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This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire? They can change everything. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes and find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn Build Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you. So so instead of sorting through applications, you can spend your time talking to candidates and finding your next great hire. With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, LinkedIn found that its users are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free@LinkedIn.com WorkLife terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is sponsored by youynext$, a podcast from NerdWallet Wealth Partners. Most financial content out there focuses on the basics budgeting, paying off debt, building an emergency fund. But maybe you're past that stage and wondering, what's next? When the question shifts from how do I save more? To what should I actually do with what I have? That's where your next dollar comes in. The podcast covers both sides of the equation building wealth and spending intentionally on what actually matters to you, your family and your future. Financial advisors from NerdWallet Wealth Partners join the show regularly to dig into the nuanced real world questions that everyday financial content just doesn't get into. If you want help getting more out of every dollar you earn, follow YourNext Dollar wherever you get your podcasts. Sponsored by youyNext Dollar, a podcast from NerdWallet Wealth Partners, an SEC registered investment advisor. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not investment tax or legal advice. This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler Smart Toilet changes that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vail Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional, it's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet is sleek, with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing, and it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high performance function. That's a long time to get it right and it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler smart toilets. Find out more@kohler.com. There's an experience that a lot of people go through at work. You start as an individual contributor, then as your company grows, you get to hire and run a team. You're in the biggest job you've ever been in and you're slightly overwhelmed all the time. Then one day your manager sits you down and says, I think we need to bring in someone who has more experience to run this area. I want you to stay and work for them. That's called layering. When your manager decides to bring in a boss for you or split your job in half, it happens to a lot of people, but somehow we don't talk about it very much. And the thing about layering is that it sucks, honestly, for everyone involved and it could go really wrong and be really messy if it's not handled thoughtfully. Recently you met my friend Don Fall. Don was Most recently the CEO of CrossFit, formerly the CEO of Athos, a wearable startup. And before that he was the head of operations at Pinterest. And before that, where I met him, he led all of operations for Facebook's users and developers. The thing is, early in Don's time at Facebook, he was layered. Sheryl Sandberg, the COO at the time, decided to split his job in two. He did not take it well initially.
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I was honestly devastated. I was like, this isn't good. This is clearly a step back. I have clearly failed. I remember Cheryl saying to me at the time, don, you will be better in. You will be better by virtue of this. You will be better at your job. You will find that this gives you the ability to focus. And honestly, at the time, I was like, that is all bs. That's what you say to the person whose job, like, stop.
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So here's the thing. Even if layering is painful and unsettling, it is often a necessary and normal part of a company's growth. But. But learning how to navigate it well, that's really hard. And it's what this episode is all about. I'm Molly Graham and this is Work Life, a show where we untangle the messy human side of work. Layering happens for a bunch of reasons. Sometimes the business is growing so fast that it needs a leader who has seen this Phase of growth before some people are strong individual contributors but weak managers, and they should return to their previous roles for the sake of everyone's sanity. Sometimes the function has simply gotten too big for one person to run. In Don's case, he was running all of operations at Facebook for multiple departments, plus sales, plus the delicate work of risk and fraud. Sheryl would personally tell you that Don was the highest performing manager in the company and his job was too big for him to do well, especially at a time when Facebook was scaling really quickly. So one day, Sheryl called Don into
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her office and at the time, Facebook is growing and scaling at an enormous rate. So, you know, going from tens of millions to hundreds of millions of users and hundreds of countries, the team has grown from 40, 50 to, I don't know, 6, 700. At this point, the scope of my role grew. So, you know, it grew to a point where, you know, managing this large global team, as far as I know, things are going great. And Cheryl, you know, I have my weekly one on one and you know, in one of those one on one, she tells me, you're doing a great job and I'm going to split your role and I'm hiring someone else. And come again, those two parts of the sentence don't seem to line up. I was honestly devastated. I was like, I, this isn't good.
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And even though he was really upset. As Cheryl continued to explain her decision, Don began to see the logic behind it.
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She had said, hey, look like the, you are doing a great job, but the company is growing faster than your ability to scale. And that's no slight against you. We will be better and you will be better from us hiring someone to take on the advertising piece. And if you had asked me at the time, across that team, how were things going, I would have probably said, look, not perfect obviously, but 8 out of 10, we're doing really well. Team's doing great. Fast forward a year or two. Looking back, we were at like a three or a four. And what, what Cheryl said was 100% right. Like, she hired in someone great. You know, fortunate for me, he and I, I learned a ton from him. We were amazing partners. And I found out that the, the time that I now had to focus on those teams that I led allowed me to grow, allowed me to be that much better and probably in the long run was the best thing for my personal career and very clearly the best thing for Facebook.
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Looking back on it now, Don would tell you that it was both the worst part of his career and he's grateful it happened.
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I would say to Cheryl now, like, you were right and thank you for that. And it was hard for me, but I appreciate the care and that circumstance. Even though it was hard, you used it as an opportunity to show that you cared about me and you cared about my career. And if you can pull that off as a leader like that is, that's really powerful stuff.
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This episode is powered by AT&T Business if you're running your own business, you know that the Sunday scaries are real. You're thinking about the invoices the client calls, the inventory, the the list that never actually ends. And honestly, we usually don't think about our Internet or our phone service until it isn't working. Sometimes a simple glitch can feel like a total catastrophe. That feeling of powerlessness when your tech fails you is the worst. It's a reminder that our connectivity isn't just a bill we pay, it's the backbone of everything we do. AT&T business gets that. They know that for a small business owner, good enough isn't good enough. You need reliability that stays in the background so you can stay in the lead. If you're tired of the friction points and just want a provider that understands the stakes, check out ATT business powered by AT&T Business. Built to Work get AT&T business@business att.com this episode is sponsored by Rula. When life gets busy, it's easy to put off caring for your mental health. We know it matters, we just don't always know where to start. Many online therapy services don't accept insurance, which can make finding the right support feel even more complicated. That's why there's Rula. Rula makes it easier to find quality mental health care that's covered by insurance. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, so the average copay is just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price point that makes sense. Sense. And Rula isn't just affordable. The experience is built around you. With thousands of therapists nationwide, Rula matches you with a licensed in network therapist based on your needs, preferences and where you live. No more long wait lists, endless searching, or insurance surprises. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.comworklife to get started. That's R U L A.com worklife. You deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget. This episode is brought to you by Framer. The more places your team has to jump between the easier it is for work to slow down. Framer solves that problem. Framer is a complete website platform, not just a builder that brings everything together in one place, helping your team move forward. What sets their platform apart is that AI agents work directly inside the canvas, the same place where the real site is designed, managed and published. Agents help draft pages, manage content, and optimize SEO so you can review, refine, and publish all without leaving the tool. Agents bring the speed and scale, and your team brings the taste, trust, judgment, and final call on what goes live. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today@framer.com worklife for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com worklife for 30 percent off framer.com worklife rules and restrictions apply. Okay, so to start, I want to talk about how to respond and handle this if it does happen to you. And then we'll talk about how to handle this. Well, if you are on the company side and have to layer someone, I have friends like Don who have been layered, stuck it out, and built long, successful careers in the same company. And I have also seen dumpster fires that spread spiral into rage, quitting. It really comes down to how it is handled. Here's Don's version of what he wishes he knew when it happened to him.
