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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to work. This is Work Conversations. I have a great guest today. She is I believe a four time author and she is an expert on Gen Z in the workplace which we will definitely be hitting on. How to avoid burnout at work, how to stop suffering at work, which I want to talk about. And this is Selena Rezvani. So Selena, welcome.
- [00:26]
B
Work, work, work, work.
- [00:28]
A
Now work, Let's talk about suffering at work. Like what is suffering at work? I'm a little bit of the variety that you're supposed to suffer at work. Like that's the whole point of work. But what do you, what is in your mind, what is suffering at work and why do people suffer at work and do different types of people suffer differently?
- [00:56]
B
Yeah, what a great question and the first time I've been asked this. So you know, first of all, I think there's a huge boost in employee skepticism. You know, people who grew up and did not necessarily see their parents generation taken care of at work. I know that was the case for me, the daughter of a workaholic on one side and the daughter of a nurse who was like work to death overwork. So I think there's some understandable skepticism in younger generations that's coloring how they view work today. I think there's also a sense that work is not going to take care of me. I am totally replaceable. And there's no kind of opaqueness about that. And I think it's something that causes so many Gen X's and Gen Z's to want a side hustle for actual insurance like career insurance, knowing they can't necessarily count on their employer to be that. But I think there's something else which is we're the first generation who has the prediction that our kids generation will be less well off than we will. And that's like a huge loss of optimism just generally speaking, you know, about where the world is headed. And I think that applies to work too and causes some of that suffering.
- [02:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's funny, it's interesting. I agree with what you're saying. I think everyone is thinking about a side hustle. Either has a side hustle, wishes they had a side hustle. And that's a big part of the culture that I don't think the systems and the structures and companies have quite gotten their heads around. Like you're going to have an employee base that that is doing other things and what are the conflicts of interest, how do those things support one another? I see it personally like it was, you know, I would say pre Covid it would never have occurred to me that you could have a side hustle, that you could do two jobs at once or make three things at once. And now I find myself doing it and I think that it's, I just think it's quite pervasive. I think the second piece is I think people are less resilient at work where and I'm interested to talk to you about this, which is you describe Gen Z as you know, they were. It's a co creating generation. It's a generation that is used to collaborating and group projects and you're kind of in this thing together. And work in my mind is a collaborative exercise and one where you need cohesion. But it's also an exercise where you have to be accountable, you have to have discipline, you have to, you have to fail to get better at anything. And one thing that I don't love in today's workplace is just the. And I think that Gen Alpha will be even have a harder time with this versus even Gen Z is like you're going to get hard feedback. Not everybody's going to like you, not everyone's going to validate you, not everyone's going to support you. And what do you see? How do you see that?
- [04:21]
B
Well, I think that Gen Z is used to what you described. This very participative world they grew up in where they have a voice, they can shape the game they're playing, they can leave a Yelp review at that restaurant, they've got the school projects right where their voice counts. Imagine joining a workplace where emails read directives, you know, or sometimes meetings are run like monologues from one person. It's like reality bites. And that is going to be a harsh awakening for people who are just kind of joining the workplace. And I don't think we can blame Gen Z for expecting a little more co creation.
- [05:08]
A
I think that's a good actually.
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B
How can I be part of the solution?
- [05:11]
A
Yeah, more co creation. I'm a big fan of that. I think great ideas come from everywhere and I'm super down with that. I also think people have a lot of really stupid ideas at work. And when your idea's stupid, at least in my workplace, somebody's gonna say something. And I also think that that's okay, but it should be. The other piece that you talk about is Psychological Safety at Work, which I wanna talk about. I hate the phrase psychological safety at work. It just makes me feel like it's like a woke phrase. But I do agree with the intention of it, which is you should feel comfortable and safe and not sabotaged and not manipulated and not lied to. So how do you see psychological safety? Like what do you see that, what is that trend at work?
- [06:04]
B
Yeah, I like the spirit of it too. I don't also love the term. It feels like, I don't know from a.
- [06:11]
A
It feels like creepy, jarring. Yeah, I agree with that.
- [06:16]
B
But I think there's a few things you can do. You know, speaking of co creation, making it really safe and comfortable to disagree, to dissent. Some of the smartest teams have dissent and that's a normal baked in part of life. And I think as leaders they don't realize how many eyeballs are on them. When somebody does pluck up the courage to, to disagree that says I have a concern about that, I have a worry. You can look annoyed, you can roll your eyes, you know, you can act like this is slowing us down. Can you just move on and get over it? I think it's so important when somebody raises a question like that even if you can't grant what they're asking for to praise it. Yeah, you know, we have to stick with the deadline as tight as it is, but keep thinking critically about things that way or I'm glad you're in that train of thought. You know people are going to take cues from that and they're going to feel a sense of safety and encouragement to raise their issue next time.
