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- [00:00]
Adam Grant
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results terms and conditions apply. Trust isn't just earned, it's demanded. Whether you're a startup founder navigating your first audit or a seasoned security professional scaling your GRC program, proving your commitment to security has never been more critical or more complex. That's where Vanta comes in. Businesses use Vanta to establish trust by automating compliance needs across over 35 frameworks like SoC2, an ISO 270017, centralized security workflows, complete questionnaires up to five times faster, and proactively manage vendor risk. Vanta not only saves you time, it can also save you money. A new IDC whitepaper found that Vanta customers achieve $535,000 per year in benefits, and the platform pays for itself in just three months. Join over 9,000 global companies like Atlassian, Quora and Factory who use Vanta to manage risk and prove security in real time. For a limited time, get $1,000 off vanta@vanta.com tedaudio that's V A N T A dot com tedaudio for $1,000 off this episode is sponsored by Greenhouse, the leading hiring platform helping companies get measurably better at hiring. Organizations spend so much time on administrative hiring tasks instead of focusing on talent. That's why I'm excited to tell you about Greenhouse AI. Greenhouse AI automates the tedious parts of the hiring process, allowing recruiters to focus on what they do best finding exceptional talent with their platform, you can find and engage high quality talent with precision. Streamline interviews using AI tools that handle the busy work and make faster, more confident decisions fueled by the power of AI. In today's competitive landscape, having the right hiring technology isn't just nice to have, it's essential for building extraordinary teams. And that's precisely what Greenhouse delivers. Book your demo today to learn more about Greenhouse AI on greenhouse.com when my wife, Allison, and I became parents, one of the first gifts we got was the classic book the Giving Tree. We remembered it having a meaningful message about generosity, but when we reread it, we found it Disturbing. And we weren't alone. It was desperately sad. Meet Topher Payne. I am a playwright and teacher in Atlanta. I think of you as like, the. The ultimate repairman for broken children's books. I'll absolutely take that. One of Topher's projects is writing new endings for classic children's books. In 2020, he picked up the Giving Tree for the first time since childhood. To refresh your memory, here's the gist. Once there was a tree, and the tree loved the boy. And every day the little boy would come and play in the tree's branches, and they had a marvelous friendship. But as the boy grows up, he starts asking for things. And the tree always says yes. First it's apples. Eventually it's wood to build a house. And the tree gives her branches, which do grow back, but they grow back so much slower. But she gives them up because she loves the boy. And then he wants to build a boat, and so on and so on until the tree is nothing but a sad little stump and there is nothing left of her. And the boy comes back as an old man, and she has nothing left to give, and he sits on her. The end. So, for me, the most fucked up part of the story is the ending where the tree is reduced to a literal stump. And it says, and the tree was happy. Yeah. Like, what the hell are you talking about? The tree isn't happy. The tree hardly exists anymore. No. You know, the most common hot take that I hear on the story is that it is an allegory for maternal love. You just give everything that you have to your child, and then you see them thriving, and they are so happy. And the two things that I want to say to that are, one, nuh. That's not how motherhood should work. And two, the boy is not happy. There is nothing in the story that indicates that this behavior results in the boy being happy. The boy always comes back seeking more and doesn't understand why he doesn't feel fulfilled. That's exactly right. I mean, the boy is a huge taker. The worst. And it's. It's. It's. I don't even know. Like, people saying this is an allegory from maternal love. Like, no, it's an allegory for an abusive relationship. Yes, this notion of give till it hurts. No, sometimes pain is a sensor telling you to stop something. And so don't give till it hurts and certainly don't give past hurting. And the tree does. Well said. The tree has confused giving with self sacrifice. And it almost seems like The Tree is the most extreme people pleaser you could possibly imagine. Like I'm going to neglect whatever my own needs are in order to say yes to whatever this boy asks for. And then you will believe how much I love you. The Giving Tree illustrates a familiar problem in life and at work. The temptation to say yes to everyone and everything we think. It makes us likable and promotable. But if you want to build balanced relationships and achieve your goals, you need to