Decoding cross-cultural communication with Erin Meyer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Worklife with Adam Grant – "Decoding Cross-Cultural Communication with Erin Meyer"

Release Date: February 25, 2025

In this insightful episode of Worklife with Adam Grant, host Adam Grant engages in a compelling conversation with Erin Meyer, a renowned expert in cross-cultural communication and co-author of The Culture Map. Produced in partnership with TED and Transmitter Media, this episode delves deep into the intricacies of how cultural differences shape our interactions in the workplace, offering valuable strategies for fostering effective communication in diverse environments.

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1. Introduction to Cross-Cultural Communication

Adam Grant opens the discussion by highlighting Erin Meyer's expertise in understanding how cultural variances impact workplace dynamics. He notes her extensive experience living in Africa, Europe, and the US, and references her pivotal work, The Culture Map, which serves as a key resource for decoding international interactions.

[01:59] Adam Grant: "Erin is a professor at INSEAD, where she's been recognized as one of the world's most influential management thinkers."

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2. Erin's Defining Moment in Cultural Miscommunication

Erin Meyer recounts a pivotal experience during her book tour in Japan, where she faced a significant cultural miscommunication that deepened her understanding of cross-cultural nuances.

[02:32] Erin Meyer: "So Turkey, they have an expression... what we call triangulating, which is that I can give feedback to one person that I'm close to in front of someone else that I'm not close to, and the person who's listening will understand the feedback is for them."

She describes how in Japan, subtle cues like eye contact can signify a desire to engage but may not be overtly expressed, contrasting with American expectations of active participation.

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3. Emotional Expressiveness and Participation

A fundamental topic discussed is the variance in emotional expressiveness across cultures. Erin explains that American culture tends to be more participative and expressive, especially in meetings, compared to many other cultures that value restraint and careful preparation.

[06:32] Adam Grant: "This goes to one of the fundamental cross-cultural differences that you've spoken and written pretty extensively about, which is emotional expressiveness."

Erin attributes the high level of participation in the US to educational practices that reward speaking up, even without substantial contributions, fostering an environment where verbal engagement is equated with commitment.

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4. Communication Styles: Low vs. High Context

Erin Meyer introduces the concept of low-context versus high-context communication, emphasizing how cultural homogeneity influences the need for explicit verbalization.

[11:10] Erin Meyer: "I talk about that as low content context versus high context communication... in Japan, like, a good communicator can pick up all of those unspoken messages in the air."

She illustrates how cultures with diverse linguistic backgrounds, like the US, rely more on explicit communication, whereas more homogeneous societies, such as Japan, depend on non-verbal cues and implicit understanding.

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5. The Trust Scale: Cognitive vs. Effective Trust

A critical dimension presented is the distinction between cognitive trust and effective trust. Cognitive trust is based on reliability and competence, while effective trust stems from an emotional bond and personal connection.

[25:06] Erin Meyer: "The first is that I do think it's fascinating to look around the US and to see how the populations that immigrated to different parts of the US have created different regional differences."

Erin emphasizes that establishing effective trust can mitigate misunderstandings and enhance the impact of direct feedback across cultures.

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6. Adapting Organizational Culture: The Netflix Case Study

Erin shares her collaboration with Netflix in adapting their culture of "radical candor" to fit international offices in Tokyo, Sao Paulo, Singapore, and Amsterdam.

[29:19] Erin Meyer: "They did try to implement that same environment, that same type of organizational culture in places like Tokyo and Sao Paulo. And I remember going out there to do interviews after the first year, and things were not going well."

She explains how Netflix had to tailor their feedback mechanisms to respect local cultural norms, eventually finding success by integrating cultural sensitivity into their approach. For instance, in Brazil, feedback was given during lunches to foster a relational environment, while in Tokyo, structured 360-degree feedback dinners proved effective.

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7. Lightning Round: Quick Insights

Towards the end of the episode, Adam and Erin engage in a lightning round, addressing common questions about cross-cultural interactions.

• Worst Advice for Cross-Cultural Interaction:

  [36:38] Erin Meyer: "Don't make jokes. I do believe that as humans the most important thing we can do is laugh together and that when we laugh it builds bonds."

• Most Important Tip for Improving Cross-Cultural Interaction:

  [37:26] Erin Meyer: "I think the most important one is that we get a conversation started... if we can keep these three things in mind, then we can open a dialogue with curiosity and humility."

