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Worklife with Molly Graham
ReThinking: Malala Yousafzai on redefining resilience and prioritizing joy
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A
Yeah, I mean I do want to clarify. I'm not recommending everybody climbs a rooftop. Like, that's not the point. Imagine, like, oh, Malala inspired me. Doing what? Study? No, climb rooftop.
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B
Hey, everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Malala, activist for girls education and women's empowerment and the youngest Nobel Peace Laureate in history. I've known her for over a decade, so I wanted to bring you a more personal look at how her life has evolved. Malala became a public figure when she was still a child, and in her new book, Finding My Way is her effort to take control of her own story. Again, we talk about how she navigated sudden fame so young, why she changed her mind about marriage, her struggles with saying no, and her thoughts on a shared interest of ours, magic.
- [03:40]
A
This has been my childhood dream, to be able to do magic tricks. It just amazes me that you can make people believe in magic. I love the feeling when you know that something impossible has happened. So, yeah, I love card tricks. Card tricks are really impressive.
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B
In all the time we've spent together, how have we never done card tricks? They're my favorite, too.
- [04:01]
A
I know, but I'm under a lot of pressure when I'm with you because I know you will know what trick I used. They'll question too many things. So, no, I need to better prepare myself.
- [04:14]
B
I look forward to our own magic camp, which will be the nerdiest thing you've ever done. So there's something that's puzzled me for a long time, Malala, about your life. On the one hand, you won a Nobel Peace Prize. On the other hand, you fight with your brothers. What's that about?
- [04:32]
A
Yeah, I mean, I have two younger brothers, and it was, you know, when we were still young. Now, you know, now the dynamic is quite different because they're also older now.
- [04:42]
B
But I thought you were anti violence, though.
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A
So, like, I remember they were at the time, like, 11, you know, 13. They expressed their love in different ways. And sometimes they believe that to annoy your sister is a form of expressing your love. I disagree with that. But that's what they say.
- [04:58]
B
Why do you disagree with that?
- [05:00]
A
I think we should cause less trouble and do not annoy people. As simple as that. I'm sure you would agree on that.
- [05:07]
B
I don't know. You know, there's a term in psychology that I think describes what they're trying to do. It's called pro social teasing.
- [05:14]
A
Okay.
- [05:15]
B
Where you might poke fun at someone that you really love as a sign of endearment, or you might purposely get under their skin because you enjoy getting a reaction out of them. And you know you can only do that with people that you're really close to or truly love. And so you reserve that for your most important relationships. I like it. I'm guilty of it. From time to time. Change my mind, Tell me why I shouldn't be.
- [05:40]
A
I think there is a threshold for it. I think as a sister, like, I give enough signs to my brothers to let them know that, like, enough. And sometimes they just don't understand.
- [05:51]
B
All right, I could get on board with that. So you're okay with pro social teasing as long as they stop when you tell them you've had enough?
- [05:58]
A
Yeah, like three times enough. Okay. No more than that.
- [06:03]
B
Fair. So let's talk about your new book, Finding My Way. I thought it was a very powerful way of reclaiming your narrative in some ways, because I think the world got to know you when you were a kid. And I'd love to talk a little bit about sort of what reflection you saw in the mirror and how you wanted to change it. I remember the first time I was profiled on a much smaller scale. My editor told me that anytime the media covers you, it's like looking at yourself through a funhouse mirror. Did that capture your experience?
- [06:41]
A
I had a few challenges. One was the fact that I became this public figure at a very young age. And when you are still a teenager, you do not know who you are and what you want to be. So to get this recognition at a young age affects that process of growth for you, the process of learning for you about yourself, about who you are as a person. And then at the same time, when I was attacked and I was still in the hospital in coma, I was receiving this global recognition, and I was getting titles like being the bravest girl, the most courageous girl. But I did not know what that actually meant. And I somehow thought maybe because of this incredible place that I'm in right now, I have survived, and now I can advocate for girls globally. This might mean that I have now a responsibility to live up to this recognition. So in the middle of all of that, I just lost that sense of childhood. And I also lost this right to define myself. And it was in these later years in my life that I got an opportunity to reclaim how I wanted to be and redefine myself.
