Podcast Summary: WorkLife with Adam Grant

Episode: ReThinking: How to spot psychopaths and narcissists, with Leanne ten Brinke
Date: March 10, 2026
Host: Adam Grant
Guest: Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, Social Psychologist, University of British Columbia

Episode Overview

In this episode, Adam Grant speaks with Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, an expert in “dark” personality traits (narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, sadism), about how to spot and deal with poisonous people—at work, in leadership, and in daily life. Dr. ten Brinke shares research-based insights and practical advice, busts common myths, and explores the hope and nuance behind managing dark traits, both in others and ourselves.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Dark Personalities

• The Dark Tetrad:
  Dark traits: psychopathy, Machiavellianism, narcissism, and sadism. These exist on a spectrum, overlapping in callousness, antagonism, and manipulation, but each represents a distinct “flavor”.

  • Psychopathy: impulsivity, lack of empathy.
  • Machiavellianism: calculated, strategic manipulation.
  • Narcissism: grandiosity, entitlement.
  • Sadism: enjoyment of others’ pain.
    (Leanne, 06:34)

• Prevalence:
  About 10% of people score high on some combination of these traits—most are not “clinically” disordered but can still cause significant social conflict.
  (Leanne, 08:54)

• Quote:
  "What's a bit difficult in the definition of poisonous people is kind of like, where to draw the line, because these personality traits exist on a continuum, right?"
  —Leanne ten Brinke [07:58]

2. Surprising Behavioral Signals

• Contagious Yawning and Empathy:
  People high in psychopathic traits are less likely to “catch” yawning—a physical marker for emotional contagion and empathy—compared to emotionally reactive people.
  (Leanne, 04:04)

• Reading People:
  Those with dark traits may be skilled at “cognitive empathy” (understanding others’ thoughts), but lack “emotional empathy” (feeling with others).
  (Leanne, 05:03)

• Nonverbal Cues:
  Indicators of dark traits include interrupting but refusing interruption, ignoring boundaries, using big words incorrectly, and inappropriate emotional displays (e.g., smiling broadly while saying hostile things). Watching short behavioral clips, people can often intuitively sense psychopathy.
  (Leanne, 13:24)

• Quote:
  “There’s this kind of famous quote about people with psychopathy kind of knowing the words but not the music of emotion.”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [06:10]

3. Myths: Power, CEOs, and Politics

• Are Psychopaths Overrepresented Among CEOs?
  Yes, but nuance is key. Around 3% of CEOs meet clinical psychopathy criteria vs 1% of the general population. However, 97% of CEOs are not psychopaths.
  Most psychopaths are more likely to end up in prison than in the C-suite—20% of the incarcerated, vs. 3% of CEOs.
  (Leanne, 18:20; Adam, 19:19)

• Dark Traits in Politics:
  Research coding C-SPAN footage suggests that narcissists and psychopaths are drawn to power in government—but, in Congress, those with darker traits are actually less influential or effective once in positions of authority. They generate more conflict, isolation, and stagnation.
  (Leanne, 21:40)

• Quote:
  "They can talk a big game, look very persuasive, but they end up creating a whole lot of conflict.”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [23:43]

4. Society’s “Toxic” Label: Going Too Far?

• Pendulum Swings:
  The trend of labeling people as “toxic” or “dark” can help identify real harm but risks going too far—when every bad behavior is pathologized, people lose opportunities to learn how to manage difficult individuals.
  (Leanne, 16:26)

• Quote:
  “If you are unwilling to tolerate any level of those traits, then you can pretty quickly get to the point where you are, like, cutting out everybody.”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [17:05]

5. Practical Advice for Dealing with Poisonous People

Fork in the Road: Stay or Go (24:42)

• Leaving:
  If possible, especially in dangerous domestic situations, distance is safest. Take precautions and don’t announce departures.

• If You Must Stay:

  • Find Tiny Common Ground:
    People with dark traits care about loyalty; even minor shared traits or interests (e.g., “We have the same birthday”) can reduce blowups.
    (Leanne, 24:42)
  • Phrase Feedback as Questions:
    Questions (“What do you think about changing X?”) provoke less defensiveness than statements.
  • Avoid Ingratiation:
    Don’t play their own ego game by excessive flattery—this backfires over time.

• Boundaries are Crucial:
  Set explicit, non-threatening boundaries:
  "I'm not really interested in talking about that topic. If you come back to that, I'll have to end this conversation.”
  (Leanne, 33:38)

• Quote:
  “The easiest rules to push on are the ones that you never say and you never make explicit.”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [32:57]

6. Lightning Round Insights (32:23)

• Worst Advice:
  Trying to out-manipulate or dominate a dark personality.
• Best Overlooked Advice:
  Make boundaries explicit; unspoken rules are easiest for dark personalities to violate.

7. Personal Reflections & Leadership

• Adam’s Rethink:
  Recognizes his own tendency to use “manipulation for good” and ponders the fine line between influence and manipulation.
  (Adam, 40:03)

• Improving Ourselves:
  While dark traits are partly stable, research shows targeted actions (like “agreeableness challenges” over weeks) can reduce antagonism and increase kindness.
  (Leanne, 40:03)

• Hope for Change:
  Most people are not dark-traited. Dark tendencies are rarer and also more changeable than often believed.
  (Adam, 41:27; Leanne, 42:06)

8. Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Empathy and Psychopathy:
  “They get it, but they don’t have that same kind of inner feeling that the rest of us have.”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [06:10]

• Spotting Dark Traits in Brief Encounters:
  “People could detect with some level of accuracy how psychopathic this person was based on just watching five seconds of their behavior.”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [14:53]

• Toxic is a Spectrum:
  “Each of us falls somewhere along the continuum... Very few of us score extremely high, but also very few of us score zero on all four.”
  —Adam Grant [38:50]

• Practical Boundaries:
  “You want to do it in a way that doesn’t threaten them … ‘If you come back to that, I’ll have to end this conversation.’”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [33:38]

• Change is Possible:
  “Over time, our personalities are relatively stable, but they’re not cast in stone. We can change them with time and effort.”
  —Leanne ten Brinke [41:10]

Important Timestamps

• [02:55] Defining dark personalities and the Dark Tetrad
• [04:04] Contagious yawning as an empathy cue
• [08:54] Self-reports and prevalence of dark traits
• [13:24] Behavioral clues to spotting poisonous people
• [16:26] Is society too quick to label people “toxic”?
• [18:20] Psychopaths among CEOs – stats and interpretation
• [21:40] Levels of dark traits in U.S. Congress
• [24:42] Practical strategies for managing dark personalities
• [32:23] Lightning round: best and worst advice
• [36:10] Leadership and how to encourage guilt-prone, prosocial leaders
• [40:03] Can we decrease our own dark traits?

Tone and Style

The episode is empirical yet practical, balancing research findings with real-world advice. Adam Grant’s persona is curious and reflective, while Leanne ten Brinke is warm, candid, and clear-eyed about both the challenges and the potential for hope and growth.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Dark personalities are uncommon, but their harmful behaviors have outsized impact—especially in positions of power.
• Spotting dark traits requires looking at both what people say and how they act, especially in how they violate social boundaries and respond emotionally.
• Not everyone who exhibits a dark trait occasionally is “toxic”; these traits exist on a spectrum and can be present in lower (and sometimes adaptive) degrees.
• When dealing with dark personalities, distance is best when possible, but explicit, non-confrontational boundaries and indirect influence tactics help when interaction is unavoidable.
• Most importantly: awareness, intentional kindness, and self-reflection can help reduce dark tendencies both in our environments and ourselves, leading to healthier workplaces and relationships.