← Work with Erika Ayers Badan
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to work conversations. Today we have Emily Kirkpatrick. She has a substack called I Heart Mess. I read her substack. She has kind of an interesting story. She worked for the Post. She's been covering celebrity fashion forever. Kind of like gave the middle finger to the Post, and now is out on her own, making her own living on substack. But before we get into that conversation, let's just take a zoom out in terms of what's happening in media. I had a reporter reach out to me today to ask about Food52 and SEO traffic. So one big trend happening right now in media, and you see this at Meredith, you see it at Ziff Davis, you see it at Conde Nast. Certainly you see it with any business in ad tech or in media that is based on traffic to a website. So for a long time I was part of an early wave of this with a company called Demand Media. But for a long time, if you could figure out how to get high in the Google rankings for when people searched for a particular topic or a piece of information or a certain thing, if you could get high on that organic search rank, it would drive a significant amount of traffic to your website. And there are a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of businesses that have done that and they were successful at it. And it lasted for a long time and it was very lucrative, or if it wasn't lucrative, it at least was functional where there was a steady flow of traffic to your website. Google search is diminishing, which actually we should look up. I think it's quite interesting, which is a lot of companies in the media ecosystem are seeing the SEO search referral traffic really, really drop off. And what that means is that their whole business model, which is typically ads on pages, on websites, there's less impressions, there's less money to go around, there's less revenue to the bottom line. So one big thing that is happening because of AI is that search traffic is down. And that search traffic driving to websites and sustaining websites is not going to. It is. We're over the hump. We are past the heyday, and that is going to continue to drive down over time. There's obviously a big new question around aio, how do you find more discoverability in AI or more discoverability via agents? So that's going to be a new frontier. You can probably expect that the AI companies start to charge for that traffic. In the same way Google made, you know, made a big business of SEM, which is search engine marketing. So the big drivers of traffic were Google, obviously. Facebook was a big, big source of traffic for a lot of media companies. Facebook closed its walls. So Instagram is a closed ecosystem. TikTok is still more of an open ecosystem, but all the ecosystems are trying to build and keep traffic in their own walled gardens. And the number one driver of traffic to all the sites in media is down. So that's down. The second thing I think you're seeing is, and this is a little bit of the life and times that we live in, is that there's a lot of paranoia certainly about political coverage. There's a lot of paranoia about defamation. The line between corporate and political and media is blurring. Washington Post is owned by the Amazon founder, Jeff Bezos. You see David Ellison, who is taking over a lot of media properties is backed by his dad, Larry Ellison, who's very close to Trump. So there's a lot of, I think a lot of conspiracy theory, but there's also, you know, there's a lot of what used to be church and state is no longer church and state. The third piece is that you're seeing the influencer world kind of, it's not collapsing, but it's certainly like I'm seeing more and more and more that influencers are complaining that they can't find their audiences, they can't reach their communities, they can't get discoverability, especially on Instagram because Instagram is changing its algorithm. I see it as a consumer, like the algorithm is getting so tight, like you like the other day I was looking for dachshunds. My mother is a dachshund. She barks all the time. And I made a God awful mistake to start looking for dachshunds on Instagram. And now all I get is anything dachshund. It's terrible. It's like the worst of the worst. The worst. I hate dachshunds. No offense to my mom's dog, but like they're the worst. Sorry to anyone who owns one. But long story short, the worlds are getting smaller. You're finding that traffic referral sources are depleting and new ones haven't emerged yet. And you're seeing the emergence of now open platforms like Substack, where a lot of talent is fleeing to those, to those platforms. One because they have freedom of speech and they have the ability to say whatever they want and they don't have any of the corporate overhang. They're building their own audiences, they're monetizing their own audiences directly, either via ads or subscription. And I think this sets the stage for what's going to be in 2026, a very chaotic media ecosystem. And so Emily is the perfect example of someone who went from a big J journalist job at a bunch of very reputable organizations to going out on her own. And I think you're going to see this happen more and more and also see it in different ways. So here's Emily. So for anybody listening or watching this. So I follow you on Substack, and Emily has, like a cool little logo and you just have, like, funny, great things to say. So I DMed her the other day, as I'm prone to do. Slid into your DMs, and I was like, hey, do you want to come? I had a feeling you lived in Brooklyn and then you somehow dropped somewhere that you're from New Hampshire. That's what happened. And then I was like, oh, I have to meet this person because I read her. And who's from where in New Hampshire are you from?
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B
Portsmouth.
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A
Oh, really? That's amazing. That's like my whole life, really. That's like the good part of New Hampshire. It is super cute.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Anyway, so I wanted you to come on. So are you a full time substacker?
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B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, my job is like 50% substack, 50% YouTube.
