Julia Louis-Dreyfus on doing death, truth-telling in comedy and getting wiser (from On with Kara Swisher)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Julia Louis-Dreyfus on Doing Death, Truth-Telling in Comedy and Getting Wiser"

Worklife with Adam Grant brings you an insightful and engaging conversation with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, exploring themes of mortality, authenticity in comedy, and personal growth. Hosted by Kara Swisher and produced in partnership with Transmitter Media, this episode delves deep into Julia’s illustrious career, her latest creative endeavors, and her perspectives on aging and community.

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Introduction to Julia Louis-Dreyfus

The episode opens with Kara Swisher introducing Julia Louis-Dreyfus, a comedy legend renowned for her award-winning performances across three iconic sitcoms:

• Elaine Benes in Seinfeld
• Christine Campbell in The New Adventures of Old Christine
• Vice President Selina Meyer in Veep

Julia Louis-Dreyfus highlights Julia's impressive accolades, including 11 Emmys, the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor, and the National Medal of Arts. She expresses deep admiration for Julia’s versatility and impact on comedy.

Kara Swisher [02:18]: "She's obviously a comedy legend. I'm an enormous fan."

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Exploring "Wiser Than Me" Podcast

Julia discusses her new podcast, Wiser Than Me, which features life lessons from women over 70, including notable figures like Jane Fonda, Fran Lebowitz, Gloria Steinem, Patti Smith, and Anne Lamott. The podcast aims to uncover wisdom gleaned from decades of experience, focusing on profound topics such as death and grief.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus [05:14]: "We are really not hearing from them. And I wish there was a place where we could just only hear from old women."

The Medium of Podcasting

The conversation shifts to the podcasting medium, with Julia explaining why she chose it over more traditional formats like television. She emphasizes the intimacy and depth that podcasts allow, creating a relaxed environment conducive to meaningful dialogue.

Esther Perel [06:44]: "I just find it interesting to communicate that way."

Julia reflects on the challenges of maintaining a podcast, acknowledging it as a marathon but noting its rewards in connecting deeply with listeners.

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Insights from the Conversations

Julia shares insights from her interviews, highlighting the joy and resilience of her guests. She recounts her conversation with Isabel Allende, who expressed immense joy in her later years.

Esther Perel [09:21]: "I was struck by her complete joy in life. I was overcome by it."

Julia adds her perspective on aging, emphasizing the freedom that comes with age, such as not needing to please others.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus [10:07]: "You don't have to follow anybody's lead. You don't have to follow fashion or nothing."

Community and Connection

Addressing a question from Esther Perel about the role of community in processing complex emotions, Julia underscores the importance of human connection. She illustrates this with a personal story about engaging in meaningful conversation with a stranger at a grocery store when feeling lonely.

Esther Perel [17:32]: "The answer is yes, the collective is the way out."

Julia echoes this sentiment, sharing her own experiences and reinforcing the necessity of community in combating isolation.

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Discussion on Julia’s Latest Film: "Tuesday"

Julia introduces her latest film, Tuesday, a surreal exploration of death and the parent-child bond, featuring a talking macaw representing death. She explains her attraction to the film’s themes of grief and acceptance, drawing parallels to her personal experiences with loss.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus [22:23]: "What attracted me was the ferocity of the parent child bond… the lengths that a mother would go to keep death away."

Esther delves into the film's symbolism, discussing how the character Zora evolves to accept mortality and shift her role in her relationship with her daughter.

Esther Perel [26:32]: "By the end of the film, Zora comes to realize how she must parent her child in a functional way, which includes accepting the realities of her situation."

The Art of Comedy

The conversation transitions to Julia’s views on comedy, particularly the balance between physical and intellectual humor. She asserts that both forms are equally challenging and rewarding, highlighting the importance of material quality.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus [36:07]: "I don't think it's hard… It's as much fun."

Esther agrees, noting that comedy thrives on risk and truthfulness, which makes it both enjoyable and impactful.

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"Seinfeld" and Its Enduring Appeal

Julia reflects on the enduring popularity of Seinfeld, attributing its success to its universal humor and timeless portrayal of the human condition. She mentions specific episodes that stand out, such as "The Soup Nazi" and "The Subway."

Esther Perel [37:44]: "It's undeniably funny. It speaks to really universal truths."

Julia expresses delight over the show's resurgence on streaming platforms, ensuring that new generations continue to connect with its humor.

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Navigating the Entertainment Industry

The discussion moves to Julia’s experiences in the entertainment industry, including her overall deal with Apple TV and concerns about the corporatization of the arts. She shares her selective approach to project development, preferring to maintain control and avoid the overwhelm of managing a production company.

Esther Perel [40:10]: "I'm not going to be Reese Witherspooning it… I approach projects very specifically."

