Why Gen Z Feels Burnt Out and CEOs Are Sending Emails Like Elon

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Why Gen Z Feels Burnt Out and CEOs Are Sending Emails Like Elon"

Work with Erika Ayers Badan
Host: Erika Ayers Badan
Date: July 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Work with Erika Ayers Badan takes a candid and humorous look at the workplace zeitgeist: Gen Z’s relationship with burnout, multi-generational dynamics at work and home, and the increasing trend of CEOs, like Elon Musk, making bold moves on workplace policies. Erika is joined by colleagues Jessica Rose and Summer Nelson, and together they discuss everything from managing stress and career advice to whether “partner” or “girlfriend” is the right word in modern office talk. As always, Erika blends unfiltered commentary, real-life stories, and actionable work advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Real-World Work Stress

• Erika and her team open with a relatable, behind-the-scenes look at prepping for a big event—acknowledging high stress levels, planning anxieties, and the juggling act that defines modern office life.
• Notable banter about stress, self-care routines (including earwax cleaning), and the challenges of workplace headcount stress.
  • Quote (Erika, 02:22):
    “Anybody tired of people fucking bitching at me and asking me for headcount? Which if there’s anyone who works here who listens to this, don’t ask me for a headcount. Literally had a freak out last night about that.”

2. Personal Reflections: The Danger of the “Old Yardstick”

• Erika digs into the tendency to measure present performance (at work, in health, in life) against outdated personal benchmarks—something she sees as especially common for women and parents feeling pressure to be their "old selves."
  • Quote (Erika, 05:52):
    “It’s really hard when you are wishing you were thinner or stronger or, you know, making less mistakes or more successful... It’s almost like I’m defeated before I start because I’m holding myself to a person I was a long time ago... your old yardstick isn’t how you shouldn’t use that to hang over you for where you are now.”
• Encourages listeners to redefine their standards and have compassion for their current selves.

3. Current Events: Gen Z “Rat People” and the Burnout Rebellion

(Start ~09:35)

• Discussion of the so-called “Rat People” in China’s Gen Z—a subculture rebelling against burnout by spending most of their time in bed.
• Erika relates this to her own son’s complaints about exhaustion and critiques how “burnout” is understood by younger generations.
  • Quote (Erika, 11:21):
    “Burnout culture is a funny thing where the people crying burnout actually have very, very little comprehension what burnout is. Even people in white collar jobs or me...really can’t complain that much about burnout.”
• Exploration of whether today’s youth are “quitting before they begin,” and the implications for future family dynamics—multi-generational living, “Eastern-style households,” and generational dependence.
  • Jessica Rose (12:45):
    “That is sad. And it’s very Eastern like parenting and lifestyle… people live with multi-generational... families.”
  • Erika (13:17):
    “Maybe we’re getting back to that type of community where it’s family community, multiple generations… that’s actually not a bad thing.”

4. Burnout: A Word That’s Lost Its Meaning?

(~14:59 and 33:59)

• The “B-word” of the workplace: how burnout has entered the everyday vernacular for even high schoolers—but should it be so casually used?
  • Jessica Rose (14:20):
    “The funny thing to me is like, I did...I don’t even think I knew the term burnout as a freshman high school kid...”
  • Erika (33:59):
    “Burnout is going to be Kleenexed... burnout kind of becomes a catch all for being dissatisfied and tired, when in reality, it’s actually a pretty serious situation.”
• Recommends not using “burnout” lightly—save it for when you’re truly burnt out, and seek help if needed. Don’t conflate tiredness or discontent with actual burnout.

5. CEO Memoranda & Return to Office: Elon Musk’s Mandate

(~15:05)

• Erika highlights Elon Musk’s internal email requiring Tesla employees to return to the office, interpreting it as “old school, harsh, but passionate” leadership.
  • Quote (Erika, 15:05):
    “Elon Musk sent an email out to Tesla employees...the subject line read, to be super clear, everyone at Tesla is required to spend a minimum of 40 hours in the office per week. Moreover, the office must be where your actual colleagues are located, not some remote pseudo office. If you don’t show up, we’ll assume you’ve resigned.”
• Discussion expands to how companies handling return-to-office policies signals a clash between employers and Gen Z, and how this will shape employee satisfaction and corporate culture.

6. Ageism in the Workplace: Challenges for Young Women

(~19:55)

• Spotlight on a new study: nearly 50% of women under 30 feel age negatively impacts their work, with Erika pondering whether ageism is worse for young women than young men.
  • Quote (Erika, 20:22):
    “There is a stereotype and a prejudice that young women are ditzy or spacey or not to be taken seriously... I actually think there’s ageism on both sides of the spectrum.”
• Notes that industry and workplace culture make a significant difference.

7. Summer Nelson’s Intern Perspective: Internships, Burnout, and the Work Ethic

(Interview starts at 20:30)

• Summer Nelson, content and social intern at Food52 (and formerly Barstool, TMZ), shares her experience stacking multiple internships and why she values workplace experience.
  • Summer Nelson (21:41):
    “Being able to get in the workplace the younger you are... is, in my opinion, the only way to be able to, like, land a good job post-grad.”
• She admits burnout is possible, but she thrives off work:
  • Summer Nelson (22:14):
    “You can do burnout for sure... but I think I just have this fire to work a lot. Like, I love working.”

8. Navigating Work, Life, and “Party” Balance as Gen Z

• Summer shares insight into the “work hard, play hard” campus vibe, the drive of women at UCLA, and the changing norms in dating and self-identification.
• Lively discussion on modern relationship labels (“partner” vs. “girlfriend”), inclusivity, and generational communication.
  • Jessica Rose (25:22):
    “It’s a PC culture thing… it’s become part of the vernacular where it’s like, it’s safe…”

9. Intern Pay, Access, and Life Lessons

• Reflection on the evolution of internship pay and why unpaid internships are outdated and exclusionary.
  • Erika (26:28):
    “When I was your age, the internships were unpaid... if you needed money, you had to choose waitressing...versus a job that could further your quote unquote career.”
• Summer and Erika agree getting both experience and income is critical for modern students.