master the art of saying no. I'm Adam Grant and this is Work Life, my podcast with Ted. I'm an organizational psychologist. I study how to make work not suck. In this show, we explore how to unlock the potential in people and workplaces today, why it's so hard to say no, and how we can get better at setting boundaries. This episode is sponsored by upwork. Scaling your business takes more than hard work. It takes the right expertise at the right time. That's where Upwork comes in. With over two decades of experience, upwork was built with a simple and ambitious goal to pioneer a better way of working. Whether you need help with it, web development, design or marketing, upwork connects you with skilled freelancers across the globe, people who get you and your business. There's no cost to join, just post a job, browse freelancer profiles, or book a consultation. To get started, visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. And connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upwork.com upwork.com this episode is sponsored by Lumen. Think about your metabolism as your body's engine. It's how your body turns the food you eat into fuel that keeps you going. When your metabolism works well, you feel it in your energy, sleep, and even how you recover from a workout. And Lumen is the world's first metabolic coach that gives you real time insights into your body's metabolism. You just breathe into the device first thing in the morning and it helps you understand. If you're mainly burning fats or carbs, then the app gives you a personalized nutrition plan for the day based on what your body actually needs. The warmer months are coming. Spring back into your health and fitness. Go to lumen.com worklife to get 15% off your lumen. That's L U M e n me worklife for 15% off your purchase. Thank you Lumen for sponsoring this episode. This episode is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Do you say data or data? Either way, for a long time I assumed paying a lot for my monthly data plan was just the cost of staying connected. But then I found out about Mint Mobile and realized it doesn't have to be that way. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service starting at just $15 a month. All their plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. And you can use your own phone with any plan and keep your number in contacts. Why pay more for the same service? No matter how you say it, don't overpay for it. Shop data plans@mintmobile.com worklife that's mintmobile.com worklife upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. For a long time I was a people pleaser. I bent over backward to say yes to as many people and as many requests as I could. I thought that was core to being a kind giving person. But I was overextending myself. I knew it was bad when I started wondering if I needed to schedule calls with my friends cause I was too busy helping randos. Then I read research suggesting that the root of chronic people pleasing is not concern for others, it's concern for their approval. In other words, it's not about them, it's about you. I wasn't going overboard for others because I cared too much about them. I was doing it because I cared too much about their opinions of me. I said yes because I wanted them to like me and accept me. It probably started as a solution to being bullied in elementary school, but it had created a new problem. I'd come to rely on others for self esteem. I craved their validation. So I was putting them above myself. The evidence is clear. Not only is that a path to emotional exhaustion, it doesn't actually build strong connections, it creates one sided relationships where we feel used instead of supported and at work it can undermine rather than advance our progress. I needed to learn to say no. But just saying no is not as easy as it sounds.
- [10:55]
Vanessa Bonds
No is a complete sentence is my least favorite expression in all of like the self help literature. It drives me insane.
- [11:04]
Adam Grant
Vanessa Bonds is a professor of organizational behavior at Cornell and the author of youf have More Influence Than youn Think. She's an expert on the psychology of saying no.
- [11:14]
Vanessa Bonds
And the thing that's funniest to me is like yes is a complete sentence. So like if you imagine someone asking you for something and you just say sure or yes, I'd be happy to.
- [11:25]
Adam Grant
Right?
- [11:25]
Vanessa Bonds
Like, you don't need any justification. You don't need to explain why you said yes. But I don't know anyone who feels comfortable just saying no without any explanation or kind of, you know, way of placating the other person.
- [11:40]
Adam Grant
Vanessa knows this from experience. She has a long history of people pleasing.
- [11:45]
Vanessa Bonds
Definitely, I'm such a people pleaser. It's.
- [11:48]
Adam Grant
Yeah, are you just saying that to please me right now?
- [11:51]
Vanessa Bonds
I guess that's the best test of a people pleaser. Are you a people pleaser? And the people pleasers just say yes.