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A
And you make a living from that?
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B
Yeah, full time.
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A
That's amazing.
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B
That's crazy.
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A
Congratulations.
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B
And what did you.
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A
How did you get here?
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B
Oh, wow. Well, this part specifically, I quit my job really dramatically right before the. Oh, yeah.
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A
Oh, like what? Like a fuck you, fuck you run out?
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B
Pretty much. Yeah. But very public.
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A
Like, I could read about it.
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B
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I could read the tweet. You could read the essay I wrote about the tweet that made me quit. Tell us a story.
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A
Are you comfortable talking about that?
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B
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it happened all in public. Yeah.
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A
You're like, everybody knows. Anyways. Yeah.
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B
I was working at the New York Post for probably, like two years. I worked at Page Six, specifically the fashion part of Page Six. And I don't know, I was just getting to a point with the New York Post where it's like their politics are very different than mine. We were ramping up for, like, a second Trump election, and the propaganda machine was, like, starting to churn. Yeah. And I just kind of saw where I said. And I was already kind of fed up with them. And then they have a lot of. They have a lot of people who work there who are much, much older, who write about, like, one op ed a Month. And one of those colleagues of mine wrote an op ed about how millennials killed the power lunch.
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A
Okay.
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B
And it just. It found me at a time where you just got triggered. I was triggered. And I was on my way home on the subway, and I just, like, flippantly retweeted it and was kind of like, that's funny, because I'm a millennial who works at the New York Post, and we don't even get a lunch hour. So I don't really see how I could have killed that. Yep. But that's fine. And it went mega viral.
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A
Okay.
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B
Crazy viral. And they brought me into HR and, like, threatened to fire me, essentially, and if I didn't take it down. And I said, okay, well, can I have, like, 24 hours to think about if I'm gonna take it down? Cause I don't like the tone. Yeah. Yeah. I don't respond well.
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A
I don't love how this is going.
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B
I don't respond well to threats. I don't really respond well to being told what to do, especially when I felt like I was in the right. I don't know. So I went home and I thought about it, and it went more viral overnight.
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A
So they said yes to the 24 hours?
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B
Yeah, they said yes. They reluctantly said yes to the 24 hours. And then I later learned from my friend who's a big time employment lawyer, that they actually couldn't have fired me because what I was complaining about was, like, technically, it's complaining about work conditions. Right. And labor laws. And so they actually, you do have to have a lunch hour. And if they weren't giving me one, that's illegal.
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A
Okay.
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B
And so if they had fired me over it, I could have sued.
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A
You would have had a case. Okay.
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B
And so they didn't fire me, but they did make things very unpleasant at work, I felt. And so I quit.
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A
You were like, I'm out of here.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then how long did it take you to. First of all, how did that feel?
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B
At first, incredibly scary.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then once I did it, it felt awesome and, like, exactly what I was supposed to be. And obviously, like, it led me to.
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A
Here, which is amazing.
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B
I never would have done if I didn't have a job.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. And so what happened? So you quit guns blazing. You're going viral on the Internet. The comments are going bananas. And how long did it take you to start? I heart. Month?
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B
Couple months? Well, because I kind of thought, you know, that was in November, I think, of 2019. And so I thought, okay, Let me take, like, December to just kind of, like, reach out to editors I know and like, kind of group, like, where am I group? And figure out what I want to do as, like, a freelancer. And so then I started doing some freelance work at the beginning of 2020, and then it was the pandemic, and every publication froze their freelancer budget entirely. So I, like, couldn't work. Yeah. So I might as well work for myself. Yeah. So I, like, fully, fully unemployed, like, living on my sister's couch. Yeah. During the pandemic. And I was like, you know, I was already, like, tweeting stuff pretty similar to, like, what kind of. I mean, I'm writing it longer form, but, like, the gist of what I do in the newsletter is kind of how I was tweeting already, and I was getting, like, a really big following from that. So I was like, what if I just.
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A
What if I do this? And are you still as active on Twitter or Hex?
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B
Not at all.
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A
You're really committed to YouTube and subs.
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B
Well, because, I mean, Twitter is a hellscape. There's a very way more unpleasant. And none of my friends are on anymore. That's why I liked being like people in my writing.
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A
Yeah, it was fun to be.
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B
To chat with me. Yeah, it was fun to, like, chit chat with the girls and they're not there anymore. And then. Yeah, I was also kind of like, why am I putting out this good content that I could just be putting on subsec and, like, getting followers and making money from versus a platform that does nothing?
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A
And how much of your money, if I can ask, do you make from subscribers versus ads and stuff?
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B
I don't have any ads.
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A
Just subscribers.
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B
Yeah, just subscribers. I have one ad on YouTube and that's. Yeah, but everything else is description.
