WorkLife with Adam Grant – ReThinking: Permission to Play with Jacob Collier (TED, Oct 28, 2025)
Episode Overview
In this engaging episode of ReThinking, Adam Grant sits down with Grammy-winning musician, arranger, and educator Jacob Collier for a live conversation at TED Headquarters in New York. The discussion orbits around Jacob’s audience-choir phenomenon and his philosophy on music, joy, creativity, and collective participation. Through playful demonstrations and rich anecdotes, Jacob explores the power of giving people “permission to play,” how music reveals fundamental aspects of being human, and why embracing both harmony and dissonance in art—and life—matters.
Key Themes & Discussion Points
1. The Origin of the Audience Choir and Permission to Play
[05:08] Jacob Collier discusses how his audience choirs began and the philosophy behind them.
- Everyone is a musician: Jacob believes all humans possess innate musicality and just need permission to participate, not musical qualifications.
- Early inspiration: He recalls watching his mother conduct orchestras and learning that the most important lessons weren’t about music but about inclusivity, leadership, and joy in bringing people together.
- “People don’t remember what you say, and people don’t remember what you do, but people remember how you make them feel.” — Jacob [06:20]
- Call and response: On stage, Jacob applies the “mass permissioning” he learned from his mother, turning any audience into a choir, regardless of size or skill.
2. Fostering Wiggletude: Playfulness as a Muscle
[07:00–09:20] Exploring how music reawakens playfulness and human connection.
- Wiggle theory: Jacob introduces his “wiggle theory” – the idea that people are born to be playful (“wiggly”) but society conditions us to be straight-laced.
- “It’s okay to wiggle…you can wiggle.” — Jacob [07:36]
- Collective effervescence: Adam connects Jacob’s choirs to Durkheim’s idea of “collective effervescence”: transcending oneself in a group moving toward a common purpose.
- “It’s like you’re a pixel in a big image… It’s a mass remembrance.” — Jacob [08:30]
- Supple vs. brittle: Jacob prefers “supple” audiences—open, flexible, and ready to follow spontaneity—contrasted with “brittle” crowds who are stiff and resistant to surprise.
3. The Power and Lessons of Musical Participation
[11:00–14:15] Music as a social equalizer and the lessons embedded in singing together.
- Diversity in participation: Music brings together all personality types, from outspoken “bloviators” to the shyest listeners (“there are shy people who are quite loud inside their minds”).
- Handling disruption: Jacob incorporates hecklers’ shouts into the choir, empowering rather than shaming—diffusing tension and creating inclusion.
- Culture and ownership: Adam discusses how culture is reflected when audience members self-police disruptions, showing ownership of group norms.
- “Singing has baked within it all these life lessons…You can’t really sing that way without listening, without empathy, without some courage and risk.” — Jacob [13:50]
4. Music, Play, and the Education System
[18:19–20:04] Unlocking adults' playfulness and challenging rigid systems.
- Reclaiming play: Jacob emphasizes how education and rigid achievement metrics “straighten the wiggly line,” stifling natural playfulness.
- “Teachers can make or break an imagination. We all need someone to say, ‘This thing you’re doing—that is of value.’” — Jacob [19:10]
- Flipping attention: Making music in choirs flips attention from solo focus to collective awareness. Participation keeps people supple to surprise.
5. Unpacking Universality in Sound and Music
[20:12–22:48] Universality of vocal bursts and building musical language.
- Vocal bursts: Adam and Jacob riff on the concept of “vocal bursts”—universal, instinctive sounds humans make (like “aww” at a cute baby), demonstrating that everyone has a musical toolkit.
- Audience as idea incubator: Jacob finds the best new sounds and ideas from audience participation, highlighting music’s communal nature.
6. Harmony, Dissonance, and Creative Tension
[22:48–26:35] Music as a metaphor for diversity, tension, and acceptance.
- Unison vs. harmony: Jacob distinguishes unison (all doing the same) from true harmony (pleasing arrangement of different sounds).
- Dissonance is valuable: Music teaches that leaning into controlled dissonance is essential—it’s emotional tension and release that create meaning.
- “If you control the dissonance, you have way more meaningful harmony than if you just play consonant stuff all the time.” — Jacob [25:35]
- Life lessons: These musical principles mirror how we should not be afraid of tension or diversity in life.