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Just knowing that someone else has gone through something like that and again, having that perspective, it normalizes it. It helps you. Like, it just makes it so much easier for folks. And you know, and then I'll, I'll try to share with them, like, look, I can't guarantee this is good for you, but here's how it ended up good for me. And then often I'll just say, look, you have a couple of choices like you're a fork in the road in your career. And I'll tell you, I felt sorry for myself. Didn't help me. You can choose to feel sorry for yourself. That will not help. You give yourself the space to work through the emotion. And then you have a decision to make. And look, I know you didn't choose this, but you can choose how you want to respond now. You can make the best of it. You can do everything in your power to make this a positive step forward in your career. Or you can leave and but don't do it initially. Don't do it out of emotion. Like be thoughtful about that decision and recognize this happens to this is not explicitly a step back this happens to so many people. And I would say, like that's the biggest mistake that people make is they, they, they make an emotional decision in the moment that leads to actually a bad outcome for themselves. And you know, it can be a real opportunity for growth if you think about it the right way.
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Just to break it apart, here are some things to consider if this happens to you. 1. This happens to almost everyone you admire. You are not alone. 2. Layering is not a demotion. Even if it feels that way, layering can feel like a demotion because something visible is changing. Scope, status, autonomy, reporting lines. It's reasonable if your ego needs a good scream or a good cry. But if this is a true layering situation, it is not a statement that you're underperforming. It's a statement that the company has grown rapidly and your role has grown with it, sometimes faster than anyone could realistically keep up with. In other words, the job got bigger, you didn't suddenly get worse. In the moment it can feel like your opportunities just got limited, like your pathways got cut off, or like there's no room for growth. But if the company is growing, then the growth will show up. As Don said, he thought his team was doing great at the time, but within 12 months he realized just how far behind he had been and how much opportunity came from getting to focus on a more narrow area. When it first happens, all you can see is what's taken away. So if you choose to stay and commit, you need to give yourself a little time to realize that every single job, including yours, will pretty rapidly be two or three or sometimes 10 times bigger than it is today. 3. Don't let your ego be the only decision maker. Don said this really well, but this is a moment when the ego gets very loud. Titles, reporting lines and optics can start to feel like the whole story. But just as dawn said, your ego is not the best part of you to make long term career decisions. The questions that matter more are things like, am I learning? Do I think I might be able to learn from the person coming in? Does this new shape of the role still excite me? Or could it? Once the initial emotion settles, is my work here actually done? Or is there more for me to do? Those answers will matter far more for your long term trajectory than anything your ego is reacting to. And you know what? Your story is just getting started. As Don said, yes, it initially felt like a demotion to him, but he went on to have an incredible five year journey at that company and he's gone on to have such an interesting career that at this point, basically no one remembers that all of this happened except him and me and, well, now all of you. But the point is that what feels like a car crash in the moment often turns out to just be a speed bump in hindsight, not always, but often. The fourth thing I want you to hear is consider giving it a real let's see how this goes window when they explain the change and offer you a new role. If the answer isn't immediately and clearly this is not for me, I am a big fan of giving it a real trial period, usually three to six months. That window gives you the time to experience experience what the new working relationship actually feels like and see whether the role creates new learning and energy or just resentment and boredom. You are not obligated to stay forever, but leaving in that first emotional moment often leads to decisions that you'll later wish you'd taken more slowly. 5. Focus on the long term story you're building, not the title Math Assuming the company continues to grow and has an interesting story, most future employers won't care about the exact title you held during this chapter. They will care about what you saw at scale, what you built, what you learned, and the complexity that you operated in. You can explain a layered role Many people have the the truth is that you're the person who decides what story you tell after you leave. You can edit what LinkedIn says to do the best job, reflecting what your actual trajectory at the company was. You can make it all make sense later. Don't sacrifice a good opportunity because you're worried about what other people will think. And lastly, if you do decide to leave, leave intentionally. Sometimes layering makes it clear that this isn't the right place or phase for you anymore. And that is okay. If they treat you poorly in this process or show you that they really don't care about you, leaving might be the right answer. But if you do leave, try to do it from a grounded place rather than a reactive one. You have spent time building relationships and a reputation at this company. This moment will not define your career unless you behave in a way that damages your credibility. So find a way to move forward with grace and know that this is just one chapter in your story. Someday, you'll be the one giving someone else advice on how to handle being layered. This message is brought to you by Apple Card, shave ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive in. There are more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2% daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more@applecard.com this episode is sponsored by Quince. Does anyone else feel like August is the Sunday of summer? It's the perfect time to hit reset before the autumn rush, and for me, that always starts with my wardrobe. Quint's proves you don't need a crowded closet to look great, you just need the right pieces. They make elevated essentials using high quality materials like European linen, organic cotton and washable silk, priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. That's because Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not markup. I just ordered their organic cotton micro rib tees and tanks in a few different colors and they're the perfect basics. Simple, soft and exactly what you want on repeat. And it's not just clothing, they have beautiful home, kitchen and bedding essentials too. Upgrade your everyday Download the Quince app for App Exclusive offers or go to quince.com worklife get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q U I N C E.com worklife this episode is brought to you by Scribe. There's often a big difference between how leaders think work happens and how it really happens day to day. Without real visibility, decisions about what to improve, Automate or hand AI end up being made based on assumptions, not data. That's exactly what Scribe was built to solve. Scribe Optimize passively captures how work happens across approved business apps and uses AI to surface workflows, inefficiencies and opportunities for improvement. With no interviews, no manual discovery and no extra work for your team, what stands out about Optymyze is its dashboard. You can immediately see which workflows are happening, which tools they span, and how much time they're taking, all based on what's happening right now, not a report from last quarter. From there, Optimize Optymyze surfaces your top issues, explains why they're happening, and delivers AI powered recommendations with estimated time savings. And it's all private. It anonymizes user data by default and never leaves your firewall. To see Optymyze in action, head to Scribe how worklife and mention worklife for a 30 day risk free trial that's scribe. H O W O R K L I F E. Okay, now let's look at this from the company side, because this is where the difference happens between layering going right versus going to absolute. If you're a leader in a company that is growing and changing quickly, I'm talking to you. The first thing to keep in mind is that layering itself is not a failure of leadership. There is nothing wrong with layering. And again, it is basically inevitable at a healthy, growing company if you're scaling quickly. Layering is just one of the core muscles you have to build, and it is possible to do it well in a way that builds trust, retention and helps the story people tell themselves about working at your company. In Don's case, I think how Cheryl handled the whole situation and the care she showed him made a massive difference to his willingness to give it a chance. Here's how he described what happened.