- [08:01]
B
So what did you want to redefine.
- [08:03]
A
I think this is not an easy question to answer because I had to write a whole book about this. In this book, I am sharing my journey. You cannot explain it in one sentence. It is your everyday life that you are trying to find out who you are. And I remember when I was joining university, so I got admission into Oxford, I received an email from our college principal saying that he wants to send out an email to all the new students to mention that I will be in college and that they need to maintain their distance and respect my privacy. Like, I froze. I said, no, no, please don't do that, because this is what had happened in school as well. So when I was brought to the UK for my medical treatment after the attack, I joined a new school here. And the students just did not know how to approach me. I was unaware of this new culture. There was the language barrier, so many things. And I just did not want all of that to be repeated in university as well. So university was that new starting point for me. I was so glad that the principal did not send any email to anybody. And I remember like I was walking like any other student in that freshers week, the opening week, and I was bumping into people, I was saying hello, asking them their name, what degree they were studying, which college they were at. And that's how I met so many incredible people. And I got an opportunity to introduce myself and as a student and you sort of, you know, you find the right people.
- [09:42]
B
I assume all you wanted was to be treated like a regular college student.
- [09:47]
A
That was my whole plan for college. Of course, I am passionate about studies as well, and I do advocate for education, but college was a time when I thought that I need to think about learning outside textbooks. And I remember, like in the early months at college, I was sitting in the library, looking outside the window, just seeing these friends chatting with each other, giggling, laughing. And I looked at my textbook and I said, I can read this anytime. I can come back to this. But the moments I can have with these friends I will treasure forever. I want to be in the gardens. I want us to talk about love life and just gossip about things, just complain about the academic pressure. So I closed my book and ran off and spent time with my friends. But this was my life. Then every week I would have essay crisis and somehow I'd be really frustrated with myself that why did I end up going to all of those events and why was I going to every dinner, every speaker's event, every Diwali or Eid party? But in the middle of the night when I'm figuring out how to finish an essay that's supposed to take me a whole week in just five hours and submit it by like 8am in the morning. At the same time, I would feel that it was worth it because I do not feel alone. I have so many friends and they are giving me these memories that I will treasure with me forever.
- [11:21]
B
That's great to hear. It seems like ever since that experience of wanting to be a normal college student, you have made a strong effort to try to show the world that you are a regular person and you live a somewhat normal life, despite the extraordinary impact you've had on the world and the unusual experiences that you've had. And I think one of my favorite demonstrations of this was maybe the best Instagram post I've ever seen. When you posted about the Barbie movie, I have to ask you about that.
- [11:57]
A
So I took my husband, we watched Barbie movie, and in the cinema there was just like, you know, the Barbie doll box. And you go inside and you take a photo. So yeah, we took a photo. Then I posted it on Twitter and Instagram and I said, this Barbie has a Nobel Prize. He's just Ken. So.
- [12:16]
B
How did Aser feel about that? Does he feel like he's Ken F?
- [12:20]
A
Yeah, I think he kind of that title with pride.
- [12:24]
B
That cracked me up. It was so funny, so clever. Okay, so let's go back to you and your evolution. I think one of the big themes in the book is you, on the one hand want to enjoy your life as a 20 something, and on the other hand you have this tremendous sense of responsibility and pressure. How did you deal with it early on and how has it changed over time?