- [11:58]
Adam Grant
In one of her early studies, Vanessa investigated whether people say yes to requests more often than we realized. She asked people in New York City to guess the odds that strangers would agree to onerous requests, like walking them to a destination they couldn't find or even borrowing their cell phone. Then she sent them out to actually make those requests. Even New Yorkers said yes a lot more than expected. Nearly half agreed to walk people to their destinations and nearly half handed over their cell phones.
- [12:28]
Vanessa Bonds
Across all these different requests, it was typically about twice as likely for people to agree to these requests as our participants expected.
- [12:37]
Adam Grant
So why do we say yes so often, even to questionable requests from total strangers?
- [12:43]
Vanessa Bonds
One of the best ways I think about a request is it's essentially someone sort of reaching their hand out to another person. So it's like, I'm extending my hand and asking for your help, or it's, I'm extending my hand and asking you for a date. Or it's, I'm extending my hand and asking you to, like, join me in this unethical pursuit. But whatever it is, it's like I'm extending my hand and asking you to cooperate with me. And if you don't take my hand, if you say no, if you reject me, you are not being cooperative. And everything in our being, you know, from how we've evolved to how we've been socialized, tells us that we're supposed to cooperate with other people. And so when we say no, we're potentially risking damaging our reputation and looking like uncooperative people. We're potentially damaging our relationship with that person. And then there's also this risk of sort of tangible repercussions, right? It's possible that this person won't reciprocate down the line. It's even possible that they'll get aggressive with us because they're upset. So there's just so many risks, many of them social, but some of them even instrumental in involved in saying no.
- [13:56]
Adam Grant
Especially at work, where pay and promotions often seem to be riding on saying yes. Surprisingly, we often feel extra pressure with more distant colleagues. It's called the acquaintance trap. With people close to you, your relationship is secure, so you don't need to worry as much about declining. With strangers, there's no relationship, so there's not as much pressure to uphold a reputation. But with acquaintances, relationships are just uncertain enough that you feel like you can't say no because you want them to like you. And for certain groups, these pressures are magnified.
- [14:30]
Vanessa Bonds
Women are socialized to be communal and cooperative. And so when we say no, when we essentially say, no, I'm not gonna cooperate, right? First of all, we aren't living up to the expectations that we've been socialized to have that we're supposed to be communal and cooperative. And so we feel bad about ourselves. We also are often punished reputationally because we're not conforming to this stereotype of women being communal and cooperative. And so people kind of see us as less warm. They may, you know, have sort of a negative impression of us if we say no because it doesn't fit what they're expecting us to say.
- [15:13]
Sherry Liu
I think I was known as, like, the nice girl in class, which as an adult, I look back on, and I'm like, what does that really mean? What does being nice mean? Really mean.
- [15:23]
Adam Grant
Sherry Liu is a content creator and the founder of the Eldest Daughter Club, an online community for eldest daughters. She's also a fellow recovering people pleaser. This impulse started as a kid when she really wanted to be liked.
- [15:36]
Sherry Liu
And so I think part of being liked, though, if you just want everyone to like you, you can't really take too much risks. Like, one thing you can't. You can't really say no. If someone asks you for something, what.
- [15:47]
Adam Grant
Kinds of things would you say yes to?
- [15:49]
Sherry Liu
People would ask me for help on homework. People would ask me for help on school projects. And I was happy to say yes and help on those things, but it was not really coming out of a place. I feel like where I was like, oh, I genuinely feel like I want to help. It was that, like, I want to make others happy, but I'm also so scared to say no because what if you're unhappy with me?
- [16:14]
Adam Grant
These experiences led Sheri to create her community of eldest daughters. They live in the center of a Venn diagram of people pleasing pressure. They're female, and they often take on parenting responsibilities at a young age.
- [16:27]
Sherry Liu
My little sister is seven years younger. And when your little sister or little Sibling has a significant age gap. You don't grow up as peers. Your little siblings like looking up to you. And so the eldest daughter part, I think, of people pleasing comes in when you feel like your actions are just more than your own. And it has this trickle down effect to your little sibling.