10. Favorite Work Project Stories and Home Tours

• Summer recalls how she heard of Erika, attempted to join her “book chain,” and chased down a copy across states.
  • Summer Nelson (28:13):
    “I’ve actually known who you are for a long time because I’m very inspired by you, girlboss... I tried to be part of the book chain…”
  • Engaging stories about home tour productions and learning on the job.

11. Teaching Segment: The Charisma Wheel

(32:12)

• Erika introduces the “Charisma Wheel”—a tool for workplace presence and connection.
  • Tips include:
    • Remember & use people’s names
    • Mirror body language
    • Ask real questions, say meaningful things
    • Speak more slowly, own pauses, tell short stories
    • Match energy (though Erika remains skeptical: “Sometimes when people come in angry... you being calm... can actually be a better way.” [32:59])
    • Plant your feet when presenting
    • Compliment details
    • Smile genuinely

12. Strategery: Redefining Burnout

• Final advice: Reserve the label of burnout for situations of chronic stress; don’t use it as shorthand for everyday tiredness or dissatisfaction.
  • Erika (34:45):
    “If you are just feeling unfulfilled, unsatisfied, or stressed and tired, in a lot of ways those things are very solvable...you’ve got to solve [them] within yourself or you’ve got to solve [them] where you work.”

13. Parting Wisdom: If Not This, Then Something Better

• Closing on a positive note: accept new norms for yourself, and remember you can always seek something better if you’re unhappy with your current situation.
  • Erika (End):
    “If not this, then something better... If you don’t want to do this, you can go do something better. If this doesn’t work out, there’s something else out there.”

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On stress at work:
  • “Anybody tired of people fucking bitching at me and asking me for headcount?... Literally had a freak out last night about that.” — Erika, 02:22
• On burnout among Gen Z:
  • “Burnout culture is a funny thing where the people crying burnout actually have very, very little comprehension what burnout is.” — Erika, 11:21
• On ageism for young women:
  • “There is a stereotype and a prejudice that young women are ditzy or spacey or not to be taken seriously...” — Erika, 20:22
• On love of working:
  • “I think I just have this fire to work a lot. Like, I love working.” — Summer Nelson, 22:14
• On being good to yourself:
  • “Set new standards and accept where you are and where you want to go...” — Erika, Closing

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–05:41 | Prepping for the event, stress, and personal stories
• 05:52–09:35 | Tips & tricks: Letting go of the “old yardstick”
• 09:35–15:04 | Gen Z “rat people” and understanding modern burnout
• 15:05–19:55 | Elon Musk email, CEO culture, and return-to-office wars
• 19:55–20:30 | Early-career ageism for women
• 20:30–26:12 | Interview: Summer Nelson on internships, burnout, and balance
• 26:12–32:11 | Home tour stories, career advice, and passing on inspiration
• 32:12–33:59 | Teaching segment: The Charisma Wheel
• 33:59–End | Strategery: Burnout redefined, parting wisdom

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Episode Tone

Candid, irreverent, supportive, and real—Erika and her guests blend straight talk and humor with thoughtful commentary.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Don’t hold yourself to unrealistic or outdated standards—recalibrate and move forward.
• Recognize the difference between true burnout and everyday tiredness; don’t diminish the meaning of the word.
• Stay open to change—when one opportunity isn’t right, something better is often ahead.
• Connection, substance, and presence trump almost everything else at work.
• The work landscape is evolving, and generational differences are both a challenge and an opportunity.

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For future advice, workplace inspiration, and more, visit erikaayersbadan.substack.com.

Transcript

[Erica]

Lemonade.

[Jessica Rose]

Hi.

[Erica]

Hi. Jessica Rose.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Hi.

[Erica]

How are you doing? Jessica Rose is stressed right now. So just for anybody listening to this, Good morning. Good morning. And Jessica Rose is stressed. We're recording this before we're having our pastry box event and we're having a good discussion. It's the first time we have done this here. It's a big learning.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Kinda. Yeah.

[Erica]

Like this?

[Unidentified Colleague]

I guess.

[Erica]

Like this.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Yes.

[Summer Nelson]

Yeah.

[Erica]

So your stress level's like, what, a 12 out of 10 or like a 17?

[Unidentified Colleague]

I think the scrolling. If you had asked me, I was like, tweaking out. But now I think you're back. Yeah, well. Cause now I'm like, on top of it all again. You know what I mean? I think everything is.

[Erica]

Did you stay for the ad event yesterday?

[Unidentified Colleague]

No, I went straight home.

[Erica]

Oh, okay. I was like, I'm done. Okay. What are we doing this week?

[Unidentified Colleague]

Okay, so this week.

[Erica]

All right, Monday. I'm going to Fox. I love going to Fox. Have I ever told you this? I love, love, love, love going to Fox. 1. It scares me a little bit because I'm like, you're always so good on it, though. No. Well, I get scared because I sit outside and then I'm like, if I was a crazy left wing person, I would this place right now. And I always get nervous going, oh.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Dude, no one will ever do that.

[Erica]

And then the makeup people at Fox are just the absolute best. Like the best of the best of the best. Daniela, my old assistant, too slightly, who's awesome, she started her career in the makeup department at Fox. Really? And the Fox makeup people do miracle work. And then it's just fun to be on tv.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Yeah.

[Erica]

So I'm going with T ara to Fox, and then I gotta find a place to meet with Su Han. I'm also getting my earwax cleaned. That's the Alex ent. Do you ever have a. Do you have earwax?

[Unidentified Colleague]

I do. I actually have really bad.

[Erica]

I have small ear canals. So I make an appointment every six months or actually every three months.

[Unidentified Colleague]

I had to get it irrigated a few times.

[Erica]

Yeah, it hurts. I hate that thing. It's actually the worst thing ever. But it feels so good and you hear so much better when it's done.

[Unidentified Colleague]

It makes. Flying really does. Do you like, when you fly, does it, like, bother the hell out of you?