- [12:51]
A
I would say that early on, when I was starting my new journey of activism in a new country after the attack, I had accepted this external expectation and I thought, like, I'm supposed to live how people expect me to live and it meant like sacrificing on small things. So in school I remember that I would sit quietly in the corner. I wasn't talking much because I just thought nobody wanted to talk to me. So that's how I felt, that I did not even have a choice, that it just happened because of the circumstances. So it's really hard to process with that. So I thought, okay, if you become an activist for a cause you believe in and people are telling you, yes, you are somehow the change maker, well, that means you cannot have any friends. That means you will not be loved. You cannot find love, and you cannot Expect a normal life, like marriage or family, friendships, going on a holiday, talking about anything other than work is not going to be your life. So like in college, when I was experiencing some of these things for the first time, my college friends were so shocked when they were finally understanding that I had never hung out with friends and heard swear words that I had never heard. People talk about boys and where they were last night and what happened last night. So in college I was like, nobody's watching me. It's just me and me and me. So why not try a few things? And even though I wanted a normal life in college, I felt it became a bit too normal. You know, a bit more than normal.
- [14:47]
B
So what do you mean, too normal?
- [14:51]
A
Like, there was a point when I realized that I was doing more than what my normal friends were doing. So I remember one, one day in college, I see this mysterious student and he tells me about rooftop climbing. And I said, wait a second, there's a whole thing going on in college and like, students who get in trouble do it. I want to do this too. My friends were rolling their eyes and they were a bit concerned, but I said, who cares? This is one opportunity. So my friend and I, at midnight, joined that stranger. She stepped back, actually, she said, you know what? I don't want to get in trouble. And I said, well, I think I'm going to take the risk. And this is a very risky journey to make it to the rooftop, because you make it to this small room on the fourth floor, then you sneak out through the window. There is this narrow pathway that takes you to the roof, but there's like many, many steps to it. And on this narrow path, you can only put like one foot at a time. That's how narrow it is. And one misstep, you would fall from a four story building, like, your life is at risk. And you have to, like, take this jump to make it to the next part of the roof. And quite a big jump. Somehow I made it through the journey. And I remember sitting on the rooftop under the bell tower, looking down at the college building, looking at these rooms. See some lights were still on, and I was wondering what the students were doing. And I was just breathing in this air of peace around me. And in that moment, I just felt a sense of accomplishment that I cannot describe to anybody. I thought that I had overcome something, that I could do what I wanted to do. And it's hard to explain to somebody like, oh, like, rooftop climbing is my mission. Like, no, it's not my mission, but it Felt like I was living my life. And I did not feel that I was limited, I was restricted, that I could be myself.
- [16:54]
B
I think it would be easy for people to assume that you're spending all your time just trying to save the world. And I think one of the things you've done for a lot of people is you've role modeled. It's actually okay to take risks and have fun and try things that might be frivolous and he might fall flat on your face. And that's entirely fine. So talk to me about the decision to learn to ski and ride a bike.
- [17:19]
A
I think it's really important for all of us to try new things. And for me it was really important. If somebody had asked me two or three years ago what my favorite activity was, I would have said sitting. I would always just be finding a spot to sit down. That's how inactive I had become when I married my husband, who is a very active person because he comes from the sports world, especially cricket. Then I was introduced to all of these different sports, including skiing and golf and paddle tennis, gym, like running. I go to gym more passionately than him now. Everything has changed. I was under the assumption that I was just somehow not capable of doing any of these things, that I could not run, that I could not lift weight, that I could not, could never do golf or ski. And once you give it a try, you know you can. And it has just completely changed my perspective. I think there's a very powerful message for girls and women out there, especially because we are oftentimes told that certain things are not for us. We are not capable, and that's why we never give it a try. What I have learned from my experience so far is that give it a try, you might be the best at it. You never know.
- [18:38]
B
I love that. I also am reminded of some research that speaks to what happens when people take on a hobby outside of work and they're able to master it. They actually get a confidence boost in their job because the experience of learning a skill, even if it's just for fun, reminds them of what they're capable of. So I guess I wonder, was there a spillover effect? Did you find that, you know, as you learned to ski or figured out that you could lift weights and run, did you find yourself navigating your work differently?