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One like, if you're a manager and you have someone on your team going through this, understand this is going to be a big deal for them. And so make sure that you approach that with the requisite care that they deserve. And it's about the conversation and how you tee it up and how you support them and the things that you say. And they're going to be. They're going to question their importance. They're going to question their surety and security in their role. They're going to question whether they matter to you anymore. They're going to question all these things, and you can't absolve all of them. But if you approach that conversation and the overall how you handle it the right way, you can ease a lot of that for them. And so that initial conversation is enormously important. Taking the time like Charles, insanely busy. Spending an hour with my leadership team was very costly, but she made it a priority and because she knew how important it was to me. And those things go a really long way. Thinking about, okay, in the weeks after this, how do I show this person that they can again, the things that are dang, how do I show they continue to be important? You know, if this person's concerned about their growth, do we have a plan together that we've talked about that I'm following through on? Are you checking in with that person, like, how are they doing? Again, some people will roll. Some people are going to really struggle with it. If there are other folks in the organization who can help them with it, if there are opportunities, you can give them again, that show that signal that you're important to me that you're front of mind. Are you thinking about those things? All of these things go such a long way. Honestly, at the end of the day, show them you care about them. Show them that they are still an important part of the organization. And if you can do those two things, most people get through it really well.
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So how you handle this with the person will make a huge difference, both to how they feel, but also how the people around them feel. There's a few key principles I've learned the hard way. The first is you need to get very clear on the actual problem before you layer someone. Usually when layering is coming up in conversation, it's pretty clear that something isn't working. Before you decide to layer someone, slow yourself down and review the situation. Get clear on where the real gaps are. Ask lots of questions, even the uncomfortable ones. Coach the current leader directly on those gaps so you and they are on the same page about what needs to change. At minimum, this coaching and exploration gives you a real chance to get on the same page as the current leader about the gaps you're seeing. I remember taking over operations at a company and quickly getting sucked into recruiting. So much of my time was getting dragged into hiring for one team or another. One of my rules is that your time is a compass. And when your time is being sucked down into something, it's usually a sign that either a leader is missing or the existing leader is struggling. In this case, it was both. So I was clear that we had a problem and a gap. So then I had to go talk to the existing leader and also help her see the gap. If you do this well, layering won't be a surprise. That doesn't mean it won't hurt, but it gives them time to acclimate. The next key principle is that you need to deliver the news with a concrete plan. You can absolutely influence whether someone wants to stay after being layered. And I see companies mess this up all the time. Sheryl did an amazing job with Don, but a lot of times companies and leaders screw this up. A particularly bad version recently happened to a different friend of mine. The basic message when he was layered was, we're hiring above you. What do you want to do? They literally asked him what he thought his job should be. It put all the emotional and strategic labor back on him, and it made him feel expendable and unimportant. This is so easy to avoid. Before you talk to someone, take the time to come up with four things. One, a clear explanation of the gaps you're seeing and why they led to layering two a concrete new role that matters to the company and also aligns with their goals three areas where you genuinely want their input on how to move forward and how to set the new leader up for success and 4 real incentives to stay. In other words, compensation, equity, and opportunities to learn. This kind of thoughtful, concrete plan makes people feel seen and cared about, even even in a hard moment. And to be clear, this does not all need to happen in one conversation. You should give the person a chance to digest the change before you tell them every little thing that's in your head and all your plans. Thoughtful pacing here often leads to better outcomes. But look, ultimately the most you can do is ask someone to give your plan a chance. The next principle is even if you do everything right, the person you layer might still leave and you should have a plan for that. Let's be clear. Deciding to layer someone is opening the door to them leaving. How you handle the conversations and the process makes that more or less likely, but the risk is real either way. Choosing a layer Someone is choosing to solve a problem that's more important than retaining this specific person. You may want them to stay, but you have to be honest about the trade off you're making. That means planning for the version where they leave, not just hoping that they don't. That plan doesn't have to be complicated, it just needs to answer one question. What will you do if this person quits? It might be as simple as having an interim or fractional leader ready, or temporarily folding their org under another leader while you regroup. Planning doesn't mean you want someone to leave, it just means you're not scrambling if they do. One mistake I've seen repeatedly, and it honestly feels juvenile, is leaders getting angry when they layer someone and that person quits. I saw this recently with a CEO who had repeatedly layered an operational leader in their organization, but then he got mad when the person found a COO role at a different company. I think it often happens because someone like the CEO still believes the opportunity at the company is great, and maybe it is from their perspective, but the person being layered may not experience it that way at all. Your job as a company leader isn't to assume that they'll see it the way you do. Your job is to clearly tell the story of why you believe staying is compelling. Ask them to give it a real chance, and then be open to their reaction. Speaking of which, here's my last principle to keep in mind, and it should be pretty simple. Don't do this behind their back. You don't need to have every detail figured out before you talk to the person. But once you're confident that layering is a real possibility, honesty matters more than precision. You can talk to your board or your manager, you can cautiously explore outside options. But what you can't do is pretend like everything is fine with your current leader while quietly building a different future behind their back. That kind of behavior almost always blows up in your face. Nothing demoralizes someone faster or turns a situation that could have been constructive into an angry mess than feeling that leadership has been lying to you. If you're talking to external candidates before talking to the person currently in the role, be extremely careful. Once this starts to feel real. The conversation with your current leader needs to happen before they hear it through the grapevine or infer it from your behavior. Surprise here does not just hurt feelings, it destroys trust. And not just for the person being layered, because the whole company will be watching. So ultimately, here's the thing. Even if you're layering someone, they're probably a respected part of your organization, and the way you treat them will send a message to everyone else about what they can expect when they take risks, when they need support, and most importantly, how you treat people, how they can expect to be treated as things change. So to recap, get clear on the problem, make a concrete plan, prepare for any reaction, and be honest every step of the way. That's it for this episode. Good luck out there and reach out if you have any questions about this. Our email is worklifeted.com talk to y' all next week. Work Life is a production of Ted and Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter. Banban Chang is our story editor. Mixing by Hans Dale Shih. Ted's executive producer is Daniela Balarazo. Constanza Gallardo is the executive producer for Pushkin. Special thanks to Roxanne hi Lash, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Seungma Nivong, and Ashley Murphy. If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my Substack Lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening. This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler Smart Toilet changes that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vail Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional, it's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet is sleek with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high performance function. That's a long time to get it right, and it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler smart Toilets. Find out more@kohler.com this episode is brought to you by National Business Furniture. You can find them@nbf.com what your workspace looks like says a lot about the way you work and can make a big difference when it comes to productivity. The truth is, our surroundings can impact how we think, how we feel, and who we become while we're in them. Your workspace can affect engagement, productivity, and maybe even retention. That's why getting your workspace right matters. It's proof that you value your team. National Business Furniture believes that every business deserves furniture that lasts, service that cares, and a partner that gets it all on a budget that works. That's National Business Furniture's commitment to you. Find the right furniture for you and your team@nbf.com and use the promo code POD10 to save 10%. That's nbf.com and experience the better way to buy office furniture. This episode is sponsored by Range Rover Sport. Life moves fast, and when the world around you feels like it's changing a mile a minute, you need a vehicle that helps you rise to the challenge. Dynamic by design, the Range Rover Sport combines ultimate luxury and unbridled agility for a powerful drive filled with the latest innovations to keep you and your vehicle connected. An elegant 13 inch touchscreen lets you seamlessly navigate and control vehicle systems and interior refinements like heated seating with a massage function mean comfort and luxury for every journey. Every detail of the Range Rover Sport has been engineered for impact, and its uncompromising design commands attention wherever it goes. With a variety of unique colors, interior finishes, accessories and even wheel options, the ways to personalize your Range Rover Sport are nearly unlimited. When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport Exclusive offers available now. Explore further@rangerover.com.

Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary: WorkLife with Molly Graham

Episode: Lessons: What to do when you get “layered” at work
Date: August 4, 2026
Host: Molly Graham (TED)
Guest: Don Fall (former CEO of CrossFit, ex-Facebook Ops Lead)

Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the often-unspoken workplace experience known as “layering”—when your company brings in a new manager above you, or splits your role, often during rapid growth. Host Molly Graham and guest Don Fall share personal stories, practical wisdom, and empathetic guidance—both for those who get layered and leaders who implement the change. The program’s tone is candid, validating, and pragmatic, equipping listeners to navigate a tricky career moment with grace and a long-term mindset.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is “Layering” and Why Does it Happen?

[02:18–06:15]

Definition: Layering occurs when a company brings in a manager above you, or divides your responsibilities, typically during periods of fast growth.
Common Triggers:
- Company scaling faster than employees’ ability to “scale with it.”
- Role becomes too large for one person.
- Need for new expertise or experience at the next growth phase.
Emotional Impact: Almost always feels like a setback in the moment—even for high performers.

“You’re doing a great job and I’m going to split your role and I’m hiring someone else… Come again? Those two parts of the sentence don’t seem to line up.”
— Don Fall ([06:15–07:03])

2. Don Fall’s Experience Being Layered at Facebook

[04:32–08:56]

Initial Reaction: Devastation and self-doubt. Felt like failure.
Sheryl Sandberg’s Rationale: Company (Facebook) growing faster than any one leader could keep up with—it wasn’t about Don’s performance.
Outcome: After the initial sting, Don thrived under the new structure, focusing on a more manageable scope, partnering with and learning from the new leader.

“I remember Cheryl saying at the time, ‘Don, you will be better in, you will be better by virtue of this. You will be better at your job.’ And honestly, at the time, I was like, that is all BS.”
— Don Fall ([04:32–04:58])

"Fast forward a year or two… we were at like a three or a four. And what Cheryl said was 100% right... The time that I now had to focus on those teams that I led allowed me to grow, allowed me to be that much better and probably in the long run was the best thing for my personal career and very clearly the best thing for Facebook.”
— Don Fall ([07:11–08:17])

3. Emotional and Career Impact

[08:17–14:27]

Layering can feel like a demotion, but it rarely is one.
Focusing on what’s “taken away” is a natural initial response; it often becomes clear in hindsight that the change led to expanded opportunities.
Don’s perspective in hindsight: Grateful it happened, credits Sheryl’s empathy for softening the blow and setting him up for future success.
Key Decision Point for the Employee:
- Recognize this happens to almost everyone.
- Don’t react emotionally or impulsively—consider staying for a 3–6 month trial.
- Focus on learning, growth, and long-term story, not just title or optics.
- If you do leave, make it an intentional, not reactive, choice.

