ReThinking: Building confidence with mentalist Oz Pearlman

Summary

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WorkLife with Adam Grant

Episode: ReThinking – Building Confidence with Mentalist Oz Perlman

Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Adam Grant | Guest: Oz Perlman

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Episode Overview

In this engaging live episode, organizational psychologist Adam Grant sits down with world-renowned mentalist Oz Perlman to uncover the psychology behind confidence, risk-taking, creating memorable moments, and reading people. More than magic, Oz shares practical lessons for everyday life—how to connect, overcome rejection, and build a career on understanding others. The conversation, peppered with demonstrations of Oz’s mentalism, offers actionable strategies for personal and professional growth.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mentalism Demystified: Not Mind Reading, But Mind Understanding

[01:56 – 04:23]

• Oz clarifies his abilities:

  "I cannot read people's minds." (Oz Perlman, 01:58)

  • Mentalism is rooted in psychology, intuition, and honed observational skills—not supernatural powers.
• Why audiences believe:

  "People want to believe it's something more than what they see...even the most scientific person there is, has some level of wanting to know what is possible." (Oz Perlman, 02:02)

• Demonstrates a trick live:
  • Involves audience participation to reveal a name someone is thinking—establishes Oz’s showmanship and skill at connecting with people.
  • Builds suspense, then nails the revelation for a memorable moment.

2. From Wall Street to Center Stage: Taking Risks and Building Confidence

[04:44 – 07:54]

• Origins:
  • Oz and Adam share a Detroit suburb and magic shop upbringing but met only as adults.
  • Discussion of embracing "nerd levels" and the mindset needed to stand out (waterproof cards in the shower, 05:36).
• Secrets and Skills:

  "I'm not trying to create a puzzle that's trying to be figured out. I'm rather trying to show a skill that can be displayed..." (Oz Perlman, 06:08)

  • Differentiation between mentalism (performed with self as the prop) and other magic (performed with objects).
• Courage to take risks:

  "You get bigger rewards. That's truly been a secret to my success—the fact that I'm willing to take bigger swings than almost anybody else in my field." (Oz Perlman, 07:27)

  • Planning for failure and improvising when things go awry is central to confidence.

3. Memorable Moments: The Art of Creating Experiences

[09:08 – 11:23]

• Entertainment vs. Impact:

  "Pure entertainment is like watching a movie at a theater...it was entertaining, but it's not memorable. I create memorable moments." (Oz Perlman, 09:18)

  • Focus on creating stories that linger—people remember what they recount.
• Reading and Empathizing:
  • Mentalism is about empathy—prioritizing the audience's experience above personal display.

  "The more you make the focus on the other person in life, the more success you will attain." (Oz Perlman, 13:15)

  • Example: Adapting tricks, pitching ideas to TV by focusing on the network's audience needs, not himself.

4. Connecting with People: Psychological Insights

[14:55 – 19:33]

• Making others feel special:
  • Best conversationalists are those most interested in others.

  "The person who I find the most appealing and most interesting is the person who's the most interested." (Oz Perlman, 13:38)

• Cognitive Science Tie-in:
  • Adam references the "joy of talking" experiment (Jamie Pennebaker)—people enjoy and remember those who listen to them.
• Reading social cues:
  • Oz learned, as a young magician in restaurants, to eliminate customer resistance quickly via credibility-building statements and non-intrusive body language.
  • Key: The first three seconds are critical to lower defenses and set the tone.
• Actionable Strategy:

  "Ask yourself, what does someone think about you when they meet you? ... I realized really early on that ... my job became, how do I eliminate every point of resistance in their mind by the time I get to the table...?" (Oz Perlman, 18:31)

5. Vulnerability and Authenticity: The Antidote to Autopilot

[23:27 – 25:23]

• Breaking Autopilot:
  • Use vulnerability to connect ("I'm nervous, are you?")—it disrupts routines and encourages genuine interaction.

  "What can you do to make the elevator get stuck when you're with someone else, how do you make them suddenly connect with you..." (Oz Perlman, 24:00)

6. Overcoming Rejection: Cognitive Strategies for Resilience

[25:29 – 30:00]

• Reframing rejection:
  • Don't internalize others' reactions—attribute them to external circumstances.

  "If they were nasty, I'd go, I bet their kid was sick...I started making it not about me." (Oz Perlman, 26:12)

  • Oz separated his core identity from his role as a performer—critical for resilience.
• Self-distancing and emotional regulation:
  • Adam notes these are textbook psychology techniques—even if Oz learned them by instinct.
  • Practical tool: Setting an alarm for follow-up—the anxiety before an unpleasant task fades after it's done.

  "If you could find a way to fast forward your feelings and feel the way you're going to in 24 hours now, you don't dread it anymore...That is a way you can trick your mind." (Oz Perlman, 29:09)

7. Lightning Round: Personal Lessons and Favorites

[33:20 – 36:41]

• Ultra-marathoning:
  • Oz ran 153 miles nearly non-stop.