- [19:07]
A
100%. When I started looking after myself and when I started focusing on my physical and mental health, I realized that I was doing better in my work as well. I was not of this view before. I thought that it was a sacrifice you had to make to be more responsible in your commitment to a cause. And when I started looking after my physical health, go to the gym, go for a walk, run, play golf, learn something new, do a new activity, just go for a dinner with friends, I realized that I was in a much better shape. I felt fresher, I felt healthier, I felt more focused. So the time that I was giving to work is now even more productive. I feel like I can get more done than before. So it's like the complete opposite than what you expect. I think it's part of the work. We need to just change our approach and see it as part of the work.
- [20:09]
B
I think so too. I think so many people look at exercise and hobbies as a distraction or a diversion, but they're actually great sources of energy and confidence.
- [20:19]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [20:24]
B
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- [22:34]
A
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- [23:13]
B
One of the things that I think many people around the world look up to you for is your resilience. The way that you've faced adversity that most of us can't even imagine in our lives and come out of those experiences stronger. And I'd love to know what have you learned about building resilience?
- [23:31]
A
I would rephrase that question because I do not think that out of all of the tragedies and the circumstances that I faced that I came out as a resilient and strong and brave person. This is like what I thought I was supposed to be. And I thought that I had recovered from a bullet injury. I have done all of my surgeries. This is it. This is what recovery means. But it was seven, eight years later in college that I started getting flashbacks and panic attacks. It was not something that I could just undo in a day to say, okay, one panic attack and now I I'm going to be the normal person. No, like true bravery and courage is when you still get up, even when you feel scared, even when you feel there's not much you could do or you feel hopeless, but you still get up and you go out and you do it. So I have tried to redefine bravery and courage for me because in those moments when I was going through the mental health challenges, the trauma, all of these feelings, I somehow felt that I was losing this battle of resilience, that I could still stand up to the Taliban. But why would small things like the word murder or killing trigger me? And I could have my heart would be beating fast and I would be sweating and I just could not concentrate and I could not sleep at night and, and like, why was I going through these different panic attacks. And it's just to say that you cannot fully control your mind and you just do not know when a trauma can affect you. So now for me, it is looking after myself, prioritizing my physical and mental health, getting therapy. It has now become part of my life. And I would now call this the true resilience, when despite all of that you go through, you are still on the journey, working for the mission that you believe in.
- [25:45]
B
Wow, this is something so many people misunderstand about resilience. It's also something I got wrong about resilience. Resilience is not about the speed of your recovery. It's about the strength of your resolve. Such an important message. So one of the things you write about in the book, and it was one of my favorite parts of the book, this traces back to the transformation you were talking about that you went through at Oxford. In college, you thought you might never get married, or at least you were afraid of getting married. Why?
- [26:16]
A
I was afraid of getting married because I thought marriage means compromises for women. And growing up, I had seen many girls lose their future and their education because they were forced into marriages. Child marriage is a reality for millions of girls every year around the world. And at the same time, the more you understand your rights and your financial empowerment and your independence, you become more aware of how these institutions have historically taken from women rather than giving to women. And in the middle of it, I thought as an activist for women's empowerment and for girls education, somehow that I might be giving up to an institution that has been historically patriarchal, that somehow that I was failing or like, you know, that I'm sort of like submitting to something. So I thought, you know, what another person in your life, marriage as a whole, the best approach might be to just never get married. Just never have the problem. You never have to think about it. So this was my approach in college.
- [27:28]
B
Why did you change your mind?
- [27:30]
A
I changed my mind about marriage because I fell in love with a guy and then I was so confused. I was stuck between this dilemma of wanting to be with this person forever because I could not imagine my life without them. I loved ASR he was the right person for me. He was good looking, he was charming, he was kind of. He was funny. He would laugh at my jokes, like, what else could I have wanted? I thought he was the right one and such a secure person. I don't know. I thought he was just like a unicorn. And so I wanted to be with him. But then at the same time, I knew that in Our culture, you could not just be living with a person. You have to be married to be living with them. So it's part of our Pakistani culture. It's part of the Islamic culture as well. And you have to get your parents approval. So then this, like, whole new journey started for me where it was a bit of a battle to convince my mom. And also at the same time, like, I was trying to understand, you know, like, that I want to live with him, but what does that mean for my identity as a women's rights activist if I finally accept the institution of marriage?