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A
Okay, tell us what's happening in the celebrity world. Did you say bad celebrity fashion?
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B
Yeah, I specifically cover bad celebrity fashion.
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A
Okay, okay, so who's in the. Who's your Mount Rushmore of bad celebrity fashion?
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B
I mean, unfortunately, she doesn't interest me as much as she used to, but she is just kind of a foundational text for me, which is Kim Kardashian.
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A
Okay.
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B
Because my entire background is fashion, working at, like, major publications, mostly tabloids. Okay. So, like, my job was pretty much exclusively covering her very closely her entire. The last 10 years.
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A
Does she have short hair or is it fake short? It's a wig.
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B
It's a wig.
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A
What does she do with all her hair? How can it tuck into that skin?
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B
She Gels it down. She puts under a wig cap. I mean, her hair's, like, super damaged, so she, like, can't do a lot with it.
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A
That's so funny. I always wonder. I'm like, was the hair long or short?
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B
Okay, so Kim Kardashian, she's wearing extensions most of the time.
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A
Oh, okay.
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B
Okay. Sorry.
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A
Okay. This is your world, not mine. Okay, so, Kim Kardashian, who else is in your list?
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B
Oh, I mean, I feel like I end up writing about Julia Fox quite a bit.
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A
Okay.
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B
Just because I don't like what she's doing, but she's doing, like, she pushes boundaries. She does experimental things. She does weird things. I like weird things. I've been really into. There's this stylist, Dot Bass, who I've been really liking their work. They style Sarah Sherman from Saturday Night Live, who she dresses like a very expensive clown, and I just am obsessed with that.
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A
That's a great way to dress.
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B
Yeah. I think it's a very interesting. And it is kind of becoming more. I don't know, it's trending a little bit right now.
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A
Expensive clown.
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B
Expensive clowns. Yeah.
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A
I left the house this morning, and my husband was like, you look homeless. And I'm like, homeless chic.
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B
Yeah, it's chic, right?
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A
Yeah, it's chic. I'm like, there's the artistry to it. The home alone, big wool coat.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, it's a vibe with the high top. So I was like, it doesn't get any better than this. Okay. Okay. So that's great. Who's on. Who do you. Whose fashion do you love, besides the expensive clown lady?
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B
Oh, man. I don't know. It's hard. Celebrities are weird to me because it's like, I don't really feel powerfully about any of them because none of it. It's real. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I like kind of regular people's clothes. I mean, I like Chloe Sevigny always as someone who I, like, come back to because she wears clothes. She's cool. Yeah, yeah, she's cool. And you can tell she's cool in her clothes choices. And I think that's. Whenever I can kind of feel someone's real personality behind the clothes, I think is what I respond to.
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A
And what do you think? Like, stylists. How do you think stylists get it wrong for celebrities? Like, I was having a really random conversation yesterday about how publicists get it wrong.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
So I was. I got this random call. I was in. I had, like, 4,000 meetings. Yesterday, I get this random call from a really good friend of mine who's like, hey, I'm thinking about having a podcast with this other celebrity. And I was like. He's like, you're never. What's your reaction? You're never gonna guess. And I was like, like, it. It'd be great if that person actually has something to say. And he was like, he's being so poorly managed by publicists. I'm like, yeah, he has, like, fucking nothing to say. But, like, do you feel that way with stylists?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think stylists, similar to PR people, are kind of, like, misreading the room a lot of times and, like, either, trying to, like, rage bait with clothing or, like, playing it way too safe and demure and, like, classically chic, which, like. Which is also equally boring.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it's like, you can. I don't know, maybe.
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A
What's, like, a rage bait outfit?
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B
Oh, I mean, Julia Fox's classic anything where you're kind of, like, showing too much body.
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A
Like, the Sydney Sweeney gray dress on the red carpet with her boobs. You know the one I'm talking about?
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B
I mean, that I talk about Sidney a lot in the newsletter because I don't really understand what is going on there. Like, I don't understand if her stylist kind of genuinely hates her and, like, wants to punish her via outfits or if she's, like, not taking full advantage of the level of celebrity that she is. Because it's like, Sydney Sweeney even did this interview about how, like, she was talking about people making fun of her outfits not fitting or whatever, and she's like, well, for your information, like, I'm wearing samples and, like, my boobs don't fit in symbols. It's like, like, yeah, no, we know.
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A
Yeah, we see it.
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B
Why aren't you getting custom things made? Like, why aren't they doing alterations for you? Like, you are famous enough that, like, yeah, you could get accommodations could be made. Like, items of clothing could be purchased. Yeah. Like, you don't even have to just do samples. So it's like someone's lying to you, and I don't know who it is or, like, why. But, like, when you see things that don't fit, it's like, yeah, because that's a sample that's meant for a size, like, double zero model.