  "Ultra marathoning makes everything else in life easier...once I get through it, it's incredible." (Oz Perlman, 33:41)

• Worst career advice:

  "Listening to haters." (Oz Perlman, 34:32)

• Best reason to leave a secure job:

  "You only live once. If you have a passion, go for it." (Oz Perlman, 34:37)

• Most influential magician:

  "David Blaine." (Oz Perlman, 34:56)

• Favorite mentalist:

  "Derren Brown. He's kind of the OG." (Oz Perlman, 35:09)

8. Audience Q&A: Risks, Resilience, and Being Memorable

[36:02 – 37:30]

• Hardest part of the craft:

  "Being okay with tremendous risk." (Oz Perlman, 35:34)

• When backup plans fail:

  "Get more time if possible...as long as there's more runway." (Oz Perlman, 35:39)

• Advice for career growth:
  • Find memorable, value-adding ways to build relationships and stand out.

  "Find some way to help them that no one else has offered...Try to find what can you do to be memorable." (Oz Perlman, 36:41)

9. Final Demonstration: Another Signature Trick

[37:35 – 40:30]

• Oz performs a final interactive mentalism routine, demonstrating acute observation, psychological influence, and finely tuned intuition.

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Notable Quotes

• On Confidence and Risk:

  "The fact that I'm willing to take bigger swings than almost anybody else in my field. And so you get bigger rewards." (Oz Perlman, 07:27)

• On Social Connection:

  "The person who I find the most appealing and most interesting is the person who's the most interested." (Oz Perlman, 13:38)

• On Overcoming Rejection:

  "I started to create this excuse in my mind where I blame shifted ... if they didn't like me, I said, they don't know Oz Perlman. ... So I didn't internalize the hit." (Oz Perlman, 26:12)

• On Emotional Regulation:

  "If you could find a way to fast forward your feelings and feel the way you're going to in 24 hours now, you don't dread it anymore." (Oz Perlman, 29:09)

• On Career Fulfillment:

  "You only live once. If you have a passion, go for it." (Oz Perlman, 34:37)

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• First audience mind-reading trick: [03:24 – 04:23]
• Discussion on planning for failure in performance: [07:27 – 09:04]
• Oz describing getting his first magic job at 14 and learning rejection: [15:49 – 19:33]
• Lightning round (ultra marathoning, worst advice, best reason for career change): [33:20 – 36:41]
• Final mentalism demonstration: [37:35 – 40:30]

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Practical Takeaways

• Confidence is built by planning for—and learning from—failure.
• Memorability requires empathy: focus on your audience, not yourself.
• Embrace vulnerability to foster authentic connections.
• Reframe rejection as situational, not personal; use self-distancing techniques.
• Take risks, but prepare with back-up plans and adaptability.
• Resilience can be trained through repeated exposure and cognitive reframing.

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Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, playful, and deeply insightful—mixing expert discussion with banter and audience interaction. Adam and Oz switch effortlessly between psychology, personal stories, and mentalism, maintaining a spirit of curiosity and generosity.

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This episode offers a meaningful look at the intersection of psychology and performance, delivering tangible advice on confidence, connection, and resilience—sprinkled with pure wonder.

Transcript

[Adam Grant]

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[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Let's just get the record straight. Can you read people's minds?

[Oz Perlman]

I cannot read people's minds.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Why do people want to believe this?

[Oz Perlman]

Because people want to believe it's something more than what they see. Right? Science is amazing, but everybody, even the most scientific person there is, has some level of wanting to know what is possible.

[Adam Grant]

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the Science of what Makes Us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. When Oz Perlman left a career on Wall street to become a magician and mentalist, he couldn't have known where that path would lead. But since making the finals of America's got talent, he's performed for the likes of Steven Spielberg, Katy Perry, Tom Brady, and Barack Obama. I invited Oze to join me on stage in the authors at Wharton series to talk about his work and to see him work his magic up close and personal.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So given that there are fans in the audience, I know you wanted to save performing until the very end, but I'm not that patient.

[Oz Perlman]

He said, we gotta tee something up. We gotta see if you're any good. How about this? Who wants in? Who wants in on this right now? All right, let's give this a shot. You know what? Let's hit everybody.

[Adam Grant]

To pick someone for his trick, he asked me to throw a frisbee into the crowd.

[Oz Perlman]

Everyone put your hands up in defensive posture. Adam, let her rip. Toss. Who's got it?

[Adam Grant]

Then Oz asked them to think of someone who they trust.

[Oz Perlman]

I think I'm inside your head.

[Adam Grant]

And he gets to work guessing that person's name.

[Oz Perlman]

Think of the third letter of the name. Fourth letter, fifth letter, sixth letter, seventh letter, eighth letter, ninth letter, tenth letter, eleventh letter. All you're looking at are, like, how long is this name? You panicked. You ran out of letters at a certain point. The eighth letter is when you panicked because there is no eighth letter. The name is seven letters long, isn't it?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Oz Perlman]

Yeah. It doesn't say world's greatest mentalist on the book for no reason.

[Adam Grant]

Oze is my favorite mentalist. He's also a very good showman and a master of building suspense.

[Oz Perlman]

This is a struggle.

[Adam Grant]

He writes a name on a small whiteboard in his lap and holds it up.

[Oz Perlman]

If everyone can see what I wrote down, say, upenn, tell us all, who did you think of? What's this person's first name that you trust?

[Sponsor Voice/Announcer 1]

Kinship.

[Oz Perlman]

Kinship.

[Adam Grant]

And the world's greatest mentalist does it again. If you're a longtime listener, you might know that I grew up doing magic in the same Detroit suburb as O's. We bought supplies at the same magic shop. Our swim teams competed against each other, and we had mutual friends.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

But we didn't meet until a few years ago.

