Podcast Summary: Worklife with Adam Grant Episode: Jacinda Ardern on Leading with Empathy and Overcoming Self-Doubt
Release Date: July 1, 2025

In this compelling episode of Worklife with Adam Grant, organizational psychologist Adam Grant engages in an insightful conversation with Dame Jacinda Ardern, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand. They delve deep into the themes of empathetic leadership, overcoming self-doubt, and the intricate balance between personal and professional responsibilities. This summary captures the essence of their discussion, highlighting key points, notable quotes, and the profound insights shared throughout the episode.

1. Introduction to Empathetic Leadership

The episode kicks off with Adam Grant setting the stage for a profound exploration of leadership through empathy and kindness.

• Adam Grant [03:00]:
  "My guest today is Dame Jacinda Ardern... I'm excited to talk with her about empathetic leadership, why kindness is not weakness but strength, how she managed imposter syndrome, what she's rethought when it comes to leading through Covid."

2. Embracing Vulnerability in Leadership

Jacinda Ardern opens up about her personal traits and the societal misconceptions surrounding vulnerability, especially in leadership roles.

• Jacinda Ardern [04:31]:
  "Vulnerability doesn't mean you have to be crying in front of people. Vulnerability can be just recognizing how you feel."

She further explains the importance of acknowledging emotions as a strength rather than a weakness, challenging traditional leadership stereotypes.

• Jacinda Ardern [05:00]:
  "I really wanted to speak to those who whisper behind a closed hand... it's wrong to assume these things are incompatible with leadership."

3. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

The conversation delves into the pervasive issue of imposter syndrome, especially among high achievers.

• Adam Grant [06:19]:
  "There's a difference between debilitating doubt... and more motivating doubt... which is, I wonder if I'm as good as other people think I am."

• Jacinda Ardern [06:36]:
  "Those same things that might cause you to hold back or worry... are the same things that can drive you to better prepare."

4. Rising to Prime Ministership at a Young Age

Jacinda shares her journey to becoming New Zealand's youngest female head of state, emphasizing the blend of responsibility and self-doubt she experienced.

• Jacinda Ardern [07:59]:
  "Taking on something fast can sometimes override self-doubt. And maybe that's not a bad push and pull."

5. The Weight of Responsibility

Exploring the transition from seeing leadership as an opportunity to viewing it as a responsibility, Jacinda discusses the challenges of maintaining confidence amidst immense pressure.

• Adam Grant [09:20]:
  "People who are in it for somewhat self-serving reasons... are very hesitant to loosen their grip on it."

• Jacinda Ardern [09:47]:
  "In political leadership, you can't really canvass widely the decision to leave because it is something that if it's found out or heard, the decision gets taken out of your hands."

6. Balancing Personal Experiences with Leadership Duties

Jacinda reflects on her childhood experiences and how the drive to be useful shaped her leadership style.

• Jacinda Ardern [12:50]:
  "I was always there trying to be a bit older than I was, thinking that I was being useful."

7. Leading Through the COVID-19 Pandemic

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Jacinda's leadership during the pandemic, highlighting her approach to decision-making, communication, and maintaining trust.

• Adam Grant [25:11]:
  "Your communication during that time was just a masterclass in leading with what I've come to think of as confident humility."

• Jacinda Ardern [25:56]:
  "Transparency was key. Just being really clear, 'We don't have all the answers, but this is our plan in an imperfect decision-making environment.'"

8. Addressing Public Fatigue and Misinformation

The challenges of vaccine hesitancy, misinformation, and public fatigue are discussed, with Jacinda emphasizing the complexities of navigating these issues.

• Jacinda Ardern [28:01]:
  "We saw vaccine hesitancy, disinformation, and even interference offshore. It was a complex environment."

9. The Decision to Step Down

Jacinda shares the personal and professional factors that led to her resignation, stressing the importance of recognizing one's limits and prioritizing long-term well-being over continued service.

• Jacinda Ardern [35:47]:
  "I felt that same weight of responsibility to make sure that at any given moment I could step up a little bit further. And that was waning after five years."

10. Reflections on Leadership and Legacy

In the concluding segments, Jacinda articulates her hopes for the future of politics, emphasizing the need for empathy, humility, and maintaining high standards in leadership.

• Jacinda Ardern [43:55]:
  "What I hope is that people don't change their expectation of that as well. Maintain your own optimism, but also your expectation."

• Adam Grant [44:19]:
  "Optimism is an act of courage."

11. Lightning Round

The episode concludes with a light-hearted lightning round, where Jacinda shares personal preferences and insights, reinforcing her grounded and empathetic nature.

• Adam Grant [41:12]:
  "Who is your dream dinner party guest that you haven't met?"

• Jacinda Ardern [41:19]:
  "Ernest Shackleton."

Key Takeaways:

• Empathetic Leadership: True leadership is rooted in empathy and kindness, challenging the notion that these traits are signs of weakness.

• Imposter Syndrome: Even high achievers grapple with self-doubt, but embracing vulnerability can lead to more effective and prepared leadership.

• Responsibility vs. Opportunity: Viewing leadership as a responsibility can shift focus from personal ambition to serving others.

• Communication During Crises: Transparent and honest communication fosters trust, especially during unprecedented challenges like a pandemic.

• Personal Well-being: Recognizing and respecting personal limits is crucial for sustained and effective leadership.

• Legacy and Expectations: Maintaining high standards and not settling for mediocrity ensures that politics remains a force for positive change.

This episode serves as a profound exploration of modern leadership, offering listeners valuable insights into balancing personal authenticity with the demands of guiding a nation. Jacinda Ardern's reflections provide a blueprint for aspiring leaders to navigate the complexities of power with grace, empathy, and unwavering commitment to the greater good.