WORK 2025 In Review: A Lot of Great Things Can Come Out of A Little Mess.

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Work with Erika Ayers Badan
Episode: WORK 2025 In Review: A Lot of Great Things Can Come Out of A Little Mess
Host: Erika Ayers Badan
Date: January 11, 2026

This episode serves as a reflective and insightful wrap-up of the year, blending humorous moments, candid life and work stories, expert interviews, and hands-on advice about leadership, adapting to change, workplace culture, and personal growth. Erika looks back at the podcast’s evolution, shares learnings from the year, and spotlights key guests for their perspectives on everything from financial metrics to generational shifts at work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcast Year in Review and Growth

• Erika celebrates the podcast’s progress, experimentation, and new initiatives like "Work Like a Girl" and the Substack launch.
  • Quote: “We’ve spent a year trying things and you’re beginning to see the benefits and the excitement and the fruits of that labor. And that’s really how I feel.” (00:00)
• Emphasis on the value of making mistakes and trying something new.

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2. Understanding EBITDA in Business

• Guest: George Wells (The Wells Group)
  • Erika and George reflect on their time at Barstool Sports during a pivotal transition and acquisition.
  • George explains EBITDA:
    • Stands for “Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization.” (03:35)
    • Why use it: Neutralizes differences like debt or previous losses to compare companies more objectively.
    • Quote: “EBITDA is the biggest proxy for a company’s success… On Wall Street, it sort of sounds like a fake metric but the benefits of EBITDA versus net income are almost obvious when I explain it.” (02:35)
  • Discusses the changing pressures on media businesses and financial clarity required in corporate transitions.

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3. Making the Most of New Tech (AI & GPT)

• Erika shares her evolving approach to using AI tools—being pleasant to GPT and the surprising value in that.
  • Quote: “I have started conversing with my GPT before I ask GPT to do things for me and GPT likes it... when GPTs take over the world, I feel like they're going to just sort people by who's nice to GPT and who's not.” (06:00)
• Practical example: Uses GPT for summarizing industry articles to boost daily productivity.

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4. Career Journeys and Starting Out

• Guest: (Max, founder, previously at Yext)
  • Long stint at Yext, moving from investment banking to startup life and eventually starting his own company.
  • Insights on the less intimidating reality of entrepreneurship.
  • The importance of developing multiple skills (product, design, marketing, coding) rather than pigeonholing into narrow product manager roles.

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5. Tips for Product & Software Careers in an AI-Heavy World

• Focus on multidisciplinary skill sets due to AI.
  • Quote: “The people we want to hire are people who can really jump around to a lot of different skills... leveraging the latest AI tools helps you around the edges.” (10:27)
• Product managers need both technical and user empathy.
• Modern tools now allow much faster, deeper user/customer research.

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6. Fun & Human Moments: “Girl Puppy Babies” Calendar Mishap

• A lighthearted segment where Erika and her team discover an odd entry (“Girl Puppy Babies”) on Erika’s calendar, leading to a comedic investigation and bonding moment. (13:04–15:45)

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7. Client Calls & Professional Communication

• Tips on reading the room, tailoring communication, and not assuming based on age.
  • Success on client calls comes from putting yourself in the client’s mindset, not your own agenda.
  • Quote: “Forget what you want, what is it that they want and how do you deliver them.” (16:55)
• Discussion on “vibe” as a generational term—millennials may already sound dated using it!

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8. Essential Career Advice: Take Notes & Stay Organized

• Erika’s pet peeve: People not writing things down in meetings.
  • Quote: “If people actually just wrote stuff down when people said it, so much more shit would get done at work.” (19:30)
• Whether typing or using AI, documenting action items and knowledge is crucial.

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9. The Future of Work: Predictions & Ideas

• Guest highlights four immediate strategies for leaders and employees:
  1. New employee models (part-time with benefits)
  2. Rethought office design & in-person norms
  3. Shifting from “zone of control” to “zone of influence” in leadership
  4. Embracing machine-human collaboration
• Companies will be more cloud-based with most “employees” outside traditional formats.
  • Quote: “If work is so central... why are we not rethinking work while we're rethinking everything else?” (23:40)

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10. Social Media Ecosystem and Building Trust Online

• Instagram as the “authority download” for someone’s presence; YouTube for deeper content/relationship.
• Quote: “We’re making money on a basis of trust... The funny thing about trust is it's gained in drops and dropped in buckets.” (26:28)
• Brands risk a lot by handing trust to influencers; can be both a powerful and risky proposition.

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11. Embracing Change: Why It’s Hard & How to Cope

• Change is scary because of the grief over lost certainty, triggers insecurity, and creates a feeling of powerlessness.
• Quote: “Every experience of change is actually a little bit of a mourning or a grieving process because you have to let go of what was and what you thought might be and you have to accept the new thing, even if you think it's better.” (27:59)
• Erika reframes work as “tuition you get paid for,” urging listeners to get as much as they can from every job—even tough ones.

