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- [00:00]
A
All right, welcome back to work. I'm here with Emily. I'm gonna let Emily introduce herself, but I just wanna say that I'm obsessed with her hair. And the woman washes her hair once every two weeks, which is. I'm just gonna give you the prize for podcast guests for the last five years of the hair washing frequency.
- [00:17]
B
Yeah, well, if we do it, let's do it the best, right? If you're gonna go bigger, go home in everything. If I'm not gonna wash my hair,
- [00:24]
A
I'm not gonna wash my hair. Okay, so, Emily Tish Sussman, tell us who you are, what you do. We're gonna talk about pivoting.
- [00:31]
B
So I'm the host of a podcast called she Pivots, where we're aiming to move culture and lead the conversation around the intersection of personal and professional. So trying to bring in all these personal things into our professional decision making and, like, blow it up.
- [00:46]
A
Okay, I love this. So you're essentially embracing vulnerable moments. Like, I've been reading about you. Like, I love. You're a lawyer. You had a career in D.C. you have kids. You're like, ah, I've got all these things. I'm gonna make all these changes. And it seems from listening to the podcast, it's like you're really embracing the personal decisions that create or prompt the need for great change. So, like, talk a little bit about that.
- [01:12]
B
That's exactly what it is. You nailed it. So I'm glad that got through. You nailed it. I mean, it really came out of a very personal place for me that I had this very serious. I did not have purple hair then. I had a very serious political career, and I was really doing well. Like, I was at the height of my political career. And then I had three kids in three years and three and a half years.
- [01:31]
A
Oh, my God. And you were like, I'm dead.
- [01:33]
B
And I like, I'm dead. I cannot be in a job that requires multiple anything. Like multiple parts of my brain functioning at the same time. And it was the beginning of the pandemic. So I was also, like, locked in with my kids. Lot of soul searching. I was like, my career is dead, and my identity is also dead with it. Like, I did not step back from my career because I wanted to spend more time with my kids. I didn't. The thing that makes me feel like me is working and it's unavailable to me right now. So I had a very big identity loss with it. And honestly, I needed advice. And I needed advice. Through the example of stories of other women who had been through something personal and come out different and then created something different. Yep. Like, I didn't feel like there was anything in the cultural conversation that I identified with about making career decisions based on personal factors. Like, it was embarrassing to be like, oh, I dropped out of this high powered political career cause I'm overwhelmed from kids. Yeah, like, that's embarrassing.
- [02:29]
A
You couldn't say it. You couldn't. That's really interesting, actually. It's so funny, because there is something, I think a lot of times when women have to pivot, it's because there's something big that happens for a woman in caring for someone or something else, like, which is strange. You don't hear men talking about this at all. Like, when a man has three kids, he's not like, fuck, I'm out of my big job. You know what I mean? Like, but for a woman, like, yes, let's hope we get there. You're gonna help people get there. But I think that's really important because it also is. It should be really empowering. Like, what I'm really loving is there are more and more voices from women, and there are more and more. There's more and more conversation about the things that are hard or uncomfortable or used to be shameful. And I think giving honor to that is really important because it is other people's stories that give you the courage to kind of lead your own and
- [03:24]
B
to be really specific and individual about it. Like, when I did a lot of media and messaging when I was in politics, and it was always about, like, the number of people impacted, like, these big numbers. I don't know that we're moving culture that way. I actually think it's the really vulnerable, specific, individual story. So let's narrow in on that.
- [03:44]
A
Super interesting. So how did you deal with the three kids? One year apart is like, I have two kids a year and a half apart. That's like, bananas. But how did you deal with the. Feel like you had to be tired. How did you deal with the loss? And how did you deal? Cause I think that the hard thing is you kind of come out of either having kids or getting divorced or moving or losing your job or whatever it may be. Sometimes you come out of it a different person than you were. Like, how did you deal with that?
- [04:12]
B
That was 100% where I was, is that I really was struggling with. I felt like any cultural conversation that touched on something like this had to do with resilience. And I really did not identify with the idea of resilience I was like, I am so fundamentally changed. How can I think about going back? Like, resilience implies, like, going back to the same way that you were before. Like, I'm different. And I want to know that this thing that I went through wasn't just for nothing. I'm not gonna, like, cover it up. Like, maybe there is something positive that could come out of this. And I think it's taken me years and, like, the space to see what those positives are, but now I'm hyper efficient. Yeah. Like, something that I used to take a lot of pride in in my work is that I could just outwork anybody. Like, I could outwork longer hours. I could take.