- [07:21]
A
Yeah.
- [07:22]
B
I think another is talking about your mistakes like they are real and learning moments in your own life. We all have them. A time we under communicated, you know, a time we thought no news was good news. All kinds of things. If it relates to your topic, tell it to your people and what they can take from it and maybe avoid in their own life. They are going to see you as a human being and not a stoic like cement pillar. And they're also going to feel that much more open coming to you and disclosing maybe a mistake that happened or being honest with the team. Yeah, you know, so I think.
- [08:06]
A
Yep, that's another one. We had an interesting slack exchange this morning where I was talking about kind of like self fulfilling prophecies a little bit which is if you're in the data group and somebody wants to publish in our world somebody wants to publish less content. And the business person says hey data person, I want to publish less content. Can you run an analysis of how much content we are making? But really the subtext of the ask is prove that we're publishing too much content. And I thought it Was a really interesting discussion because I'm like, well, but isn't the name of the game growth, like in our world, the objective is to grow more engaged audiences. So wouldn't we be running our study to understand what is the optimal amount of content that you need to publish to be able to have the biggest, most growing, fastest growing, highly engaged audience? And I think one thing that happens at work is people kind of get caught in other people's agendas and you forget to have the like, ooh. My job as a data person is to tell the truth, to show you what the numbers show, and to provoke a debate or prompt a conversation about what your strategy is to hit the objective. And I think that that's an interesting place. The other thing we talked a lot about was not just telling people what they want to hear. So I think a lot of times at work, people try to just a, either tell people just what they want to hear or, or B, they don't want to, you know, the kind of no news is good news. Like in. In my opinion, no news is a disaster.
- [10:03]
B
Yes, I agree with you. And I think as managers, we can call that out that, that urge to say yes to the manager. And I say to people, like, at no time are your people unaware that you control. You have a lot of the power. You control their career advancement, their job security, their paycheck. So they are probably more likely to say, great idea, Erica.
- [10:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
- [10:31]
B
Let's do it. You know, So I think sometimes as the manager, we need to be able to. Willing to say when there's over agreement. Like, guys, that was either the best idea I've ever had in my entire life or you're not voicing some of your concerns or worries. Let's get them out on the table.
- [10:53]
A
And what's your advice? So talk a little bit about the book and talk to me a little bit about what's the advice that you give to people about thriving at work.
- [11:03]
B
Yes. Well, one of the things that's so important is seeing yourself as a kind of buffer. As a manager, I think it's one of your most important jobs. And I have a lot of spicier of a term for it I use in the book in quick leadership. I call, call it be the shit umbrella. And the reason is there's so much faux urgency. There is so much distraction kind of waiting to take your people away from their deep work and their focus time and sometimes their best contributions. And when you're that buffer, when you actively take a role as the guardian of their time. You are ruthlessly vetting the requests that come in of them. You know, you're taking the onus sometimes to say all run point on that and tell the department over, you know, next over that. In fact, we can't help with that this week that we're trying to get through a sprint. You know, really seeing yourself as that because I'm surprised how many managers I see that are just like each of you, fend for yourselves, huh?
- [12:15]
A
That's it. What about. So I have two questions for you on that. One is, see, I agree with the shit umbrella for your people, but I also feel as a CEO, when I have a manager who reports to me who's a shit umbrella for the people, and then I don't have visibility into what the people are doing and there's not a whole lot of visibility being created by the manager, I find it very frustrating. I don't like that. I don't like the hey, don't ever talk to my team, just go through me mentality, which is something for people who work for me. Like, that is a problem in my management style. Like, I want to talk to the person doing the thing always. I don't give a fuck who they report to. That is a bad management trait that I have. But my problem is it's super effective and it enables me to move very, very f. I know how to make that work. But so what is your advice to someone with my style or that type of situation? Because the reality is managers are right to want to protect their people and managers are right to not want CEOs or other people bombing in. But I also feel like there's a responsibility with that of like you, then if the shit umbrella includes becoming the communicator and the connector. And so how do you see that?
- [13:45]
B
Yeah, my first instinct as a coach especially would be not to bridle somebody's curiosity or interest in somebody on the front lines. I think it's wonderful and I think there's a lack of it. So I wouldn't want to stifle that connection. I think in terms of delegated tasks, I think it is important that there is somebody providing air coverage or who has awareness of where their team.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Expectations and what that one person who's got the purview and can see the whole dashboard. I don't think your communication has to be limited though, to those frontline people. And I think. I think it's a positive instinct.
- [14:35]
A
I don't know whether you're telling me what I want to hear experts would.
- [14:38]
B
Answer the same way as me is another thing that I work on calling culture and leadership. So I'd rather see you in touch than out of touch.