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12. Boundaries, Clarity, and Avoiding Workplace Swirl

• Setting boundaries and keeping people focused on their core responsibilities.
  • Advice: “There’s a difference between being someone who advises and gives input… versus I’m not running it and I’m not the decision maker.” (33:05–33:19)
• Consistency, role clarity, and calling the ball on responsibilities can prevent organizational burnout.

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13. Generational Perspectives & Career Mindset

• The “social contract” between employer and employee is dead; loyalty is no longer a given.
  • Quote: “Why are you upset if I have a side hustle...because quite frankly, technology is killing us. So you see the tension…” (35:20)
• To succeed: Never give up, don’t take no for an answer, don’t be paralyzed by fear of imperfection or others’ opinions.
  • Quote: “It doesn't need to be perfect. Just get out there and start doing it and you can change it along the way.” (37:23)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “We’ve spent a year trying things and you’re beginning to see the benefits and the excitement and the fruits of that labor.” — Erika (00:00)
• “EBITDA is the biggest proxy for a company’s success… On Wall Street, it sort of sounds like a fake metric but the benefits...are almost obvious when I explain it.” — George (02:35)
• “I have started conversing with my GPT before I ask GPT to do things for me and GPT likes it.” — Erika (06:00)
• “Forget what you want, what is it that they want and how do you deliver them.” — Erika (16:55)
• “If people actually just wrote stuff down when people said it, so much more shit would get done at work.” — Erika (19:30)
• “If work is so central... why are we not rethinking work while we're rethinking everything else?” — Guest (23:40)
• “We’re making money on a basis of trust... gained in drops, dropped in buckets.” — Guest (26:28)
• “Every experience of change is actually a little bit of a mourning or a grieving process...” — Guest (27:59)
• “It doesn't need to be perfect. Just get out there and start doing it and you can change it along the way.” — Guest (37:23)

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Structure of the Episode

1. Celebratory year-in-review and evolution of the podcast
2. In-depth financial acumen about EBITDA and what it reveals about businesses
3. Playful insights into AI (GPT) and improving work through tech
4. Career pathways—transitioning from old-school jobs to entrepreneurship
5. Building competitive, versatile skills as the future of product management
6. Workplace laughs—team camaraderie via calendar mix-ups
7. Navigating client relationships, vibes, and generational “language”
8. The nuts-and-bolts of workplace effectiveness (the art of note-taking)
9. Reimagining work structures, the role of tech, and leadership
10. Social media as personal/professional trust engines
11. How to embrace, mourn, and move through change in turbulent times
12. Clarity, boundaries, and maintaining team focus amid chaos
13. How to approach your career proactively—take chances, don’t seek perfect, and don’t give up

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Tone and Style

• The episode is candid, witty, and practical—true to Erika's unfiltered, “real talk” approach.
• Moments of humor and relatable chaos are balanced by sharp business advice and big-picture thinking about careers and culture.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This end-of-year episode of “Work” is a microcosm of Erika Ayers Badan’s signature style: equal parts mentorship, humor, practical advice, and empathy. Listeners will leave with a sense of possibility even in messy scenarios, clear-eyed tactics for modern career challenges, and the reassurance that great things really can come out of a little productive mess.

Transcript

[A]

All right, welcome back to work. This is the end of the year episode. We did it. We made it. We're here. We're going to create a mashup for you of funny moments, good moments, our best moments, hopefully. This has been, I think, a good year for the pod. What has happened for us? I think we've kind of figured out who we are and what we are. We launched Work Like a Girl this year. We launched Substack this year. We moved the podcast this year. We tried Lemonada this year, and they were awesome. We've spent a year trying to figure out our voice, trying to figure out our mission, trying to figure out our mantra, trying to figure out our rhythm. And when I look back on a year, you can't help but feel really positive when you've spent a year trying things and you're beginning to see the benefits and the excitement and the fruits of that labor. And that's really how I feel. So here's to that. Work, work.

[B]

Now.

[A]

Work. All right, so this segment, we're going to learn about something related to business. A lot of times at work, people just bullshit that they know what everybody's talking about, myself included. And so today's topic is ebitda, which I think most people don't understand what it means, but somehow are like, I think that means margin. So we have brought George Wells. George Wells created the Wells group. I started working with George. I don't know how many years ago. George.

[C]

Three.

[A]

Three years ago, almost four years ago. We brought George in because the CFO of Barstool Sports had left and we needed a pro and we were staring down the Penn acquisition. And how was that experience for you?

[C]

I would say it was one of the most life defining stints of my career.

[D]

Oh, that's awesome.

[A]

It was really fun. Terrible, but fun.

[C]

It was exciting. It was exhilarating. It was sort of like an episode of Succession.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And I live for that.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was also so important that we. We had just to set some context. So we kind of ran things kind of loose at Barstool, and then Pen showed up and we were like, like scratch on the record. Like, everything has to be recorded. Everything has to be documented. Documented. We had the Sarbanes Oxley thing. When I remember I made the joke about that, and they didn't like that very much. But you were such a godsend. You were so helpful. And then when I came to Food52, I was like, who's going to be my first call?