[Erica]

No, but sometimes. This is tmi and everyone who listens or watches this is gonna think I'm gross. But sometimes if it just builds up, I have little ear canals and then I have sticky earwax and then it just like gets a little shut and then I can't hear what people are saying. And it's frustrating. I actually should live like that. I should just live like that and be like, la, la la.

[Unidentified Colleague]

You're like, I don't wan.

[Erica]

Anybody tired of people fucking bitching at me and asking me for headcount. Which if there's anyone who works here who listens to this, don't ask me for a head count. Literally had a freak out last night about that.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Oh, no.

[Erica]

I had an email that I sent at 9:09pm and the. The first thing I said, and it was rant, colon.

[Jessica Rose]

Oh, God.

[Unidentified Colleague]

All right, well, Tuesday, so be happy.

[Erica]

We didn't get that. Okay, so I'm meeting with somebody. I don't know who they are.

[Unidentified Colleague]

They're a, I believe creator. Let me double check. Let's see.

[Erica]

Oh, we gotta talk about Tuesday.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Yeah.

[Erica]

Oh, wait.

[Unidentified Colleague]

We gotta have the exec meeting.

[Erica]

Wait, is Tuesday the 30th?

[Unidentified Colleague]

Yes. No, it's the 29th.

[Jessica Rose]

29Th? Yes.

[Unidentified Colleague]

The Wednesday is the 30th. Yeah.

[Erica]

Okay. All right, I gotta get organized. All right. I have an exec meeting that day. Bonnie Jarrett, one of my favorite people. Do you want to hear about Bonnie Jarrett?

[Unidentified Colleague]

Go for it.

[Erica]

Okay, so Bonnie Jarrett is. Is. I probably shouldn't be saying this on this, but I love Bonnie Jarrett. So Bonnie Jarrett used to work at a big, big, fancy law firm. And the big, big, fancy law firm was retained by a board I was on. And Bonnie Jarrett was the point of contact at the big, big, fancy law firm and the board I was on. There was a lot of problems. Problems. Problems. Like epic, terrible, dirty, terrible, terrible problems.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Oh, Lord.

[Erica]

And Bonnie Jarrett was like the voice of doom. So, like, I would see Bonnie Jarrett's number in my phone come up, and I'd be like, fuck. You know, like, shit. No. Like, what is it? So anyways, spent a lot of time and a lot of uncomfortable conversations with Bonnie Jarrett. And. But she's lovely and she's a badass and she's sharp and she's scrappy and she's like, worked in the government. And like, she's just a great lawyer. And she left. She's decided to make a career change. And we should really ask her if I should talk about this before we do this. And I'm just such a fan of hers that I'm like, I still. When I see her number pop up. She called me on a Sunday like three weeks ago, and I was like, but now I'm like, you wanna come work here? What do you wanna do? So anyways, that's Bonnie Jarrett. Then I got this book, the Hype Woman. We're gonna talk to the Hype woman. Yep.

[Unidentified Colleague]

So that's coming out, like, I don't even know in a couple months.

[Erica]

Oh, it's far out.

[Unidentified Colleague]

That interview is, like, gonna be, I.

[Jessica Rose]

Think, with the book of the launch.

[Erica]

Okay.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Which I think it's in, like, October or September.

[Erica]

Great. Then I'm staying in New York City, and I have a big meeting.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Big, super secret meeting. All day. Yep. And then you are meeting.

[Erica]

Oh, then I'm meeting a creator. That's fun.

[Unidentified Colleague]

I'm meeting with the creator. The next day, you have your vice board meeting. You have a substack call.

[Erica]

Whose phone is going crazy right now? Jesus.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Somebody. I think the balloons are here for. Yeah. So we'll. We'll rocket through the rest of this. Okay.

[Erica]

What am I doing with substack?

[Unidentified Colleague]

I think it's just a follow up to another conversation.

[Erica]

Okay. Oh, tech roadmap. That's gonna be a knockdown drag out.

[Unidentified Colleague]

Then you have the tech roadmap, and then you have your monthly wlag on Friday. And that's kind of the week so far. Great. We can adjust as need be, but.

[Erica]

I think that's gonna be what it is. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate you.

[Unidentified Colleague]

I appreciate you.

[Erica]

