]

Yourself. And how do you advise people to do that? Because I'm sure people are like, ooh, I even struggle with it. It was interesting when I launched this podcast, they were like, well, you have to put money into promoting it. And I was like, oh gosh. Like, I don't know that I would ever Put my own money to promoting this. And then I was like, what else am I putting my money towards? Like, that's. It's actually an interesting dialogue. How do you invest back in yourself in this.

[F]

Profession? I mean, I have to always be creating goals and trying to meet them, and they have to be better than the year before. And you have to be hard on yourself, because if you're not hard on yourself, who's gonna do it for you? No, you're just gonna lay back, be lazy. For me, a great contributing factor was living in Germany. I lived and worked in Berlin for seven years. And that's where a lot of.

[B]

The. I feel like we're playing.

[F]

Cards in here. So with parties, it was like, I'll van away. Okay, there we go. I mean, you know, Berlin is a very free place. It thrives on nightlife. I was a party photographer. That's how I started.

[B]

Out. I totally see.

[F]

That. But at the same.

[B]

Time. Did you wear.

[F]

Black? Yeah, I wore black all the time. But the thing with Germany is that rules are really kind of set in stone. But in America, everybody thinks they can bend the rules. And so I'm just kind of. I don't know, you know, it was a good.

[B]

Experience. So did you get your hand.

[F]

Slapped? It was just more about living in a really highly disciplined society where all the trains show up on.

[B]

Time. Okay, that. Which is.

[F]

Lovely. Right? So it was, like, very strong, structured here. People are less disciplined. I find they're more distracted by social media very, very easily. They're very vain, you know, and, you know, you can tap into that and use it to your advantage. Or at the same time, you know, you can just figure out a way to get ahead past.

[B]

Them. Yeah, there's more scheming here. There's more creativity. There's more like, if you have gumption and initiative and take risk versus order, which is why this country launches more celebrities. That's why it's more. Because there is that creativity, there's that spark, there's the unpredictability. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so you invest in yourself. You take every shot you.

[F]

Get.

[B]

Always. How do you deal with.

[F]

Rejection? You just have to keep going. It doesn't really matter. Sometimes it takes certain authors, if you look at it, or even screenwriters, 10 years to sell a script or to sell a book. Book. And, you know, you have to be willing to send it out to publishers, like over a hundred of them. Just like, you know, if you. If you really commit to 300 pitches a day, I mean, you will be successful. You will be rich if that's what your goal is. But, you know, being able to be resilient and bounce back and not feel sorry for yourself and not because a lot of creative people, you know, they're moody, they're emotional, they want to feel sorry for themselves because it's poetic and romantic. But at a certain point you have to get out, you know, and start it over again tomorrow, you know, And I know that sounds really kind of like boring, like doing laundry, but you build strength over the years and maybe you hopefully gain.

[B]

Respect. Yeah. What's your wish for your.

[F]

Legacy? I mean, you know, I just hope that people remember me as somebody who, you know, I come from, like a blue collar family. My dad was a cab driver. He was from Palestine, you know, and I was a first generation Canadian. My mom's Scottish. And the fact that I was able to come here, you know, after nine years in Europe, living in Paris, in Berlin, and being trilingual and being able to live in New York City is a huge privilege. You know, a lot of people don't realize what people like. Yeah, you know, it's so busy on the subway, there's too many people. But that, you know, that's such a luxury. Well, it's like, you know, you have to be like Hercules, like, to even just get to this point to like live here and move here and like, it's. It's insane. You know what I mean? It was always my dream to live here. And, you know, a lot of people have the privilege to have citizenship. Maybe that will be an option for me one day. But, you know, New York City is really tough, but it's also tougher elsewhere as well. So I definitely think that a lot of creatives need to get better at tooting their own horn by doing their own pr. A lot of people can't afford PR agencies. They don't need to. They just have to make sure. They always have a book coming out or they have to make sure. Yeah.