- [16:47]
Adam Grant
Sheri's cultural background also plays into this.
- [16:50]
Sherry Liu
So I'm the eldest daughter of an immigrant family, meaning I was born here, but my parents immigrated from China. And so they brought a different culture in raising. And I think like just in generally Asian cultures, it's more collectivist than the western culture. You're really cognizant of authority and you want to make sure, like authority being like your parents or your bosses, and that goes hand in hand with respect. And you want to make sure everyone around you is comfortable and you're always anticipating other people's needs.
- [17:21]
Adam Grant
This proved to be a challenge at the beginning of her career.
- [17:25]
Sherry Liu
People think me, because I am not only an Asian woman, but also like short in stature, that I'm just gonna say yes to everything. And they expect me to in a way that I think they don't expect my other colleagues. And so when I started my first job, I knew that for me to be successful in corporate America, I can't be saying yes to everything because I need to make sure I get promot and I can't be promoted if I'm doing secretarial work 100% of the time or the work that nobody wants to do and gives it to me and the work that has no impact. And so in the workplace, I was like, okay, like I myself am trying, like my best, not people please and stand up for myself. But at the same time, I had to experience this additional challenge of people just thinking like, oh, like this is someone who's going to just say yes to everything we ask.
- [18:17]
Adam Grant
Research shows that unfortunately, helping at work is less optional for women than men. Women are asked to do the lion's share of the office housework, taking notes in meetings, planning events. They face more pressure to say yes, but get less credit. It's taken for granted. She's warm and caring. She wants to help. When a man helps, it's rewarded. I never would have expected him to care about another person. What a great guy. If he declines, he gets a pass. But a woman faces a penalty. Saying no violates the unfair expectation for women to be other oriented. And these dynamics are often heightened for women of color. So even though Sheri knew this might be a risk going into her job, she still wound up Saying yes too often. That is, until she got a new manager.
- [19:07]
Sherry Liu
And I was telling her, I was like, I've worked so hard this year. I'm been working towards a promotion. Like, where am I? Like. And she looked me straight in the face, and she was like, all of your projects, you're working a lot, but you're all helping other people. Like, you need something that you own. And I was like, but I don't have time to do any of these things because everybody needs my support, and, like, I want to help the team. And she's like, well, I'm just going to be honest with you. For you to, like, gain leverage in the workplace and to, like, eventually be a senior leader, you need to really carve out things of impact that you yourself lead. And that means saying no to other extraneous requests. It actually doesn't help you to be the most easygoing person in the office and say yes to everything. Everyone's gonna like you, but that won't get you anywhere. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I need to. I need to start saying no to things.
- [20:08]
Adam Grant
Sherry enlisted her manager's help after that conversation.
- [20:11]
Sherry Liu
In the future, I would go to my managers and I would very clearly articulate what I wanted. I was like, okay, it's my priority to do these things. But just so you know, for me to do these things, I'm going to need the time to do them. And that is going to mean that I might have to say no to requests that maybe my co workers ask me, requests that maybe sister teams are gonna ask me, requests maybe, like, upper management might ask me. And I'm going to have to count on you as my manager to help me say no and to help me deflect things that aren't actually going to be important on my team.
- [20:50]
Adam Grant
That conversation made a difference.
- [20:52]
Sherry Liu
It made it so much easier for me to say no, because I also knew that my manager was on my side and that they would also stick up for me. And that saying wouldn't mean people thinking I was a bad coworker, because it would be clear that I'm saying no because I want to say yes. On the things that are actually unfortunate.
- [21:13]
Adam Grant
It'S easy to default to saying yes. But as Sheri learned, there are big payoffs to protecting your own time and boundaries. How do you say no without jeopardizing your reputation and relationships? More on that after the break. Foreign now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're Locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on MyPlan and my home. That's future you peace of mind. And everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realize you're missing a part. It's okay because you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay. They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes. Whatever you need. And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing. All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay things people love. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. Back in 2013, the New York Times magazine did a cover story about my research on why it's better to be a giver than a taker. It was called Is Giving the secret to Getting ahead? And it went into detail about my efforts to help as many people as I could. I'd become a caricature of a giver. And after the article came out, people started seeing me as the generosity guy. It was like a flashing neon sign for takers. This guy will say yes to anything. I got flooded with thousands of emails from acquaintances and complete strangers wanting things. Hey Adam, will you review my book? Hey, Adam.