- [14:46]
A
Yeah, no, 100%. I think that's actually one of the big issues I see at work is that I think my uber point on it is this, is that I think the world is moving to. We're living in a chaotic time of uncertainty and people want certainty because lack of certainty creates fear. And businesses and investors want more certainty. Right. They want profitable growth. This era or bubble of unprofitable growth if you don't work in AI or massive tech or defense, like unprofitable growth is not acceptable any longer. And as a result, I really think this middle group of people who you're talking to is the most at risk group. Because AI is going to be a great backstop. It's a great accelerator, it's a great enabler. And you then have people who want to hustle and move and are at the beginning of their career and are more affordable and more malleable and more interested and hungry. And then you get this middle management group that is, you know, more set in their ways. They're more expensive, they're more. They have bigger opinions. And I think that actually that is the challenge right now at work, which is workplaces are trying to either optimize, stream or get rid of that group. And I think if you're in that group, it's dangerous because you've got to either rise to the top and be the best and you're at the point to get to the next place, you have to be effective at managing people and probably a lot of people and more people that you have. But if you're in the, like, I hold the status quo and do the bare minimum and don't kind of like push everything or certain or the right things forward. It's not going to work out.
- [16:45]
B
Yeah. I think they also. That manager layer has the most migraines right now too. I think it is a dangerous, insecure place to be, but it's also incredibly stressful. Being the fit umbrella takes a ton of energy and reserves to always be blocking and tackling. Right. That's one of the things managers have told me is like, I won't stop doing it, but my goodness, is that exhausting.
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A
Yeah.
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B
To constantly do that. And that's only part of my job.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, so I think I'm not convinced that just doing away with it is gonna satisfy needs.
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A
Yeah.
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B
At the same time, I don't think it's necessarily being done well today.
- [17:31]
A
Yeah. And I also. Sorry, go ahead.
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B
No, I was just gonna say there's research that shows your manager has this disproportionate effect on your mental health.
- [17:41]
A
Yeah.
- [17:42]
B
And that can be for the good or it can be for the negative, but on par with your spouse, your therapist, and. Wow.
- [17:50]
A
Yeah. It's a huge relationship. It's a huge. I'm so glad you said that, because when I wrote my book, I was really feeling that no one was teaching managers, no one was helping managers manage. And I still think that's very true. I think the second piece is that everyone's kind of waiting at work. Like a social norm in workplaces, where if there's a lot of people on an email, like, who goes first and how does it work and who responds, and there's power dynamics and all sorts of dynamics in that. But I also think managing people is a pain in the ass. Like, it's so hard. You have problems all the time. It's complaint city, and you don't really get paid for that. Like, it is a constant headache. And it's so interesting because I think if you have the right mindset, the right vision, the right level of accountability, the right level of silliness and fun, the right level of entrepreneurship, like, it can be incredible, but if you don't, then it's just a drag.
- [19:01]
B
Oh, you're so right. If you're like a type a control freak, it's gonna be really hard because it's. I was just talking to someone saying it's a beautiful mess, and you really need to accept that. Like you said, maybe bringing some play and some humor and fun to it, acknowledging, accepting that mess. But absolutely. I think it's kind of like the garden metaphor. I've heard you're never done.
- [19:28]
A
Yeah, no. There's always weeds to pull and plants. Exactly. Rocks to throw out and all of that. That's great. Selina, tell people how they can find, how they can find your book, and just give them a sense of how they can get more of this conversation and more of your wisdom about work.
- [19:50]
B
Yeah, I'd love to stay in touch with folks. I just wrote this book, Quick Leadership, and that's available anywhere books are sold. You can find me at my website@celinarezvani.com and I make leadership videos five days a week on TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn. So check them out, give me feedback, tell me what videos you want to see. They're all about handling those sticky situations at work.
- [20:15]
A
That's great. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you.
- [20:18]
B
Thank you so much. And keep doing what you're doing. I love your work.
- [20:22]
A
Oh, thank you so much. I can't wait to read your book. I'm very excited about it and I love that it's quick. I think quickness is so important.
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B
I have a bias toward quick things.
- [20:31]
A
Same, same, same, same. Awesome. Have a great day, Selena. Thank you so much.
- [20:35]
B
You too. Work, work, work, work, work.
- [20:41]
A
Now work. That was Selena. I thought that was interesting. I like the idea of quick leadership. I like the honesty and kind of the bluntness about why it's hard to be a manager at work. I think there's also a really great lesson from the gen zers in terms of co creation and co collaboration and really giving voice to people and opinions and finding ways to make and acceptable and actually even rewarded for people to participate at work. And so that was work conversations. You can follow me, Erica. You can follow at work, wherever you follow podcasts and you can find us with everything that we're doing on substack.