[C]

It's going to be George no, it's great. I think what's so exciting about the Penn transaction is, and it's actually dovetails into the definition of EBITDA is when I first started working on Wall Street 20 years ago, there's this joke amongst the finance bro set that is like, EBITDA, EBITDA, EBITda. Even when people get drunk, this is sort of like what they chant because it's the biggest proxy for a company's success. And at Penn, in the barstool of it all, they were obsessed with our ebitda, as you know. Um, and so as we traverse the year media landscape changing, political witch hunts in the newspaper affecting our revenue and bottom line, we really pushed to hit the EBITDA numbers like crazy hard, hard. And then on Wall street, it's sort of like it sounds like a fake metric because as someone that studied accounting in undergrad, you think about net income. But the benefits of EBITDA versus net income are almost obvious when I explain the definition of ebitda. So EBITDA stands for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. Net income is just your net income. And so interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization are deducted from your gross earnings to derive your net income.

[A]

So EBITDA is the company makes money, right? And then you have payroll costs, and then you have marketing spend, and then you have cogs, which is cost of goods sold, which maybe we'll do in a different episode. Then you do the ebitda. Like, all the money that goes out the door goes to the government. It goes to lenders. Lenders, people who you owe money to.

[D]

The.

[A]

The money sucks out the door, and what you are left with is how much money is in your bank account.

[C]

Well, even. Yes, of course. But then you want to say yes.

[A]

Because I don't actually know what I'm talking about.

[C]

No, that I think you do.

[D]

But.

[C]

The difference is interest. A comp. One company versus another can have the same revenue, marketing spend, cost, blah, blah, blah. But if one has debt and one does not, then the interest for the one with debt will lower its net income.

[A]

Sure, that makes sense. Okay. So it really tells you the health of a company and in part because the interest is a very big variable. Who owes money and who doesn't.

[C]

Yeah, who owes money and who doesn't? And that really affects how an investor would treat one company versus another. So they want to neutralize the metric. Another is taxes. One business may have, like a lot of net operating losses that they're carrying forward because they bought a company that had lost money and now they can deduct that company's past losses against their income today. So you can also optimize your tax.

[A]

Payout by virtue of how much loss you have.

[C]

By virtue of how much loss you have, or if you're in Florida, you.

[A]

Probably have lower tax or another.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Things that I'm thinking about. Tips and tricks. So I'm going to give a GPT tip today. So I'm going to OpenAI next week, which I'm very. This week, actually, I'm going to open AI. I'm very excited about it and I've been thinking about my GPT and I'm realizing I really want to be as nice to my GPT as possible. Like, one question I would have for people is, are you yes or no, Are you nice or not nice to your GPT? I used to just tell GPT what I wanted and then I realized in hindsight that I don't actually believe in that in life. Like, you should try to be pleasant whenever possible. So I have. I have started conversing with my GPT before. I asked GPT to do things for me and GPT likes it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then when GPTs take over the world, I feel like they're going to just sort people by who's nice to GPT and who's not nice to GPT. And I'm hoping it's like Santa. I'm hoping GPT puts me on the nice list. So I think that's a great thing. I used GPT this morning. I think you can set up a feed for this, actually. But I just. Just do it manually where I had GPT summarize all sorts of articles, which was great for me. So I did Business of Home. I did Ad Week, I did Domino, I did ARC Digest. And it was so fast. It just, it amazes me how quickly, quickly it delivers things. So I felt smarter and more efficient this morning because I used GPT and was nice to my GPT. So I felt like I was doing a good job connecting with someone. Give us a quick bio on who's Max.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

So.

[D]

Previously I started my career at a company called Yext in New York City.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

I was there for 10 years.

[A]

Do you want to describe what YEXT is?

[D]

Yeah. Yext helps businesses get found. So mainly around local SEO. Originally, it focused on making sure name, address and phone was correct across all the different mapping sites. So in the beginning, like MapQuest, right out of college. Right out of college helps businesses. I did a stint in investment banking before that. It was terrible.

[A]

Where did you go to college?

[D]

I went to Princeton.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

Heard then I was interning at UBS for a summer. I got really good at Excel and PowerPoint and I worked a lot.

[A]

Can you make a pivot table?

[D]

I can very good at pivot table. So I was. At least I still can kind of AI can help me do it now. But I got really good at Excel, which is helpful.

[F]

That's important.

[D]

So then I joined YEXT right out of school. I thought I would take a paid cut a little bit. Not as much as I expected. At the time I didn't know much about tech and I was like, I've. I was a software engineering like minor at Princeton.

[G]

Okay.

[D]

And I was always. I was like, hey, let me try out the tech startup thing. Like, I don't know much. YEX was the first place I interviewed. I interviewed with the CEO Howard and Brian, who I'm now working with at Windmill. And I expected to stay there for a year or two.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And figure out what tech's all about. And in my head, the only people working tech are engineers, which is insane now to look back on, but that's kind of what I thought of. I didn't know anything. And so I ended up staying there for 10 years and did about 10 different roles over 10 years. When I left, I was running the product organization. So like product marketing and product management and design.

[A]

So your product guide research.

[D]

I'm a product guy then. I've always been interested in software engineering as well. I built a bunch of apps on the side which we can talk a little bit about.