- [05:00]
A
I'll maul you. I will log it, do it, struggle through it, suffer in it 100%.
- [05:07]
B
Like, I will just overwhelm you with me.
- [05:10]
A
100%.
- [05:11]
B
That is not available to me now. But because being really present with my kids and being able to do pick up and drop off is a priority, I can be super efficient in the hours that I am working.
- [05:21]
A
Yep.
- [05:22]
B
I'm much better at delegating now than I ever was before. I can say this needs my brain power. This does not. Right. So these are all, like, positive attributes for a working world that I have enhanced from myself because I went through this.
- [05:35]
A
You embrace this new person, who you are, and the boundaries within it.
- [05:39]
B
Right. But I hadn't heard anything in the conversation like that at the time. You asked, how did I feel? I felt depressed. I felt like shit. Like, I felt like I had no low. I felt like I had no value because the things that I had put value on for myself.
- [05:52]
A
Yeah.
- [05:53]
B
You didn't have any more. I didn't have them. So what was. I was just like a bad mom who didn't feel connected to her babies.
- [05:58]
A
Yeah. And was like, I should be doing something else.
- [06:00]
B
Yeah. And I was like, don't I have a higher use than this? Like, you're crying and I can't make you stop crying. Shouldn't, like, everyone be able to figure out how to make their kids stop crying? I can't. I'm terrible in every way. So, like, that took me a while.
- [06:10]
A
Yep. And I think the other thing that's. I love how you talk about it. Cause I think the other piece is that when you make a pivot, I think the first inclination is to explain why you're justify why you're different than you were before. And I also feel like nobody has to justify that. Like, you're just different. Do you know what I mean, and, like, it's actually spending that time in that hang zone of, like, I used to. To be like this. I used to do that. Versus embracing the new you. And I don't know if that's a cheesy way to say it. Like, there's something really empowering in letting it go. Like, we have a woman from work, like a girl who became sober in her 20s, and she's like, sobriety is my superpower because I let go of who I was when I wasn't sober. And now I'm this new thing. I'm the new Helena, and I do it this way. I hang with these people. This is how I spend my time. This is how I think about my work. That you can do, whether you're sober, whether you have three kids, whether you get a new job, you move to a new city, you assume a new identity, whatever it may be. Like, just embracing the. Like, okay, these are the new boundaries. These are my new rules. These are my principles now. And I'm gonna go make it.
- [07:22]
B
But that. To get to that point or. Yes, and to get to that point takes a process of really knowing yourself, being introspective, and seeing value and what you have to offer. I feel like a lot of the time when people wanna pivot, they either focus on a thing they wanna do. Like, they make it super specific. They're like, oh, I'm gonna start an Etsy store for crocheted names.
- [07:46]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [07:46]
B
Like, they're super specific about what they wanna do, or they're specific about a thing that they're trying to let go of in their old career. So, like, I don't wanna commute anymore. Okay. I don't wanna manage a team anymore. Would be the two most common things that we have.
- [07:59]
A
That's interesting. Okay, so keep going.
- [08:02]
B
So they're really spec. So I think I have, like, a little process of a way, I think, to approach it. So first is, like, being super clear about what you're trying to get to and what you're trying to let go of. So the good thing about what you're trying to let go of, like, no commute, no managing. Great. Those are specific. You can be clear in your next stage. But being specific about, like, what you want out of it does not mean going to the form.
- [08:25]
A
Yes, Okay, I got it. It's more abstract.
- [08:28]
B
It's more abstract. It's like, I want to be autonomous and creative. Like, okay, great, now we can move forward. Because if you get too attached.
- [08:37]
A
Yeah. Then it becomes you're Just supplanting the old thing for a new Etsy store with embroidery.
- [08:42]
B
And you're gonna fail.
- [08:43]
A
Yeah.
- [08:44]
B
Because you're too attached to this form that you know nothing about and you've
- [08:48]
A
placed too much value in it and emphasis on it.