- [28:51]
B
Wow. Okay. I need to interrogate your description of Aser for a second, because when you described all the things he had going for him, the first thing you said was not that he was kind, but that he was good looking. Malala, I would never have expected you to be that superficial.
- [29:09]
A
You know, there are a lot of kind people, but. No, just kidding. I think it's important. It's important that. That you have affection for each other. Like, for me, like, kindness is one of those things, but also good looks, a good smile.
- [29:23]
B
Okay. The other thing that jumped out at me is you reversed the common gender stereotype when you were talking about sense of humor. So in the research on how men and women think about sense of humor in relationships, you see this pattern that, you know, I think is really sad, which is when men say they want a sense of humor in a woman, they're looking for a woman who laughs at their jokes. And when women look for a sense of humor in a man, they're looking for a man who makes them laugh. And I love that you flipped that and you said he's funny. And by that, I mean he laughs at my jokes.
- [30:00]
A
Yeah, no, this is true. I laugh at his jokes as well. I think it can be both ways, I think, and it should be both ways. But I believe that he finds me funny and he laughs at my jokes.
- [30:12]
B
So I've seen it. Definitely. But everyone laughs at your jokes. Thank you. I feel like you might have missed a calling as a standup comedian, but I think the path that you've landed on is pretty meaningful.
- [30:24]
A
It's never too late. Never too late.
- [30:26]
B
Would you do stand up?
- [30:27]
A
Once I'm done with the book, who knows? It could be that I become a magician or I become a standup comedian.
- [30:34]
B
Oh, I can't wait for the Malala Magic comedy show.
- [30:37]
A
Yes. And you know, who knows? I might take over the Rethinking podcast by Adam Grant. Who knows?
- [30:46]
B
You're welcome anytime.
- [30:47]
A
Thank you.
- [30:48]
B
Okay. So let's go back then to this marriage dilemma. Why were your parents skeptical and why did you push forward anyway?
- [30:57]
A
I think on my parents side it was just completely unexpected that I introduced a guy. This was now like a love marriage situation. So. So they were worried that they did not know this guy yet. So my parents really wanted to know them. But then on my mom's side, I understand her concerns a bit more. Her own childhood was very different. She understood marriage in a different way. My mom didn't go to school in her community. A lot of most of the women, to be honest, every woman there could not complete their education. So for my mom, like marriage was a sense of security where they thought that if they find the right guy who is respectful and kind and ensures that you have a good time, that's a blessing, be grateful for it. So for my mom, marriage is a sense of security for women. But then she was like, that I should get married according to her preferences. So I was like, okay mom, we can agree on part of it, but then we disagree on the other part of it.
- [32:02]
B
Wow, so she expected you to agree to an arranged marriage?
- [32:06]
A
I wouldn't say that she said that, but yes, like that's what it appeared to be, you know, when they're like rejecting the proposal that you are bringing. So yeah.
- [32:17]
B
And what was it that made you want to push for this? Because you know, you articulated really clearly why you thought marriage was a problematic institution. What led to that change of heart?