[D]

Exactly.

[F]

Right. And as long as you always have something on the future and the horizon to focus on and talk about, that sometimes can keep you.

[B]

Going. How do you build relationships with people? Because clearly I think access is very much driven by relationships. How do you think about.

[F]

That? I mean, it's strange because, you know, in this industry there's like a lot of this buddy, buddy stuff, like, you're my best.

[B]

Friend. Oh, my.

[F]

God. But I just kind of like to keep things like sort of straight to business. If there's something that I want, I'll Ask for it. And sometimes I even get in trouble or turn people off because I call a spade a spade. Yeah, you seem very direct. But I also don't like to waste.

[B]

Time. Yeah.

[F]

100%. You're like, I'm busy, so, like, let's keep this train moving. Are we moving? Are we getting any closer or are we just. Just, you know, waffling? So trying to staying. Just keeping that focus. But building relationships. I'm very, you know, with recent experiences that I've had, I've got to say I'm tentative to sort of build relationships. Because sometimes if you build relationships too deeply, then there is an.

[B]

Expectation. Yeah. It becomes.

[F]

Uncomfortable. Yeah. And so there's. I always try and make sure, like, if you have work friendships, I. I mean, there's still work. At the end of the day, it's not more about the friendship, it's more about the work. Because you met in a work circumstance unless you're willing to totally cut off that work part and just be friends. But some people just conflate the two and it becomes a very gray.

[B]

Area. Especially when you're working freelance or you're creative. Like, it's emotional work. It's outside of office hours. There's nothing corporate about it. Like, that's gotta be actually those boundaries. That's actually way. Probably way more of a. Something that eats headspace than one would think.

[F]

Yeah. You know, my therapist has heard all about it, so. But, you know, but really, like, you just have to. At the end of the day, just, you know, it's. Work is work. I mean, unless you can live off of your friendships, which would be.

[B]

Great. Absolutely. I just finished this book called Girl on Girl. Have you heard about this.

[C]

Book?

[F]

Book? No, but what is it.

[B]

About? It's very interesting. It is a walk through the last 40, 50 years in 40 years in culture and how women are portrayed and perceived and how the machine spits out women. And it's actually. I think you would like it because I think you've had a front row seat for it. So it talks about how, you know, like, in the 1980s and the 90s, there was the rise of, like, the girl bands and women were angry. And it talks about the rise of rap and how women are portrayed. It's actually very interesting. I think you would appreciate it because what it really gets to is, look, it's the Madonna and the whore of it all. Like, you know, and it's also. It talks a lot about how porn's influence on celebrity and the role of women. But. But Also, how the machine prefers celebrity, that's very packaged and very controllable, which is to say passive and young versus standout, strong women. And I think you would like it, because I think you've covered celebrity in so many different facets and also in a lot of different forms, and you yourself have been in that.

[F]

Mix. Yeah. But the thing that stayed sort of consistent throughout much of the time is the beauty standards that have been imposed on women. Like, you're not gonna get famous unless you get that no job, nose job. Unless you're a size two. Yeah. You know, Unless you have this, like, all American, you know, Brandy Melville type of look. Yeah. You know what I mean? And sometimes we get, like, a different flavor. Like, hey, there's a Lizzo. Hey, there's this, there's.

[B]

That. Yeah. There's a Kardashian. But then it's still. It's got its own standards tied.

[F]

To. Yeah. And then do they just end up conforming to. To it in order to stay in the.

[B]

System? Yeah. That's.

[F]

Interesting. You know, so I'm always thinking, like, who. That's what my book, Paparazzi Bitch is all about is like, what is. What does the female gaze in celebrity photography look like? Because so much of it is, you know, what the. What the men think like. Rose McGowan. I shot her in a hotel, right. In a hotel bedroom in London. She's like, I'm gonna sit on the bed. And I was like, okay, whatever you want, girl. And we just had fun with those photos, you know, Jennifer Lawrence, Sheryl Crow. I mean, how does a woman capture these celebrities different than the Predator and Prey chase of, you know, a male photographer and a female celebrity? Thom York, the singer of Radiohead, backstage at the Venice Film Festival, when all the. All the journalists were just putting out paper to try and get his signature because they were just all fangirling out, and the prisoners person was yelling at them like, this is disgusting. You're so unprofessional. Nobody.