- [08:50]
B
Too much emphasis on it. So once you've identified like these guideposts, like, then going out to your circle, probably of non professional friends, like, probably just your friends, and seeing like, what do you see my skills as? Yep. Because you also may not realize what your skills are and how transferable they are.
- [09:06]
A
Yep.
- [09:07]
B
And then going like one step further to somebody who is maybe like on the edge of your network, who's in the industry that you want to go to and be like, okay, these are my guardrails, these are my skills. How do I translate now into your industry? Like, is there a calendar? Is there a language? Like, what are the things that I should look out for? So like increasing your network that way and then being super realistic about your bandwidth. Yep. Like, it's not like, oh, if I don't launch an Etsy shop in three months and it's profitable, I've now failed.
- [09:32]
A
Yeah, sure. Just being realistic about it.
- [09:34]
B
Just be realistic. Like the first six months are market research. Yep. The next ones are trying products. Like, just be realistic about it.
- [09:42]
A
How do you manage pace? Because I think that's one of the things that's really hard. Like if you're a go getter, like, you're used to the hard charging life. Like, I come from the school of like, no one will outwork me. And that was great in my 20s and it was like a little bit less great in my 30s and like slightly less great than that in my 40s. But like, when you think about pivot, it's hard to lose that. Like, I want everything now and I want to will it to be like, how did you, how did you think about pace differently? Or what are the stories you've heard of women, like, who have kind of paced. Just thought of a new pace for themselves?
- [10:20]
B
Look, I'm intense. Clearly this is how it's gonna be. Like, there's no changing that. I think managing pace is also tied to managing your definition of success at different points. Okay, so my earlier career version of success was title compensation. Access to information.
- [10:38]
A
Span of control.
- [10:39]
B
Yeah, right. Span of control is a good way to put it. Like, those were really clear and so outworking everyone got me to those things. Now my definition of success is can I do something impactful in the hours that I have and then Can I be present with my kids? Yep. That's my version of success now. So then I can pace myself, like, harden the hours that I need to
- [10:58]
A
be going and harden the hours with your kids in a different way.
- [11:00]
B
In a different way.
- [11:01]
A
Yep. That's great.
- [11:03]
B
So, like, it's tied to the success,
- [11:05]
A
like, version of success. Yeah.
- [11:05]
B
Awesome.
- [11:06]
A
And then how do you think about, like, you in it? Like, do you allow room for, like, is there a third goal just for Emily, or do you talk to, like.
- [11:14]
B
No, I don't know how to do that. I don't know.
- [11:16]
A
Maybe.
- [11:16]
B
Maybe I'm not sure.
- [11:17]
A
Okay. Okay, that's interesting. Cause I think that's the other piece. Like, women kind of leave themselves last. Do you know what I mean?
- [11:24]
B
Oh, that's an interesting point. So I think phrased that way, I can connect to it a little more. I think it's knowing what I do, like, what value I bring to a situation and making sure that I'm focusing my bandwidth on that. Like, I don't do everything I do the places that I add value and also having clear boundaries around that.
- [11:44]
A
And that give you value back.
- [11:46]
B
And that give me value back.
- [11:47]
A
Okay.
- [11:48]
B
Yeah.
- [11:48]
A
I love that.
- [11:49]
B
To get more efficient in different areas, my bandwidth to add more expands, and then I try different things. I'm a big proponent of, like, just try it. Like, try something once. I don't have to decide. The rest of my life is gonna be tied to this new thing that I'm doing. I'm just.
- [12:05]
A
I'm just playing.
- [12:06]
B
I'm just. I'm splashing in.
- [12:07]
A
Yes. Okay.
- [12:08]
B
Even when I started, she pivots. I actually had two concepts.
- [12:10]
A
Okay.
- [12:10]
B
And I explored both at the same time.
- [12:12]
A
What were they?
- [12:12]
B
And waited to see, like, which one kind of took. One of them was. She pivots. And the other one was that I have a very sweet, sensitive son.
- [12:19]
A
Okay.
- [12:20]
B
And I didn't feel like there was enough cultural resources and supports for raising a boy that I want to be sensitive.
- [12:25]
A
Okay. I love that.