[A]

We're going to get there. Don't spoil it.

[D]

And then I left about two years ago to start my own company.

[A]

Okay. And are you happy?

[D]

I'm very happy. I love it.

[A]

And what was the scariest thing about going out on your own?

[D]

I don't. It wasn't that scary. It's something I'd always wanted to do. I did running joke with my friends was that like, I can't believe it took you so long. And every year I would see them, I would tell people and they would ask, when are you leaving? And I would say next year. And that went on for about five years and then I eventually left. And no, it's been great. It has not been that scary, I don't think.

[A]

Do you. How did you deal with having no structure to your day? Like, how did you create structure for yourself?

[D]

Well, in the beginning. So in the beginning I was doing all the software Engineering. And so the structure was, hey, we have all this code that we need to write.

[A]

Just start coding.

[D]

And that's basically it, right? It was, we need to build a product, build an mvp. And for my product days, I understand kind of like what we need to build, and then I also know enough engineering to get it done. And so in the early days, this was late 2023, it was all about just building that initial MVP for this idea we had that we could start to show to customers.

[A]

Okay. And if you were talking to someone who at Princeton or some state school right now and you're like, what's your pitch to be a product and software engineering person?

[D]

I think, well, it's funny because I ran product, but I don't see myself ever really, really hiring pure product managers. At my company, I think especially we're pretty obsessed with AI and the impact of AI, and I think the people we want to hire are people who can really jump around to a lot of different skills. So between like product design, product marketing, product management, and engineering, really, I now think a single person can do a lot of that by leveraging the latest AI tools, help you around the edges. And so I think the pitch in general for product would be you get a lot of exposure in different areas. But I think someone who's just like a pure product manager who's not in the code at all and not in like design details at all, and not really in the product marketing side, like, you're kind of just like managing a backlog of features and like doing Jira stuff. Like, I don't think that's honestly a great place to be. Yeah, I think you want to be building and that can mean different things at different companies, but being really in the in the weeds, in the details of actually like the product that you're building, whether that's writing code or something more in the weeds, there I think is a much better place to start out.

[A]

You got to have the skill. Like, you have to have the hard skill.

[G]

Yes.

[D]

And a lot of times product is diminished to just managing a backlog of tasks, which I don't think is that valuable.

[A]

Product that way, I think production, product, brilliant. Product. People understand the customer, they're obsessed with the customer. They understand the business, they get the economics, they understand feature functionality and then how something should behave. And it's putting all of that together. But it's really interesting because I bet if you're a mediocre product person, you are just managing tickets.

[D]

That's what it is. Often it can get Especially in a bigger company, you get that product manager role. I think it can be kind of shoehorned into that, but I'm totally with you. And the cool thing is that now you don't need to hire like a user research team to have 20 different interviews. Right. You can start to leverage these tools where like a few weeks ago, I talked to 20 different customers in a day, recorded every call. You have all the transcripts.

[A]

I would do it.

[D]

And you don't need to, like, take notes. You don't need another team to synthesize all the information. And you just collect all this information and synthesize it. And I could do it all in a day myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And so you're able to do. Historically, like, the PM would be the center and work with all these other teams to get stuff done. I think increasingly you can be the center. You are the team, do the whole thing. And it's not like literally everything, but a lot closer to that than what it's been historically. And so the more in the weeds you are and understanding how all these different pieces fit together, that's the most important skill set I would say right now.

[A]

Okay, I love that. Lauren. Lauren, we have a question for you. How you doing? Don't be nervous. What did I do a month ago? Lauren, hi. How's it going? Hi.

[B]

Good. How are you?

[A]

Good. Lauren, we have a question, which is. What is Girl Puppy Babies? All right, Girl. Why is it on my calendar? Is it an accident? What did that. What just happened? Do you know what that is? Yeah. Wait, from. It is like the Atlantic guy. I was telling stars, not me having hives again. No, no, no. I'm telling Sarthik. This is like the whole signal texting like we're bombing Yemen and the reporters on there. I think you have a big girl tonight out and I'm on there by accident. I am so embarrassed. Okay.

[B]

I am so.

[A]

This is. I don't know how this happened because.

[B]

I was taken off your calendar.

[A]

Well, so what is it? It's a concert. Oh, my God.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

I bought it by accident. Okay, so wait, what is it? What are you doing Thursday? Yeah, we gotta Google this girl hick. Puppy. Baby's alright. It's a band called Girl Puppy and it's at Baby's alright, which is a venue in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg. So who's going?

[B]

Myself.

[A]

I bought a ticket for myself. How did it end up on my calendar, do you think? You guys, I want to die. No. This is amazing. We got a place. Place of Girl Puppy oh, my gosh, you guys, this is. This is wild. Well, so you're going by yourself? Are you gonna have a date or what are you gonna do? Definitely. Are we going together? You wanna come?

[E]

We are now.

[A]

Okay. Well, I always go. I always buy concert tickets ahead of time because I'm like, nervous.

[B]

In New York, they're gonna sell out.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

It's a small show.

[A]

I usually buy ticket. Two tickets. Okay, I'll, like, I'll invite someone. But this I just bought for myself. Oh, no. Do it, do it.