- [23:56]
Vanessa Bonds
Hey Adam, can you give me some advice? Would love your thoughts on my draft.
- [24:00]
Adam Grant
Do you have some time to chat? It was a wake up call. I realized that there's a big difference between pleasing people and helping them.
- [24:09]
Vanessa Bonds
Yeah, I have. I have a lot to say about that. So essentially, you know, there's a distinction between giving and giving. In.
- [24:17]
Adam Grant
In her research, Vanessa Bonds has found that saying no doesn't have to burn bridges.
- [24:22]
Vanessa Bonds
We do tend to overestimate how negatively we'll be seen if we say no. I think part of that is because we're so focused on this one moment, right? This is super salient, right? We pay attention to the thing that's right in front of our face, a super tangible thing, and we're like, oh, this is the only way people are going to know me in this moment. But in fact, people have like a much longer term impression of us, right? They've seen all the times we have helped. And you know, this is just one out of many instances.
- [24:52]
Adam Grant
Once you accept that it's acceptable to say no, you need some boundaries. I certainly did. My favorite way to set them is to create personal policies. Instead of treating every request as a separate dilemma, I made a list of guidelines for what kinds of requests I wouldn't fulfill. I don't work for companies for free. I don't give career advice to strangers. I don't write forewords to books. It's one thing to set boundaries, it's another to communicate them. For more than a decade, I've been test driving strategies for saying no. And I've found three that consistently work. They tend to avoid negative reactions and sometimes even elicit positive ones like, wow, I respect your boundaries and huh, I need to do more of that myself. You could just say no, but if you're worried that the other person might be upset, it can be helpful to give reasons. Research suggests that when you provide a credible explanation, people are more understanding, even if it's not the response they wanted. That goes to my first strategy for saying no. Explain your personal policies. When you walk through your philosophy on boundaries, you make it clear to people that you're not rejecting them. It's not about them at all.
- [26:05]
Vanessa Bonds
Totally. It's like those email signatures that say like, I don't check email during these hours. It's like not only protecting your time, it's teaching people a norm. Like, maybe we all shouldn't check email at those hours.
- [26:16]
Adam Grant
An easy one is like, will you post about my book on social media? No. That would quickly turn my feed into book launch spam. I can't do it for everyone. I won't do it for anyone.
- [26:27]
Vanessa Bonds
Yeah, you know what's funny about that too? You know, speaking as someone who asked you for a book endorsement, my assumption going in is like, this person's going to say no. And so, you know, you knowing that as the person being asked that that person doesn't necessarily expect a yes. Right? If they do, that's kind of entitled. And I feel like That's a different category of person. So, like, most people are not expecting a yes. So a polite, warm, thoughtful no is, like, a win for a lot of people, right?
- [27:01]
Adam Grant
Sure enough, there's evidence that if you're the one being asked, you tend to focus on the outcome for the help seeker, but they judge the interaction more by how they're treated in the process.
- [27:11]
Vanessa Bonds
Wow. Adam Grant sent me a really nice email back. You know, he couldn't do it, and that's fine. I mean, he's really busy, you know, so I think understanding that, like, people don't necessarily expect a yes, and they're, like, pleasantly surprised when you do say yes. I think that's just an important thing to know.
- [27:28]
Adam Grant
This speaks to the second strategy, conveying care. You can say no in a way that still shows concern for others.
- [27:35]
Vanessa Bonds
So when I go to the grocery store, they always ask for donations, and I always say, oh, I've already given this year. And that makes me feel like, okay, I. I've said I'm a generous person. You know, I've. I've declined nicely, but it's a clear no.