“Don’t let your ego be the only decision maker. This is a moment when the ego gets very loud… but your ego is not the best part of you to make long term career decisions.”
— Molly Graham ([14:27–15:09])

"I felt sorry for myself. Didn’t help me. ... Don’t do it [quit] out of emotion. Be thoughtful about that decision.”
— Don Fall ([12:56–13:46])

4. Concrete Advice for Employees Who Get Layered

[14:27–20:30]

Five Actionable Insights:
1. You’re Not Alone: This happens to most people you look up to.
2. It’s Not a Demotion (Usually): More about company’s growth outpacing your current experience.
3. Don’t Let Ego Drive: Titles and reporting lines aren’t the most important part of your story.
4. Trial Period: Give the new arrangement a real chance (3–6 months).
5. Career Story: Future employers won’t care as much about your title as you think—they’ll care about your achievements and growth.
Leaving Gracefully: If you must leave, do so on your terms and without burning bridges.

5. How Leaders and Companies Should Layer—Best Practices

[23:43–29:00]

It’s Not a Failure of Leadership: Layering is normal and inevitable in scaling companies.
Empathy Matters: Approach conversations with care; it's a “big deal” for the person affected.
Clear Identification of the Problem: Before layering, get specific about the root cause and be honest with the employee.
Concrete Plan: Don’t just drop the news—have a clear new role, explain the logic, offer input opportunities, and provide real incentives to stay.
Thoughtful Pacing: Give people time to absorb the change before unloading lots of details.
Prepare for All Outcomes: Expect and plan for the possibility of departures.

“If you’re a manager and you have someone on your team going through this, understand this is going to be a big deal for them. … That initial conversation is enormously important.”
— Don Fall ([24:33–25:11])

Honesty is Essential: Don’t hide your intentions or the process from the affected employee—surprise ruins trust.

"Honesty matters more than precision. … If you’re talking to external candidates before talking to the person currently in the role, be extremely careful."
— Molly Graham ([28:56–29:35])

6. Organizational Ripple Effects

[29:35–End]

The way you handle “layering” sends an important message across the company about trust, transparency, and how people are valued.
The story isn’t just about one employee—the process becomes part of your company narrative.

Notable Quotes

Don Fall (on mindset after being layered):
"You can choose how you want to respond now. You can make the best of it… or you can leave. But don’t do it out of emotion." ([12:56–13:46])
Molly Graham (on broader implications):
"Even if you’re layering someone, they’re probably a respected part of your org, and the way you treat them will send a message to everyone else about what they can expect when they take risks, when they need support, and most importantly, how you treat people." ([29:35–30:15])

Timestamps of Important Segments

00:00–02:18 — Episode setup & introduction to “layering”
02:18–06:15 — Why layering happens; common triggers in growing companies
06:15–08:56 — Don Fall’s personal story of being layered at Facebook
08:56–14:27 — Emotional impact and framing the experience constructively
14:27–20:30 — Actionable advice for employees who get layered
23:43–29:35 — How leaders should handle layering situations
29:35–End — Summary, company-wide implications, wrap-up

Memorable Moments

Don’s disbelief at hearing he was being layered while being told he was a top performer. ([06:15])
Molly and Don’s frank discussion about ego, feelings of betrayal, and the importance of taking the long view. ([12:56–14:27])
Concrete frameworks and “trial window” advice for handling a new reality at work.
Candid acknowledgment that many founders, operators, and successful execs have been layered—removing the stigma.

Key Takeaways

Layering is a normal, if painful, milestone in growing organizations.
How you handle being layered—or layering someone else—will shape careers and cultures more than the org chart ever could.
Responding with empathy, transparency, and intention sets up the best possible outcomes.

For further discussion, join Molly on Substack: Lessons.

