Podcast Summary: WORK Conversations - "Why Suffer At Work?"
Host: Erika Ayers Badan
Guest: Selena Rezvani (author, workplace expert)
Release Date: January 26, 2026
Podcast: Work with Erika Ayers Badan
Overview
This episode of "WORK Conversations" features a candid discussion between host Erika Ayers Badan and workplace expert Selena Rezvani, focusing on the culture of suffering at work, how generational shifts (especially Gen Z) are challenging traditional norms, and practical strategies for creating healthier, more successful work environments. With a blend of humor, honesty, and lived experience, the duo tackles topics like burnout, psychological safety, side hustles, middle management struggles, and actionable leadership advice.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. What Does It Mean to "Suffer at Work"?
[00:27]
- Selena Rezvani (SR): Describes how growing skepticism toward employers—rooted in Gen X/Gen Z witnessing the fallout from parental workaholism—perpetuates the sense that work won't "take care of you."
- Economic Uncertainty: The prediction that upcoming generations may be worse off than their parents contributes to pessimism and fear in the workplace.
- Side Hustles as Career Insurance:
- Selena: "There's no kind of opaqueness about that…so many Gen X's and Gen Z's want a side hustle for actual insurance like career insurance." [01:59]
- Erika's Take:
- Notes that side hustling, previously taboo, is now normalized and even necessary in the post-COVID world.
- Observes that employers and systems haven’t adapted to this shift.
2. Generational Shifts: Gen Z and the Workplace
[02:24]
- Collaboration vs. Accountability:
- Erika: "Work in my mind is a collaborative exercise…But it's also an exercise where you have to be accountable…you have to fail to get better at anything." [03:05]
- Co-Creation Expectation:
- SR: Gen Z expects participative environments and input in decisions, clashing with traditional top-down, directive workplaces.
- Quote: "Imagine joining a workplace where emails read directives…It's like reality bites. And that is going to be a harsh awakening." [04:30]
- Accountability & Feedback:
- Erika expresses concern for Gen Alpha, predicting they may struggle even more with negative feedback and lack of validation at work.
3. Psychological Safety (and the Term Itself)
[06:03]
- Both Selena and Erika agree the term "psychological safety" feels uncomfortable yet value its intent.
- Actionable Advice for Leaders:
- Normalize dissent and disagreement; praise critical thinking regardless of outcome.
- Selena: "Some of the smartest teams have dissent and that's a normal baked in part of life." [06:15]
- Leaders must model vulnerability by sharing their own mistakes to build trust and openness.
4. Navigating Workplace Dynamics and Communication
[08:06]
- Data & Truth-Telling:
- Erika uses a workplace anecdote to illustrate how hidden agendas can distort analysis and outcomes.
- Importance of the data role as a provocateur for honest debate, not just reinforcement of preconceptions.
- Avoiding Echo Chambers:
- SR: Managers must watch for over-agreement due to power dynamics.
- Quote: "At no time are your people unaware that you…control their career advancement…so they are probably more likely to say, great idea, Erika." [10:13]
- Leaders should actively invite concerns and challenges from their teams.
5. Thriving at Work: The "Shit Umbrella" Metaphor
[11:03]
- Be the Buffer:
- SR: Advocates for managers acting as a "shit umbrella," protecting their teams from faux urgency and distractions.
- Quote: "There is so much distraction kind of waiting to take your people away from their deep work…when you're that buffer…you are ruthlessly vetting the requests that come in." [11:11]
- Potential Pitfalls:
- Erika highlights her discomfort when managers act as complete gatekeepers, stifling direct engagement with frontline employees—something she acknowledges as a "bad management trait" but effective for her.
6. Middle Management: Most at Risk
[14:45]
- Erika's Observation:
- AI and industry shifts threaten middle managers who do not add clear value or leadership; need to either rise, adapt, or risk obsolescence.
- Quote: "If you're in that group, it's dangerous…if you're in the, like, I hold the status quo and do the bare minimum…It's not going to work out." [16:42]
- Selena's Agreement:
- The manager level experiences the most stress and insecurity, often responsible for managing up and down simultaneously.
- SR: "Being the fit umbrella takes a ton of energy and reserves…is that exhausting." [17:03]
7. The Unrelenting Challenge of Managing People
[18:00]
- Manager Impact on Mental Health:
- Research shows a manager's influence on employee well-being is as significant as that of a spouse or therapist.
- SR: "Your manager has this disproportionate effect on your mental health…it can be for the good or it can be for the negative." [17:41]
- Managing People Is Messy Work:
- Erika: "Managing people is a pain in the ass. Like, it's so hard…It's complaint city, and you don't really get paid for that. Like, it is a constant headache." [18:23]
- Selena compares management to gardening: constant, never finished, with ongoing problems to resolve.
- SR: "If you're like a type a control freak, it's gonna be really hard because…it's a beautiful mess, and you really need to accept that." [19:00]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Career Resilience:
- Selena: "We are the first generation who has the prediction that our kids generation will be less well off than we will. And that's like a huge loss of optimism." [01:44]
- On Psychological Safety:
- Selena: "As leaders, they don't realize how many eyeballs are on them. When somebody does pluck up the courage to, to disagree…praise it…people are going to take cues from that." [06:21]
- On Honest Management:
- Erika: "My problem is it's super effective…and it enables me to move very, very f. I know how to make that work." (regarding her hands-on approach bypassing gatekeeping managers) [13:05]
- On Middle Management Risk:
- Erika: "That is the challenge right now at work, which is workplaces are trying to either optimize, stream or get rid of that group." [15:05]
- On Managing as a Perpetual Effort:
- Selena: "Like the garden metaphor. I've heard you're never done." [19:20]
Important Timestamps
- 00:27 — Defining suffering at work, generational skepticism
- 02:24 — Side hustles, resilience, generational shifts
- 04:20 — Gen Z’s expectations for co-creation and feedback
- 06:03 — Psychological safety and managing dissent
- 08:06 — Honest dialogue, data roles, workplace agendas
- 11:03 — Leadership as a “shit umbrella”, protecting teams
- 14:45 — The peril and stress of middle management in today's workplace
- 17:41 — Managers’ impact on employee mental health
- 19:00 — The unending, messy nature of people management
Closing Resources
- Selena's new book: Quick Leadership (available wherever books are sold)
- Find Selena: celinarezvani.com, plus daily leadership videos on TikTok, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
- Connect with Erika and the podcast: erikaayersbadan.substack.com
Tone & Takeaways:
The conversation is blunt, funny, and unfiltered but packed with warmth and practical wisdom. Both Erika and Selena emphasize that leading and succeeding at work doesn't mean endless suffering—managers can (and must) shape healthier, more collaborative cultures but need to embrace the mess, model vulnerability, and never lose sight of human connection.