[B]

Cared. Yeah. They just want the photo. They just want. They want the shot. They were under the spell. What's the secret to getting a great.

[F]

Shot? Do you think taking a photo when you're not supposed.

[C]

To.

[F]

Yep. Because if. If, you know, a celebrity is on a red carpet and everybody's like, there's like, 30 photographers, and everybody's pointed at that. They. They're not. They're gonna get the same smile, the same photo. I'm not saying go and wait outside their house because that whole, like, actual paparazzi thing that's.

[B]

Gross. Yeah. And.

[F]

Dangerous.

[B]

It's. It's.

[F]

Just. I just don't have time for that. But there's some people who make their living doing that, and, you know, they're very good at it. Ron Galela, you know, went down in history, and now his. His paparazzi photos of Jackie Onassis are in museums. But she also filed a restraining order against him because he was a stalker. Like, it's just. It's insane. So, to me, I prefer to photograph celebrities when they're glammed up and they're coming to events and they're stepping out of the car and they're entering the venue, and you've got Black Knight behind them, and you just see them walking, and there's motion, and, you know, they're looking around. Like, I love arrivals and departures or even, you know, approaching them. And, you know, when they're. When they're seated or just to get, like, any kind of different shot, because it's the same. It's always the same thing over and over. Like, Alicia Keys. Yeah, this was in Berlin. You know, she was walking through the crowd to go up on stage. You know, I was like, stop. You know, I always say, like, stop. Like, one more for the woman photographer. Because all the men. And then, like, they always hear. It's always the woman who stop and turn around. So I have. I have all these photos of women celebrities. That's good for.

[B]

You. I love.

[F]

That. Just turning around, like. Cause I wait for all the men to do their thing, and they're, like, yelling and telling them, the celebrities, what to do, which is what you have to do. You have to be willing to, like, tell a celebrity. Okay, now can you go like this? Or, like, can you look over here? And a lot of people are so.

[B]

Frustrated. Very.

[F]

Directive. Yeah. And then. But they're used to it. Right? But a lot of people around you will look at you like, you're out of your mind, because you're yelling at these people. And then, you know, you get the shot. But the biggest challenge nowadays, I find, within the past five years is people with their phones thinking that their Instagram story is more important than your, like, $10,000 camera. And it's, like, in the shot, and they're just, like, random people behind you just putting in. And you have to, like, kind of, like, swat them out of the way. Like, excuse.

[B]

Me. Like.

[F]

This. This is my job. This is not my Instagram story. Like, I'm actually making a living doing this. Like, please get your phone out of the way. And so, you know, it depends on what kind of day some photographers are.

[B]

Having. But, man, that's a.

[F]

Lot. You gotta. You gotta keep your patience no matter what, because you're still on the.

[B]

Clock. Okay, so let's leave us with how do people follow you and find.

[F]

You? Okay, we'll start there. My name is so.

[B]

Unique. It is so.

[F]

Unique. N A D, J, A, S A Y E.

[B]

J. And you pronounce.

[F]

It. Naja, Nadja, Sage. Yo, what's up? So if you just find me on Instagram, TikTok, whatever have.

[B]

You. I mean, that's like a brand name, you know, you have like a.

[F]

Clothing label name, you know, but it, like, smells like falafel a little.

[B]

Bit. Oh, I don't think.

[F]

So. It's like. And I'm into that. I'm totally like, I love. No, I don't like deep fried food anymore, but I like hummus. So my byline smells like hummus and pita.