- [12:26]
B
So I wrote an article that went viral in 2021 about the importance of raising a sensitive son. Like, we've uplifted our girls to believe that they can be anything they can be.
- [12:35]
A
Let's do it for the boys.
- [12:36]
B
We haven't done it for the boys. We haven't told them they can be anything. They can be 100%. That can be said.
- [12:40]
A
That's okay to cry.
- [12:41]
B
It's okay to cry. So that had been, like, this the other. I felt equally passionately about both, and I wasn't really sure which direction I was gonna go in, but the response that I got to she pivots was just much stronger, and I ended up seeing many more opportunities to talk about that that came with that.
- [12:58]
A
And what are the three? Like, if you had to pick three takeaways that are consistent with all your guests on she pivots, like, what are they?
- [13:06]
B
You can do it at any age.
- [13:08]
A
Yeah.
- [13:08]
B
We've had women's pivot in their 50s, 60s, 80s, that when you're in that hard moment, you don't necessarily know you're gonna come out of it in a successful way. In fact, I'd say you definitely don't.
- [13:22]
A
Yep.
- [13:22]
B
Yep. Like, if something's gonna change you so fundamentally that it puts your life on a different course.
- [13:27]
A
Yeah. Then it's not gonna look great in the middle.
- [13:29]
B
It's gonna be really bad. Otherwise, it doesn't force you to change. Like, if it's small.
- [13:36]
A
Yeah. You'll get over it. You'll just stay on the same side. Yep.
- [13:40]
B
Yeah. Like, it kind of has to be pretty big unless you make a really big decision. And in that moment, they don't see something on the other side. Yes. And I'd say the third thing is that they're really happy they did it. Like, they're really happy they did it.
- [13:51]
A
Like, nearly universally, I'd say. Universally, that's amazing.
- [13:55]
B
They're really happy that they did it. Because that thing that you had before, like, maybe you bring pieces of it with you. I actually say 100%, you bring pieces of it with you forward, and you've lost the things that don't matter.
- [14:06]
A
That didn't serve you.
- [14:07]
B
Yeah.
- [14:07]
A
That didn't serve you. It's so cool. I wrote a book about work, and in it, it was like, you're an optimist, so you're gonna think it worked out anyways. That's what's amazing about this whole thing is, like, you're gonna say it worked out even if you make the shittiest decision you've ever made. One, you can pivot again. But two, you're gonna be like, if I hadn't done that, this wouldn't have happened.
- [14:28]
B
And not sitting in it too hard on yourself, it's gonna derail. Yes, that's part of the process.
- [14:34]
A
Yes, exactly. By design.
- [14:36]
B
By design, exactly. So just seeing it as, okay, now I have more information. Now I'm holding onto the thing that's really important to me, and I'll just
- [14:44]
A
take a swerve, move to the next place. Okay. I Love this. And do you think you'll pivot again? Like, how do you think about future pivots?
- [14:52]
B
Yeah, I think I'm constantly pivoting, to be honest with you. I think the show has given me an access to culture change in a way that I never thought I would have. My whole career was in legislative change, like, changing laws. I never thought I would be in this span of culture change.
- [15:06]
A
That's amazing. So it's so much lighter.
- [15:08]
B
It feels great.
- [15:09]
A
It's so fun.
- [15:10]
B
So happy to not be in the dating process right now, but it does. And I now focus on creating a platform for women, telling stories of women who have never told their story publicly before and never told it this way before. It feels incredibly gratifying, and it's coming from a really positive place when there's not a lot of positive things. Right now, we need stories of inspiration, and so it's very gratifying to me.
- [15:33]
A
It's awesome to be a conduit for that.
- [15:36]
B
Exactly. And so that piece I think I will stick with. But as my show has gotten more efficient, I have a great team. I'm really clear about what I do and I don't do. It's given me space to do other things, which is cool. I'm constantly pivoting.
- [15:48]
A
Okay, so let's talk about the sports of it all for a second. So let's talk about Gotham.
- [15:54]
B
Yes.
- [15:54]
A
Okay, like, tell me, like, how do you. The Gotham and the Giants. Like, how do you think about this?
- [16:00]
B
So people may be more familiar with the New York Giants.
- [16:02]
A
Yes.
- [16:03]
B
But Gotham fc.