Okay. Welcome back to work. I'm Erica. We talk about work here and all sorts of other random things that you may or may not care about. We're gonna open up this episode. We always open it up with tips and tricks. And then I always think about, I don't have any tips and tricks, but I do have a lot of things that I'm thinking about. So what I'm thinking about today is I just got off this. We have a monthly virtual work, like a girl, office hours, drop in and talk about stuff. And one of the things we were talking about today is, I think, really important, and it's something I'm also struggling with, is I think there's two things. One is, I think it's really easy to measure yourself by an old yardstick that you had for yourself. Like, I think it's really hard when you are wishing you were thinner or stronger or, you know, making less mistakes or more successful or had better work, life balance or, you know, more time in your day to do things you wanted or you were a better parent or a better partner or whatever. I think it's really easy to look back at a time when you were really good at that thing. And like, for me, I was thinking about it last weekend. Like, my body. I have so much stress right now. My body is, like, crumbling. Like, I have carpal tunnel. My shoulder doesn't work. Like, I can't even, like, put my bra on and off, which is tmi, actually. I bet Evelyn and Bobby has a solution for this. Like, I gotta. I gotta ask Bri about that. The self putting on bra would be amazing for women, but. And then every time I go to work out, I remember, like, oh, I used to be able to run, like, six miles at a stretch, and I worked out all the time, and I was like a grasshopper, and I could run around, and I weighed 15 less pounds than I weigh now or whatever. And it's almost like I'm defeated before I start because I'm holding myself to a person I was a long time ago or a way that I. I was shaped a long time ago or a way that my body felt or my mind felt. And the reality is, like, your old yardstick isn't how you shouldn't use that to hang over you for where you are now. And I think a lot of times, I think this is true for women after they've had a baby, which is they expect their life to go back and be able to do all the things they did before they had a baby or before they had those type of responsibilities. Or maybe you have an aging parent, or maybe you have a lot of pressure outside of work and you're still holding yourself to the thing you used to be able to do so well. And I think it's really important to let that go and kind of set a new place and a new norm for where you are now. And I think the same is true at work. Like, you maybe had a job where you had a great relationship with your boss, and so you come into your new job with an expectation that you're going to have the same great relationship with your boss, and you're almost down on yourself and defeating yourself before you even give yourself a chance to win the current situation. And I'm thinking about that a lot in my advice or my tip and trick on it, is to really be cognizant of where and when you're defeating yourself. At work, in your relationships, at life, in your health, with your fitness, whatever, because you're holding yourself to a standard that should no longer apply. So that's my tip and trick for the week. All right, let's do current events. So we're going to Start with the Rat People. So the rat people are Gen zers in China. So there's a whole, a whole bunch of Gen Z people in China. They're probably like relishing in their labu boos and other bag charms, but they've decided to call themselves the Rat People because they just take to their beds all day, they stay in bed all day. They are in a rebellion against burnout, which is really funny, I think. I had a conversation with my son. My son is at nerd camp this summer and absolutely fucking hates it and has never called nor texted me as much, nor said I love you as much, which is just an indication of how miserable he is. So I talked to him this morning at like 6:45am and he was like, ugh, I had to get up. I was, you know, I went to the gym at six o'. Clock. I have classes all day. I've got four hours of homework. I'm just so burnt out. I'm just so burnt out. And I was like, dude, you're killing me. You're not even in ninth grade and you're burnt out. Like, try working 70 hours a week and having stress and paying for your entire lifestyle and blah blah, blah, blah blah. And he was like, yeah, but you're not about to be a high school freshman. I was like, you're right, you're right. But anyways, I think burnout culture is a funny thing where the people crying burnout actually have very, very little comprehension what burnout is. And even, you know, even people in white collar jobs or me or, you know, people who are professionals really can't complain that much about burnout. So I think this whole notion of burnout culture is, to me, it's interesting. I think it's funny. I think it's obviously deeply disturbing. I think that there's a rebellion against it is kind of funny because I'm not exactly sure what you're rebelling against besides exertion and effort. And those are funny things to rebel against. But I think there is something about this generation and the generations that come after it where there is a little. There are so many gifts, there have so many attributes, but they are quitting before they begin. And they're making it like a political statement. And I just, I actually think it's gonna create an interesting dynamic because the Gen Xers and the pre. Whoever these people's parents are, I think they're probably like Gen X or whatever comes before me are going to end up having to fund and care for them forever. Like that's what's going to happen. And I don't know, I think that's interesting. I think that's actually going to be a big thing. Which is the Gen X or the Gen X are. Well, sorry, who raises Gen Z? Who do Gen Zs come from?

[Jessica Rose]

That would be boomers, right?

[Erica]

No, no, I'm boomers. No. Am I a boomer?

[Jessica Rose]

No. Gen X.

[Erica]

They're Gen X, right? Yeah. I'm at the end of Gen X, Gen X and Gen X. It's funny because when you look at the distribution of wealth or you think about like all this stuff Rashad was talking about, like it's gonna be women who have all the money, it's gonna be boomers who have all the capital and it's probably gonna be early Gen X. As part of that they're just gonna end up having their kids live at home and raising and caring for their kids. For the kids entire life. That's sad.

[Jessica Rose]

That is sad. And it's very eastern like parenting and like lifestyle. Like I come from like India. Right. And like India people live with multi generational. Multi generational.

[Erica]

That's interesting. So maybe it's like a return actually.

[Jessica Rose]

To that a little bit. Yeah. Where it's like the top of the house, whoever the top of the house household, like the patriarch or matriarch. It's like trickle down from them. You're still living with your parents, you're still living with them and you're. It's a family business or of sorts.

[Erica]

Like maybe we're getting back to like that type of community where it's family community, multiple generations. There's not, that's actually not a bad thing when you, when you think about it there's in that terms.

[Jessica Rose]

Yeah.

[Erica]

Real value to it because you're not.

[Jessica Rose]

As isolated anymore and you're not from your. Away from your family as much. In that ways it's good. But then the personal identity wise, it's.

[Erica]

Hard for your identity, it's hard for your personal development and exploration. Like if you're taking to your bed as a rebellion against burnout, you're not experiencing that much. I actually would wonder if these. I said this to my son where I was like, would you rather be at home? We were, I'm. We had played a mega game of would you rather. I was like, would you rather be home without a phone and like no Internet or at nerd camp? And he was like, like I guess, I guess I'll stick it out. I was like, okay.

[Jessica Rose]

The funny thing to me is Like, I did. I don't even think I know. Knew the term burnout as a freshman high school kid or, like, middle school kid. Like, the fact that, like, he brought up.

[Erica]

It's funny that it's like a vernacular. I know it's interesting, but that's. Burnout is a thing. I think you guys. Jessica Rose, you think about burnout. I think you guys think about burnout. My generation, like, you wouldn't.

[Jessica Rose]

A couple years ago, like, it came into my. I didn't think about it until, I think, 2023. What? That's when, like, the term came into my, like, world of being, like, oh, like, okay, I'm working a lot. I'm, like, constantly working. I'm night, day, whatever it is. I'm just shooting, editing, shooting and trying to make something out of it. And then, like, this term burnout came, and then I was like, oh, like the. The tiredness I feel is a burnout or is it just exhaustion? Like, I think there's a difference.

[Erica]

You're like, I'm busy and tired. So I agree. Maybe that should be our strategic word today, is burnout.

[Jessica Rose]

Oh, yeah.