Julia touches on her involvement in political events, like moderating at the Democratic convention, and her advocacy for down-ballot races as crucial for sustaining democracy.

Esther Perel [43:29]: "I'm involved politically. I do a lot of work in down ballot races… with a vengeance."

Personal Reflections and Future Endeavors

Towards the end of the episode, Julia discusses her reflections on legacy and the importance of her children as her true "echo."

Esther Perel [45:08]: "My echo is my two boys and them being good human beings and good citizens."

The conversation concludes with Julia humorously addressing questions about her future projects and the challenges of maintaining privacy, emphasizing her commitment to meaningful and controlled creative endeavors.

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Conclusion

Julia Louis-Dreyfus offers a profound exploration of life's complexities, blending humor with deep philosophical insights. Her discussions on aging, community, and the art of comedy provide listeners with valuable perspectives on navigating both personal and professional landscapes. This episode is a testament to Julia's enduring legacy and her continual evolution as an artist and thinker.

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Notable Quotes:

• Julia Louis-Dreyfus [10:07]: "You don't have to follow anybody's lead. You don't have to follow fashion or nothing."
• Esther Perel [17:32]: "The collective is the way out."
• Esther Perel [37:44]: "It's undeniably funny. It speaks to really universal truths."
• Esther Perel [45:08]: "My echo is my two boys and them being good human beings and good citizens."

Timestamp Highlights:

• [02:18]: Introduction of Julia Louis-Dreyfus and her achievements.
• [05:14]: Genesis of the Wiser Than Me podcast.
• [09:21]: Insights from Isabel Allende’s interview.
• [10:07]: Freedom and authenticity in aging.
• [22:23]: Discussion on the film Tuesday.
• [37:44]: Seinfeld's universal appeal.
• [43:29]: Julia’s political involvement and advocacy.

This episode is a compelling blend of humor, vulnerability, and wisdom, offering listeners a chance to gain deeper understanding of life's profound moments through the lens of one of comedy's most beloved figures.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It is on. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swish Her. We've had a slew of power women on on and today we're keeping up that streak. Comedian and actor Julie Louis Dreyfuss. She's obviously a comedy legend. I'm an enormous fan. She's won 11 Emmys, a record of eight she got for playing some of TV's most iconic female characters on three different sitcoms. Elaine Bennis in Seinfeld, Christine Campbell in the New Adventures of Old Christine, and, of course, Vice President Selina Meyer in Veep. I don't know which one I like the most. I like all the characters. I suspect Selena's my because she's real. Actually, I've met people like her, but my kids like Seinfeld. I love Seinfeld. It stays fresh even today. And she's probably my favorite character on that show besides Jerry Stiller. And her scene. If you haven't seen it, it's on YouTube of her and Jerry Stiller cracking each other up is one of the finest bits of comedy I've ever seen. She's been honored with the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor and the National Medal of Arts. She is a national treasure, obviously. And now she's winning awards for her new podcast, Wiser Than Me, where she gets life lessons from women over 70. Jane Fonda, Fran Leibowitz, Gloria Steinem, Patti Smith, Anne Lamott, who I also recently spoke to. They've talked about what they've learned and how they've coped with the hard stuff, including death and grief, which is also the focus of Julia's latest film, Tuesday. And so, fittingly, our question this week comes from psychotherapist and host of Where Should I Begin Podcasts, Esther Perel. I'm excited to talk to her, and I think you'll be excited to hear from her.

[Kara Swisher]

It is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

O. Hi.

[Esther Perel]

Hi, Kara.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How you doing? Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my goodness. It's my pleasure.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The movie was astonishing. I have to say. You were fantastic in it.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, thank you very much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And I love anything about death, so I'm very excited about it.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I do too, actually.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But first, I wanna talk about the podcast. Your podcasting empire.

[Esther Perel]

Hardly.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, you're doing really well. You just wrapped up the second season of Wiser Than Me, which you interview women over 70. A lot of celebrities have podcasts these days. Obviously, a lot of them are different from yours. For example, I think Smartless is basically a buddy comedy. Talk about how you decided to do this and the way you conceived of it.

[Esther Perel]

Well, it just. I watched the Jane Fonda documentary. I don't know if you've seen it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure have. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. It's phenomenal in my view. And I was just riveted. And after watching that, I really did think, oh, God, where are all the old women? We're not Hearing from these women.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, we are really not hearing from them. And I wish there was a place where we could just only hear from old women. And so that's where it sort of began. And I thought, well, maybe I'll do it. And, you know, and that's how it started. It was born out of a curiosity. Not any desire to do a podcast necessarily, but just to actually hear from older women. And then I sort of developed it with my. With my college roommate. And it's been a real. A labor of love and passion.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's been very popular. It's very high up on the rankings. Were you surprised by that?