[Adam Grant]

Since then, we've been at a bunch of events together, and it's clear there's a lot to learn from him about taking risks, making memorable moments, and tuning into people.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

You have been described as the world's greatest mentalist. What am I gonna say next?

[Oz Perlman]

Even I don't know what Adam Grant is going to say next.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I didn't Think it would get us anywhere, but I felt like I had to try.

[Oz Perlman]

You had to.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So I have to start by asking you if you've been avoiding me.

[Oz Perlman]

I have not been avoiding you.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Well, I beg to differ, because I have a very vivid memory of being 15 years old and being at diving practice, and my teammate Joe said, hey, I have a swimmer on my team at school who. Who is also a magician. You guys would really hit it off. You should hang out. And it took us 26, 27 years after that to meet.

[Oz Perlman]

I remember Joe Lubovic. I'm calling him out. He did not tell me this. Certain nerd levels. Magician in high school is the top of the top, folks. And if you wanna take it to the next level. In a chapter of my book, I recount the fact that I had waterproof cards because I thought I was wasting time in the shower, not practicing. So take that.

[Adam Grant]

Wow.

[Oz Perlman]

And I raise you Dungeons and Dragons level right there.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

That is a whole new level of joy.

[Oz Perlman]

That is a whole.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

At least you weren't a mime, though.

[Oz Perlman]

I've never done miming. I was a clown once. I needed the money desperately, and those were dark times.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So you're not gonna reveal any secrets tonight, are you?

[Oz Perlman]

Lots of secrets, but not on how to be a mentalist. So guessing random things from strangers, while very entertaining in my niche, isn't going to serve you in your life. But there's a lot of skills surrounding what I do that I've distilled from about three decades of doing this that works in every facet of life, because interacting with people is what defines your success. I'm not trying to create a puzzle that's trying to be figured out. I'm rather trying to show a skill that can be displayed and that a lot of people give me the highest compliment ever. They'll say, I don't like magic, but, man, I love what you do. And that's. You don't realize. Kind of a backhanded compliment, because mentalism is a subset of magic. But when you see a magician and there's tricks, right? There's card tricks, or there's a box and somebody puts swords in it, the question in the backyard is always, if I had that box or if I had the deck of cards, could I do that trick too? And so where that separates with what I do is there is no thing to point at. I am the performance. So what you're seeing is a skill that I've learned and developed as opposed to a prop that is helping me.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I do Think there's one distinction that people often miss, which is I think that mentalism and stage illusions are similar in that once you know the secret, it's kind of a bummer. Whereas with some close up magic, it gets even more impressive when it's revealed.

[Oz Perlman]

I would argue that's partially true. Some of this stuff, when you figure out mentalism, how it works, you can't believe that somebody would actually have the audacity to try to do that. So it flips towards either ridiculously easy or ridiculously crazy. Where people go, there's no way you're going to do that on live national tv. What if it goes wrong? And I go, let's go. And that's truly been a secret to my success is the fact that I'm willing to take bigger swings than almost anybody else in my field. And so you get bigger rewards.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

How did you build the courage to take those risks?

[Oz Perlman]

I think over time I've just realized that if I plan very effectively and learn how to plan for failure, exactly what you would think. Troubleshoots. When I go into something now I've tried to map out and model what happens if this goes wrong. What happens if this goes wrong? What happens if this goes wrong? And, and also a big part of it is realizing over time that I am in control of where the camera's pointed. Think of this like a movie and a director. In a movie, you only get to see the final cut. You don't get to see the other three or four endings that the director could have made. So when you see the movie, you only get one portrayal of it. Now, how does that apply to what I do? You think that you know exactly how that happened and that was amazing. What if I told you that trick went completely wrong, but I moved you to the path I wanted so you never knew where I was going with something. That's my advantage. Therefore you never knew if it failed. If I set up a challenge as I'm going from point A to point B, then you know I made a mistake. But if we start driving and you don't know where I'm going to end up, that's kind of the beautiful part about what I do that's taken years and years to learn, that I don't telegraph in advance where I'm going.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

How many backup plans do you have for a typical trick?

[Oz Perlman]

Countless.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Okay. Most people would look at you and say, being a mentalist is part of a genre of entertainment. But you don't see entertaining as your primary goal.

[Oz Perlman]

I don't see Entertaining as my primary goal at all. Because pure entertainment is like watching a movie at a theater. Where you leave the movie theater and 10 minutes later someone's like, so, what happened in the movie? And you're like, I don't. How many have had that experience the next day? You cannot tell people more than the plot line of. On the synopsis on Rotten Tomatoes.

[Adam Grant]

Just.

[Oz Perlman]

It was in and out one ear. It was entertaining, but it's not memorable. And so what I do is I create memorable moments. What are memorable moments? Now, being amazed is one thing, but I wanna create a moment that for both of them, they will talk about later, they will talk about later, and they will tell other people about. And the more you recount a memory, know this, the more it gets defined in your mind. The stories you've told the most in your life are the ones that are most vivid in your mind because you've told them over and over. That's how memory works. It's kind of like, do you remember a story when you were a kid? We have a video of it, and you've seen the video so many times that you remember it so vividly. So the same thing applies to what I do. And I think that I wouldn't have a career if everybody wanted to figure it out. Because the people that really go down the rabbit hole want to figure it out. A lot of them start to become mentalists. That's what I did. I'm like, I need to know how you just did that. And I am like a pit bull who's not gonna let go of your leg until I figure it out. So I kept studying and learning, and that's how it became a thing for me. But the truth is, I can't read minds. I can read people. I can influence people, and that's what I'm doing. It is not supernatural. There is nothing psychic about what I do. I have a very strong intuition. I would describe that as very different than being psychic, because I've honed it. Because if you had been in front of people tens of thousands of times and had them pick a number, 1 to 100, you have such a data set that I can tell what people will do in many instances before they even know. And that's because I've done it so much.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Talk to me a little bit about how you go about planning a trick and creating memorable moments. Because I think that's one of the real generalizable lessons is mentalism has been around for many decades. I think our parents remember Yuri geller in the 70s tricking people into believing that he could read minds.