[Erica]

Okay, so we'll make. We're going to come back to burnout. All right, so our next Current event is. Oh, I loved this one. Okay, so I was big in quoting Elon Musk stuff this morning, which is oddly disturbing, but whatever, here we are. So Elon Musk has dropped a new email to the Tesla people. Did you see that? Linda Yakarino quit X? So the CEO of X resigned, which is kind of interesting. That was kind of like a tumultuous period. She was a very big deal, very well regarded in the ad industry. Went to go run Twitter at the time. Started working for Musk. Musk was like, fuck you, advertisers. And her. Like, basically her job was to woo advertisers. I have to imagine that was a very, very difficult marriage. But anyway, so in this case, Elon Musk sent an email out to Tesla employees that the subject line read, to be super clear, everyone at Tesla is required to spend a minimum of 40 hours in the office per week. Moreover, the office must be where your actual colleagues are located, not some remote pseudo office. If you don't show up, we'll assume you've resigned. This is very Doge ish. The more senior you are, the more visible must be your presence. This is why I lived in the factory so much that those on the front line could see me working alongside them. If I had not done that, Tesla would long ago. Have gone bankrupt. I think this is a super interesting piece. I actually been thinking a lot about this. I was reading something else where it was describing all the mistakes companies make by bringing in consultants. It was talking about, I forget the company, but it was talking about a company that brought in Deloitte and then it brought in Price Waterhouse and then it brought in McKinsey, and then it brought in like all these consultants. And it really didn't get the business anywhere. And the reality is you have to fix a company from within and you have to fix a company at the foundation. And this point I agree with wholeheartedly is like, you gotta walk the factory floor. You gotta fix the factory. And I always am like, I've gotta get better at that. So anyways, so he goes on to say, there are of course companies that don't require this, but when was the last time they shipped a great new product? It's been a while. He's so sarcastic. Tesla has and will create and actually manufacture the most exciting and meaningful products of any company on earth. This will not happen by phoning it in. So I thought that was. I'm sure there was a huge amount of backlash on that, but this is definitely old school. This is definitely harsh. But you can't fault him for the passion. And I think being direct, it was interesting. I read this morning Sherwin Williams, the paint company, has insisted that everybody's back to office five days a week. And obviously you're seeing this thing happen now where companies that want to innovate, companies that want to grow, companies that want to evolve, are insisting on people being in office. You're seeing a huge backlash of, like, fuck these people. I don't want to work there. And then you hear about the job market where it's getting so hard to get a job and it's. There's going to be this whole crash of all those things together. People in bed rebelling against burnout, CEOs insisting that you get your ass back to the office. The like, I hate my job. I think every employee is going to hate their job. Like, I think all employee surveys are just going to be dumpster fires from here on out, because you're seeing all these things, plus a tight economy, plus a lot of consumer uncertainty, plus a pending recession. And it's just tough. Okay, so our next topic is from Impact, which is a brand I follow on Instagram. And they have released a study saying that early career women, so women in their 20s are more likely to face ageism compared to young men and that what it essentially says is that career women, young, early career women in the workforce, are more likely to face ageism compared to young men, with nearly 50% of women under 30 in the workforce saying their age has negatively impacted their work. I don't know if this is true or not. I. I would guess that there is a bias against young women and there is a stereotype and a prejudice that young women are ditzy or spacey or not to be taken seriously or just want to get drunk and hook up all the time that maybe young men aren't subject to. I actually think there's ageism on both sides of the spectrum. I think that older people in offices, like my mother just watched the Intern with Robert De Niro and Anne Hathaway. She was like, you really should watch this. I was like, I can't watch anything about work. But I do think it probably hits on both ends of the spectrum. I think women in general, in history have faced more stereotypes than men and more prejudice, obviously. But I also think it probably depends on industry and person and management team, and that anybody who wants to be taken seriously at work, I think can find a job and a sector and a person to work for who takes them seriously and helps to grow them. Now, work. Do you want to introduce yourself?

[Summer Nelson]

I would love to introduce myself. My name is Summer Nelson. I am a rising senior at UCLA and I'm a content and social intern at Food52.

[Erica]

Is this your first internship?

[Summer Nelson]

No, I've had a variety out in la.

[Erica]

Okay.

[Summer Nelson]

But I work with barstool and do, like, their UCLA socials. I've also interned at tmz. I work at UCLA Student media as, like, an intern.

[Erica]

Okay.

[Summer Nelson]

And.

[Erica]

And your parents were okay with you coming to New York City for the summer?

[Summer Nelson]

Yeah, I'm from Maryland originally and actually was here last summer, so it's my second summer out in soho.

[Erica]

And so you're a Viceroy?

[Summer Nelson]

Yes, exactly.

[Erica]

Do they call girls still Viceroys? You're part of the Viceroy program.

[Summer Nelson]

You're a Viceroy if you're with, like, the barstool itself. And then it's something different if you're with chicks, I think, oh, really? Yeah.

[Erica]

What do they call them?

[Summer Nelson]

Or it might be.

[Erica]

No, it's all the same. I think we call them, like, chick Viceroys, which is probably a terrible thing to say.

[Summer Nelson]

Okay.

[Erica]

And so now you have an intern with internship with Food52. Do you like it? I love it.

[Summer Nelson]

And I actually post it on TikTok. And I'm always like, I'm baking A cake today on my internship. Like, it's always fun and it's like a great work environment.

[Erica]

Yeah. Okay. And how do you. So you're clearly. Summer's a woman who has many internships, who wear a lot of different hats. How do you approach why do you want to have internships and what do you try to get out of them?

[Summer Nelson]

I think in this day and age, it's a really important thing to have, like, work place experience. Like, anybody, I think, can be experienced, like, over LinkedIn. But really being able to show that you can, like, be in the workplace and have these professional experiences is, like, in my opinion, the only way to be able to, like, land a good job post grad. And I think that's changed a lot over the years. So being able to, like, get in the workplace the younger you are as the years go on, I think is super important. So.

[Erica]

And do you feel, like, burnt out or stressed with the schoolwork and doing all this, like, how to use the word burnout? That's a big topic here.

[Summer Nelson]

You can do burnout for sure. I think, like, as you manage all these things, it's definitely, like, possible, but I think I just have this, like, fire to work a lot. Like, I love working.

[Erica]

Okay.

[Summer Nelson]

And so I do, like, managing a lot of things at the same time. Like, when I was at TMZ, my work day was from like 6am to like 4pm, only two days a week. But, like, doing school at the same time, that's tough, you know?