[Esther Perel]

You know, I was surprised by it because I wasn't really thinking about how it would do. I was just thinking about doing it, if that makes sense. I wasn't going after it with that ambition. That doesn't mean I'm not ambitious, of course, but it really means that I was just trying to think of people that would be interesting to talk to at great. At great length.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How do you look at the podcast medium as a way to do that? You know, a lot of people get in and they get out of it pretty quickly because it's hard. It's a marathon. It's a real marathon.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And some make money, some don't, but they. It can be very lucrative. I've had a really good run in that regard. But how do you look at it as a medium to communicate this? Because there's lots of ways you could have done this. You could have had a talk show, television. Yeah, I know.

[Esther Perel]

Well, I mean, I guess because sort of like the conversation we're having now, which feels relaxed. If you and I were in front of an audience right now and having to talk and I was in hair and makeup and all that crap, it's a different. It's an absolutely different content of conversation. And I actually enjoy talking to people on their podcasts when we sort of get into depth about things. Cause I think it's interesting. I just find it interesting to communicate that way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. Conversation.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And so I thought that this medium would be conducive to those kinds of intimate conversations where we maybe get a little bit more underneath, period. Also, we don't video the podcast at all. So there's no pressure on these women who may have a feeling of self consciousness because they're older. I'm not suggesting they should, of course, but in case, just to make it as relaxed as possible.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. So a conversation, this, you know, this sort of my dinner with Andre kind of vibe to it. How do you pick the subjects and the approach? Like, what does your goal say with Jane Fonda? You talk to her about ambition?

[Esther Perel]

Well, it's really dictated by the women themselves. We do. I do, with my team's help. I do an enormous amount of research in prep and so that I can come to this conversation and not squander it. So it's really their lives. And what strikes me as interesting to delve into, I mean, talking to somebody like Isabel Allende versus that was great. Bonnie Raitt or Patti Smith or Beverly Johnson. These are, you know, they've had wildly varied lies from one another. So it's just, it's entirely based on their experience. That said, though, there are a particular set of questions that I love to hear them answer. I mean, I always open by asking how old they are and how old do they feel. And there are all these subjects that I like to delve into, like loss, for example, ambition. And then at the end, I might say things like, you know, what would you say to your 21 year old self? Or, you know, what do you wish you'd said no or yes to that kind of thing?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So you talked about being radicalized by these women or more radicalized by these women. I think that was the quote. Who have you been most influenced by and what surprised you in the interviews, which you didn't expect? I don't know. Isabel Allende is a crackup. I don't know what.

[Esther Perel]

Well, Isabel Allende, my God, what a phenomenal human being. I was struck by her complete joy in life. I was overcome by it. And she talked about being in her 80s as being the best thing ever. And she meant it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I have a very good life. I'm very happy.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, God, that's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm so happy, Julia, really. I'm happy to be alive. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be looking through my window right now. I live very close to a lagoon and I see the ducks and the geese and it's fantastic.

[Esther Perel]

What do you think the best part about being your age is that you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Don'T have to please anybody.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Only the people you love and the people you care for. But not the world, not everybody else. You don't have to follow anybody's lead. You don't have to follow fashion or nothing. If I try to look good, it's because it pleases me, not because I'm trying to please anybody else. I don't care, really.

[Esther Perel]

And that was just like, oh, my God, it was A completely different lens through which to consider aging. Gloria Steinem, who I spoke to for this season, obviously was just extraordinary. She actually talked about how as you age, and I'm gonna butcher this, she was talking about how as you age, your inner girl becomes more realized. Do you think that women become more radical as they get older?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I suppose nothing is true all the time, but I do think it's possible that it's often true because we outlive the stereotypical expectations of marriage and family and this subordinate role, if that's still around or, you know, I mean, I think just as we are maybe more ourselves when we're before 10 or 11 years old and we're little girls who are climbing trees and saying, you know, I know what I want, I know what I think, and the feminine role hasn't descended upon us yet. We may also be more ourselves at the other end of the feminine role. And I always think it would be great if an army of gray haired women could take over the earth.

[Esther Perel]

Well, then the earth would be a safe place in my view. You know, it really would. It would be much better. It would be much better. There is a theme with all of these women, all of them, which is a shedding of what's expected of you as a woman, which is particularly fascinating to me and important to realize.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I believe the technical term is no more fucks left to give.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But it's not necessarily a negative thing, right?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, no, it's fantastic. It's like I am. There's less bullshit. I say what I feel, I know what I know, I know more. And that's the whole conceit of the podcast. They know more. So come on, let's listen to them.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Let's listen to them. Come on, woman. We'll get to your movie in a minute. Come on, woman. That was the best end line. I have to say. One of the things that I think, the reason it works, this is a lot about you and how it changes your thinking, whether it's about the movie industry, women's rights becoming more political. Have these convers changed you yourself? Given you're looking for wisdom wiser than me, Is that wisdom being put to use in your own life?