[H]

I'm like, is this the song you want to listen to?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, you guys just kind of like. I hate it.

[H]

I don't think.

[A]

Is this it? Why does she have teeth like that? It's kind of like she a vampire. Sad girl. Angry girl, I guess. Oh, my God, you guys, I'm dead.

[B]

Okay, so.

[A]

And I have to put it on.

[B]

My calendar so I don't forget.

[A]

I understand. I'm a calendar person and it just happened to end up on. See? See, I knew it. I know.

[B]

I'm really.

[A]

I've been staring at that thing. Don't be sorry. I've been staring at that thing forever and I'm like, I. I'm like, are we bringing puppies to the office?

[B]

I don't think.

[A]

I don't think I'll ever forgive, forget, or forgive myself for this. Oh, I love this. We're gonna keep it on there. How am I. How did that happen? I don't know, but I'm so glad it did. I have no idea. It says created by you. Well, we're so Go girl puppy. Go girl puppy. I agree. You can come.

[B]

You can come.

[A]

I'm good. I'm good. You're like, absolutely. I'm great at a concert. Okay. All right, well, thanks for doing that. Okay.

[H]

Just.

[A]

I'm going to slow walk out of here and crumble. No, you did a great job. Okay. As a 30. 30 year old professional. Kelly, how do you maintain a professional demeanor on client calls? What's your like, what's your approach?

[H]

That's a great question. I think on getting a read quickly on who you're talking to is important. You know, if you're in a room with somebody who. And it also depends on the client. It depends on the industry. I think that's very important as well. I think you have to get a read on them and make a decision very quickly of how you're gonna approach the conversation. So if it's an age is not always an indicator. I have been on Client calls where somebody's in their 60s and they're the most hilarious, fun person in the room and just wanna chit chat. Whereas a 25 year old on the call is all business. So age is not always an indicator. But I think opening up, starting off, seeing if there's an anecdote you can throw in there, ask a question about the weather, where they're based, those are great ways to get a read on someone and you just kind of build the conversation from there. So if they seem like they want to chat a little bit to warm up, do that. If they seem like they want to get straight to it, do that. Just kind of reading the room, I.

[A]

Would say, ooh, okay. I don't think there's much generational difference on that. I agree with that. I think if you're. I think the greatest success to a client call is you have to put yourself in the mindset of what does your client want? I think a lot of times when salespeople or people get on a call, they tend to talk about them. I've been guilty of this. You tend to talk about yourself, your business, what you want, what you're doing, and you miss the why is this person on the other line and you've got to reframe or you have to frame everything you're doing to be in the mindset of that person. I think that's actually the hardest skill is forget what you want, what is it that they want and how do you deliver them. So to me, I agree. I don't think really it's an age thing because you can be on the phone with a bitchy 20 something or super friendly 40 something. It has nothing to do with being 20 or being 40. It's more the DNA of the person, what they're dealing with, how they're approaching things. So I agree with that. Do you tailor your. Do you find that you tailor your voice or your demeanor differently if someone based on age?

[H]

Yes, also on vibe. And I use. I love the word vibe because I think it's kind of all encapsulating. It might age me a little bit, but I'm on the border with you.

[A]

Vibe is an old word to you?

[H]

No, I mean, like it'll make you younger.

[A]

Yeah, sometimes. Actually, it depends. I'm sorry, I have to pause here. Let's just talk about vibe. I hate the word vibe.

[D]

What?

[G]

I love the word vibe.

[A]

I think vibe is just like smushy. It is holistic.

[H]

It is a very holistic.

[A]

It's like vibes. I have Like, I had a one on one with someone the other day who was like, I just bring good vibes. And I'm like, that's not a job. Like, that's true. It's important, it's a good thing to do. But I actually think there's a big generational difference. I think the 30 and under set is like, vibes is enough.

[D]

Also, vibes is a millennial term. So like even Gen Z, it would age you. Saying vibes to a Gen Z or.

[A]

Gen Alpha, that's after. They'd be like, that's old.

[D]

That's old. Yeah. Saying vibes like, see, this is where.

[A]

I think the 40, 40s, the 40s people and the 20 year olds are actually like super aligned.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And the group in the middle is vibing.

[H]

Millennials are just doing their best. That's what I always feel.

[A]

Write the stuff down. I find that if people actually just wrote stuff down when people said it, so much more shit would get done at work. And it is shocking, shocking, shocking, shocking to me how I often will sit in a meeting and somebody will be dropping a lot of knowledge or driving a lot of deliverables or being like, we gotta get this, this and this done and nobody's fucking taking notes. It's like amazing to me. So if you're like early in your career or mid in your career and you're like, ooh, hey self, I'm in a meeting where somebody's sharing something with me that I should remember, or somebody's telling me something that I'm ultimately going to be responsible for or involved in or have to know how to do. Don't forget to write it down. That's my biggest advice there. That's my tips and tricks today.

[G]

It's important to write stuff down.