[Oz Perlman]

Right?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Your performance art is completely different than what we're used to seeing from mentalists. So how did you build it? What are the key ingredients in a memorable moment?

[Oz Perlman]

My whole mindset is who cares about me, right? If you buy this book, I don't need you to be my fan. I don't want you to know anything about me. I want to know what this does for me. So that ethos of how I think about things is always value oriented and benefits oriented. The language I've used to sell since I was 14 years old and I walked up to a restaurant chapter in the book and somehow sweet talked into being a restaurant magician was never about, look how cool my tricks are. Okay? That's wrong and it's figuring out what's going on in the other person's head. Anybody here? Maybe some of you are going to go into corporate America. Some of you are going to startups, right? All of you should think in your mind about what the other person is. Your consumer, your boss, your colleague. The more you can empathize and realize what's going on in their mind, the stronger your advantage in life will be. Now let me give you a great example. For me as a mentalist, what do I think of when I'm pitching a TV idea? Nothing about me. I'm pitching the viewer at home and why they should care about me. So I'm going to give you a great example. CNBC is the financial network. Fox Business is another one. How many of you ever watched CNBC or Fox Business? How many mentalists or magicians have ever been on those two networks? Do you know one, and it's me. And last year I was on. This isn't a brag. I want you to really think about this because this does not make sense. These are serious networks. Their time on air is sold for a lot of money to people buying stocks and bonds, trading trillions of dollars. Why are they putting me on their platform? And last year. This is a crazy statistic. Look it up. I had more airtime on cnbc than any CEO in the country. Fortune 500. Did you hear what I just said? Any CEO in the country in 2024, this guy had more time on that network than them. That is preposterous. It's not because of this pretty face. It's because everything I designed was hyper focused on the person watching the content. I didn't think about me. I thought about them. It was about stocks, it was about bonds, it was about CEOs it was about, what's the market gonna do? So somebody who turns this on and goes, who's this guy? Is captured. The more you make the focus on the other person in life, the more success you will attain. I don't mean just in your business career. I mean in your personal life. Think to yourself, how many times have you been at a party or a networking event and you walked out of the room and one person stood out to you and you go, God, that person was so awesome. What was so awesome about them? Try to define it. Try to quantify. What did they do that made you feel so special or that you liked them so much? And I've been in rooms with some of the most powerful people in the world, with Adam as well. And you've seen it and what made people stick out. I've analyzed it, and time and time again, the person who I find the most appealing and most interesting is the person who's the most interested. They've looked at me. They've seen me. They haven't been on their phone. They haven't been looking around. They're locked in on me. They ask me questions that I haven't heard before. Oh, what are you majoring in? Where are you going next year? Boring. I've heard those questions a million times. So have you. How do you stand out from others? Now, I'm not saying to be. Again, this isn't a manipulative approach. This isn't like I need to plan in advance what I'm gonna do. This is starting to think like the other person and realizing that if that person feels seen, heard, that you're interested in them, then they leave feeling great about you because you showcase the most important person in the world to them themselves. The more you can realize that every person is the lead actor or actress in their movie and make them shine, the better you will do. That is what's allowed me over the last 20 years, since I quit my job on Wall street, to get to where I am.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So I have a couple reactions to that. The first one is I was noticing your language. You're very careful about how you speak. And you said, I've been in rooms with some of the most powerful people in the world, as well as Adam.

[Oz Perlman]

Yes, Adam was with me.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Thank you for marking that distinction.

[Oz Perlman]

Adam was with me in the room is what I meant.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I really appreciated you separating me from that group of people. Thank you, Oz. Secondly, I'm thinking about some work psychologists have done to underscore your point. There's a classic Jamie Pennebaker experiment where people have to come into a group and talk to a bunch of strangers and then afterward they're asked, how much did you like the group?

[Adam Grant]

And the more they talked, the more they liked the other people in the group.

[Oz Perlman]

Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Jamie calls it the joy of talking. And he says that most of us find that communicating our thoughts is a supremely enjoyable learning experience.

[Oz Perlman]

Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

People, sure enough, they actually believe not only they like other people more in.

[Adam Grant]

The group, but the more you talk, the more you think you learned about everyone else.

[Oz Perlman]

Right?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

No, I think that really just probably illustrates your point nicely.