• Common Misconception About American Culture in Europe:

  [38:48] Erin Meyer: "Americans are superficial, hypocritical and fake... it's not that we've offered you friendship and then turned our back on you. It's that in our culture, that's not an offer of friendship."

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8. Building Trust and Respect Across Cultures

Throughout the conversation, Erin and Adam emphasize the importance of balancing honesty with respect to build trust in multicultural settings. Adam reflects on his personal experiences, underscoring that fostering trust can make direct feedback more effective and less likely to damage professional relationships.

[27:54] Erin Meyer: "Once we get the trust right, then other issues like, are we giving feedback in a way that is going to be the most productive become less important."

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Conclusion: Strategies for Effective Cross-Cultural Communication

The episode concludes with actionable strategies for enhancing cross-cultural interactions:

• Initiate Conversations About Communication Styles: Encourage open dialogue about how different cultures approach feedback, trust, and interaction.

• Adapt Organizational Practices Locally: Tailor feedback and communication strategies to align with the cultural norms of each international office or team.

• Foster Both Cognitive and Effective Trust: Build both reliability and emotional bonds to create a solid foundation for honest and respectful communication.

Adam Grant and Erin Meyer leave listeners with the understanding that successful cross-cultural communication requires continuous learning, empathy, and adaptation to navigate the complex landscape of global workplaces effectively.

[42:33] Adam Grant: "When we're interacting across cultures, we should communicate about how to communicate effectively. Let's put our cultural values on the table and then figure out if we care about both honesty and respect, what the most compelling ways are to combine those principles."

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This episode of Worklife with Adam Grant offers a profound exploration of cross-cultural communication, equipping listeners with the knowledge and tools to thrive in increasingly globalized work environments.

Transcript

[Adam Grant]

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[Erin Meyer]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Erin Meyer]

When I work with these international companies who are working around the world, the non Americans will say, oh my gosh, like why do Americans talk so much in meetings?

[Adam Grant]

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast on the Science of what Makes Us Tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Erin Meyer. She's my favorite expert on how we communicate and collaborate differently around the world. Erin's lived in Africa, Europe and the US and her book the Culture Map is the most useful resource I've encountered for decoding cross cultural interactions.

[Erin Meyer]

So Turkey, they have an expression which is dear daughter in law, listen to what I'm saying to my daughter because the message is not for her, it's for you. And that's what we call triangulating, which is that I can give feedback to one person that I'm close to in front of someone else that I'm not close to, and the person who's listening will understand the feedback is for them.

[Adam Grant]

Erin is a professor at insead, where she's been recognized as one of the world's most influential management thinkers. She also co authored a book, no Rules Rules with Reed Hastings, the Netflix co founder and longtime CEO. Across her different projects and accomplishments, she's discovered a through line.

[Erin Meyer]

I do believe that the value of honesty is something that we see in every country around the world.

[Adam Grant]

In that spirit, we're going to get honest about cultural differences and bridging divides. Erin Meyer, welcome to Rethinking.

[Erin Meyer]

Nice to be here, Adam.

[Adam Grant]

I've always wondered if you had a defining moment where you committed some kind of cultural faux pas and said, okay, I have to learn more about this.

[Erin Meyer]

I think the one that marked me the most was after I just written a book on cross cultural differences and I went on book tour and I was in the U.S. you know, I gave a presentations at bookstores, et cetera. Afterwards I would ask if there were any questions. Always a bunch of people would raise their hands. Then I went to Tokyo and at the end I asked if there were any questions and no one raised their hand. So I was a little bit disappointed. I went to sit down and my Japanese counterpart, Tomoko, who worked for the publisher, came up to me and she kind of said, you know Erin, I think there were some questions. Would you like me to try? And I said, yes, please. So she stood up and she said, professor Meyer has just spoken with you. Do you have any questions? And no one raised their. But she stopped and she silently looked around the room. And then after a few seconds, she gestured to someone who was sitting there, from my perspective, motionless. And she said, yes, do you have a question? And this Japanese guy sat up straight. He said, oh, thank you, I do. He asked a fascinating question. So she did that a couple more times. And afterwards I said to her, but you know, Tomoko, how did you know that those people had questions? And she said, well, it had to do with how bright their eyes were. And I thought, oh my gosh, like for me coming from Minnesota, like I do, that is really challenging. But then she clarified. She said, well, you know, Erin, in Japan we don't make as much direct eye contact as you do in the West. So when you asked the group if there were any questions, most people weren't looking right at you. They were kind of, maybe kind of looking somewhere else. But a couple of people were really like, looking right at you. So look for the eye contact is what she told me. So the next day I gave another presentation. Again, I asked if there were any questions. Again, no one raised their hand. But that time I wanted to try. So I did what she suggested. There was one Japanese guy in the room and he kind of like grabbed me with his eyes. So I looked at him and he held my gaze and I thought, well, gosh, are his eyes bright? I mean, I don't know, but I wanted to try. So I made a little bit of a gesture and he nodded his head and I said, oh, do you have a question? And he asked a fascinating question. And I have to say that was such critical moment for me because when I got back to insead, where I teach these incredibly international classrooms on a daily basis, I saw that there were all of these bright eyes in my classes that I had been entirely missing because of my American assumption that if someone had something to say, they would raise their hand. I mean, of course I had already done a lot of research on cultural differences at that point, but it really highlights how we need to be constantly thinking about how to improve our communication when we're working in these international environments.