[Esther Perel]

Well, I will say that my reflections afterwards, after I actually have these conversations, I think a lot about them. And I will often or most often write with my husband. The. The story at the beginning of the podcast, that sort of will be a thread into the conversation. And so I would say certainly it's. I don't know if this is good or not, but it's. I've always been a very private person in a lot of ways, and I've made a bit of a shift in terms of sharing aspects of myself. I don't know if I'm ultimately going to regret that, but. But I have done that in a way that I find surprising.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right. You realize you don't have that much time for regret anymore, so it's okay. Is it fine if you let them out, but you also call your mom and talk to her about them?

[Esther Perel]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How does that go? Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Well, this occurred to me to do when we were developing the show because my mother is very intelligent, curious. She's completely with it. She's 90, and she has been my. She's been my beloved mother. I don't know what else to say. And so I. And she's very intellectual. And so I thought, my God, of all the women, I must. I must include my mother in this in some way. So the idea of downloading with my mom feels right, because I download with my mom and I enjoy her. I thought maybe people would enjoy. And she's getting a huge kick out of it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Yeah. Would you bring her on? I don't believe you have. Correct. I think that would be. I'm waiting for that one, honestly.

[Esther Perel]

You are? That's something I'm considering, I suppose.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think you have to. I've had my son and my brother on and stuff. Like, they've been some of the most popular ones, which is interesting, especially my son. He's very wise for a young person. But I would love to hear your mom and her thoughts on it. I think it would be really good because she's a character in your podcast. I mean, podcasts are about characters. In any case, we got a question this week from someone who's a fan of your podcast, psychotherapist Esther Perel, host of the podcast Where Should I Begin? I don't know. If you listen to it, it's fantastic, and you'll hear her question for you.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's okay. Hello, Julia. Louis Dreyfus. So much of your work on the podcast is about starting conversation that the world needs to listen in on. And that really resonates with me. How do you think about the role of community, of the collective in working through some of the very issues that you are processing on the show? The importance of the collective in addressing aging or loss or love or grief, hope, desire? What is the relationship between the I and Tao in the process, in the processing of such complicated Existential. Thank you. She's a therapist. She's a well known therapist. I know, I know. And she's a fantastic.

[Esther Perel]

Kara, you answer it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Are you not smart enough?

[Esther Perel]

I'm a dumbass.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, you are not.

[Esther Perel]

You said that I couldn't understand.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You are not a dumbass.

[Esther Perel]

Stop. No, I'm making a joke. I know I'm not a dumbass, but. Well, I mean, to be honest with you, I think she answered the question. In her question, she was talking about community and the collective, the we, in terms of dealing with issues and addressing loss and love and so on and so forth. And the answer is yes, the collective is the way out. I think actually her question speaks to something that's come out of these conversations, actually, particularly with my mother, which is the key is connect, connect, connect. I don't mean plug your computer in. I mean connect with human beings. There's everything to be said for community and everything not to be said about isolation. And we're in a land of isolation now, which is paralyzing and toxic. So I think there's nothing but value in finding ways to take action, to connect with other people in every sense.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think people are desperate for it. Desperate for it.

[Esther Perel]

Desperate for it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And agreement. One of the reasons I always say one of my podcasts, Pivot works, is because I'm connecting with a man who I disagree with in a way that's kind and we disagree a lot. And people are desperate for that. They're desperate.

[Esther Perel]

They're desperate for a kind conversation, you know? Yeah, it's funny, I remember once. This is neither here nor there, but it was a while back and I was by myself. It was a weekend where I sort of didn't have plans and my husband wasn't there and I was sort of alone. And I remember that I went to the grocery store and I found myself having an in depth conversation with the checkout woman at the register. And I started asking her questions about her life. And I realized afterwards what was happening, which was. It was. I was lonely and I became very, very interested in her life. Why wouldn't I be interested? Everybody has an interesting life. But I remember noting that, like, oh, that's interesting. I really sought a human being out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, it's an important story. Years ago. You know what your podcast reminds me of? Spalding Gray did a show at the Kennedy center many years ago where he brought people from the audience and just interviewed them, just randomly. And it was brilliant because he said, everyone's story is interesting if you just talk to them. And it was, you know, he had his own troubles, as, you know, how his life ended. But it was the most riveting conversations I've ever seen because. And that's what you're talking about here.