[A]

I mean, you just should. You got to write stuff down. Or you have to have like a killer AI system where AI writes it down for you and then you remember it. But you can't. When people are like giving you stuff to do, you can't just like be like, you know, like, can't be doing that. Solutions for how do you rethink work?

[G]

Yeah, how do you rethink work? And so the idea really is the first four is okay right now. Here's what I suggest. Every company, every leader and every talented person do. So I said, if you ask me, I would do these four right away. So number one is if you are a company, think of a new type of employee. So in addition to having a full time employee, a contract employee and a Freelance employee. Have someone who's an employee 60 to 80% of the time, but with 100% healthcare. It gives you a lot of flexibility in an AI age. That's number one. Number two is rethink in person interaction. And if it's going to be in the office, redesign the office to make that happen. To make that actually happen. Right. But also. So that's there. Third is think about what a modern leader looks like. And a modern leader is much more a zone of influence leader than a zone of control leader. So how do you do that? If that makes sense. And finally, machine human interaction, how do that? So you do those four. And then the last five chapters of the book are particularly. I thought they were 2029 predictions. It's going to be 2027 or 2026. They're moving faster. That's the big change. So one of the questions I ask is why does a company exist?

[A]

Okay.

[G]

Okay. So I take some extreme positions. Okay, so why does the company exist? And when I went to the University of Chicago, there was a famous paper by a Nobel Prize winner who died long time ago called Ronald Coase, who said a company exists because external friction is greater than internal friction. That in addition to a company having a legal entity and can make contracts.

[B]

Sure.

[G]

But why can't employees be everywhere? Well, employees can't be everywhere because finding them, allocating to them, it's too difficult. So it's easier to have the drama inside a company is less than having to find all these people and do.

[A]

All these things and fight out in the ocean.

[G]

Right. And find these people, et cetera. But given that anymore, that's not true at all. It hasn't been true. But given an Internet and AI age, I expect that most employees of a company will be outside the company.

[A]

Yes.

[G]

Right. And not inside the other is, will a company primarily be in the cloud with a few physical locations, so company design changes? Well, if company design changes, then the way you measure stuff changes. Right. The way you train people change, the way organizations change. And so, in effect, my whole thing is, if you are in any business, fundamentally, your business is about work, and you're talking about every kind of disruption excepting what you yourself are doing, which is work.

[A]

Yes.

[G]

Right. And in many ways that has changed. So I'm actually tomorrow talking to. I noticed in your background you started early at Fidelity, you're going to Fidelity tomorrow. So I'm doing a thing with Fidelity.

[A]

Okay.

[G]

And so some of their leaders had read my book, reached out to me on LinkedIn, and said, can you speak to 150 of our leaders about this? Right. And so. And everyone has a different take on what my book is supposed to be for them. Because what I do is that I customize a topic like. And so that's really what the book is about, which is, if work is so central and your podcast is called Work. Right. And it's changing so amazing, why are we not rethinking work while we're rethinking everything else?

[A]

No, I agree with that. How do you think about Instagram and the ecosystem?

[E]

Instagram's really interesting because I find it the place where we look for authority of someone.

[D]

Right.

[E]

So if I didn't know you and someone says, oh, you should, you should look up Erica, it's like, where's the first place I'm going to?

[A]

You go to Instagram. Instagram.

[E]

Right. So it becomes this. It's like the place of record download of someone. And after that I also see how many of my mutuals are following you. And there's this level of authority with that. Oh, we have a lot of mutuals. I must know her. Right. And so Instagram is this place of. Yeah, it's your 10 second download of who you are.

[A]

Okay.

[E]

And that I think in the future. I don't know where TikTok stands, but I think my future is like YouTube.

[A]

Instagram.

[E]

YouTube is this place where you can, if you want to spend 30 minutes with me, this is the place to be. And then Instagram's a place where if you only have 10 seconds, the top of funnel, that's where come.

[A]

Okay. So that's how you think about it, which is Instagram as a gateway. YouTube can also be a gateway. But you could also spend five hours with YouTube.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's for people who want a relationship with you. You want a relationship.

[E]

And I can create a much deeper sort of topics on YouTube and just bigger projects.

[A]

Yeah. And one of the things you said at the, when we had our live event, which I thought was so, so, so brilliant, was that you are, I don't know if you use the word selling trust, but that, that it's trust. Like that is the, that is you're not shilling a product, you're not marketing your brand, you're trying to build trust. Like, how do you think about that?

[E]

Yeah, that was a, it was a really big unlock for me.

[G]

Right.

[E]

I think we grew up all our lives thinking that money can only be made on an axis of time. Right. Salaries are just, the more you work the like, more you get paid. Right. How many dollars you make per hour at one point? I think in order to build wealth, you have to find a way to build money. Not on a basis of time.

[A]

Yes. 100%. You got to, you got to transact.

[D]

Exactly.

[E]

And like investors is you're building money off a basis of risk.

[D]

Right.

[E]

The more you risk, the more potential you have to make. And then as a creator, what I've realized is we're making money on a basis of trust. So even though you'll see These creators spend 60 seconds on a video and they get paid six figures, a lot of people go, how is this even possible? It's because they have a lot of trust with their audience. And the funny thing about trust is it's gained in drops and dropped in buckets. Right. So it's one of these things where I'm really focused on what is this overall brand. When a, a company partners with me, how can I make sure that they know that this brand isn't going to mess up? Right. This is. I'm not.