[Adam Grant]

This goes to one of the fundamental cross cultural differences that you've spoken and written pretty extensively about, which is emotional expressiveness. My read of the evidence is that the Americas tend to be a lot more expressive than the rest of the world.

[Erin Meyer]

I would say we talk more than any other culture in the world when it comes to meetings. I've reflected on that and I believe it's because we have a participation grade in our schooling system, which is unusual in the world. And I don't know about you, Adam. Like, when I was kid in the us I almost had my hand raised even before I knew what the question was, because I wanted to get that extra credit from asking questions. So I think that we have a lot of training on speaking up without preparing in the US and we see that if someone speaks, even if they don't contribute a lot, the fact that they said something shows engagement. And that's so different from so many parts of the world where if you speak without thinking carefully or without preparing what you're going to say, that that really suggests that you're wasting other people's time. I had this Italian woman who said to me, you know, I was in this meeting and like my American colleague, she said, oh, I just would like to reiterate what Philip had to say. And then she reiterated what Philip had to say. Why does she reiterate it if Philip already said it? And of course, in the US culture, I mean, we really are trained to make sure we said something, even if it's just a repetition of what someone else said.

[Adam Grant]

Really interesting on a few levels. The first one is that by that definition of wasting time, I guess all podcasts are time wasted. I guess if you're not allowed to speak unless you're prepared, this medium should not exist.

[Erin Meyer]

Well, I guess so. But, you know, I think what's so interesting is if you think about the other side of it, and this is where things become so important. I'm sure you've had these experiences in your classes too, Adam, where you see that some cultures participate so much more than others do. And you know, I was working with a team a while ago, which is American group. They purchased this big operation in China, and the Americans are complaining that when the Chinese managers come to meet with them that they're disengaged because they don't speak much in the meetings. But then I talked to the Chinese leader of that team and he said it's so frustrating because we prepare for hours before these meetings and then we go into these meetings and our Western colleagues or our American colleagues, they're just interested in showing off their knowledge and they just want to hear themselves talk. And I think that that's a really critical difference. Around the world, when we're leading multicultural meetings, that we really need to be thinking about how to make sure that we are creating a balanced environment. And that might mean that we take the time to really call on people who haven't spoken up yet. Maybe after you've spoken twice, then you need to stop and call on someone else who hasn't spoken yet before you speak again. And of course, with these virtual platforms that we're all working on now, we have the ability to say, hey, you know, go ahead and raise your electronic hand or put your comments into the chat box. Which I think in itself leads a lot to a lot more diversity of opinion in our meetings.

[Adam Grant]

I'm struck by the fact that some of the differences you're describing around participation and self expression are often attributed to individualism, collectivism. In collectivistic cultures, you're supposed to pay attention to what's best for the group. In individualistic cultures, it's a little bit easier for to do the kind of. Well, here's what I think. Let me put my perspective on the table. I've been really curious about how that evolved and I Want to get your reaction to some research I've read that that really shaped my thinking on this. So Paula Niedenthal and colleagues studied how expressiveness evolves in different cultures. And what they look at is both emotional expressiveness between countries and also differences between US States. And they show that. But essentially the like, the, the level of expressiveness is explained by historical migration patterns. So if you had lots of different languages moving to an area, like people had to gesture, they had to have very evocative facial expressions because they literally couldn't understand each other. Whereas if a culture was more homogeneous from a language perspective, they could use their words to be clear and they wouldn't have to do the like, the paying attention to hand signals. We're, we're suggesting or close reading of facial expressions. And I'm curious to hear your reaction to that.