[Esther Perel]

And that's what I'm talking about. And by the way, that's something my mother does and to sometimes great frustration to me and my sisters because she'll talk to anybody and ask them everything. And as a result, she's a vibrant human being. But it does mean it takes a while to. To get out of any situation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. Until your ultimate demise. What if we just say forever? Okay, $25 a month. Forever. Get unlimited talk, text and Data for.

[Esther Perel]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So, speaking of connection, let's talk about Tuesday. Dealing with existentialism and grief. Just to let people know this is not a comedy. But it is funny in many ways. It's actually very funny. Giant Julie Louise Dreyfus is my favorite. Julie Louise Dreyfus. You handle your tallness really well. But also and smallness you didn't like smallness much, but the you going through the grass as a tiny thing was. Ugh. I felt the borrowers all over again. Anyway, but it's about death, literally in the form of a talking macaw. I believe that's the bird I have not seen a movie like this in. I think for some reason, the John Malkovich movie was the last one. It reminded me of. Of the feelings I had during it. It's obviously a fantasy. It's surreal in many ways. It feels, you know, like a Garcia Marquez book or something like that. Can you talk a little bit? What attracted you and the reason for taking it on?

[Esther Perel]

So the script was sent to me by a 24 and I, you know, it was crazy bananas, this script, but the themes of the film, the parent, child bond, grief, loss, death, dying, acceptance, denial, all of these themes are incredibly interesting to me as a human being. And so then I met with Dina Opuchik, who is the writer, director, Croatian Woman. This is her first feature film. And I met with her just to get a sense, of course, of who she was and what her intentions were and if I felt comfortable in her hands. And I came away feeling very trusting of her and signed up. God, you know, she's quite an artist, I'm sure. I know you'll be hearing more from her as a filmmaker. And the animation, of course, was. It was paramount that the animation within the film was expert of the bird. Yes. But I do want to say that within the film, as you say, there's this sort of monster, like bird macaw thing that is representing death. And a lot of people think that was just cgi. In fact, it was not. It was played by an extraordinary actor, Arinze Kene. He was a cast member with us. And then what the animators did was they used his performance and animated over him. And so I always like to give a shout out to Arinze because you're not actually necessarily seeing him, but you actually are very much seeing him.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's interesting. It's like in Lord of the Rings, because he was there. In that conversation you had at the table, I was like, the actor is sitting there with you.

[Esther Perel]

Correct.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's what I thought. That's what I figured. Amazing, amazing performance, by the way, and disturbing at the same time, but also very funny, but very funny bird. But in the movie, a mother and daughter are basically having a conversation with death and about death together. You've been through a cancer treatment, you're a parent. I've had a stroke. My dad died. Talk about what you draw to understand about the depths of grief, because in this case, you're dealing with someone else's death or impending death.

[Esther Perel]

Well, I've also lost people close to me. I've lost my dad, I lost my sister. And so, yeah, I'm certainly keenly aware of our mortal lives. So I brought all of that with me to this. But I think the first thing that really appealed to me about this was the ferocity of the parent child bond, which it's undeniable and it's enormous. And so I enjoyed that aspect of the script. The lengths that a mother would go to to keep death away. And it really explores that, including, by the way, denial. Denial of a reality.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. Not being there. Not being there. I mean, you know, it's interesting. When I heard the description of it, I almost didn't want to watch it because I have kids and the idea of. I just. You know what I mean? It's one of those things that I was thinking the other day right before I watched it. I'm like, totally. I have so many kids, I've upped my chances of being upset. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know why it popped into my brain, but one of the. The thing is a grief of knowing you're gonna lose someone. Now, we know that with older people, but it's harder. Your character, Zora, tries to avoid her daughter selling off bits and pieces of their beautiful things. And then you go to the other extreme, which is barbecuing and trying to eat death, literally being forced by death to confront it. Can you talk a little bit about that, a little more about the parent child bond? Because your character's at the center of that and your child is kind of the. Zora's really the child in the relationship in a weird way.

[Esther Perel]

Right. That's what is the dysfunction. Certainly at the start of the film is Zora's daughter, whose name is Tuesday, is really parenting her mother. And the journey. Well, there are many journeys within the film, but one of the biggest journeys, I think, is the flip. So that by the end of the film, Zora comes to realize how she must parent her child in a functional way, which includes accepting the realities of her situation.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

One of the things that's striking is not knowing the pain her daughter is in, not being aware of the pain until she can hear her as having eaten death. So she has this hearing.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, well, she has a. I mean, it's very symbolic. It's very metaphorical. It's because of the transformation that happens. We're talking about this in such a way, I hope it's clear to people listening. Because what Zora does is she fights death in an effort to keep death away, and then ultimately sort of becomes death.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

She is. She learns by doing death.