[Erica]

Yeah, that's hard.

[Summer Nelson]

But I like the grind. I always like, how did you.

[Erica]

That's great. How did you. Why? Why 6:00am? I. Oh, because you're on east coast time. Okay. And how do you balance, like, a social life or your dating life and a party life and a work life? Like, how do you do that?

[Summer Nelson]

People ask a lot, actually. And that's why UCLA is honestly a perfect place for me because it's so work hard, play hard, that, like, my friends are very motivating.

[Erica]

Okay.

[Summer Nelson]

And I think I found great people there. Shout out to all my friends. I love them that they are also very driven and, like, motivated, whether they're pre med, whether they're also in a communications major.

[Erica]

Like, all the girls are, like, in it to win it. Okay. And are the guys in it to.

[Summer Nelson]

Win it or no, A little less so the ones in banking, for sure. But I think the girls definitely have their head on straight there, and that's so interesting. Yeah.

[Erica]

So, like, when you. Do you date guys?

[Summer Nelson]

I mean. Yeah, I try But I am single, so.

[Erica]

Okay, maybe somebody. So. But like, do you. When you start, you have to ask now, Jessica Rose.

[Summer Nelson]

You do.

[Erica]

I'm like, I asked someone, I went to dinner the other night and I was sitting next to a person who was gay and I was sitting across from someone. I had no idea. And I really could care less. But I was like, is your partner? Because everybody calls everybody a partner at this point. So I'm like, is your what? Is your partner? And they were like, what?

[Unidentified Colleague]

I've gone forever about that topic.

[Erica]

Did I do something wrong?

[Unidentified Colleague]

Co opted partner.

[Erica]

I did not partner. I have not co opted anything from anybody. I just want to be super clear. Do you say partner?

[Summer Nelson]

I would not say partner.

[Erica]

Same.

[Summer Nelson]

See, I assume when someone says partner that, like, you're not in a heterosexual relationship.

[Erica]

Same.

[Summer Nelson]

Yeah, but. But I do agree on TikTok. Sometimes it like throws me off when they say that.

[Erica]

But I think everybody says partner now because they think it's PC.

[Jessica Rose]

Yeah, I think that's a good. That's great.

[Erica]

Yay or nay? Just gross. Yay. But you're like, that's our term or what?

[Unidentified Colleague]

So, like, I think it's. I do the same thing. I'm like, if you're saying partner, I'm assuming you're not straight. Like that. That's just my immediate. And then it's like, so as I think especially, like, women in the workplace will do that a lot where they'll refer to their boyfriend as their partner. And like, it's always the most, like, genderqueer looking girl. So you're like, already, I don't care.

[Summer Nelson]

Oh, my God.

[Unidentified Colleague]

They'll tell you exactly the same. Like, it's always a girl that, like, looks like she would be a lesbian.

[Jessica Rose]

Or like, I'm glad you're saying all.

[Summer Nelson]

This and that I said these things.

[Erica]

How are we gonna. Can we hear her? We can hear her.

[Jessica Rose]

We can hear her, but we can't see her.

[Erica]

That's bad. But okay. Oh, I don't care either. But I find that more guys say it than girls.

[Jessica Rose]

I think it's because as somebody who has, like, in my head, I'm always like, oh, like, should I say girlfriend or partner or what? It's because I just don't want to. It's a PC culture thing. It's just like, I want to be making sure it's part. Become part of the vernacular where it's like, it's safe, you know, it's.

[Erica]

Yeah, you're not going to offend anybody with a partner thing.

[Jessica Rose]

Yeah.

[Erica]

Why? Because. Are you supposed to think that women would feel. Would not want to be called a girlfriend?

[Jessica Rose]

I think so. There's part of my, like, thought process of being like, I don't know, in the last five years, so much has changed where it's like, oh, like, how do you refer to your again? I was gonna say partner, but like your girlfriend, it's just like, would you.

[Erica]

Care if somebody called you a girlfriend, Summer?

[Summer Nelson]

No, I think I like that from my point of view. That's normal, I think. Yeah.

[Erica]

I love when women say that. I have a wife. It's my favorite thing ever. I think it's the cutest thing ever. I love that. Anyways, all right, whatever. Who cares? So back to you. Okay, so I think what's great about one, I think that's awesome. I love to work in college and I think if you have the fire to work, it's awesome. And you can. You obviously will be so successful because you know how to work.

[Summer Nelson]

Thank you. Let's hope you will.

[Erica]

When I was your age, the internships were unpaid. So it was like you were allowed to have unpaid internships, which is really quite bananas. Like, it was tough to break in because you couldn't if you had to work and if you needed money, you had to choose waitressing or you had to choose a job that would pay versus a job that could further your quote unquote career. So I think that mandating that interns get paid is a good thing.

[Summer Nelson]

I agree. I worked in a restaurant when I was 15 and for a few years and then even was getting internships in L. A And like, especially the creative spaces tend to obviously pay like lower than like banking and stuff like that. And it was tough to honestly leave those jobs where I'm not like furthering my career necessarily, but like being a self sufficient college student, like, you do need the money to, you know, so it's hard to make the trade off.

[Erica]

Totally. I used to have internships and then I would like go waitress all night because I was like, I need to make money, but I want the experience. And I actually think doing both was a. That was like a good life lesson for me. Definitely. All right, what else do I need to ask Summer?

[Jessica Rose]

I don't know, maybe Summer, if you want to tell her the book story.

[Summer Nelson]

Oh, I knew he was going to bring this up. Okay. So I told Sarthik this. We have been going on these home tours together where we have like two and a half hours in this Uber upstate and we've gone into like, Every topic ever. So I was like, oh, have you read Erica's book?

[Erica]

Like, what did Sarthik say?

[Summer Nelson]

Have you read Erica's book?

[Erica]

I did.

[Jessica Rose]

I said I was Sparknoted. That's what I told you.

[Erica]

Honestly, Sarthik's like, fuck, no. Why would I read that trash?