7. Musical Passion, Practice, and Success Without Charts
[31:30–37:55] Jacob’s approach to creativity, success, and skirting convention.
- Calling vs. obsession: Adam notes Jacob embodies “harmonious passion”—vital, self-driven joy, not obsessive compulsion.
- Deliberate play over practice: Jacob rejects regimented practice for playful immersion: “Skill is overrated; permission is vastly underrated.”
- Genre resistance: He intentionally resists fitting into one genre (“narrowing my aperture”) despite being pressured to pick a lane.
- Proud of not charting: Jacob sees value in not charting commercially while being Grammy-nominated.
- “To base the quality of your work on its popularity is one of the most base misunderstandings creators come up against.” — Jacob [36:12]
- Relationship over reach: Jacob prioritizes deep, lasting relationships with listeners over fleeting mass appeal.
8. Arranging and Subverting Expectations
[44:15–48:16] The art of arranging familiar music to build trust and surprise.
- Covers as trust-building: Early in his career, Jacob built trust by subverting expectations in well-known songs. Audiences are willing to be taken further from the familiar once trust is established.
- “If you know a song already, I can work with your expectation structure…then show how far you can take it.” — Jacob [45:25]
- Embracing the “punk” of arrangement: Even “harmonically irresponsible” arrangements are opportunities for creative risk.
9. Joy as an Act of Defiance
[48:16–50:04] Against the backdrop of uncertain times, Jacob champions the radical power of joy.
- Joy ≠ cheeriness: Collier distinguishes between superficial happiness and the deeper vitality of joy.
- “Music doesn’t discriminate at all. You can incorporate anything in music… it’s all in the cauldron of your life.” — Jacob [49:15]
- “I think of joy as about vitality. And now’s a good time for that.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “You just need permission. That always kind of stuck with me.”
— Jacob Collier [05:50] - “I think people are inherently emotional, and music has significant keys for getting into the heart of things.”
— Jacob Collier [07:09] - “Supple is a big word for me… brittle things strain and snap under pressure.”
— Jacob Collier [09:54] - “Skill is overrated in general in music. And I think permission is vastly underrated.”
— Jacob Collier [33:58] - “To measure yourself up against super competitive music and to base the quality of your work on the popularity is one of the most base misunderstandings creators come up against.”
— Jacob Collier [36:14] - “Joy is an act of defiance… I think of joy as about vitality.”
— Jacob Collier [48:40]
Lightning Round & Audience Q&A
[40:40] Quickfire questions:
- Dinner guest dream: “Stevie Wonder.” — Jacob
- Worst advice ever received: “Do the thing everyone wants me to do.”
- Recent rethinking: “That high resolution equals clarity. It doesn’t.”
[41:36] Q&A with Benj Pasek (of Pasek & Paul):
- Jacob talks about toggling between “conduit of creation” and “behind the scenes” roles, loving both accompanying others and shining himself.
- “We’re all collaborators… I extend collaborators’ limbs by growing as a human.” — Jacob [43:20]
[44:18] Famous Covers:
- Adam’s favorite is Jacob’s Grammy-winning “Flintstones” arrangement.
- Jacob demonstrates how arranging familiar songs is a trust exercise—subverting expectation to keep things exciting for both performer and audience.
Conclusion
This episode artfully explores the ways music can unlock collective joy, foster empathy, and help us “wiggle” out of the straightjackets of adult life. Jacob Collier’s philosophy—of granting permission, taking creative risks, welcoming dissonance, and seeking joy as a radical act—offers lessons not just for musicians, but for work, leadership, and life itself.
Key Timestamps
- [05:08]– Origin of the audience choir
- [07:36]– The wiggle theory
- [09:54]– Supple vs. brittle in music and life
- [11:47]– Different personality types in participation
- [13:21]– Culture and ownership among audiences
- [19:10]– Permission to play and the role of teachers
- [25:35]– Harmony, dissonance, and life lessons
- [31:30]– Calling and so-called “deliberate play”
- [36:14]– Not charting and rethinking success
- [44:18]– Arranging covers and building trust
- [48:40]– Joy as vitality and defiance
- [43:55]– Q&A with Benj Pasek
Jacob’s approach to music—permission over perfection, play over practice, joy as a vital force—reminds us of the importance of creative risk, inclusivity, and bringing our full, wiggly selves to whatever we do.