[Erin Meyer]

The first is that I do think it's fascinating to look around the US and to see how the populations that immigrated to different parts of the US have created different regional differences. So, for example, when it comes to feedback, clearly the most direct part of the US Is New York. And the two most direct cultures in the world, when it comes to how, let's say upfront or maybe blunt or frank we are with providing feedback, are Israel and the Netherlands. And of course those are two populations that have had a huge impact on New York culture. Right. I mean, New York was New Amsterdam. And of course the Jewish culture has had such a big imprint on that area. I'm from Minnesota, which was formed by a group of Scandinavians. We tend to be rather conflict avoidant in Minnesota. They say Minnesota, nice, right. And that comes from Swedish culture, where consensus building is so important in that culture. So we try to avoid confronting people openly. So I do love that idea of really thinking about how different immigrant populations have actually impacted the way that we communicate in different parts of the US but the second part is more linked to this aspect of being more emotionally expressive when we're from different parts of the world. I mean, what I've seen specifically is that the more heterogeneous the group, the more explicit we are in our communication. So I talk about that as low content context versus high context communication. I've lived in France 24 years. We have an expression in French which is sus entendu, and it means don't listen to what I said, listen to what I meant. So there's like a lot of kind of like speaking between the lines and picking up implicit messages. And then in Japan, the highest context culture also an extremely homogeneous population. There is an expression, kuki yomenai, which means someone who cannot read the the air. So in Japan, like, a good communicator can pick up all of those unspoken messages in the air. Of course, in the us where we don't have a lot of shared history, we've only been living together for a couple of hundreds of years, we have learned to be much more explicit when it comes to sense of humor. I think this is very interesting. So, like, I was in the UK a couple of weeks ago, and often my British collaborators, they're saying things, and I think it's a joke, but I'm not sure, so I don't dare laugh, right? And I'm always saying, if you would please do what we do in the US when we make a joke, which is we put a label on it. So we make the joke and then we say, just kidding, they will not do that. I had this Italian guy in my class just a couple of weeks ago, and he said, but, Aaron, that's not the end of the story. And I said, okay, what's the end of the story? But he was living in Silicon Valley. He said, well, the end of the story is that in Italy, you make a joke and the other person thinks it's funny, they laugh, right? He said, but in the us, if you make a joke and the other person thinks it's funny, they say that's funny. That's just a silly little example, but I think it illustrates how our communication style in the US is so explicit. Like we have to say, oh, it's a joke. That's funny.

[Adam Grant]

I have a slightly different interpretation of that, which is that's funny as code for I was amused, but it wasn't so funny that I'm laughing uncontrollably.

[Erin Meyer]

That's right.

[Adam Grant]

But I still want to give you props.

[Erin Meyer]

How about, that's hysterical.

[Adam Grant]

Ooh, yeah, yeah. Why would you ever say that you should just laugh? To give the feedback. The puzzle is, in the U.S. obviously, there's state by state variation, but in general, we're a more participative and expressive culture. And yet we are so indirect when it comes to feedback and constructive criticism. And even as a native Midwesterner, like Michigan, not Minnesota here, but Midwest nice is a thing. It's not state specific. It's always bothered me, and I've never understood why so many Americans struggle with the difference between being direct in what you say and then respectful in how you say it. Like we can do both at the.

[Erin Meyer]