- [16:04]
A
Not for long.
- [16:04]
B
Not for yet.
- [16:06]
A
Yes.
- [16:07]
B
Gotham FC is the reigning national champion in women's soccer. We just won the national championship for the second time in three years. And we're going on to the Club World cup, the FIFA Club World cup, to compete for, like, rule around with the universe. Like, best team in the world.
- [16:23]
A
And who's your greatest competition? Is it Angel City?
- [16:26]
B
Not. Not from a soccer perspective, but the whole women's soccer league, the NWSL in the United States, is still an evolving product.
- [16:34]
A
100%. It's very. It's young.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah. We're in, like, adolescence building a league. So Angel City, I'd say, is the gold standard of the business model. They've done an Excellent job. 100%.
- [16:44]
A
They've got a good brand.
- [16:44]
B
They've done a great job. And so actually, we've actually recruited many of the Angel City business staff over the years.
- [16:49]
A
Oh, interesting. Okay.
- [16:49]
B
That's because we want to be where they are five years ago. Like, that's where we are right now. So just to back up for context, when I went through this whole, like, three kid transition, my sister also went through the same three kid transition she had been running. I know they have a buddy in it. She had been running global marketing at Peloton when it was a startup. So she built up the brand.
- [17:09]
A
That's so fun. I love Peloton.
- [17:11]
B
And then it's great. It's.
- [17:12]
A
How does it work out? Yeah, same.
- [17:14]
B
And she built a sports VC to leverage our position in the New York. Our family's position in the New York Giants, which we've had for the last 30 years.
- [17:20]
A
Okay, got it. Yep.
- [17:21]
B
So my sister led the sports VC through a number of different investments. It became clear that the biggest opportunity is women's sports, particularly women's soccer. So we became the controlling owners of Gotham FC, the New York team, in 2023.
- [17:33]
A
Okay.
- [17:34]
B
With my sister as the head of our investment group. She's now the president of the team and actually now the chair of the entire league. So that's.
- [17:40]
A
Congratulations.
- [17:40]
B
She said quickly.
- [17:42]
A
For us, that's a pivot.
- [17:44]
B
And now I spend basically the majority of my time working on, like, the intersection of Gotham and culture.
- [17:50]
A
Oh, very cool.
- [17:50]
B
So, like, you should think of New York culture and you should think of Gotham. Like, Gotham should be at the center of every cultural conversation in Gotham. So cool.
- [17:57]
A
You should go talk to. I'm on the board of the Professional Lacrosse League, and we're trying to build the women's teams, and they should talk to you. You could offer them a lot of perspective.
- [18:06]
B
I would love to.
- [18:07]
A
That's cool. I'll connect that. In fact, I really.
- [18:09]
B
Commissioner Used to be the general counsel there.
- [18:11]
A
Oh, really?
- [18:11]
B
Yes.
- [18:12]
A
So fun.
- [18:13]
B
I would love to have.
- [18:13]
A
I want to be the commissioner of the Women's Lacrosse League.
- [18:15]
B
But you know what you're doing?
- [18:17]
A
I am. I'm trying to.
- [18:18]
B
How did you get on the board of the Women's Lacrosse League? League?
- [18:20]
A
Cause I was on the board of the Men's Lacrosse league. So when they. When the Rabel Brothers created the pll, I was at Barstool Sports, and they came in and they were part. There was another men's league at the time. And they were like, hey, like, we want to create a different league. It was really shitty for the players. There weren't a lot of rights. Nobody was making any money. It's kind of like women's sports at this point. Like, no one's making any money. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, this is great. I'll totally. So I helped them, as a friend, think about how they would sketch it out and what it would look like and how they would market it, and how do you use social media to build it? And what would a league of the future look like, which I think is really interesting, which is it won't look like the Giants so much or NFL so much, but it will look like the way women's soccer is integrated and thinking about content that's distributed in social. And I think that just the world is really opened up for women's sports and more nascent sports, which lacrosse was at the time. And then I joined their board and I've been on their board, I don't know, four years, five years.
- [19:22]
B
Oh, very cool.
- [19:23]
A
Yeah. And then they launched a women's league, which was kind of more of a festival circuit maybe two years ago. And we're trying to, like, get it to be local and to be regional. So it's a baby compared to where women's soccer is.