[A]

Trust goes both ways. Like you're a conduit. They're leveraging your trust to share their message with your fans who trust you. And you want them to trust you, want the brand to trust you. That's also very. It was funny. We had this conversation, we met the founders of Happy Pop last night and we're having a discussion about what influencer would be right for their brand. And people had a lot of opinion about it and really different opinions. And my opinion was no one, because you put your brand in somebody else's face or in someone else's mouth, everything that happens with that person becomes your brand. And if you're down, like we live this at barstool, like it's. There's no greater vehicle than that and there's no more dangerous vehicle than that.

[E]

The biggest double edged sword, change creates.

[A]

This like bad, bad energy and it's. I don't know why, why, Cynthia?

[I]

Listen, Erica, if I only had the answer. I called my company Embrace Change as a daily call in to myself to not be so, you know, like afraid of change, upset and like, yeah, like dreading it and all this. But my theory about it, I guess and what I say to people usually is that like every, every experience of change is actually a little bit of a mourning or a grieving process because you have to let go of what was and what you thought, thought might be and you have to accept the new thing, even if you think it's better. Like exactly that situation. Maybe Some of them know, or they sense that it might actually be better in the end. But that process is, like, it's hard.

[A]

I think you're right. So I think people are afraid of the unknown. Like, that creates fear. I have that as well. I think that's in every human on the planet, or most every human. The second thing is, I think it creates this ping of insecurity of, like, what if I'm not safe? Right. Like, and I think everybody has that. And then I think it. I agree with you. I think you're totally onto something. Like, I think everyone is in, like, a mourning process, a beginning process. Like, and if you can process those feelings quickly, like, if you can wash them quickly. Yes. Then you can keep moving forward. And I think sometimes people get stuck in that.

[I]

Yeah, I think that's exactly on point. I will also say in, I guess, all of our defense right now, it is a really.

[A]

It's a crazy time.

[B]

Yeah.

[I]

There is a lot of change. There's a lot of changes being foisted on us that, like, we just have to accept. There's a lot of feeling of powerlessness, of, like, lack of agency. Even though, you know, in reality we never had control. Like, control is an illusion.

[A]

It's an illusion.

[I]

And in a way, it's no different than before. It's just that it's really hard to pretend like you can predict anything anymore. We can't even get, like, accurate weather.

[F]

You know what I mean?

[I]

Like, so I think people's nervous systems and their brains and everything is just already overloaded. Which could explain, like, wait, but we, like, why, why this response when it.

[A]

Seems that work is tuition you get paid for and that every job you have can bring you someplace new or give you something you don't have. And it may be extremely trying and it may be extremely stressful, or it could be crazy, or it could be chaotic, or your boss is a total dick. Like, all those things are true. But having the mindset when you get into work that you are going to make something of this and make the most of it and be the best you possibly can at it. My whole thing on that is like, you gotta be there anyways. Like, if you gotta show up at 9 o' clock anyways, you might as well show up at 9 o' clock with a good attitude that you're gonna come out of it with something you didn't have before. And that's what I don't love about job hugging. Like, I'm a job hugger. I've always been Afraid to be without a job. Like I'm 100% a job hugger. I like to work. I want to work. I want 15 jobs at once. If I could have five jobs right now, I would like right now I'm dying to be the commissioner of the wnba. I just want to manifest it into the world. I'm like, what a shit show. I'd like that job. But I'm job hugging my job right now, not because I'm afraid to lose it, which is, let's be honest, a reality. Anybody can lose their job at any point in time and very often for nothing. You actually had to do. It has four circumstances that are totally beyond your control. But the way I choose to look at it and the way I would love people to look at it because I think it would make you happier, is to be in a job, make the most of the job, Take away as much as you possibly can from the job, give as much as you possibly can to the job and become someone new because of the job. And I, I personally, personally believe so strongly that it does not matter if you work at Google. You work at a gift shop, you work at someplace fabulous, you work at the rinky dink worst run company ever. All those things are always inherently and fundamentally true. And they're fundamentally true of any experience you put yourself into. So if you're in your 20s, listening to this, or in your 30s, or in your 40s, or even in your 50s and you're like hanging on, don't quit hanging on, but change your mindset into hang on and get something great out of this and have this experience. Be able to take you to that next place. And don't put your head down in fear. Pick your head up and put your eyes to where they are. Like in the quiet quitting place, everyone was like, you know what? Like fuck you to my boss and I'm going to look around for the next best thing. Now the next best thing doesn't exist, so you can't say fuck you to your boss, but you can put your eyes to something. And if you put your eyes to making the most of where you are and the most of what you had, the most of what you have to become someone new, something incredible can come from that. How do you create boundaries? And how do you, how do you help managers or employees or bosses or people, whatever, like, stick to the script.