- [27:53]
Adam Grant
Research reveals that this is especially effective for women to avoid backlash.
- [27:57]
Vanessa Bonds
So one thing a lot of women I know do is they'll have a list of all the things that they have agreed to. And so they'll say, you know, I would love to do this, but I'm doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. You know, all these other things. And that shows, like, look at how giving and communal and cooperative I've been. I'm a major contributor to this organization, but I just can't say yes to this. I have too much on my plate.
- [28:23]
Adam Grant
I often just say, sorry, my plate is beyond full. Then I offer something that costs me nothing, but I hope is beneficial to them. For the most common requests, I've written up responses to frequently asked questions, strangers seeking career advice. Get a list of my favorite books, articles, and podcasts. Authors asking for forwards. Get a brain dump of the lessons I've learned about how to promote a book. And companies seeking speakers get recommendations for authors who are launching new books. That speaks to the final the referral.
- [28:56]
Vanessa Bonds
So when somebody asks for your help, you can give it yourself, or you can help that person sometimes just as well as if you did it yourself by referring them to another person. Right. You could say, you know, I could help you, but actually, my colleague knows even more about that, and I'd be happy to refer you to them, but research has shown that we really don't like to do that.
- [29:22]
Adam Grant
It's called referral aversion.
- [29:24]
Vanessa Bonds
We worry, first of all, that it's going to make us look incompetent. Right. So that kind of gets at this idea of, like, my reputational concerns. And people also worry that it's going to kind of damage the relationship with the other person. I think there's a sense of, like, I am worthy as long as people need me.
- [29:45]
Adam Grant
We're also afraid that by passing the baton, we'll be letting others down. And it turns out those fears are generally misplaced.
- [29:52]
Vanessa Bonds
We actually overestimate how much people are disappointed by getting a referral. Right. And so that that concern is often bigger in our own heads than it is for the other person. And so if it was purely other oriented. Right. It might be best for the other person for you to refer them elsewhere. And yet we hold on to that request and we feel like we need to take it on ourselves.
- [30:19]
Adam Grant
The day that I, I became not only comfortable, but also enthusiastic about saying, you know what? I actually know someone who's more qualified to help on this and also is going to take more time for you. Like the day I was excited to do that is the day I felt like I was starting to get over this, this chronic need to be liked. And I think that it sort of crystallized for me as a difference between being needed and being valued, that if I felt like other people needed me, I felt like they were dependent on me and it was creating a sense of obligation that I had to help them. And I would worry about them. I would feel guilty if I let them down. And what I want is to be valued.
- [30:59]
Vanessa Bonds
Absolutely. There is so much sort of advice and information out there for how to get better at saying no. And we tend to put so much pressure on the person who has to say no to be the one to manage that. Right. To come up with. You know, we have these strategies like you and I have been talking about, but there's a responsibility on the people asking to ask in ways that aren't coercive.
- [31:23]
Adam Grant
The data point to several ways to do that to avoid imposing. You can ask, would you or someone you know be willing to. Vanessa finds that it also helps to give people the words to say no. When I make requests, I often say, no pressure, no obligation, no. No repercussions. And when I invited Vanessa to this podcast, I couldn't resist writing. If you'd like to refuse, please say the words. Hell no.
- [31:51]
Vanessa Bonds
We found that when you give people the words to say no, that they don't necessarily Say no more. Although maybe a little bit. But the big thing is they feel more like they could have said no. Right. It feels more voluntary when they do agree.
- [32:06]
Adam Grant
Another way to show respect is giving people time to process.
- [32:10]
Vanessa Bonds
So making a request and saying, you know, let me know tomorrow, or, let me know when you've had some time to think about it. And asking over email is much less coercive than asking in person.
- [32:20]
Adam Grant
How much less? In one study, Vanessa found that people were 34 times more likely to say yes face to face than by email.