- [19:36]
B
But it'll get there. But there's so many different models now.
- [19:38]
A
Yeah, totally. It's cool.
- [19:39]
B
Like, it's a really exciting opportunity. There is all opportunity. I would say.
- [19:43]
A
That's very cool. I love that. Where does Gotham play?
- [19:46]
B
We play at Sports Illustrated Stadium right outside Newark, New Jersey.
- [19:49]
A
Oh, that's so fun.
- [19:50]
B
So you should come to a game.
- [19:51]
A
I am going to come to a game.
- [19:53]
B
We're going to kick off.
- [19:54]
A
Carly Lloyd's involved. Yeah.
- [19:56]
B
Carli Lloyd is. Yes. In our ownership group.
- [19:57]
A
Yes. And Carli Lloyd. Yeah. She's like, she was there before us. She was tough.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah.
- [20:02]
A
Like, when she was doing the commentary for the World Cup. I loved it. Like, did you watch that?
- [20:07]
B
Oh, yeah. There's that whole great Netflix documentary about the World Cup. Documentary.
- [20:10]
A
Oh, I didn't.
- [20:11]
B
Oh, yeah. Rebecca Getletz made it. Oh, really? She's a great sports documentarian.
- [20:17]
A
I just like that Carly calls, like, everybody out, does not like af, does not care. And I like that about her. I'm like, she would have been a great teammate. Like, she's clearly a great player. That's so fun.
- [20:27]
B
It's been really interesting. That'd be cool. Like, we came in and really had to rebuild a lot of the team, especially on the business side, for sure that we had to reorient ourselves from, like, a sports team to a live events business. We had to, you know, figure out,
- [20:41]
A
like, where do we think about entertainment and all the pieces?
- [20:44]
B
Yes. How do we think about building our fan base? Like, right now we have a very core fan base. But how do we become. How do we get to that, like, that edge bubble of, like, the casual fan? What brings them in? What retains them, what keeps them. Like, how do we become part of a family's regular activity?
- [20:59]
A
This is what we're doing on the weekends.
- [21:00]
B
Absolutely. We're wearing the jersey.
- [21:02]
A
We're going to the game. Like, that's cool.
- [21:04]
B
And it's an incredibly family friendly environment in a way that men's sports has become hard to access.
- [21:09]
A
100% men's sport, not family. Well, it's expensive. And then also it's just different. It's like beer drinking, like fat guys, which is okay. Like, I like beer drinking fat guys.
- [21:21]
B
There is a place for that. That is not a soccer.
- [21:23]
A
Yeah, no, I agree. I think that's actually what's super cool. All right. I love that. Okay, so tell people where they can find you. Where they can. The next season of she Pivots is coming out. Like, give people where they find Emily, how they get the purple hair, the whole thing.
- [21:36]
B
So you can find she Pivots on every podcast platform or on Instagram. We have a great newsletter you'll find on our website, the Shepibbets website. You can find us all over the Interwebs.
- [21:45]
A
Okay, great. And where do they find you?
- [21:48]
B
You can find me there as well.
- [21:50]
A
Also on the Interwebs.
- [21:50]
B
Also on the interwebs, on LinkedIn. And through our she Pivots website, they can find. It's all she Pivots and me.
- [21:56]
A
We're all. We're entertaining the same.
- [21:58]
B
We're one in the same.
- [21:59]
A
Okay, that's awesome. Thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. You were so great.
- [22:02]
B
Thank you so much. I love what you're doing here.
- [22:04]
A
It's fun. All right. That was work. You can find us also all over the inner West.
- [22:08]
B
Wait, this is it. This is under pressure. This is the world.
- [22:10]
A
I love this.
- [22:11]
B
This is the documentary.
- [22:13]
A
I have not seen this.
- [22:14]
B
Under Pressure.
- [22:15]
A
Hmm.
- [22:16]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [22:17]
A
Oh, I watched it tonight, too.
- [22:20]
B
That's so funny. Did they hear us? That's so creepy.
- [22:22]
A
No, I think Sarthik heard us. Oh, that would be very.
- [22:26]
B
I was like, now I feel concerned.
- [22:28]
A
Yeah, 100%.