[Esther Perel]

She learns by doing and then realizes that as death, she has to come to her daughter. Oh, my God. I can't stand even saying. Still upsets me. I can't stand it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, it's like a death doula in a weird way.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Which of course, there is. Which I think is remarkable. And, God, I think about that a lot. When I talked with Isabel Allende and we were talking about this thing called death, and I was remarking. Cause I had the. Actually the gift of being able to be with my dad when he passed away. And I was very much struck by how that waiting and being with him was not dissimilar from waiting for some child to be born for a birth. And the similarity in those transitions are similar. And I'm not suggesting that one is as joyful as the other, but they are from a life living point of view. I was very. And she was talking about that as well.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, what's interesting about it is she becomes joyful when she's doing death. Right. That night of putting people at rest, the people screaming in the background, and you don't get to see a lot of it, except for a couple of scenes, was very funny, even though it wasn't funny. You know what I mean? Like, ah. And the bird. Bang, bang, bang. I was in hysterics with that. I was like, oh, that's what would happen if death went away. Death took a holiday. Right. Speaking of which. But she gets joyful by doing death. Would you like to have that power? Would you ever fuck?

[Esther Perel]

No. Are you kidding me?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Really? I kind of would.

[Esther Perel]

You would, Kara? Really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Because it's kind. It's a kindness. That macaw isn't cruel. That macaw is kind.

[Esther Perel]

That's too much for me to bear.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. The pain.

[Esther Perel]

I can't handle it. I pass on that job opportunity in real life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All right. Okay. All right. Well, you can do the life part. You can do the. They're linked together. So one of the things. I have just one more question about the movie, and then I want to talk a little bit about your longer career. But you finished this movie three years ago. As I said, looking back, does the idea of Come on, woman still resonate?

[Esther Perel]

Well, actually, it's a Get up, woman.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Get up, woman. Excuse me. Get up, woman. Sorry.

[Esther Perel]

And yes, it's almost a mantra. I think it works. It certainly applies to my life. What's the alternative? You've got to get up. You've got to keep. I mean, we have a limited amount of time. Let's go. Let's get it done.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Esther Perel]

Just $25 a month with Boost Mobile Forever.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Esther Perel]

To let you know that this podcast.

[Kara Swisher]

Is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening.

[Esther Perel]

To this podcast right now is because.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You chose it well.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Price and coverage match limited by state law.

[Esther Perel]

Not available in all states.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I Want to talk a little bit about your career in comedy? You made a joke at the Mark twain Award in 2018 about being a dramatic actress. That was part of the bit. Damn you, Peter Hall. What a mistake. But it would be hard not to finish up with a legacy as a comedic actress. We met at the awards show where you won the Webby Podcast of the Year for Wiser Than Me. But in your long television career, you've won 11 Emmys. You're one of the few actors who has played not one, but three iconic television characters. Elaine Bennis, Christine Campbell, and Vice President Selina Meyer. How do you look at each character now? And to me, this is just me. And you could have a different take. I'm just an audience member. They have a common. Is a need to be in the boys club. Am I getting that wrong? And all kidding aside, would it have been easier to be Portia?

[Esther Perel]

Well, I mean, all of the characters, the thread between them all is profound. Frustration, I think is. And, of course, aren't you frustrated? I mean, as a woman, isn't that, you know, it's like frustration is kind of, for me, a driver, and it certainly is with all of these women. And I would say, you know, Selina Meyer in the most obvious and sort of ultimate of ways. Yeah, but, you know, in that Mark Twain speech, and I was talking about being a dramatic. And, you know, the truth is, is that I really do enjoy doing drama, and it's actually why I took on this role, because I wanted to exercise that muscle again and have an opportunity to show that this is in my wheelhouse. So that joke about the quality of mercy is not strange, was actually born out of a true place, truth be told.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'm not going to wade you into the Seinfeld controversy, because I think that has nothing to do with you, but I'd love to know what you think is funny. Now, everyone seems to have a theory, obviously, but what do you think is funny right at this moment? We're in.

[Esther Perel]

That question's funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I think there's a lot of talk about how comics can't be funny. Now, I think that's not true. I think comics are funnier than they.

[Esther Perel]

No, that's bullshit. I think that's bullshit.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Physical comedy and intellectual comedy and political comedy, I think, has never been more interesting because there's so much to do.

[Esther Perel]

Well, it's a ripe. Yes, it's a ripe time. You know, comedy is risky and it can be offensive, but that's what makes it so enjoyable. Not that it's Offensive, but that it's risky, that it's truth. It can be very truth telling and with risk. I just. I don't buy the conceit. I personally don't buy the conceit that this is an impossible time to be funny. Maybe some people aren't laughing at your jokes, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be made.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. So one of the things Elaine is known, for example, with the physical moves, although the dry retorts or the shoves or the dance, but also the retorts. And Selena to me is all feral facial expressions and wicked verbal cuts. Is it harder to do physical or intellectual comedy?