Same time in the Us, we have this whole thing about giving lots of feedback, right? We. We love feedback. We talk about feedback. We want to do it frequently. We give it, we write it down. But that being said, what we do specifically in the US that is so confusing to many other cultures is that we wrap so much positives around negatives. So this whole thing, you know, this G3 positives with every negative and catching people doing things right. And if I need to tell you that I didn't like something that you did, I should first tell you what I liked in detail, which shows respect. And then I can move on to telling you what I'd like you to do differently. I've been doing work on a new dimension, which is a positive feedback scale. And I've seen that Americans give more positive feedback and stronger positive feedback than any other culture in the world. And that's very confusing. This kind of like, this was fabulous, and this is wonderful, and this needs to change. So they're left kind of with this, like, I don't understand what the real message was anymore. So I was, you know, working with this French woman a while ago. In French, there isn't even a word for feedback. If you want to say feedback, you have to say it in English, right? She moves to the US and after a few months, her boss gives her some feedback. He's not happy with her work, but he starts by telling her, you know, this was really good, and I appreciate your efforts here. And, you know, this research was really very strong. And she thinks, oh, my gosh, that was the best feedback I've ever received. By the time he gets to the real message, she's not even listening anymore. And that's something that I can see again and again, like in performance reviews across cultures, that the Americans think they've been clear, but the European has totally missed the message. So, yeah, I think that these are things that we need to think about. And one thing that I've noticed is that in the American school system, we put such a strong emphasis on building self esteem in our children, which is so different than most of the world cultures where there's much more of an emphasis in the school system. Like in France, it would be on reaching excellence or on making sure that the children are being pushed to move beyond where they are currently. So that's critical. And maybe I can just tell a story about my own children. So I have these two boys, Ethan and Logan, and they are now teenagers. And they were born in France, They've always lived in France, but I've been taking them to the US in the summer and putting them in schools in the US So they can learn to read and write better in English in the US When Logan comes home from school, he shows me his paper and his teacher will have written something, you know, like, fantastic job, smiley face, or wonderful work, exclamation mark. But what's really important is what she does when he doesn't do well. So when he doesn't do well, she writes things like, you are almost there, a little more effort, and you are on your way. And that is so different than their French school experience. So here in France, he comes home and he'll show me his paper and there are always red marks all over it. And the teacher will have written something like exclamation mark, which means apply yourself. Sometimes she writes N A, which means skills not acquired. And. And when I see that feedback, I have an emotional reaction. I think, oh, he's going to lose his self confidence and start hating school. But I'm the one having culture shock. My kids, they've always been in this environment. Their skin is a lot tougher than mine is. And I think that's actually quite interesting to think about that kind of trade off, like, even when raising our children, but also in a work environment between self confidence and tough skin. Because, yeah, I mean, it's like maybe they're not going to get to be as self confident. And a lot of Americans in France worry about that with their children, that they're going to lose their self confidence, but they do develop that thick skin ness, which I think is very useful also in many different ways. Right. We can take it.

[Adam Grant]

In some ways, you're indicting American culture for toxic positivity, which we've talked with Susan David about in the past on this podcast. Feeling good about yourself feels good, but I worry, like you do, about the costs for resilience. I've talked before about all the things I learned as a springboard diver that have helped me in other walks of life. One of the lessons I learned from diving was that if someone takes the time to coach you, it means that they care enough to help you and they believe you're capable of growth. That is all the positive feedback I need. I don't need you to tell me that you think I have great potential. I don't need you to tell me all the things you think I did well. I just want to know what I can do better. And I guess what I'm partially puzzled by is why do people not take it as a sign of respect? That someone levels with you and tells you how you can improve.

[Erin Meyer]

I personally find myself in these situations where if I'm working with people from very direct cultures like the Netherlands or Denmark, and people give me really direct feedback. I had a situation a while ago where I was trying out a professor in a one hour slot. It was a week long class and a week long program. And one of the, one of the guys from Amsterdam came up to me at the end of that one hour, which I realized had not gone great. And he said to me, aaron, I think it's like that was completely unacceptable. He said, it's completely unacceptable. And then he told me all of the reasons that that person was immature and should not be in the program. And in my mind I was thinking to myself, he hates the whole program, right? Because why would he possibly speak so dramatically about his unhappiness about one hour if it hadn't ruined the program for him? But then at the end of the program, I mean he filled out his program questionnaire, he gave it like a five plus. And afterwards I like ran into him and I mentioned to him and he was like, oh, but it wasn't a problem with the program, it was just a problem with that section, right? What's important is that when we're working internationally, we misunderstand the cues that are coming at us because cues are different in different cultures. I do think it's quite complicated because I do agree with you. Like logically, wouldn't it be so much better if around the world we all were just clear with one another? But of course we're humans and the risk of burning the relationship or making enemies I think is something that we have to be careful about. It's a cold day here in Alaska, but there's one animal seemingly unaffected, bright eyed and determined enters the husky. Observe as they go up the mountain, guided by pure instinct. They are truly amazing masters of this wilderness. But even these amazing pets can't sign up for Lemonade Pet insurance. You can sign up [e-mail] amazing. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Adam Grant]

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[Erin Meyer]

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[Erin Meyer]

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[Erin Meyer]

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[Adam Grant]