- [32:28]
A
My view on marriage for myself changed with time a bit because I realized that some of these institutions have a whole history of patriarchy, but we ourselves are also redefining them. And in the end it's this mutual agreement between the two people who decide to live together. And when they are both in agreement and on good terms, you can break down the expectations and the barriers that are unfair to women. So ASR was the right person. I mean like we both can talk about anything. I realized that he was actually more open minded than me because in this whole like pre marriage period, I would sometimes send him these silly questions at midnight and ask him like on WhatsApp, you know, what is your opinion about four marriages in the Islamic context? And he would just send a funny reply like, oh, he's like, I think I'm getting like four personalities in you already. Why would I have a second wife? Or sometimes I would say, you know what if like your wife is earning more than you? Do you have a problem with that? And he would say, I would be blessed if my Wife is earning more, and I don't have to do anything. And I, you know, like, we. That we have, like, everything we need. So I thought, okay. He is just so secure, and he answers everything with such charm and intelligence. So, yeah, I got to know him, and I knew he was the right person. But, like, when somebody asks me about marriage now, I do not recommend that marriage is the right decision for every woman out there. And I'm also not saying that it is the worst decision a woman can make for herself. I think we have to acknowledge the reality of how still, like, tens of millions of girls are becoming brides when they're still children. They're losing their future. We have to talk about how there is this inequality and this imbalance of power when it comes to this. But I think we are also capable of redefining these institutions and redefining these norms as well. So I hope that it opens up a conversation where people can talk more openly and just think about it, like, how can we make it better? How can we redefine it?
- [34:49]
B
Well, I loved one of the ways that you did that, which is you told ASR that you wouldn't take his name, but you were happy to offer yours.
- [34:56]
A
Yeah, more than happy. The offer is still on the table.
- [35:00]
B
Good to know. Mala, I have to say, this image of you grilling him at midnight via WhatsApp is hilarious. It sounds like you were testing his feminist credentials in a way.
- [35:12]
A
Yes. Yes. I think he's a feminist. He doesn't just talk about it. I think he proves it through his actions. And I think we need feminist men, women, who are showing us how to be feminists by action.
- [35:29]
B
One of the things I admire most about you is the courage that you show in standing up for yourself and for women and girls. We saw it when you first burst onto the world stage standing up against the Taliban. We saw it in this little example of standing up to your parents and to your now husband about what kind of marriage you wanted to have. There's one situation, though, where you are a coward. It's with your friends on your honeymoon.
- [35:57]
A
Wow. You know what? You are the first one asking about that experience, because there are so many topics in this book that, like, this is just a small part of the story. So, basically, yes, I was on this honeymoon with my husband, of course, because a honeymoon should be with your husband only in Turkey. And a friend of mine asked where I was, and they said, oh, like, you know, it's a friend's birthday. It would be nice to be together and I said, well, I'm in Turkey. Feel free to join if you can. No. And they did. They did. Six of my friends showed up on our honeymoon. It was fun.
- [36:37]
B
Wait, how did this snowball from one friend to six? And why did they think it was okay to join you on your honeymoon?
- [36:42]
A
The other friends. Friends wanna come. And then before you know it, it's a whole group of like eight of you then. So I remember, like, we were taking a boat ride and we were visiting the beautiful mosques in Turkey and in every photo, there's like eight of us. And. Yeah, well, I know ASR was traumatized. ASR is like, you know, I don't know.
- [37:05]
B
Why didn't you say no?
- [37:07]
A
I have struggled to say no my whole life.
- [37:09]
B
I think there's still some work to do on this front. I think it sounds to me like you were trying to give to your friends, but you were taking from your husband.
- [37:17]
A
Yeah. Well, I think you should do a separate interview with him. I think he has a lot to say about that. I think on this point about giving, I was just thinking about it recently that time is limited. Time is precious. The things that you want to make come true also need, you know, so much of your focus and attention. So I try to remind myself of the bigger picture and that time is a limited resource.
- [37:45]
B
I think it's a really important point that it's impossible to please everyone. And the best you can do is make sure that you're disappointing the right people so that you're clear on who you want to show up for first and foremost. And if that means letting other people down, so be it.
- [38:01]
A
Yes.
- [38:05]
B
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- [40:45]
A
Yes.
- [40:46]
B
Okay, what's the worst advice you've gotten?
- [40:49]
A
One thing that I have heard from people, especially from Pakistan and from like my own community, is that they tell me that they're so proud of me and that I represent them. It's such a heavy word when somebody tells you that you represent them because you have to think about that identity and how you reflect that in the way you do your work, in the way you dress up, in the way you talk about different causes and different issues. So I stay optimistic. But then it's really quite heavy to hear a response like that where people ask you to be a representative or an ambassador for like a whole community or culture or, you know, or a belief.