[Jessica Rose]

I'm not a reader. I'm a very visual artist. Audio listening person.

[Summer Nelson]

Yeah.

[Erica]

Okay. So Summer asks, arethink, had you read my book? Had you read my book?

[Summer Nelson]

Yes.

[Erica]

Okay, well, that's great. What'd you think?

[Summer Nelson]

Recently read it, but there's a funny story behind it. Oh, wow. So this is the story I told him. I was like, I've actually known who you are for a long time because I'm very inspired by you, girlboss.

[Erica]

Oh, that's nice.

[Summer Nelson]

And have been like, I don't want to go to Barstool. Oh, sorry, that's not on you. Barstool. For, like, a while. So I saw when you wrote your book and you posted on your Instagram story, you did these book chains.

[Erica]

Oh, are you part of the book chain?

[Summer Nelson]

So I tried to be part of the book chain. So I ordered the book through the form, DM'd you and everything. And then it came to my sorority house when I was a junior in college. Moving out. Missed the shipment. So I was in Maryland. From Maryland. The book is in la. I have someone ship the book from LA to Maryland, but at this point, I've already moved to New York for the summer. And so I keep playing, like, musical chairs with this book. And then. And literally, when we got in communication about this internship, I called my mom, and I was like, mom, remember that book laying around? Have you seen it in a long time? Cause it was in my house since the summer. And she was like, no, no, that's probably lost call. Yeah. And then I'm actually moving right now at home. And two weeks after we first got in communication, she sent me a photo, and she's like, you're never gonna guess what I just found. And it was the book. So, honestly, I did ruin the book chain. I hate to admit it, but I've had it for a long time. And finally that's, like, fate. That's amazing.

[Erica]

That book chain. Oh, my God. So the book chain. So Devin and I put together the book chain. Devin from Barstool. And we had, like, 500 people signed up for the book chain. And I remember being in my kitchen on a Saturday morning, and I had, like, 50 copies of the book. And I went to the post office with 50. I hand Drew every envelope. I like printed all the stuff out. I went to Kinko's and Staples. I did like the whole thing. Sent it all out. It was a little bit stressful. And all the book chains got broken. Like the most DMs I got were not people who read the book. It was like, where's my book? Where's my book? I'm on chain 17. And nobody ever sent it because in.

[Summer Nelson]

The first slide I have the book here actually with me and it says, oh, two from Erica and stuff.

[Erica]

Oh, that's so fun.

[Summer Nelson]

But I never got to pass it on.

[Erica]

Oh, well, what did you think about it? It?

[Summer Nelson]

The book? I thought it was great and I like it. Yeah, I loved it. And I loved how it was so colloquial and kind of easier to break down.

[Erica]

Yeah, it's like spoken like a human.

[Summer Nelson]

Yeah, exactly. So I feel like I was talking to you.

[Erica]

You should try it. Sartha.

[Jessica Rose]

I'll take the book Chain.

[Erica]

Yeah, you can do the first one on the audio.

[Jessica Rose]

Yes, I will do that.

[Erica]

Which is annoying though. Like I would get. Not if I worked with me. I would not want to have my voice and like, trust me, listen to that. Like, I already got airplane. Don't worry about it.

[Summer Nelson]

That's why he's always wearing airplane.

[Erica]

What do you guys think about the home tours?

[Summer Nelson]

Oh, so I love the home tours.

[Erica]

Home tours are awesome.

[Summer Nelson]

Poor Sarthic. I've actually never. I've barely worked in production just like slightly as a PA a few times. So I don't know exactly that much about like a physical, like high tech camera. Much more of like an iPhone girl.

[Erica]

Yeah.

[Summer Nelson]

And so he's dealing with all this like high tech production stuff and I'm like, anyway, I can help you. Please. I will.

[Jessica Rose]

You were very helpful.

[Erica]

That's great.

[Summer Nelson]

But the homes are beautiful and it's so cool to see. Honestly, the way he interviews, I was like super inspired and wholesale. It's not that great, but it is really great. And it was so cool to see how he can manage literally every aspect of that production. So I'm really excited to see the ones that I've been on the shoot for launch.

[Erica]

That's so great.

[Summer Nelson]

It was awesome.

[Erica]

Did you go to the ones in Connecticut?

[Summer Nelson]

One in Connecticut, one in New York.

[Erica]

Do you go to Nikki's house?

[Jessica Rose]

No, that was Caitlin and I. Nikki was. I think we won to Anna. And the second one was which. The one up where we got lost.

[Summer Nelson]

Where was that one? Stanford.

[Jessica Rose]

Stanford. Okay. Yeah, great. Yeah. Millbrook Millbrook.

[Erica]

Millbrook. I've never been there. I don't know what that is. That's awesome.

[Summer Nelson]

Awesome. And really beautiful at home. So.

[Erica]

So when do you go back to school?

[Summer Nelson]

Not till, like, September 22nd.

[Erica]

Oh, really? How long are you staying with us for?

[Summer Nelson]

Well, only till August 31, because New York leases are not cheap.

[Erica]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

[Summer Nelson]

That's great. I know. Well, I'm so glad you're here.

[Erica]

Thank you so much.

[Summer Nelson]

Thank you.