Neighbor, the new standard in home access through the ADT plus app, easily grant and automate event based or scheduled access for neighbors, friends and helpers. Notify trusted individuals of events like alarms or packages and set access windows for planned guests or even the dog walker without interrupting your day. Visit ADT.com when every second counts. Count on ADT requires ADT complete pro monitoring plan and compatible devices. Copyright 2025 ADT LLC. All rights reserved. We met in Amsterdam a few months ago, and normally after I give a keynote, it's like pulling teeth. To find out how I could improve and to get the hosts to even share the comments, our Amsterdam host sent me an unsolicited email saying, here's your general score. You got an 8.79 out of 10. And I'm like, thank you for doing that. And then also shares that another speaker got higher ratings, a 9.24. And I was so excited. I was like, okay, here's a gap that I can clip. And so I asked, what can I do to improve? And like, no hesitation, I got a okay. You know, there are a few things that you know that seem to elevate people in Amsterdam into the nines, where we're much more critical than you Americans. Of course, you could ask people more, more challenging questions that will really stick with them and prompt them to reflect. It was such valuable feedback. How could giving me that hurt our relationship?

[Erin Meyer]

I think there's something else very interesting coming up in what you're talking about, which is what I call my like trusting scale, which is that of course, once we have emotional bonds, then we can be much more direct around the world. I look at two simple things like cognitive trust versus effective trust, right? So cognitive trust, trust from my brain. I see you are on time, you do good work, you're reliable, I trust you. And then effective trust. So I feel an emotional bond with you. I feel a connection, a human connection. I feel like I've seen who you are inside, beyond your professional Persona. And because I've seen who you are inside, I trust you. And of course, if I ask you why you trust your mother, it doesn't matter where you come from, you'll talk to me about effective trust. But if I ask you why you trust a business partner, we'll see a lot more difference from one part of the world to another. That's actually the most important dimension to focus on because Once we get the trust right, then other issues like, are we giving feedback in a way that is going to be the most productive become less important. Right? Like, you know what? If you're too direct from with me, but we have a good emotional bond, then I'll just forgive you. But if we don't have an emotional bond and you're direct with me like that, that may be the last time that I want to work with you.

[Adam Grant]

That makes a lot of sense. And I think it's surprisingly easy to hear a hard truth from someone who, you know, cares about you and respects you and wants you to succeed. And I think whenever somebody reacts poorly to feedback, it's a sign to me that I haven't done enough to build the relationship and earn their trust yet. However, my cultural conditioning is not at all in the direction of directness. Right? Like, you and I are both Midwesterners. We were raised to be polite. And I'm like, okay, so where did this come from? It's not a cultural norm that I'm following. It's a cultural norm that I'm rejecting. Why am I rejecting it? I think it comes from two places. One is personality as an anxious person. I've read a growing body of evidence from neuroscientists showing that people like me who are prone to worrying a lot, we actually prefer negative feedback to uncertainty. I want to know, if I know you think I stuck, then I can work on it. But if I'm not sure what's in your head, then I have a lot to ruminate about. And then the second thing is, from a values perspective, beyond the personality traits I didn't choose, I care about growth personally, and I care about honesty interpersonally. And I benefit more, and I think you benefit more from a relationship in which we can be candid with each other. Why do so many people seem to follow the cultural norms that they were, you know, conditioned with, as opposed to choosing what makes sense for their values and their traits?

[Erin Meyer]

What I study is group identity, right? So I study the personality of nations or sometimes the personality of organizations. But just because a nation has a personality or an organization has a personality doesn't mean that everybody in that nation has the same individual personality. What it means is that we judge a behavior within a scale as being appropriate or inappropriate. It's those moments where things are appropriate in one culture but inappropriate in another that we need to be so aware of this. And then, of course, there are also outliers. I mean, there are people who choose to live in other countries. Because the culture of that country is more like their individual personality than it is like the country they come from.

[Adam Grant]

When you think about culture and personality, values, conflicts, I think that that doesn't only happen at the national culture level, obviously, it can happen at the local culture level. And you and I have both worked with a lot of leaders who are trying to build cultures that override people, national culture instincts, or, you know, even their. Their personality tendencies. So you've spent a lot of time studying Netflix. You wrote a book with Reed Hastings. This candor dimension is really core there, and I think there have been a lot of benefits and a number of challenges. Tell me what you learned there about creating a culture of candor in an environment where people aren't always prepared for that.