- [32:28]
Vanessa Bonds
And so I often give the advice of, if someone asks you something in person face to face, ask them if you could take some time and respond over email. Say, I'll think about that a little bit. I'll send you an email with my answer tomorrow, or whatever it is. So that is kind of getting you out of that. That pressure zone, giving you some time to think, actually make a mindful decision about what you want to do and then respond to them in a way that you feel good about. Right. I mean, that's another thing to think about. Like, each time we say yes to something, we're kind of saying, this is okay, right? We're saying, like, it is acceptable for us to ask these things. Sometimes we don't want people to feel like, oh, that was wrong to ask. But sometimes it's like, no, I'm actually gonna teach you that this isn't something you should be asking for.
- [33:11]
Adam Grant
I'm so glad you brought that up. I was just talking with our students about this, and we had an example where a student said, like, she's one of the only people she knows on campus with a car. So whenever anybody she knows needs something that requires transportation, like, they basically impose on her for, like, car privileges. And she said it was starting to damage some of her friendships and they were using her, but she didn't. She didn't want to hurt the relationship. And I was like, look at this from the other side, which is every time you say yes, you are licensing and reinforcing that behavior. And you're failing to educate people and teach them that you have boundaries. And so setting a boundary is actually not only a chance for, you know, for you to protect your time and your relationships. It's also a chance for those people to learn, like, what's a reasonable ask and what's inappropriate. I had a colleague who just kept asking me shamelessly for things that were unreasonable in the first place, like, will you read and comment line by line on seven of my papers? And, you know, I did my, like, my usual polite no's, and he just would not go away. And finally, it must have been the seventh or eighth request. I wrote back and I said, I'm working on getting better at saying no. Thank you for the practice.
- [34:27]
Vanessa Bonds
I love that. That's one of the recommendations I give too. When people want a reason to say no, that's like, it's not because I'm a bad person. It's not because I'm not helpful. It's just, I'm working on this. It says, like, I am. My default is to say yes to this, but, like, I'm doing it too much.
- [34:45]
Adam Grant
Don't be afraid to have some fun with it. E.B. white, the author of Charlotte's Web, once turned down an invitation by writing, I must decline for secret reasons. An amusing or thoughtful no may well be appreciated more than a thoughtless yes. As Sherry Liu found out, she got in the habit of explaining her boundaries and conveying care.
- [35:09]
Sherry Liu
Like, immediately, I would say, hey, I. You know, I'm at bandwidth right now. But I wouldn't just say no straight up. I would offer what I can help. If I were you, this is how I would approach it. And I would give them maybe a framework to go about it.
- [35:25]
Adam Grant
She made referrals.
- [35:27]
Sherry Liu
I would say, I can't help you at this time. However, if you need it urgently, so and so might be able to give you the answer.
- [35:38]
Adam Grant
She learned that saying no wasn't as scary or risky as she'd expected.
- [35:43]
Sherry Liu
What surprised me when I started saying no in just all aspects of life is that people are actually really understanding. Like most people when they ask you something is not like life or death situation or it's not black or white. It's not like they ask you something. If you don't do it, they'll stop being your friend. And I think when you start saying no and you realize sometimes people are just like, okay, no worries, I'll do it myself. Or like, no worries, I'll ask somebody else. You're like this thing that I, in my head thought was just so important to them, actually was not that important to them that I helped them with it at this specific moment. And when someone says no to me for a good reason, I'm like, okay, whatever. Like, like, I totally understand. And I'm like, okay, wait, like, if I react like this, then like, why do I feel like people are gonna dislike me if I do the same exact thing?
- [36:36]
Adam Grant
And it's so interesting to hear you say this as a. As a long recovering slash Mostly recovered. People pleaser. One of the things that. That I've been surprised by is sometimes, like, a clear, fast, no leads people to respect me more.
- [36:52]
Sherry Liu
You know, let me. This is, like, an odd example, but, you know how, like, are you a cat person?
- [36:57]
Adam Grant
Adam, we have two cats. How'd you know?
