WORK Underlined: Narrative and Numbers

Podcast: Work with Erika Ayers Badan
Host: Erika Ayers Badan | Guest: Suhan
Episode Date: February 5, 2026

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Erika Ayers Badan and co-host Suhan delve into the relationship between storytelling (narrative) and factual data (numbers) in both business and personal growth. Drawing inspiration from the quote, “Narrative driving numbers early in the life cycle and numbers driving narrative later,” by Professor Aswath Damodaran, they examine how successful companies—and individuals—navigate the interplay between vision and measurement, and why both are crucial for sustainable success.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power of Narrative at the Start

[00:00–02:05]

• The episode opens with Erika reflecting on the necessity of having a dream, vision, and purpose, even when the end goal isn’t clear:

  “Even today, I don’t know exactly where I’m going… but I know I want to try." (Erika, 00:00)

• Erika emphasizes how narrative isn’t just a business tool—it’s what propels not only organizations but also individuals and communities.
• Suhan introduces the central quote and questions: When do stories matter most, and when do facts take over? How do narrative and measurement swap importance as things evolve?

2. Numbers and Narrative—Their Tensions and Convergence

[02:05–07:43]

• Erika describes two archetypes in organizations: “numbers people” and “narrative people,” admitting, “I think in narratives. I like numbers, but I like narratives better.” (Erika, 02:05)
• She argues that narrative is crucial for propelling a vision forward—especially when little else exists in the early days.
• Numbers eventually become needed to validate the narrative; when numbers don’t support the dream, the story collapses:

  “Numbers, if they don’t map to the narrative, can kill a narrative in a heartbeat… and ultimately, it’s the numbers which change the narrative.” (Erika, 02:05)

• Erika uses the evolution of Dave Matthews Band as a pop culture analogy for how narratives shift as success and metrics change.
• Real-life example: A high-level business meeting where narrative (brand strength, transformation story) had to be reconciled with precise financials—demonstrating the natural tension and the need for both.
• Insight: Exceptional numbers (e.g., unexpectedly high-performing video content) can create new narratives and guide strategic priorities.

3. When to Shift Focus from Narrative to Numbers

[07:43–11:17]

• Suhan brings up the challenge of timing: How long should a leader ride the narrative before turning to numbers? And what about infamous examples—Amazon’s long narrative arc versus Theranos or FTX’s narrative masking reality?
• Erika’s take:

  “You never let go of a narrative… If you let go of a narrative, then what are we doing here?” (Erika, 08:33)

• She distinguishes between honest visions versus deliberate deception—emphasizing that fraudulent narratives (like Theranos/FTX) are entirely different from visionary storytelling.
• Numbers, she insists, must regularly check and inform the narrative to prevent drift or delusion.
• Example from her music industry days: “The narrative was awesome, but the numbers didn’t match the narrative… it actually wasn’t working.” (Erika, ~09:30)
• Commentary on business press: How numbers become the new narrative, fueling public perception, e.g., Penn National’s market share versus projected ambitions.

4. Applying Narrative & Numbers Personally

[11:17–12:27]

• Suhan asks how these concepts apply at an individual level. Erika responds:

  “You have to have a dream and you have to have a vision and you have to have a purpose… so the narrative propels you.” (Erika, 11:23)

• If your numbers (e.g., savings toward a personal goal) don't support your narrative, your actions aren’t in line with your aspirations.
• The check-and-balance mechanism between narrative (vision) and numbers (progress/truth) applies universally: big business, small startups, or personal life.

5. The Central Quote

[12:35–12:50]

• Erika closes by restating her favorite quote:

  “Narrative driving numbers early in the life cycle and numbers driving narrative later.”
  (Erika quoting Aswath Damodaran, 12:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the origin of vision:

  “The narrative is what you tell yourself. It’s what you tell your family, it’s what you tell others. It’s what you dream about… it is your vision.”
  (Erika, 00:00 & 11:23)

• On narrative vs. numbers conflict:

  “Numbers, if they don’t map to the narrative, can kill a narrative in a heartbeat.”
  (Erika, 02:05)

• On fraudulent narratives:

  “Those were frauds… that’s its own type of narrative which lands you in jail or wherever you go from there.”
  (Erika, 08:38)

• On knowing when to shift:

  “You never let go of a narrative… but I do think you have to check with the numbers always and intuitively.”
  (Erika, 08:33 & 09:10)

• On personal application:

  “If your vision is to save a lot of money and go fly fishing in New Zealand for a year and you’re not saving any money… then the numbers aren’t supporting your narrative, which means your behavior isn’t mapping to your vision.”
  (Erika, 11:23)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Vision & Narrative as Fuel: 00:00–02:05
• The Tension and Dance of Numbers vs. Narrative: 02:05–07:43
• When to Prioritize Numbers, Cautionary Tales: 07:43–11:17
• Individual Application: 11:17–12:27
• Central Quote & Closing: 12:35–12:50

Episode Tone & Style

Erika’s tone remains candid, humorous, and direct, with a blend of big-picture thinking and real-world anecdotes. Suhan serves as an anchor, posing practical questions and bringing in relevant examples. The conversation is dense with insight but accessible—perfect for both business leaders and individuals navigating their own paths.

Summary Takeaways

• Narratives spark vision and fuel early growth; numbers validate, evolve, or even overtake the story as things mature.
• You can’t sustain belief—inside or outside an organization—if numbers and narrative don’t align.
• This dynamic applies as much to personal goals as to company strategy.
• Great leaders (and anyone striving for something) must constantly balance dreaming big with facing the facts, adjusting course as both narrative and numbers evolve.

For more conversations like this, you can follow Erika and her work on Substack and social media.