[B]

Yeah, it's simple. It's as simple as Mita. I so appreciate your excitement and enthusiasm for Mel's project. I'm glad about the guidance you've given her. And I really need you to redirect your focus onto this project.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so there's a difference between being someone who advises and give. Gives input, which is what you might call on me to do, versus I'm not running it, and I'm not the decision maker. And I need to be really careful, especially when there's, you know, people are moving into lanes that they really shouldn't be in either because they don't want to do their core job. They're not skilled to do their core job. There's a conflict there. They're avoiding, and they're much more interested in something else that actually might be easier for them because they've done before. But that's not what you need me to do. You're trying to push me to do something else. And so I think with, with, as Brene Brown says, kind is clear. So if we can do that and just be really clear, it's like, I'm so excited that you're excited, and I need that enthusiasm for the other projects.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. So keep, keep doing your day job. I also think, like, there's a. There's a lot to be said for, like, visibility and consistency. Like, I think a lot of times work gets lost in meetings and days and Mondays and Wednesday afternoons and emails and like, you kind of lose sight of the, like, hey, this is, we're, you know, this is what I'm trying to do right now anyways, which is we're trying to do three things. Your job is X, her job is Y, both your jobs is Z. So. And let's, let's call the ball on who's doing what. And I think the more people could do that, I think it would help people lose this feeling of inertia, which I think ultimately creates swirl, and it creates disengagement, which leads to burnout, all that kind of stuff.

[B]

And it creates conflict on teams and it creates friction completely because it's like, that's not your job. That's my job. Or that's my job, not your job completely. And the back and forth that happens.

[A]

And then you're, like, spending so much time on that and so much angst on it. I agree with that. Okay, let's talk about generational differences. So give me your take on, like, what is the Gen Z workforce versus the millennial workforce versus the Gen X boomer? Like, how do you see, what are the stereotypes that you see?

[B]

I mean, I hate to play into the stereotypes, right, because that's what we do with communities. And that's when we don't get to know each other individually. That's why I take the one on ones when you can you get to know people so you don't stereotype me as this and that. I think the biggest friction right now, and I'll, I'll talk about like baby boomers versus Gen Z and that is basically the time in which they grew up in. So if you are a baby boomer and you're also thinking about parents who had time at that, at that time working, the social contract between employer, employee is dead. And so this idea that I worked for a company and I would give my unwavering loyalty because I had job security, health benefits, pension, that is all gone. Loyalty is dead. And yet so many people who are in the baby boomer boomer generation still operate like that because that's what they know. And then you have a new generation entering the workforce. That's not what I know. I have people graduating from college who can't get jobs, grad school. I have friends who started a job that were just laid off. I was laid off. Loyalty is dead. And so why are you upset if I have a side hustle? Why are you upset if I'm looking for work life balance? Because quite frankly, technology is killing us. So you see the tension in terms of how these generations have grown up in the workplace. And so that's what I see as a lot of what's causing friction in terms of miscommunication and how people like to work.

[A]

Yeah. What's your lesson to, like, what's your message? Like, most people who listen to this are in their careers trying to figure out who they are, how they express themselves, how they make it through, like the ups and downs and crazy turns of life. Like, what's your. You have such great fire. Like, what's your. What would you say to them?

[F]

I would say you never give up and never take no for an answer. Because I always say if I had a dollar for every time someone told me no and told me, like, oh, this would never. This will never be on the COVID of a magazine. This be this. And that won't work. But you also, you never know what type of day someone's having. You never know what position that person's in. You never know like, where it's coming from.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

Or where it's directing.

[A]

Nothing to do with you. Right.

[F]

It has nothing to do with you. And like, go ask another person, they're gonna say yes.

[A]

Yeah, 100. Or just do it yourself. Yeah.

[F]

Or just yourself. But also, like, it doesn't need to be perfect. Like, just get out there and start doing it and you can change it along the way.

[A]

Yeah, you just have to get started. Yeah.

[F]

Like, and just move forward and like, and don't be afraid. And you're. Don't let your ego get in the way of like, failure. Like, I've failed so many times. Like, I literally, like, they don't care.

[A]

Not anymore. Yeah, I used to care. Yeah, I used to care. But.

[F]

And that's another thing. But I think that comes with age. I'm 54 and so it comes with, I think, experience.

[A]

I care less. Once you get to a certain point, you're like, I'm out of.

[F]

You have a zero thing once. Like, you've been through so much with like, family, kids, marriage, life, highs, lows, health, all of this stuff. And I think you get to a certain point where like, all you want to do is tell people to not be afraid. Like, because people are also so, like, s. Like people aren't really paying that much attention to you. You know what I mean? Like, you're so self centered. Like, people are not paying that much attention. Like so. And it is maybe one day, if something isn't good, the next day it is good. It's like bottom of the bird cage.

[A]

I know, it's so funny. I taught a class last night at N. Where we went to a class last night at nyu and they were like, what's your one piece of advice? And I'm like, stop looking for this perfect job. It doesn't exist. Just take a job. Like, just get out there. Just do something. Just try stuff. Like, you hate it. It'll change. It hates you. It'll change. You know, like, everything will change. You just got to do something. Work.

[H]

Now.

[A]

Work.