[Erin Meyer]

I started working with Netflix in 2015, when they were mostly a local American company at that time, and they were getting ready for huge international expansion. And at that time, I was coming to do some work with them on national cultural differences. We were going to do some culture mapping as they were moving into other countries. So they sent me their Netflix culture deck, which was a description of this highly unusual organizational culture that they have at that company. Part of this culture was what they call radical candor. Reed said to me as they were getting ready for this international expansion. You know, Erin, do you think that our. Our organizational culture will work in the countries that we are moving to? And their international headquarters were going to be Amsterdam, Singapore, Tokyo and Sao Paulo. And honestly, I was very concerned because I knew that three out of those four cultures are quite a bit less direct than even the standard American culture, let alone the culture at Netflix. So I told them that I thought it was very risky. This radical candor was worried that it would create an aggressive work environment. But in any case, it was fundamental to their organizational culture. So they did try to implement that same environment, that same type of organizational culture in places like Tokyo and Sao Paulo. And I remember going out there to do interviews after the first year, and things were not going well. The relationships were not good between employees, people. People didn't have strong bonds. The teamwork was poor. And at least in the Tokyo office, people didn't want to work there because it was seen as an aggressive work environment. So clearly the radical candor had poured over into the inappropriate for those environments. But then they kind of did a shift which I think worked a lot better. And I learned quite a bit from, which was instead of taking the way they were giving feedback in California and teaching the Japanese and the Brazilians and the Singaporeans to give feedback that way, which is what they had been doing. They took a new approach and that approach was get together managers in Tokyo and get together managers in Sao Paulo. And just think about how can you be radically frank in your culture in a way that's not going to break the relationships and going to make people want to work together together, Right? That's going to create a positive working work environment.

[Adam Grant]

Such a great question.

[Erin Meyer]

And it was so interesting because those different countries, they chose completely different techniques for how to give the feedback. So like I remember in Brazil, we're very relationship oriented country, they would do these feedback sessions over lunches and they would always start by like creating a, like really good space where everyone was like together with their work friends. And then it was really given one on kind of in these quiet areas. And then people would usually like give each other a hug afterwards. I attended one of them. So they managed to get that feedback out there in a way that was preserving and even strengthening the relationship. In Tokyo, they chose to do something that really surprised me, which was they wanted to do these 360 live feedback dinners more frequently. So these are one of the techniques that was coming out of California where you would get together in the evening and you would give feedback over a meal in front of the group, right? So like I would say, you know, okay, Adam, I'd like to tell you that this is what you're doing poorly. And then, you know, the next person would move on to tell you what they think you're doing poorly. They understood how to give the feedback. They followed a format and they knew why they were doing it, to help each person out. So that worked much better for them than giving feedback spontaneously or one on one, one. So in any case, I think what we can take away from that is that certainly we can take an organizational culture that may be specifically successful in one country and not natural for another culture it's moving into. And we can take that from one country and we can apply it to another, but we have to think about what's the best way to grow the behaviors locally, even if the principle is the same or else the world.

[Adam Grant]

It reminds me of when I was starting to write books, getting my students comfortable, being frank, when we had this power distance. And I'll never forget I sent an early draft of a chapter of a book to a new group of undergraduates and we went around the room and I said, everyone, give your zero to ten rating. And I heard six and a half, eight, seven, seven and a half. And I was disappointed because I knew it wasn't anywhere near the level of sevens and eights. And then finally one student who was, I think by her own description, highly disagreeable said three and a half. And I said, thank you for that. Why? And she said, my comment says not a page turner. And that moment changed the norms. I saw how forthcoming she was and how much I valued it, and all of a sudden people were far less afraid and they also saw the benefit. And I think for me it was a good lesson that, like, as the leader in the room, I have to signal that it's both safe and worthwhile that you know, not only am I going to not punish you, but this isn't an exercise in futility. This is actually a behavior that gets rewarded.

[Erin Meyer]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Adam Grant]

Let me go to Lightning round. What is the worst advice that people give about cross cultural interaction?

[Erin Meyer]

Oh, how about don't make jokes? I get that one all the time. It is true that sometimes people don't pick up jokes or that humor does not translate from one country to another. But I do believe that as humans the most important thing we can do is laugh together and that when we laugh it builds bonds. So do not get rid of humor just because it doesn't always work.

[Adam Grant]

I think that's such good advice. I know when I was in Europe this fall, all like probably the hardest laugh that I got was when I made a joke that fell flat and said, yeah, I guess that one did not work across the Atlantic.

[Erin Meyer]

That made them laugh. Yes. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And they're like, definitely not. Thank you for recognizing that. Okay, what is your most important tip for improving cross cultural interaction?