[B]

Bread. You know what's so funny? Last night at dinner, I played what's your favorite vegetable? Which is like the stupid shit I do to entertain teenagers. And mine was chickpeas, because chickpeas make hummus. I love hummus.

[F]

Right? Isn't it the.

[B]

Best? It's the best. Hold on, let me demo.

[F]

Yours.

[B]

Okay. So where do they find.

[F]

You? Yeah, with the J. Yeah, you can. You can just find me on social media and, you know, that's where I'm at. That's.

[B]

Great. And where would they find your work? Where do they buy your.

[F]

Books? You're gonna have to contact me for that. I'm. I mean, I think that. Yeah, I'm. I think got it on TikTok shop and got it on Amazon. But, you know, if you want to sign.

[B]

Copy. Okay. Well, that's amazing. Thank you for doing.

[F]

This. Thank you for having.

[B]

Me. Actually, sorry, one last question. What are your three biggest tips to succeed? If there's a. My Jessica Rose this week today used the word junior executive. So let's say there's a junior NJ out there. What's your advice to.

[F]

Her? My first advice is channel your inner Aquarius. Because Aquarians are very good at making objective decisions that are not emotional. And that's why I admire them so much as a Scorpio, because I.

[B]

Can. It's very.

[F]

Difficult. It's very difficult for me to make an objective, non emotional decision. So channel your inner Aquarius or ask your own Aquarius advisory board, because I have them. But, you know, being able to make sure that you make objective decisions is basically what I'm saying. Because if it's clouded by, you know, emotion or. Oh, I want to feel. Yeah. If I want to take this job because there's this guy out of the city that I like, it's not an objective thing. My second piece of advice is to always be inspired. Because if you are inspired, your own work, that inspiration is gonna bleed out everywhere like magic dust. And you want the people around you to be jacked up on that so they keep coming back to you for work. And I would say number three, file before deadline. Always make sure you're ahead of your deadlines because people. And be early and things like that, because it's just kind of like a sign of respect. Sometimes people take it really personally and are offended if, you know, you go over time. You do go over budget if you, you know. So I would just say, you know, I was trying to file a day early. I always pay rent early. Like, I'm like a fucking.

[B]

Nerd. That is the best piece of advice I've heard somebody say. I love.

[F]

That. Okay.

[B]

Good. That was amazing. Thank you so much for doing this. You are.

[F]

Fabulous. Thank.

[B]

You. Thank you. All right, we're doing strategery. Strategery is back. Our strategery phrase today is, let's take it offline. I am guilty of using this one. I think it's annoying, the whole offline online of it all. Like, there really isn't anything anymore that's offline. But let's take it offline technically means let's discuss this topic privately at a later time or in a different setting than in our current meeting or group discussion. It's a polite way to manage the flow of conversation by shifting a complex, lengthy, or relevant topic away from the larger group to maintain focus and efficiency. I can also be used politely to end an uncomfortable or a difficult conversation. I think it's a little cheesy, the phrase, like, let's take it offline. I do think it's very pervasive in business. I also think calling the audible when a meeting goes into a gully, which is a new phrase for me, when you go off topic or when you get into a rabbit hole of like, which is also a phrase I use a lot. I don't think that's a corporate buzzword, but when you get off topic or you get off track or things get uncomfortable or unproductive, basically saying, hey, let's put a pause on this. Let's talk about this later. Let's. Let's do this someplace other than here is a good practice to keep things on track. All right, so that's it for our episode today. Big shout out to Jack Fisher. We love Jack Fisher. Thank you to Jack for joining us. Big shout out to Work like a girl. If you haven't already, you can sign up and join Work like a girl in my handle. So you can go to my link tree and sign up for our slack group there if you haven't already and you want a I don't know that our Labor Day sale will be going. Our Labor Day sale isn't going great. You will still be able to buy something for sale 20% off at schoolhouse when this episode comes out. If you can't, it means it went well. So I'll leave it to people to see if our sale went well or not and we will see you back here on.