Contact: worklifeted.com

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Transcript13 lines

[00:01]
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This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money and momentum. A good hire? They can change everything. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes and find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn Build Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you. So so instead of sorting through applications, you can spend your time talking to candidates and finding your next great hire. With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, LinkedIn found that its users are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free@LinkedIn.com WorkLife terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is sponsored by youynext$, a podcast from NerdWallet Wealth Partners. Most financial content out there focuses on the basics budgeting, paying off debt, building an emergency fund. But maybe you're past that stage and wondering, what's next? When the question shifts from how do I save more? To what should I actually do with what I have? That's where your next dollar comes in. The podcast covers both sides of the equation building wealth and spending intentionally on what actually matters to you, your family and your future. Financial advisors from NerdWallet Wealth Partners join the show regularly to dig into the nuanced real world questions that everyday financial content just doesn't get into. If you want help getting more out of every dollar you earn, follow YourNext Dollar wherever you get your podcasts. Sponsored by youyNext Dollar, a podcast from NerdWallet Wealth Partners, an SEC registered investment advisor. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not investment tax or legal advice. This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler Smart Toilet changes that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vail Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional, it's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet is sleek, with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing, and it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. Kohler has been pushing these boundaries for over 150 years, mastering that balance of stunning form and high performance function. That's a long time to get it right and it shows in every detail. Experience the difference of Kohler smart toilets. Find out more@kohler.com. There's an experience that a lot of people go through at work. You start as an individual contributor, then as your company grows, you get to hire and run a team. You're in the biggest job you've ever been in and you're slightly overwhelmed all the time. Then one day your manager sits you down and says, I think we need to bring in someone who has more experience to run this area. I want you to stay and work for them. That's called layering. When your manager decides to bring in a boss for you or split your job in half, it happens to a lot of people, but somehow we don't talk about it very much. And the thing about layering is that it sucks, honestly, for everyone involved and it could go really wrong and be really messy if it's not handled thoughtfully. Recently you met my friend Don Fall. Don was Most recently the CEO of CrossFit, formerly the CEO of Athos, a wearable startup. And before that he was the head of operations at Pinterest. And before that, where I met him, he led all of operations for Facebook's users and developers. The thing is, early in Don's time at Facebook, he was layered. Sheryl Sandberg, the COO at the time, decided to split his job in two. He did not take it well initially.
[04:33]
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I was honestly devastated. I was like, this isn't good. This is clearly a step back. I have clearly failed. I remember Cheryl saying to me at the time, don, you will be better in. You will be better by virtue of this. You will be better at your job. You will find that this gives you the ability to focus. And honestly, at the time, I was like, that is all bs. That's what you say to the person whose job, like, stop.
[04:59]
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So here's the thing. Even if layering is painful and unsettling, it is often a necessary and normal part of a company's growth. But. But learning how to navigate it well, that's really hard. And it's what this episode is all about. I'm Molly Graham and this is Work Life, a show where we untangle the messy human side of work. Layering happens for a bunch of reasons. Sometimes the business is growing so fast that it needs a leader who has seen this Phase of growth before some people are strong individual contributors but weak managers, and they should return to their previous roles for the sake of everyone's sanity. Sometimes the function has simply gotten too big for one person to run. In Don's case, he was running all of operations at Facebook for multiple departments, plus sales, plus the delicate work of risk and fraud. Sheryl would personally tell you that Don was the highest performing manager in the company and his job was too big for him to do well, especially at a time when Facebook was scaling really quickly. So one day, Sheryl called Don into
[06:16]
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her office and at the time, Facebook is growing and scaling at an enormous rate. So, you know, going from tens of millions to hundreds of millions of users and hundreds of countries, the team has grown from 40, 50 to, I don't know, 6, 700. At this point, the scope of my role grew. So, you know, it grew to a point where, you know, managing this large global team, as far as I know, things are going great. And Cheryl, you know, I have my weekly one on one and you know, in one of those one on one, she tells me, you're doing a great job and I'm going to split your role and I'm hiring someone else. And come again, those two parts of the sentence don't seem to line up. I was honestly devastated. I was like, I, this isn't good.
[07:04]
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And even though he was really upset. As Cheryl continued to explain her decision, Don began to see the logic behind it.
[07:11]
B
She had said, hey, look like the, you are doing a great job, but the company is growing faster than your ability to scale. And that's no slight against you. We will be better and you will be better from us hiring someone to take on the advertising piece. And if you had asked me at the time, across that team, how were things going, I would have probably said, look, not perfect obviously, but 8 out of 10, we're doing really well. Team's doing great. Fast forward a year or two. Looking back, we were at like a three or a four. And what, what Cheryl said was 100% right. Like, she hired in someone great. You know, fortunate for me, he and I, I learned a ton from him. We were amazing partners. And I found out that the, the time that I now had to focus on those teams that I led allowed me to grow, allowed me to be that much better and probably in the long run was the best thing for my personal career and very clearly the best thing for Facebook.
[08:17]
A
Looking back on it now, Don would tell you that it was both the worst part of his career and he's grateful it happened.
[08:27]
B
I would say to Cheryl now, like, you were right and thank you for that. And it was hard for me, but I appreciate the care and that circumstance. Even though it was hard, you used it as an opportunity to show that you cared about me and you cared about my career. And if you can pull that off as a leader like that is, that's really powerful stuff.
[08:56]
A
This episode is powered by AT&T Business if you're running your own business, you know that the Sunday scaries are real. You're thinking about the invoices the client calls, the inventory, the the list that never actually ends. And honestly, we usually don't think about our Internet or our phone service until it isn't working. Sometimes a simple glitch can feel like a total catastrophe. That feeling of powerlessness when your tech fails you is the worst. It's a reminder that our connectivity isn't just a bill we pay, it's the backbone of everything we do. AT&T business gets that. They know that for a small business owner, good enough isn't good enough. You need reliability that stays in the background so you can stay in the lead. If you're tired of the friction points and just want a provider that understands the stakes, check out ATT business powered by AT&T Business. Built to Work get AT&T business@business att.com this episode is sponsored by Rula. When life gets busy, it's easy to put off caring for your mental health. We know it matters, we just don't always know where to start. Many online therapy services don't accept insurance, which can make finding the right support feel even more complicated. That's why there's Rula. Rula makes it easier to find quality mental health care that's covered by insurance. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, so the average copay is just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price point that makes sense. Sense. And Rula isn't just affordable. The experience is built around you. With thousands of therapists nationwide, Rula matches you with a licensed in network therapist based on your needs, preferences and where you live. No more long wait lists, endless searching, or insurance surprises. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.comworklife to get started. That's R U L A.com worklife. You deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget. This episode is brought to you by Framer. The more places your team has to jump between the easier it is for work to slow down. Framer solves that problem. Framer is a complete website platform, not just a builder that brings everything together in one place, helping your team move forward. What sets their platform apart is that AI agents work directly inside the canvas, the same place where the real site is designed, managed and published. Agents help draft pages, manage content, and optimize SEO so you can review, refine, and publish all without leaving the tool. Agents bring the speed and scale, and your team brings the taste, trust, judgment, and final call on what goes live. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today@framer.com worklife for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com worklife for 30 percent off framer.com worklife rules and restrictions apply. Okay, so to start, I want to talk about how to respond and handle this if it does happen to you. And then we'll talk about how to handle this. Well, if you are on the company side and have to layer someone, I have friends like Don who have been layered, stuck it out, and built long, successful careers in the same company. And I have also seen dumpster fires that spread spiral into rage, quitting. It really comes down to how it is handled. Here's Don's version of what he wishes he knew when it happened to him.