[Oz Perlman]

It's funny because a lot of the things that I learned were very body language, approach type things. So how do you know if somebody's interested? And I don't mean this romantically. It can be romantically, but you go into an interview, how do you know if that person, when you left, was really interested? Or they go, oh, yeah, we'll be in touch. Did they mean it? Did they not mean it? Right. What can you discern from their body language and what can you do to influence them? That's a huge one. Like those tips and tricks of watching. How do you match somebody's energy at the right level where you're not overwhelming them, but you're also not putting them to sleep. I learned so much of this, as I told you at 14 years old. At 13, I started doing magic. There's a place on 12 mile, an orchard lake called Zia's. It was a Italian restaurant that every two years would close down, and every two years they'd give it a new spin, new coat of paint. It went from being Mexican to Italian. Like, somehow we'll figure out how to make this restaurant work. I needed to make money. My parents had gotten divorced. Won't give you the whole sob story. And so my mom is like, I don't have any money. You can't buy any more magic tricks. It's like 40 bucks for every trick. Deck of cards. You need to go work. So I walked up to this restaurant, ignorance is bliss. And somehow talked my way into being a restaurant magician once a week for three hours. Do you think that people seeing a 14 year old, 4 foot nothing kid walk up to you with a deck of cards, were waiting for their moment to watch you and they had a babysitter. They're like, no, dude, get away. That was the school of hard knocks to learn what rejection feels like. It does not feel good. And so I learned all these little ways to iterate every time change a little Variable, like a recipe. Change this. Little more sugar. How's that taste? Little more salt. How's that taste? And I realized the secret sauce is when I walked up to people, what are they thinking when I walk up to them? Ask yourself, what does someone think about you when they meet you? And this is a tough thing to do because you're only used to being yourself. So I realized really early on that when I walk up to them, they don't know if I work there. They don't know if I'm any good. They don't know what I'm doing. And then when they figure out, oh, my God, is this kid gonna stay here for a long time? We're in the middle of a conversation. Do I have to tip him? Do I have money? All of these things went through their mind in the first three seconds, even sometimes before I even got to the table. And so my job became, how do I eliminate every point of resistance in their mind by the time I get to the table, how quickly can I do it? I realize if I walk up to a table, watch just like this, at an angle, and just walk up like this with only one eye showing, people are less tense. It doesn't feel like you're approaching them as much as you're just stopping by. I create a very quick time limit. I go, I only have a minute, right? Right away, I set the tone. But did you hear what's going on tonight? It's your lucky night, right? When you say that, it's not a yes or no question. I learned early on yes or no questions get me shut down. Guys. Want to see magic? No, but my mom says I'm really good, right? What are you going to do with that next? As soon as they go, lucky night. I've piqued your curiosity. I realized that I want to establish social credibility. So I would say the owner brought me in as a special treat for you tonight, and I'm showing you the most amazing thing you've ever seen. Right away. The owner brought me in as a special treat. I'm here because somebody of a high level brought me in as a special treat. You're not worried about giving me money anymore? Now, this is a hyper specific example to when I was in a restaurant. But you can approach the same methodology as what I just said with parts of your life. Where is it that you're gonna meet people? Where is it that you're gonna be with people you've already been with before? Not always for meeting somebody new. Some of us don't meet new people every day in life. But that's the kind of way to think about stuff where I analyze the pain points and I try to put myself in the other person's shoes.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Do you have trouble falling asleep at night?

[Oz Perlman]

I would say yes, but that's cause I have a six month old and my brain is racing. But I actually do have trouble falling asleep lately. Too much going on.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So one of the things I'm struck by is actually this is a form of mind reading, right? Because you're anticipating what other people are thinking and feeling and then you're disarming that.

[Oz Perlman]

It's called channel your inner mentalist. I'm not teaching you to be a mentalist, but the same skills really do apply.

[Adam Grant]

This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames Spread the holiday cheer and keep the family near by gifting them an aura frame. In my family, we have the tradition of doing Thanksgiving trivia games together. Those moments deserve more than being buried in my camera roll. That's why I love my Aura Carver frame. Throughout the day, it cycles through meals, games, vacations and everyday moments with my kids. You can simply download the Aura app, connect to Wi Fi and add photos from anywhere at any time. Each frame is packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag and you can personalize your gift by adding a message before it arrives. For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver Matte frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code worklifeeckout. That's auraframes.com promo code worklife. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. This show is supported by Crucible Moments, a podcast about when high stakes decisions and uncertainty collide, shaping the journeys of the world's most influential startups. As an organizational psychologist, I've spent time studying how people make decisions under pressure. Sequoia Capital calls these defining moments Crucible Moments, and their podcast brings you right into the room where these pivotal choices were made. Season three is full of surprising turns. Supercell, now a mobile gaming powerhouse, didn't originally set out to make mobile games at all. Zipline, which delivers medical supplies by autonomous drone, started as a robotic toy company. Go behind the scenes of companies like Stripe, Palo Alto Networks, Klarna and more. You'll hear about the stumbles, the leaps of faith, and the strategic bets that made these companies break through Whether you're building something of your own or just curious about how great organizations are formed, there's real insight here. Tune in to Sequoia's new season of Crucible Moments to discover how some of the most transformational companies of the modern era were built. Crucible Moments is available everywhere you get your podcasts [e-mail] go listen to Crucible Moments today. This episode is brought to you by Upwork. You know it's bad when your inbox hits double digits before 9am you start the day buried in tasks and end it wondering where the time went. Doing it all yourself felt scrappy at first. Now it's just slowing you down. Stop doing everything. Upwork Business plus takes the hassle out of hiring by dropping a curated shortlist of expert talent right in your inbox in hours, not days. These are proven freelancers, vetted for skills and reliability and trusted by businesses like yours. Get instant access to the top 1% of talent on Upwork in marketing, design, AI, and more. They're ready to jump in and take work off your plate so you can stop doing everything and delegate with confidence. Right now, when you spend $1,000 on Upwork Business plus, you'll get $500 in credit. Go to Upwork.comsave now and claim the offer before December 31st. Again, that's Upwork.comsave scale smarter with top talent and $500 in credit, terms and conditions apply.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I really like your specific identifying the hesitation people have and then maybe even calling it out. Right? You go into a job interview and somebody asks, what's your greatest weakness? The easiest thing to do in that moment is say, I bet you've had a lot of people give you fake weaknesses and say, like Michael Scott. Yeah, I have weaknesses. I work too hard and I care too much. I'm not gonna do that.