- [41:33]
B
Yeah, it sounds like a more extreme version of the cultural pressure that so many women face to be caregivers and supporters and nurturers. And you Know, either subservient to others or to constantly be sacrificing themselves to serve others.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah.
- [41:50]
B
So your best advice would be to not do that?
- [41:53]
A
Yes. I think it's so important for us women to know what we want. And if there's so much noise around us and we keep listening to what people expect from us, I think we will lose a sense of our identity.
- [42:09]
B
Okay, how about you're arranging your dream dinner party. Who's at the table? Alive or dead?
- [42:16]
A
Marie Curie. Benazir Bhutto, the first female Prime Minister of Pakistan. Malalay of Mewand, the Afghan heroine. My father named me after her. I mean, the list is just so long. I really want my college friends to be there. And I want to bring so many of the girls I have met in my activism and advocacy from like, you know, girls in Afghanistan to Nigeria to Pakistan and. And it could be like a really fun group of young women who come together and just chat about life problems and astrology and love life and anything. Anything. I just want that dinner.
- [43:00]
B
I love everything about your answer except the casual mention of astrology.
- [43:06]
A
Oh, I knew it. I knew it. The trigger word.
- [43:09]
B
Please. You can't possibly believe in this. It's made up.
- [43:14]
A
Okay? I mean, there's something about it. Come on. Like, do you believe like billions of people follow astrology and they can nod and they can say, yeah, I think this makes sense. Or like, I can relate to it. How are you rejecting this evidence of billions of people? Adam Grant.
- [43:32]
B
Oh, Malala. Billions of people have believed false things many times in the past, throughout human history. And I form my beliefs based on science, as you know. And uh huh. Jackson Liu did this massive study of over 170,000 people in China, finding a zero correlation between your zodiac sign and your personality traits. And there's not even a way that the position of the sun and the moon and the stars when you were born could possibly affect your psychology.
- [44:05]
A
Adam, what is your star sign?
- [44:09]
B
I can't tell you that because it's meaningless. Are you just baiting me right now?
- [44:13]
A
You know what? Because your answer might explain why you think that way. You know what I mean?
- [44:18]
B
So no, this is pro social teasing right now. And I don't like being the victim of it.
- [44:23]
A
I know. So my husband is a Virgo, and he also like, rolls his eyes when I talk about astrology, as he should. And I was like, ugh, such. Exactly. That's what a Virgo would say. So.
- [44:33]
B
Yeah, I have. I'll send you my rant about this But I just have to add one thing here, which is, even if you believed in astrology and ignored all the evidence, that it has no bearing on who we are or what we're like. We all have the wrong signs because the astrological charts are 2000 years out of date, and so Astor's not actually a Virgo.
- [44:56]
A
Okay, Adam, what else do you want, huh? In your campaign against astrology?
- [45:03]
B
You know what? If people do it for fun, I'm fine with it. But I do worry that it's a gateway drug to believing other false things. There is evidence that people who believe in astrology are more likely to believe that the moon landing was faked and that 911 was an inside job. And I think that we need to stand for critical thinking in the world.
- [45:20]
A
Okay, I agree. I think we should draw a line so you can, like, read about your star sign or just look at, you know, the compatibility of the potential partner you are considering. But I think there are other things that make a lot more sense than the astrological charts. So we agree on a lot of things? Yes, but I would not fully dismiss it.
- [45:43]
B
Yes, well, we can differ on that one. But I'm glad that you think we should stop making life decisions based on our horoscopes, and we should stop discriminating against people based on their birthdays.
- [45:56]
A
Yes, Adam, you said that very soon, strongly, with a lot of passion, so.
- [46:02]
B
Well, thank you for making me suffer through that. All right, I'm going to go back to the lightning round here. Just give me in one sentence. Do you have a hot take, an unpopular opinion that you're eager to defend?
- [46:14]
A
I mean, I have been defending it already. It's good to look at the boys or the girl's star sign before you go on a date with them, because it will give you an idea.