[12:57]
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Just knowing that someone else has gone through something like that and again, having that perspective, it normalizes it. It helps you. Like, it just makes it so much easier for folks. And you know, and then I'll, I'll try to share with them, like, look, I can't guarantee this is good for you, but here's how it ended up good for me. And then often I'll just say, look, you have a couple of choices like you're a fork in the road in your career. And I'll tell you, I felt sorry for myself. Didn't help me. You can choose to feel sorry for yourself. That will not help. You give yourself the space to work through the emotion. And then you have a decision to make. And look, I know you didn't choose this, but you can choose how you want to respond now. You can make the best of it. You can do everything in your power to make this a positive step forward in your career. Or you can leave and but don't do it initially. Don't do it out of emotion. Like be thoughtful about that decision and recognize this happens to this is not explicitly a step back this happens to so many people. And I would say, like that's the biggest mistake that people make is they, they, they make an emotional decision in the moment that leads to actually a bad outcome for themselves. And you know, it can be a real opportunity for growth if you think about it the right way.
[14:27]
A
Just to break it apart, here are some things to consider if this happens to you. 1. This happens to almost everyone you admire. You are not alone. 2. Layering is not a demotion. Even if it feels that way, layering can feel like a demotion because something visible is changing. Scope, status, autonomy, reporting lines. It's reasonable if your ego needs a good scream or a good cry. But if this is a true layering situation, it is not a statement that you're underperforming. It's a statement that the company has grown rapidly and your role has grown with it, sometimes faster than anyone could realistically keep up with. In other words, the job got bigger, you didn't suddenly get worse. In the moment it can feel like your opportunities just got limited, like your pathways got cut off, or like there's no room for growth. But if the company is growing, then the growth will show up. As Don said, he thought his team was doing great at the time, but within 12 months he realized just how far behind he had been and how much opportunity came from getting to focus on a more narrow area. When it first happens, all you can see is what's taken away. So if you choose to stay and commit, you need to give yourself a little time to realize that every single job, including yours, will pretty rapidly be two or three or sometimes 10 times bigger than it is today. 3. Don't let your ego be the only decision maker. Don said this really well, but this is a moment when the ego gets very loud. Titles, reporting lines and optics can start to feel like the whole story. But just as dawn said, your ego is not the best part of you to make long term career decisions. The questions that matter more are things like, am I learning? Do I think I might be able to learn from the person coming in? Does this new shape of the role still excite me? Or could it? Once the initial emotion settles, is my work here actually done? Or is there more for me to do? Those answers will matter far more for your long term trajectory than anything your ego is reacting to. And you know what? Your story is just getting started. As Don said, yes, it initially felt like a demotion to him, but he went on to have an incredible five year journey at that company and he's gone on to have such an interesting career that at this point, basically no one remembers that all of this happened except him and me and, well, now all of you. But the point is that what feels like a car crash in the moment often turns out to just be a speed bump in hindsight, not always, but often. The fourth thing I want you to hear is consider giving it a real let's see how this goes window when they explain the change and offer you a new role. If the answer isn't immediately and clearly this is not for me, I am a big fan of giving it a real trial period, usually three to six months. That window gives you the time to experience experience what the new working relationship actually feels like and see whether the role creates new learning and energy or just resentment and boredom. You are not obligated to stay forever, but leaving in that first emotional moment often leads to decisions that you'll later wish you'd taken more slowly. 5. Focus on the long term story you're building, not the title Math Assuming the company continues to grow and has an interesting story, most future employers won't care about the exact title you held during this chapter. They will care about what you saw at scale, what you built, what you learned, and the complexity that you operated in. You can explain a layered role Many people have the the truth is that you're the person who decides what story you tell after you leave. You can edit what LinkedIn says to do the best job, reflecting what your actual trajectory at the company was. You can make it all make sense later. Don't sacrifice a good opportunity because you're worried about what other people will think. And lastly, if you do decide to leave, leave intentionally. Sometimes layering makes it clear that this isn't the right place or phase for you anymore. And that is okay. If they treat you poorly in this process or show you that they really don't care about you, leaving might be the right answer. But if you do leave, try to do it from a grounded place rather than a reactive one. You have spent time building relationships and a reputation at this company. This moment will not define your career unless you behave in a way that damages your credibility. So find a way to move forward with grace and know that this is just one chapter in your story. Someday, you'll be the one giving someone else advice on how to handle being layered. This message is brought to you by Apple Card, shave ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive in. There are more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2% daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more@applecard.com this episode is sponsored by Quince. Does anyone else feel like August is the Sunday of summer? It's the perfect time to hit reset before the autumn rush, and for me, that always starts with my wardrobe. Quint's proves you don't need a crowded closet to look great, you just need the right pieces. They make elevated essentials using high quality materials like European linen, organic cotton and washable silk, priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. That's because Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not markup. I just ordered their organic cotton micro rib tees and tanks in a few different colors and they're the perfect basics. Simple, soft and exactly what you want on repeat. And it's not just clothing, they have beautiful home, kitchen and bedding essentials too. Upgrade your everyday Download the Quince app for App Exclusive offers or go to quince.com worklife get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q U I N C E.com worklife this episode is brought to you by Scribe. There's often a big difference between how leaders think work happens and how it really happens day to day. Without real visibility, decisions about what to improve, Automate or hand AI end up being made based on assumptions, not data. That's exactly what Scribe was built to solve. Scribe Optimize passively captures how work happens across approved business apps and uses AI to surface workflows, inefficiencies and opportunities for improvement. With no interviews, no manual discovery and no extra work for your team, what stands out about Optymyze is its dashboard. You can immediately see which workflows are happening, which tools they span, and how much time they're taking, all based on what's happening right now, not a report from last quarter. From there, Optimize Optymyze surfaces your top issues, explains why they're happening, and delivers AI powered recommendations with estimated time savings. And it's all private. It anonymizes user data by default and never leaves your firewall. To see Optymyze in action, head to Scribe how worklife and mention worklife for a 30 day risk free trial that's scribe. H O W O R K L I F E. Okay, now let's look at this from the company side, because this is where the difference happens between layering going right versus going to absolute. If you're a leader in a company that is growing and changing quickly, I'm talking to you. The first thing to keep in mind is that layering itself is not a failure of leadership. There is nothing wrong with layering. And again, it is basically inevitable at a healthy, growing company if you're scaling quickly. Layering is just one of the core muscles you have to build, and it is possible to do it well in a way that builds trust, retention and helps the story people tell themselves about working at your company. In Don's case, I think how Cheryl handled the whole situation and the care she showed him made a massive difference to his willingness to give it a chance. Here's how he described what happened.