- [37:00]
Sherry Liu
I don't know how to guess. How to guess. But I think cats get more respect sometimes because they draw strong boundaries, you know? And then when a cat. Like, when a cat who's not very cuddly comes and, like, cuddles you on your lap or, like, gives you affection, you're like, oh, my goodness, like, this day is, like, the best day ever. Like, they chose me versus, like, May a dog. My family has a dog. She is, like, cuddly all the time and super affectionate. And when she's affectionate, like, we are also very happy. But it's not the same amount of shock and joy as if, like, a cat who doesn't do that does it to you.
- [37:34]
Adam Grant
I have to laugh at the cat comment because I'll never forget when I turned in my first book. I remember my editor reading it and saying, you know, Adam, dogs are givers and cats are takers.
- [37:48]
Sherry Liu
Do you agree?
- [37:49]
Adam Grant
No, I don't agree. Yeah, I think cats are. They're more selective, and that means it really counts when they give.
- [37:59]
Vanessa Bonds
Mmm.
- [38:00]
Sherry Liu
What does that say?
- [38:03]
Adam Grant
Setting boundaries isn't a display of disrespect. It's an expression of self respect. It's not about letting others down. It's about standing up for yourself. Saying no is not selfish. It's an act of self preservation. Which brings us back to the Giving Tree, or as Topher Payne's rewrite is called, the Tree who Set Healthy Boundaries. His version starts when the boy is grown up and returns to the tree for the first time. I am too busy to climb trees, said the boy. I want a house to keep me warm. He said, I want a wife and I want children, and so I need a house. Can you give me a house? And the tree said, okay, hold up. This is already getting out of hand. Look, I was fine with giving you the apples to help you get on your feet. They'll grow back next season anyway. But no, I'm not giving you a house. You know, I've seen boys like you pull this nonsense with other trees in the forest. First it's the apples, then branches, then the trunk, and before you know it, that mighty beautiful tree is just a sad little stump. Well, look here, boy. I love you like family, but I am not going down like that. And the boy is okay with that. He realizes he hasn't been a very good friend and begins to look after the tree just like the tree looked after him. Eventually he has kids who also love the tree. And as each generation played in her strong old branches, the tree often thought back to the fateful day when the boy had asked her for a house. In truth, she would have gladly given him her branches to build one. She would have given him her trunk to build a boat. She loved him that much. But then she would have had nothing left, not for herself nor anyone else. And there never would have been a home for the red squirrels. There'd have been no hide and seek with the boy's grandchildren, no bakery with the best apple pies anyone ever tasted. Setting healthy boundaries is a very important part of giving. It assures you'll always have something left to give. And so the tree was happy. Everyone was. The end. This episode was produced by Daphne Chen. Our team includes Brittany Cronin, Constanza Gallardo, Greta Cohn, Grace Rubenstein, Daniela Ballarezzo, Ben Ben Chang, Alejandro Salazar and Roxanne hi Lash. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our show is mixed by Sarah Bruguer. Original music by Hansdale sue and Alison Layton Brown. Gratitude to the following researchers and their Heidi Fritz and Vicki Helgeson on Unmitigated Communion Vanessa Patrick on the Acquaintance Trap Madeline Heilman and Julie Chen on gender and helping Linda Babcock and colleagues on non promotable tasks Jennifer Bertol and Celia Moore on Double Jeopardy in the Workplace Place Dalian Cain and colleagues on Giving versus Giving In Jerry Greenberg and Tom Tyler on Legitimacy Joel Brockner on Receiver Reactions Hannah Riley Bowles on Women in Negotiation Tactics Yijin park on Referral Aversion Vanessa's co authors Frank Flynn, Rachel Schlund and Madi Rogan Azad. Thanks to Izzy Carter and Theo Ben. All right, what's one you want to throw at me? What's the hardest request for you to say no to? I feel like I should eat my own dog food here.
- [42:03]
Vanessa Bonds
I mean, I guess, you know. Adam, I have another book coming out. Will you plug it on social media.
- [42:11]
Adam Grant
To borrow a line from Jim on the office that is not something I am going to do.
- [42:22]
Vanessa Bonds
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Adam Grant
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Adam Grant
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