- [46:26]
B
Boo.
- [46:27]
A
Boo.
- [46:28]
B
Yes, boo. Who invited you? Okay, tell me, is there something you changed your mind about recently?
- [46:35]
A
I wouldn't say I changed my mind, but I think it has reaffirmed the way I see activism right now. I have just realized how important it is for us to focus on collective advocacy and collective activism, to know that unity and becoming one voice is a key driver to change. I think us individually can start a movement and we can begin a new conversation, but for the real change to happen, we have to join hands.
- [47:04]
B
Great. And what's the question you have for me?
- [47:07]
A
So you have a daughter who might be joining university in a few years. What is your message to girls that age? And what is your message to their parents in how they can be more supportive.
- [47:22]
B
Wow. Oh, that's a great question. Probably the first message that I would give is, you don't have to choose a practical major in college. We've reached a point now where in most Westernized countries, at least, girls are outperforming boys in education. And with that opportunity, I think, comes both the aspiration and also the expectation of accomplishing something big professionally. And with that comes this pressure of, oh, I need to have a practical major in college so that I can have a successful career. And the reality is, nobody has any idea what jobs are going to exist in 10 or 20 or 30 years. And even if you tried to choose a practical major, you might miss the mark. And so I think the best thing you can do in college is to study something you're truly interested in and let your curiosity guide what you learn. And, of course, if you do that, you ought to build a set of thinking skills and communication skills that serve you well in your career. And my message to parents is, stop pressuring your kids to choose a practical major. Even if you look at the data from the last couple of decades, you know, if you look at software engineers, for example, of course they get an early advantage when it comes to their starting salaries. But by the time your kids are in their late twenties, English majors have actually caught up. And there's a premium on being able to explain your ideas, being able to think creatively, being able to communicate effectively. And so I think parents should back off when it comes to that kind of pressure.
- [48:53]
A
Yeah, I mean, I would just simply add, don't be shy and try new things. Have a lot of fun, and this is going to be an amazing time in your life. So go, learn. Learn through friends, learn through books, Learn through everything that is around you, and have a lot, a lot of fun.
- [49:12]
B
Okay, just a couple last things I want to get before we wrap. Malala, what's the most important lesson you've learned from your parents?
- [49:20]
A
My dad. I'm really proud of my dad because he showed to me what it means to be a feminist person. And he was a feminist man before he had even heard the word feminism. And what that means is just understanding the privileges that you have, understanding how society is limiting and restricting women from equal opportunities. Simple things like allowing his daughter to be in school was a major, major thing that he did differently for his daughter because a lot of parents were not doing that. When I became an activist at age 11 in Swat Valley, in that community, he did not stop me. And I'm often asked by people how was my story unique? I just remind them that there was nothing unique about me. The only thing unique was that my father was allowing me and the other girls who wanted to be activists were stopped by their fathers. So men can play a huge role in dismantling and challenging patriarchy. They can play a huge role in redefining gendered norms and expectations. They can be our allies as well. So, yeah, this is how I talk about my dad a lot. And the same way about my mom. You know, my mom and I have a tough relationship, but she's been such a strong and incredible woman. She restarted her education when we moved to the uk. So I'm just really, really proud of her that she's determined and she does not give up.
- [50:52]
B
That's amazing. Lala, I want to say, although I booed you earlier when you brought up astrology, I can't think of anything more worthwhile than cheering for the work that you do. I think you're an incredible role model for leading a meaningful life and also for leading a joyful life.
- [51:11]
A
This was so wonderful speaking to you. Thank you.
- [51:18]
B
Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans De La sue and Alison Layton Brown. Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon. The best 5G network in America.
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A
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Ooh, tiramisu.
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- [53:12]
A
One day, you know, we'll see if I can convince you on this whole astrology thing. But that's a conversation for another day.
- [53:18]
B
Not going to happen. Think again, Malala. Think again.
- [53:21]
A
Think again. Okay.