[Adam Grant]

Let me tell you about a real.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Weakness that I struggled a lot with and here's what I'm doing to overcome it so easy. I mean, that's exactly the kind of thing that you did as a 14 year old, right? You probably hate magic.

[Oz Perlman]

Absolutely. Vulnerability, honesty, and also thinking of shifting people out of autopilot. What is autopilot? I'm gonna give you just a great example. You get into an elevator. I live in New York City, and you get in an elevator with two other people. You don't talk to each other. You're looking away, you're looking at your phone. Anything to not have eye contact for those 20 seconds. Right? But what if that elevator gets Stuck. And then everyone pushes the button, and then you're stuck in the elevator 45 seconds. Suddenly, you will talk to those other people. You might become besties, right? Oh, man. We got through it together, right? There's somehow a change in the environment that creates this moment where all of you are no longer that person you were a moment ago, even though you're the same people. What creates that? Where suddenly you act differently. You're not your autopilot self. Ask yourself, what can you do to make the elevator get stuck when you're with someone else, how do you make them suddenly connect with you in a way that they don't normally? And for me, you're in an environment where you're feeling nervous. What do you do? Tell someone, Be like, I'm so nervous right now. Man, are you too? And you opening up to somebody with a smile and allowing them to see that you're a person just like they are. I've had environments like that where that's really just taken somebody and they've identified with me and it's just broken down their walls because you don't know what to say. That's great. You know what? Lean into that. I think that that is something you can do. Like you just said that right away. Shows that you're a real person and allows people to open up to you.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Did you know there are two people who came here together who met when an elevator got knocked?

[Oz Perlman]

That's it. I see them right there. I see them right there.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Talk to us about overcoming your fear of rejection. Something that holds a lot of people back from even making the first approach.

[Oz Perlman]

I think that's the number one thing that holds people back. I truly believe that it's internal monologues that talk you out of going for things that over and over, you will say to yourself all the reasons why something can't be done. And once you start doing that on repeat, do you know what happens? You stop looking for the paths for where it can be done. Just that constant telling yourself, I can't do it starts to limit your options in your mind. I learned this early on at the restaurants because it hurts so bad if you went to 1, 2, 3, 4 tables in a row that turned you down or were rude to you, that it just hurt. What I did around the age of 14 or 15 is I created almost like a split personality, for lack of a better term. Have a psychiatrist explain this. But I started getting really mad at the next table. I would take my anger out at them because those guys are such Dicks, like, you know what? Screw you guys too. Like, I was being nasty to other people because I felt so angry from before. And I realized I'm not gonna be able to do this and I'm not gonna be able to get more money to buy more magic tricks. So I was very, like, incentive driven. So I started to create this excuse in my mind where I blame shifted. And this is truly a rewiring of your brain where I started saying, if they were nasty, I'd go, I bet their kid was sick. Or I bet they had a fight right before I came to the table. I started making it not about me. And so I started to create this thing in my mind where I took the blame onto someone else. So if they didn't like me, I said, they don't know Oz Perlman. That's Oz the Magician. They didn't like Oz the Magician's tricks. Not my bad. So I didn't internalize the hit. I didn't feel the rejection the same way. Instead of thinking of it as a no because people are like, eh, let go of it. I would think of it as a not yet, not yet, not yet. Keep taking strides. Maybe it's not meant to be. Now rewire the way you think about it.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Those examples are a masterclass in making situational, as opposed to dispositional attributions in cognitive reappraisal, in self distancing. All the emotion regulation techniques that we teach in psychology, you applied them without having the names for it.

[Oz Perlman]

You used much better terminology than I did.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

They're not rejecting all of you. They're rejecting.

[Adam Grant]

It's a snapshot of you.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Right. It's like it's the equivalent of if you took a selfie and somebody thought you were ugly. Like, you don't internalize that.

[Adam Grant]

Right.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Like, oh, bad angle, bad lighting. And then if they rejected four selfies, now you have a problem.

[Oz Perlman]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I think the way that you separated your identity, your self image from their reactions to just this little interaction or this little performance is such a critical skill for building resilience.