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A
Yeah. And not for you.
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B
And not for you because you have.
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A
Like, a bottle when you're close to don't fit.
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B
I wouldn't want to Wear them. And they do have shoes with celebrities all the time too, because those are all samples, so they usually have, like, one size of them. Oh.
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A
So they just shove them in shoes that are too small.
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B
Well, too small are way too big. That's one of my favorite habits on the red carpet, is you can look at the back of heels, and you can usually see about an inch more shoe than there is foot, because they're just giving them whatever they want that shoe to be the shoe. And they're only ever photographing it from the front.
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A
So they're like, this is the shoe.
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B
This is the shoe. This looks right. Like, I don't really care what size it is. Like, we're just gonna wear this and stuff the sho. Or do whatever.
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A
And does the celebrity make money in that case?
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B
Depends. It really depends. Like, most of the time. No. Most of the time, it is just, like, an exchange of goods. Like, you're taking a photograph in our dress. We'll probably invite you to the next fashion show or we'll lend to you again or you know what? But sometimes it can be an ad. I mean, like, if you see Emma Stone, she's, like, always wearing Louis Vuitton, okay? She's a Louis Vuitton spokesperson.
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A
She's getting by them. Okay, so then let's switch back to substack. So how do you feel about the substack community? Like, how do you play in there? Yeah, like, I'm new to it, and I'm like, Jesus. It's like I can't decide if I love it or I hate it.
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B
It's smarmy, I think. I don't like the substack community. Like, when you're digitally, I guess, but, like, when you go to events and stuff, it's like, I've met so many cool people and, like, normal people. I don't know. It's, like, nice to have that kind of.
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A
So what kind of events do you go to?
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B
They have, like, random, like, bestseller meetups or something where they'll invite everyone. Substack will check mark or whatever. Yeah, substack. Or they'll have, like, random events kind of catered to your division. Or. Or they'll, like, you know, a friend of mine, Amelia, runs Shop Rat, and they'll do, like.
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A
Oh, I like Shop Rat too.
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B
She's great. They'll do, like, an event with Shop Rat where they'll have, like, a panel of other subsequent. And she'll interview them or whatever.
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A
Yeah, okay. That's cool.
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B
So there's, like, cool little niche Things like that. Or even through Substack. That's how I met Jess, my podcast co host, which is crazy.
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A
And is she also a substacker?
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B
She's a massive. Yeah.
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A
What's her substack?
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B
She writes Flesh World, which is, like, the biggest beauty publication on Substack.
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A
Wow.
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B
Honestly, business of fashion did a graph recently of, like, all. All of the beauty substacks and, like, the size of them on the platform. Hers is number one. Really? That's crazy. She's crazy.
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A
How long has she been doing it?
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B
I think around the same amount of time as me. Yeah.
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A
And what's your aspiration with my newsletter?
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B
Yeah, just keep doing it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Just keep growing. Yeah, I like doing it. It's like what I think about. And, like, I think people can tell when they read it. Like, it is very much my train of thought. Yeah.
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A
It feels authentic to you?
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B
It's not labor. Yeah, it is truly. Like, I see something I want to talk about, I talk about it. So.
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A
And then what do you think about, like, Emily Sundberg and Barry Weiss and kind of like the queens of Substack? Like, how do you.
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B
I mean, they just. I feel like they're operating in, like, a different echelon of what substack is. And obviously, Emily, I like, we're friends. Barry, not so much.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yep.
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A
Yeah. Barry kind of did it differently, though. Like, I feel like it's in your genre of substack. Like, it's personal.
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B
She's a writer. It's true to her. And, like, what? She's interested in the beats. She was already covering those beats, like, before she started newslettering.
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A
Yeah. That's so cool.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Okay. I love this. Thank you so much for meeting with me.
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B
Of course.
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A
Tell people how to find you and follow you.
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B
Yeah. I'm. I Heart Mass. If you Google I Heart mess, it comes. Find you everywhere. Yeah. Emily Kirkpatrick. I'm Mess Worldwide on Instagram. It's my big Instagram account, so. Yeah.
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A
Oh, I love that. That's a great brand. Did you trademark it?
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B
I Heart Mass is trademark.
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A
Yeah. Good.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Awesome. Well, thank you for coming.
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B
Work, work, work, work, work. Now work.
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A
So that was Emily, and that was a little bite of what is happening in the media ecosystem. Thank you for listening to work. Thank you for listening to conversations in particular. And we will see you back here on the next episode. And you can follow us on substack. You can follow us on YouTube, you can follow us where you listen to your podcast and you can follow us on social media.