[Erica]

That was great. Teaching segment. All right, we're doing our teaching segment. I saw something on LinkedIn the other day called the Charisma Wheel, and I really liked it, so I wanted to share it as part of our teaching segment. So what the Charisma Wheel does, and we'll show it here, is it has, I don't know, about nine things in it, which helps you have presence and helps you connect with other people. And I think regardless of how smart you are, how senior you are, how accomplished you are, how many people report to you, how long you've been in your job, if you can harness your own charisma and create a connection with other people, you can be really successful. I often marvel at work. I saw something on Instagram the other day that's like, the longer you work, do you think the more you think people are idiots? I 100 million percent think that's true. But the other thing that I always come back to is it's always the basic stuff that people miss, which is connection and communication. So the Charisma wheel looks at 10 things. First is using people's names. So if you want to create a sense of presence, if you want to create a sense of connection, remember the person's name. Right? Just say their name, remember their name, use their name. Sounds stupid. It's not. The second is to mirror body language. So I don't know if anybody's seen this, but if someone's meeting with you and they're crossing their legs, if you cross their legs and mirror how that person is facing you and presenting themselves to you, it creates more affinity between you and that person. Ask real questions. So I think one of the things, whether you're interviewing for a job, whether you're advocating for yourself, whether you're trying to make a point, having substantive things to say always matters. Whenever I try to go into a conversation where I have to get something done, I always write it down beforehand. I think anybody who knows me knows that I never say more than three things, but I always try to say the three things in different Ways and in different combinations to make the same point. And I always, always, always try to have the things have substance. And substance is defined by the person and means something a little bit different to everybody. But making sure that you are making value out of a person's time and making sure that when you have something to say, that that. That something is worthwhile is super important. I had a PLL board meeting yesterday, and there's a lot of people talking about this, that, this, that, this, that. And I was like, God, I haven't said one thing in this entire board meeting. And then I was starting to feel like, a little bit badly, like, ooh, am I offering value? And then what I realized is I'm like, no. When I say something, I want it to have purpose and I want it to have substance, and I want it to have meaning. And it's not worth saying something if it doesn't take the conversation further, or if it does, forward the progression of the conversation or the meaning of the meeting overall. Speak more slowly. So slow talking. I struggle with slow talking, but by not rushing through your words, it can help people understand them. And by choosing your words thoughtfully, that can have a huge, huge meaning. So use people's names, mirror their language. Ask real questions. Speak more slowly. Don't fill up the silence. So own your pauses is the next one, which is don't fill the void. Let there be an uncomfortable silence. Let there be a break. Let there be a moment and a gap so that someone else can jump in with what they have to say. I think this is one has taken me a long time to learn, but it always, always, always works, which is, say less. Tell a short story. Be relatable, be meaningful, Create an analogy. Be human in the conversation. Match people's energy. If someone is coming to you, high energy, be high energy. If someone's coming to you in a softer, quiet energy, be thoughtful and soft in your own energy. I'm the least bought into this one. I think you have to have your own energy. I also think sometimes when people come into a conversation really hot or angry or crazy, that you being calm and centered can actually be a better way to have that conversation. But in general, I think charismatic people have energy and charisma and passion, and if you can meet and match that, it will give you more presence with those people. Adjust your posture is the next one. So making sure I saw something else the other day of if you're public speaking, if you're trying to convey a big point like plant your feet and have something to Say, I think dancing around and fidgeting around is distracting. I remember I gave this huge presentation at Yahoo. It was like the first sales conference I'd ever been a part of. And I was nervous. I was very, very, very nervous. And I moved. Like, I kept pacing when I was talking instead of planting. And I remember going to talk to the CEO after, and she just like, blasted me for pacing. And I was like, ah. It made me feel so small and insignificant. But it was a good reminder that if you can plant and hold steady, your words can carry more meaning. Compliment the details. Pay attention to the details and compliment them. Smile genuinely and with warmth. And that's it. So Those are the 10 things. Do with it what you will. All right, strategery. All right, we're back to strategery. We are choosing burnout as our strategery word today. Okay. Okay. We are agreeing that burnout is a maybe an old word, but it's an old word that has taken on new meaning with a vengeance. So burnout in a work context refers to a state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion caused by prolonged or excessive stress. It's characterized by feelings of cynicism, detachment, and reduced professional efficacy. Burnout is considered an occupational phenomenon, specifically as a syndrome resulting from chronic workplace stress that hasn't been successfully managed. All right, so my two cents on this is this. What I just described is real. I'm not sure burnout is real if you haven't been in the workforce for more than, I don't know, 10, 12, 24, 36 months. And two, if you've decided as a result of it, you have to take to your bed from that 10, 12, 36, 48 months. So I think burnout is one of those words that's gonna get thrown around a lot, which is really dangerous because one, I do think there are people who are burnt out. I do think there are people who are in workplaces that are chronically stressful. And I do think that that level of stress can have a very negative impact on your psyche and a very negative impact on. I think the problem here is that burnout is going to be Kleenexed. Like, everybody's going to use the word burnout when they've had a rough week or their boss yells at them, or they're hungover on a Thursday. Like, the burnout word kind of becomes a catch all for being dissatisfied and tired, when in reality, it's actually a pretty serious situation. So that's my. My advice would be to not use the burnout word, unless you are, in fact, burnt out. If you are burnt out, you should talk to somebody like a professional or someone in healthcare or a doctor. And I think if you are just feeling unfulfilled, unsatisfied and hi. Oh, you look pretty today. If you're just feeling unfulfilled and unsatisfied or stressed and tired, I think in a lot of ways those things are very solvable. And you either have to solve things within yourself or you've got to solve where you work. Work. All right. So not measuring yourself by an old yardstick, big topic in my head right now. I also, Danielle from our Work Like a Girl Advisory Board, had a great thought today that she shared that she and her partner always share, which she said, if not this, then something better. And I think my parting thoughts today beyond don't measure yourself by somebody else's yardstick or your old yardstick is that if you're in a tough spot and if you're not happy with where you are or you're feeling stuck or overwhelmed or you're in a situation that isn't good, there is always something better. And I think it's good to keep in mind because I think a lot of us default to if this is bad, whatever else is out there has to be worse or it's going to be worse. And the reality is that's most often not true. And that I wrote about this and nobody cares is that most people are optimists and you're going to say it worked out anyway. So I really loved both of those things, which is a constant reminder to be good to yourself and to set new standards and accept where you are and where you want to go. And then the second piece is that if it's not going great or you are struggling or things are hard, that if you don't want to do this, you can go do something better. If this doesn't work out, there's something else out there. So that's it for this episode. We'll see you back here next week. Give us a rating or give us a review. Go to work like a girl. Slack if you haven't. And we have a big event coming up on August 5th with Schoolhouse, which I think is sold out, but we will do another one called At Home at Work and we will see you back here next week.