[Oz Perlman]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you have to find a way to do it. Because for me, I didn't want this to end. And I was finding myself just so hurt that you have to find a way around it. So I'll give you just another example. I am a huge procrastinator. I will keep pushing off the things I hate doing, and that has led to my detriment because I'll focus more on my strengths than my weaknesses. So over time, I've realized That's holding me down. That's an anchor on me. So I figured I have to find a way around this. So here's what I do. I swear to God, this is exactly what I do. I don't do it as often now because I've learned to internalize it. I will put an alarm on my phone for 24 hours from now. Like, I'm serious. I go 24 hours from this moment. And in the alarm, I write the question, how do you feel about X1 to 10? And I write that in the alarm and I put it on. And now I force myself to do what I wasn't going to want to do. Send the email, make the call. I take care of business. I do the thing I didn't like. And right before I do it, I ask myself, what was the number I felt? And it's usually like, oh, God, seven, eight, or nine. Dread anxiety. The next day when the alarm goes off, 9 out of 10, I don't even remember that the alarm was set. Do you understand what I mean? That anxiety, that panic, everything I felt. And now when I look at it, I go, I'm a two. So what happened? Nothing. Time lapsed. Time lapse. Your brain didn't change. Nothing changed. Your perception of time is all that occurred. So if you could find a way to fast forward your feelings and feel the way you're going to in 24 hours now, you don't dread it anymore. And that is a trick. The same way I play tricks on your minds. That is a way you can trick your mind. And once you've done that two or three times with the alarm, you will realize it's not real. The anxiety and the dread is not real. And that in the last two years, ever since I started doing it, has changed my life. I handle things much quicker. I don't delay them. Try it. You're gonna be like, it's not as bad as I thought it would be. And I know that.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Anticipatory emotion regulation. Well played.

[Oz Perlman]

We need to go on the road together.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I'm just gonna make up random words for the things you say. That sounds like the shoelace effect.

[Oz Perlman]

There we go.

[Adam Grant]

This episode is brought to you by Zapier. We cover a wide range of trends on this show, and lately, everyone's been buzzing about AI. I've started using AI tools myself for research, and they've been genuinely helpful for synthesizing studies and exploring new angles on workplace topics. But here's the thing. Talking about innovation doesn't make your workday easier. You need tools that actually deliver, and that's where Zapier comes in. Zapier helps you move beyond the hype and put AI to work in practical ways. Their AI orchestration platform lets you connect powerful AI models like ChatGPT and Claude directly to the apps your team already uses. Whether you're automatically enriching leads, coaching sales reps, or resolving IT tickets, you can add AI exactly where it makes sense for your workflow. And the best part? Zapier is designed for everyone. No technical Expertise required, no IT bottlenecks. Join the 3.4 million companies already automating with Zapier and transform how you work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com worklife that's Z-A P I-E-R.com worklife this show is sponsored by Range Rover Sport. It's not just what you say, it's how you say it. To truly make an impact, you need to set an example, take the lead and adapt to whatever comes your way. And when you're that driven, you drive an equally determined vehicle, the Range Rover Sport. Blending power, poise and performance. Like you, it was designed to make an impact. The vehicle combines dynamic sporting personality, elegance and agility to deliver a truly instinctive drive defining true modern luxury. It includes the latest innovations in comfort and convenience with features like the cabin air purification system alongside active noise cancellation for all new levels of quality, comfort and control. A force inside and out the Range Rover Sport was created with a choice of powerful engines, including a plug in hybrid with an estimated range of 53 miles. Build your Range Rover Sport at range rover.com ussport this episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. If you're a small business owner, work rarely stops. When the day ends, your business is always on. And when it's time to hire, you need a partner who's just as committed. That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes hiring simple. Post your job for free and share it with your network. Their new feature even helps write job descriptions and gets your posting in front of the right candidates with deep insights. Want more reach? Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. Here's what matters most. Quality. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn say it's helped them find high quality candidates. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring and find your next great hire today. Post your job for [e-mail] worklife that's LinkedIn.com worklife to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Lightning round Rapid fire questions, Quick answers. Okay, you're an ultra marathon runner. Yes. First of all, what's the longest you've ever run continuously?

[Oz Perlman]

153 miles without sleep. I slept for five minutes. So, yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Okay, and what's the biggest lesson from that? Insanity.

[Oz Perlman]

So the ultra marathoning, it makes everything else in life easier. So when you go through that and you have these difficult, awful, horrible feelings that you want to give up and you're like, oh, that sounds really fun. Why are you doing that? Once I get through it, it's incredible. So it's the getting through it and overcoming the adversity that can't be faked. I actually prefer for it to be miserable because then it sharpens my mind for later.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I think this is something that people often don't understand about doing high intensity sports. I had the same experience as a diver. How could I ever hesitate to send an email or make a call or get on a stage? It will never hurt anywhere near as much as a belly flop going 30 miles an hour. I'm like, you do that. Every single social risk you take is easier.

[Oz Perlman]

And I will never laugh as hard as seeing a strong belly flop. But no offense, but yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

What is the worst career advice you've ever gotten?

[Oz Perlman]

Listening to haters.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Okay, what's the best reason to leave.

[Adam Grant]

A job on Wall Street?

[Oz Perlman]

You only live once. If you have a passion, go for it.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

YOLO for the win. Who's your favorite magician?

[Oz Perlman]

Magician or mentalist?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Okay, give us both.

[Oz Perlman]

Oh, that's such a tough question because that's like, now you're getting to, you know, it's like your favorite song. Like, what genre? This is where we get super in the weeds.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Most memorable magician.

[Oz Perlman]

So the person who had, I would say, the greatest impact on me as a teenager and growing up was David Blaine. Because David Blaine created spectacles that would capture the public imagination.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So are you gonna give us favorite mentalist too?

[Oz Perlman]

Favorite mentalist. Gotta be Darren Brown.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Oz Perlman]

So Darren Brown is a UK based guy who's kind of the og.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Darren Brown was my favorite until you. Okay, there are a couple of audiences.