[Erin Meyer]

Yeah, I think the most important one is that we get a conversation started. So what I try to do with my culture map methodology is give people a language so that they can start saying, oh, hey, you know, this is how we give feedback in my culture. How do you give feedback in your culture? Or this is how we build trust in my culture. What would you do in your culture? What I found is that the large majority of companies that I start working with haven't talked about this topic at all because they're worried that if they bring up the topic of national cultural differences, that that will lead to stereotyping and putting individuals in boxes. So I believe that we need to be sophisticated to recognize that, yes, we are all human. So on one level, we are all the same. And yes, that we are all unique, that every individual is different, even if we come from the same place, yet we all come from somewhere. And where we come from has an impact on how we see the world, how we communicate, what we see as being effective and ineffective. And if we can keep these three things in mind, then we can open a dialogue with curiosity and humility. And that's what leads to international learning.

[Adam Grant]

What's a common misconception about American culture in Europe?

[Erin Meyer]

If you ask someone what Americans are like, one of the things they are likely to say is that Americans are superficial, hypocritical and fake. And this is linked largely to the fact that we are so friendly with strangers. I have an example from this Russian guy who talked about taking an airplane to the US and during that seven hour flight, you know, the American was really friendly with him and told him all about himself and showed him pictures of his children and talked about his job interview the next day. And Igor started doing something really unnatural for him. He started sharing, like the really personal things that he kept for his closest friends and family because he thought, wow, we're going to be friends for a long time given how open this guy has been with me. So then they got to the US and of course the Russian guy got ready to write down his new American friend's telephone number, thinking he would call in the next day. And the American guy stood up and he, he said, hey, great to meet you, have a great trip. So I would like to say that that is a misunderstanding, because as I often explain to people in Europe, it's not that we've offered you friendship and then turned our back on you. It's that in our culture, that's not an offer of friendship. Right.

[Adam Grant]

To quote Fight Club, that is a single serving friend.

[Erin Meyer]

That's right.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, last question. What is the question you have for me?

[Erin Meyer]

Is there anything that you have noticed about how audiences respond differently to your material based on what country you are in?

[Adam Grant]

I think for me, the more surprising thing is how quickly I get stereotyped as an American. And what I've learned is if I can immediately call out some of the unusual habits or norms that Americans are stereotyped as subscribing to, I don't get put in that box the same. Same way. Here's an example. Years ago, I was working on a project at a multinational tech company. Some colleagues and I were running experiments to help people craft their jobs and identify their strengths. And we did it first in California and then in New York, and then we went to Dublin and London. And I will never forget, in London, I'm starting to explain the value of identifying strengths. And an engineer said, said, you Americans, you're so positive we don't wander around bragging about our strengths here in London. And I was tempted to argue with him and talk about how everyone has things that they're good at. And I was like, you know what? Let me try to demonstrate some cultural self awareness here. And I said to him, well, can you tell me what your greatest weaknesses are? And he started listing them. And I said, can you rank order them? And he did. And I said, okay, would you do me a favor and just call your least weak weakness a strength? And he started laughing. And, you know, it kind of broke the ice and got us on the same page. And I think, like, that, I guess that's been my lesson is like, there, there's always a sense that I might be, like, I might be too something as an American. And the quicker I can make it clear that either I'm not that thing, or at least I'm aware of that perception. The. The faster we bond.

[Erin Meyer]

It was a great example, Adam, and mostly because we got to hear your British accent.

[Adam Grant]

You know, that's funny because one of our other guests told me to never attempt a British accent again. And I told her the majority of the feedback people seemed to get a kick out of it.

[Erin Meyer]

I liked it.

[Adam Grant]

Well, thank you. I'll keep practicing. Aaron, I've learned so much from your work on cross cultural differences, and I feel like we've barely scratched the surface of all the interesting ones we could discuss. But I think this is a great and I know our listeners are going to find it as enjoyable and also as illuminating as I did. Thank you.

[Erin Meyer]

Thank you, Adam.

[Adam Grant]

My biggest lesson from Aaron is that when we're interacting across cultures, we should communicate about how to communicate effectively. Let's put our cultural values on the table and then figure out if we care about both honesty and respect, what the most compelling ways are to combine those principles. Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley, Ma and Asia Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale sue and Alison Leighton Brown. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winick, Samaya Adams, Roxanne hi, Lash Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers.

[Erin Meyer]

When I interviewed the Dutch, they would say, oh my gosh, those Americans at Netflix. They think they are direct, but they don't even know what directness is. Okay, all right, but you're reminding me.

[Adam Grant]

Of the psychologist Batya Vaskita's article why Americans Are Fake and the Dutch. Catch our route. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that grinds just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. Post your job for [e-mail] tedpod that's LinkedIn.com tedpod to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Erin Meyer]

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