[24:33]
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One like, if you're a manager and you have someone on your team going through this, understand this is going to be a big deal for them. And so make sure that you approach that with the requisite care that they deserve. And it's about the conversation and how you tee it up and how you support them and the things that you say. And they're going to be. They're going to question their importance. They're going to question their surety and security in their role. They're going to question whether they matter to you anymore. They're going to question all these things, and you can't absolve all of them. But if you approach that conversation and the overall how you handle it the right way, you can ease a lot of that for them. And so that initial conversation is enormously important. Taking the time like Charles, insanely busy. Spending an hour with my leadership team was very costly, but she made it a priority and because she knew how important it was to me. And those things go a really long way. Thinking about, okay, in the weeks after this, how do I show this person that they can again, the things that are dang, how do I show they continue to be important? You know, if this person's concerned about their growth, do we have a plan together that we've talked about that I'm following through on? Are you checking in with that person, like, how are they doing? Again, some people will roll. Some people are going to really struggle with it. If there are other folks in the organization who can help them with it, if there are opportunities, you can give them again, that show that signal that you're important to me that you're front of mind. Are you thinking about those things? All of these things go such a long way. Honestly, at the end of the day, show them you care about them. Show them that they are still an important part of the organization. And if you can do those two things, most people get through it really well.
[26:26]
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So how you handle this with the person will make a huge difference, both to how they feel, but also how the people around them feel. There's a few key principles I've learned the hard way. The first is you need to get very clear on the actual problem before you layer someone. Usually when layering is coming up in conversation, it's pretty clear that something isn't working. Before you decide to layer someone, slow yourself down and review the situation. Get clear on where the real gaps are. Ask lots of questions, even the uncomfortable ones. Coach the current leader directly on those gaps so you and they are on the same page about what needs to change. At minimum, this coaching and exploration gives you a real chance to get on the same page as the current leader about the gaps you're seeing. I remember taking over operations at a company and quickly getting sucked into recruiting. So much of my time was getting dragged into hiring for one team or another. One of my rules is that your time is a compass. And when your time is being sucked down into something, it's usually a sign that either a leader is missing or the existing leader is struggling. In this case, it was both. So I was clear that we had a problem and a gap. So then I had to go talk to the existing leader and also help her see the gap. If you do this well, layering won't be a surprise. That doesn't mean it won't hurt, but it gives them time to acclimate. The next key principle is that you need to deliver the news with a concrete plan. You can absolutely influence whether someone wants to stay after being layered. And I see companies mess this up all the time. Sheryl did an amazing job with Don, but a lot of times companies and leaders screw this up. A particularly bad version recently happened to a different friend of mine. The basic message when he was layered was, we're hiring above you. What do you want to do? They literally asked him what he thought his job should be. It put all the emotional and strategic labor back on him, and it made him feel expendable and unimportant. This is so easy to avoid. Before you talk to someone, take the time to come up with four things. One, a clear explanation of the gaps you're seeing and why they led to layering two a concrete new role that matters to the company and also aligns with their goals three areas where you genuinely want their input on how to move forward and how to set the new leader up for success and 4 real incentives to stay. In other words, compensation, equity, and opportunities to learn. This kind of thoughtful, concrete plan makes people feel seen and cared about, even even in a hard moment. And to be clear, this does not all need to happen in one conversation. You should give the person a chance to digest the change before you tell them every little thing that's in your head and all your plans. Thoughtful pacing here often leads to better outcomes. But look, ultimately the most you can do is ask someone to give your plan a chance. The next principle is even if you do everything right, the person you layer might still leave and you should have a plan for that. Let's be clear. Deciding to layer someone is opening the door to them leaving. How you handle the conversations and the process makes that more or less likely, but the risk is real either way. Choosing a layer Someone is choosing to solve a problem that's more important than retaining this specific person. You may want them to stay, but you have to be honest about the trade off you're making. That means planning for the version where they leave, not just hoping that they don't. That plan doesn't have to be complicated, it just needs to answer one question. What will you do if this person quits? It might be as simple as having an interim or fractional leader ready, or temporarily folding their org under another leader while you regroup. Planning doesn't mean you want someone to leave, it just means you're not scrambling if they do. One mistake I've seen repeatedly, and it honestly feels juvenile, is leaders getting angry when they layer someone and that person quits. I saw this recently with a CEO who had repeatedly layered an operational leader in their organization, but then he got mad when the person found a COO role at a different company. I think it often happens because someone like the CEO still believes the opportunity at the company is great, and maybe it is from their perspective, but the person being layered may not experience it that way at all. Your job as a company leader isn't to assume that they'll see it the way you do. Your job is to clearly tell the story of why you believe staying is compelling. Ask them to give it a real chance, and then be open to their reaction. Speaking of which, here's my last principle to keep in mind, and it should be pretty simple. Don't do this behind their back. You don't need to have every detail figured out before you talk to the person. But once you're confident that layering is a real possibility, honesty matters more than precision. You can talk to your board or your manager, you can cautiously explore outside options. But what you can't do is pretend like everything is fine with your current leader while quietly building a different future behind their back. That kind of behavior almost always blows up in your face. Nothing demoralizes someone faster or turns a situation that could have been constructive into an angry mess than feeling that leadership has been lying to you. If you're talking to external candidates before talking to the person currently in the role, be extremely careful. Once this starts to feel real. The conversation with your current leader needs to happen before they hear it through the grapevine or infer it from your behavior. Surprise here does not just hurt feelings, it destroys trust. And not just for the person being layered, because the whole company will be watching. So ultimately, here's the thing. Even if you're layering someone, they're probably a respected part of your organization, and the way you treat them will send a message to everyone else about what they can expect when they take risks, when they need support, and most importantly, how you treat people, how they can expect to be treated as things change. So to recap, get clear on the problem, make a concrete plan, prepare for any reaction, and be honest every step of the way. That's it for this episode. Good luck out there and reach out if you have any questions about this. Our email is worklifeted.com talk to y' all next week. Work Life is a production of Ted and Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter. Banban Chang is our story editor. Mixing by Hans Dale Shih. Ted's executive producer is Daniela Balarazo. Constanza Gallardo is the executive producer for Pushkin. Special thanks to Roxanne hi Lash, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Seungma Nivong, and Ashley Murphy. If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my Substack Lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening. This episode is sponsored by Kohler Smart Toilets. The objects we interact with most are often the ones we notice least. Kohler Smart Toilet changes that assumption. What if the most overlooked space in your home could become the most considered? Their Vail Smart Toilet is a sculptural silhouette that isn't just intentional, it's a philosophy that design changes everything. The Kohler Vail Smart Toilet is sleek with a rounded shape that's more like architecture than just plumbing. And it goes beyond looks. The touchscreen controls and customizable cleansing features offer a level of comfort and cleanliness that exceed expectations. It's all about elevating those ordinary daily rituals into something extraordinary through thoughtful design. 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