[Oz Perlman]

Flipping that and sending it to Darren.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Feel free. Audience questions that we haven't covered yet. One person wants to know, what's my ATM pin code?

[Oz Perlman]

Okay, where are you? Where are you?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Another wants to know what's the hardest part of your craft?

[Oz Perlman]

Being okay with tremendous risk.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

What about when all your backup plans fail? What do you do?

[Oz Perlman]

Then get more time if possible.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

So you'll do a follow up trick?

[Oz Perlman]

Maybe, if there's time. So it's like a plane landing on a Runway. As long as there's more Runway, right. Burn rate on a startup. Give me some more of that money series B, baby, so I can try to get out of it. So time is what I try to buy more of.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Who is the hardest celebrity or CEO to fool?

[Oz Perlman]

I don't know who's the hardest. If they're the hardest, I don't remember them. Well, I tried to PTSD that away.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Question you have for me, other than.

[Oz Perlman]

Me, what was the most fascinating conversation you ever had?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Ever?

[Oz Perlman]

Most fascinating person you've ever met?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Oh, that's a tough one. I think the most fascinating person I have ever met actually is Brian Little, my undergrad mentor.

[Oz Perlman]

Really?

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I have never had a conversation with him where I didn't come out with 20 or 30 new questions and I could bring up any topic and he would have something riveting to share about it. And another question then to go and seed my curiosity for a year. And he's the reason I became a psychologist.

[Oz Perlman]

I think that's incredible. And if you can find the person who's maybe who you want to be in one year or three years or five years or 10 years and win them over. And people are so busy nowadays and that it's hard to get access. Right. I'm busy. I'm this. How do you find an interesting way to get them to in essence give you their time? And I found that the best way to do that is you want a relationship. What can you give them? They might not want money, they're very successful. So find things that are pain points for them and offer to do it for them. And a lot of the time it's not by doing the same thing everybody else does. Oh, I want an internship. I want this. Find some way to help them that no one else has offered. Think to yourself, what's the difference between amazing and memorable? And everybody in here should try to find what can you do to be memorable? So when you leave a room, wherever you are, you're the person people talk about later.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

All right, my most important question. Do you have another trick for us?

[Oz Perlman]

Let's go. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm gonna kind of just go across.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Oze picks up his book and points.

[Adam Grant]

His finger at the COVID And I'm.

[Oz Perlman]

Not gonna do a full word. I'm gonna go and I want you to stop Me.

[Adam Grant]

As I go, he runs his finger left to right across the book cover.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I'm gonna close my eyes.

[Oz Perlman]

No, no, no. Look, you can make a concert as I go. Say stop.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Stop.

[Oz Perlman]

Okay, I'm looking. And I am either on the F or the U. Raise your hand if your first name starts with an F. Right over here. What is your first name? Fahim. Fahim, stand up for me. Let's give this a shot. Now, if I guessed something amazing about you and you didn't tell anyone about it, I have failed utterly. So if I ask everybody in this room who you would call or who you would text after this and tell them, you're not going to believe what he did. Can you right now, did someone pop into your head? Vahim, you know exactly who you would call or text. Is that correct? Imagine this person calls you right now and you get them on the phone. Can you picture it? Let's see how we do here. Can you see your person?

[Adam Grant]

Yes.

[Oz Perlman]

Watch this. Fahim, count the number of letters in your person's first name. Just count the number of letters. Now notice how quick he counted. Did everyone see it? He didn't struggle. If the name was very long, it takes time to count. If the name is very, very short, you instantly know it. It's typically five or six letters, but you smiled at the beginning. Five letters, isn't it?

[Adam Grant]

Yep.

[Oz Perlman]

Yeah. Also notice where his hands are.

[Adam Grant]

Faheem has his hands clasped in front of him below his waist.

[Oz Perlman]

It's a female, isn't it? Course it is. Hands here. Typically female hands here.

[Adam Grant]

Oze puts his hands in his pockets.

[Oz Perlman]

Guy, I don't know why mix up the letters in her first name and you stop as if we're playing Scrabble. And you reach up and you scrabble one letter out. And you have this one letter just in your mind. Do you have it? Yes. He didn't want to do a vowel. He thought, oh, that's going to give it away. And then there's five letters to choose from. But you didn't do the first letter, did you? Because he thought that would give away. But also because of the way I phrased. I said, reach up and grab one in, in, in. Makes you feel like it's in the middle. You thought of the letter right in the middle, didn't you? And you did a strong exhale. H, isn't it?

[Adam Grant]

Fahim nods. Yes. The middle letter is H. That's right.

[Oz Perlman]

Yeah. Now, at first I would have thought, mom. Because I'm thinking he's very close to everybody's. No, no, no, no. Close your eyes, please. Cover them up.

[Adam Grant]

Oz starts to write something on a small whiteboard he has in his hands. With Fahim's eyes closed, Oz shows it to the audience. At the top of the board, Oze wrote the name Sahar. Below it he wrote Fiance Fahim, open your eyes.

[Oz Perlman]

What is this person to you? How do you know them? What are they to you? She's my fiance. Congratulations. What's her name?

[Adam Grant]

Sahar. Sahar.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Firman.

[Adam Grant]

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale sue and Alison Leighton Brown.

[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

I think I crack about 75% of your tricks and I hate it when I don't. And I hate it right now.

[Adam Grant]

Good.

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[Interviewer (possibly Adam Grant or a co-host)]

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