[Esther Perel]

They're of equal strain. The physical comedy sometimes, in my experience, is stuff that I've often found in rehearsal. So it takes a little exploring to find it. But I wouldn't say that it's hard. I just. I would say it's as much fun. There's nothing more exciting than having really good material and then elevating it if you can. And if you do it physically, it's just delish.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Absolutely. I have a couple more questions. Seinfeld in particular, for example, which I think you'll probably be best known for. Even though I preferred Veep. I know it sounds. I love Seinfeld too, but is having this renaissance on Netflix? A lot of young people are watching the show. My son was like, have you heard of Seinfeld? I'm like, yeah. Why do you think it holds up and that younger generations are connecting?

[Esther Perel]

Well, I don't know why that it's having this resurgence. I'm delighted that it is. It holds up because it's.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's the human condition.

[Esther Perel]

It's undeniably funny. It wasn't fadish. It speaks to really universal truths and period. It's just like a great show and it'll always be a great show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Is there a show, if you had to introduce someone to it, that you would show them first? There's obviously the famous ones. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Master of your own domain, is there any show you would say, look at this one?

[Esther Perel]

Well, I don't know. Probably something from seasons four or five, when we started to really get our stride. It's interesting to watch the show because. Not that I do. I don't really watch the show, but when it first started, it was slow by comparison, and the pace started to pick up and it became more. It just became snappier as it went along. Maybe the Soup Nazi. The Soup Nazi was a good one, I think.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The breasts was one of my favorite favorites. The bris.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, really? That's hilarious.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And the double dipping. There's so many. The subway episode, but. But one of the things that's interesting is Netflix reportedly paid more than $500 million for the Seinfeld rights for five years. The contract started in 2021. Did you see any of that money?

[Esther Perel]

Not one cent.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. How do you feel about that?

[Esther Perel]

Fantastic.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I would love you to go on about that. Alana Glazier, who was pretty critical about streaming services. What's your take? You're going into AI next for free, Just so you know, but go ahead.

[Esther Perel]

Good, because I know nothing about it. Look, here's my take on all of this. I'm worried about the corporatization of Arts. And, for example, this movie I made, Tuesdays with a 24. One of the very few, if not the last, remaining independent studio making unusual films. I'm worried about that because it's now a lot of executives calling, and there have always been these executives, but they haven't been on top of each other like a layer cake. And I'm very worried about what that represents for good art outside the box. Because, you know, we're not making widgets here. Good ideas are often. Well, first of all, they're hard to find, and they. I can tell you one thing, they're not found by a corporation. Good, artful ideas, in my view.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. Even though you're a network note, according to Jerry Seinfeld. That was very funny.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, that was funny.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That was Fantastic. But in 2020, you signed an overall deal with Apple TV to develop new products as executive producer and actor. You've been producer on many of your shows. What does that mean exactly? And how does the deal differ from the ones you've cut over the past three decades?

[Esther Perel]

Well, first of all, I really like to. I didn't produce Tuesday, for example, but I do very much like to produce the work that I do because it just gives me more control over the product. And I've been doing this now long enough so that I think I have experience that's useful as a producer. And so that's important to me. I no longer have this deal at Apple. It ran out. It was finished. And, you know, to be honest with you, I mean, they're all perfectly nice, but nothing came out of it. And that was too bad, but it just didn't. Which is often the case with deals like that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, indeed. So what do you do now? Do you go bring your projects? You have a production company I don't either. You don't even.

[Esther Perel]

No. I don't want the headache of that right now. I just don't. I'd rather do things on a case by case basis. I mean, I'm guessing, you know, probably yes. I could have a production company. I could have. I could be developing material for myself, for other people. That's not something ultimately that excites me. It's too much. I don't need a huge universe like that. I'm not Oprah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You're not going to Reese Witherspoon it, for example.

[Esther Perel]

I'm not going to. And this is not my way to disparage them in any way. I'm just saying that's not who I am. I approach projects very specifically, and that's how I'm gonna. That's how I roll. That's how I roll.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

May I ask what you're doing next?

[Esther Perel]

I don't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, you've got a success.

[Esther Perel]

I just finished a Marvel movie.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

My son wants to know why you're.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

In the Marvel movies. You turn into a villain. From what I under. From what he tells.

[Esther Perel]

Well, I'm not allowed to say, Kara, but he tells me, as you know. Let me explain to you something. The Marvel universe, if you're in it, you have to sign an NDA every three and a half minutes. And so if I say anything to you right now, a Marvel executive will come and shoot me in the head as I'm speaking to you and possibly shoot you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He can try. He can try.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. You'll take him on good?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'll take him on good. Are you kidding?

[Esther Perel]

But anyway, I did wrap Thunderbolts and so that I have coming out next year, but in terms of like, what am I shooting next? I'm not sure. I don't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So let me ask just two more. Three more questions. Very quick. Politics. You're a moderator at the 20 Democratic convention. Some very good jokes that. Some of which apparently they cut. You can comment on that if you'd like.

[Esther Perel]

It was broadcast news to the 10th power doing that thing. I am here to tell you it was cuckoo bananas. It was Covid, the dnc, talking to comedy writers, talking to. I mean, it was nuts. Fun. Ultimately, I was delighted to have done it, although terrified. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So what are you doing this go round a campaign? I don't know if you know that there's a campaign happening presidential.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, really? And who's running?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Kara, it's a rerun. Oh, I've seen that. No, not like this. Not like this. It could be worse. It could be worse.

[Esther Perel]

I don't know. Could it be worse?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes. I just interviewed Alexandria Ocasio Cortez last week, and she was like, I'll be arrested. As if it was like, Tuesday, speaking of Tuesday. Yeah. And she quite meant it. But do you want to get involved politics?

[Esther Perel]

I am involved. Yeah. I mean, at this point, not specifically with the convention, but I'm involved politically. I do a lot of work in down ballot races, in small races and state legislatures and so on. And I'm continuing to do that, really with a vengeance.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

As we said, down ballot is the thing now.

[Esther Perel]

It is. It's a lifeline, I think, to saving democracy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Absolutely. So I wanna. I have two more questions at the end. I wanna go back to Tuesday and wiser in the end of. There's a question of whether heaven or God or the afterlife exists or not. And the bird says something amazing.

[Esther Perel]

But there is an afterlife. The echo you leave, the legacy, your memory. This.

[Kara Swisher]

This is Tuesday's afterlife.

[Esther Perel]

How you live it is how she lives.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you think of that? What's your echo besides an Oscar, obviously. And the Oscar goes to.

[Esther Perel]

I don't. My echo. Well, I'm gonna say something very Pollyanna. Ish. My echo is my two boys and them being good human beings and good citizens. If they are, then my echo is good and pure. That's my answer, period. This other crap doesn't matter.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. I just gave that answer to someone and they were surprised. I was like, that's the only thing.

[Esther Perel]

Why would you be surprised? It's so fundamental.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. I was like, just them. That's it.

[Esther Perel]

Just them. Of course, none of this other stuff is meaningful in the same way.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's interesting, but not meaningful. You're right. The last question. You start every episode of your podcast with a story about your life. I think you should continue to do that. I know you're private, but it's. I think it resonates with people. It resonates with me, certainly. Are you writing a memoir?

[Esther Perel]

No, I'm not.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

If you did, what would the title be?

[Esther Perel]

The title would be. What should the title be? Question mark. That's the title.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. All right. I think you should.

[Esther Perel]

I just pulled that out of my ass.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I like it, I like it, I like it. I like it. Anyway, thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it, and I do hope you do win the Oscar. Might be nice.

[Esther Perel]

I'm so happy to be on this to talk with you because I listen to your podcasts frequently and so to actually have this conversation in depth conversation with you has been really a delight for me. So thanks a lot. I appreciate it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Thank you so much. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Meyers and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopez Cruzado and Kate Furby. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, go ahead and do the Elaine Bennis dance. If not, get up woman and man Go Wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

[Kara Swisher]

Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding Group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan if your phone is cracked old or was chewed up by your Chihuahua Travel companion, please refrain from holding up the line and instead simply go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their touches. Top brands for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 plus with Galaxy AI on Unlimited ultimate and a watch or tab. Also on now. Service plan required for watch or tab. Trade in and additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details. Did you know one in two women wear the wrong foundation? Matching foundation is hard, but il maquillage makes it easy. Take the Power Match quiz to find a perfect match in seconds. Customize to your unique skin tone, undertone and coverage needs. With 600,000 5 star reviews woke up like this is our best selling foundation for a reason. Available in 50 shades of weightless natural coverage and with Try before youe Buy. You can try your full size at home for 14 days. Just pay shipping. Take the [e-mail] Quiz that's I L M A K I A G E.com Quiz this podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies, Sending or spending money abroad. Hidden fees may be taking a cut. That's why you should use wise. Get the currency you need where you need it for less. Tap to pay in pesos in Cancun, easily move pounds to London. From paying overseas bills to sending money to family back home. You have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise always gives you the real exchange rate like the one you usually see on Google, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be Join millions of customers managing their money with Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Terms and Conditions apply.