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Hi TED Podcast listeners. It's Elise Hu here from TED Talks Daily. Thanks for making our podcast part of your routine. We really appreciate it and we want.
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To make your favorite TED podcasts even better.
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Get to know you, our listeners, way better. Head to the episode description to find the link. Thank you again for listening and for taking the time to help our shows.
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This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wise, you can send, spend and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps and save up to 55% compared to major banks. Plus, wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallarta or sending Euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be Smart join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com learn more by visiting wise.com us compare T's and C's. Apply. You're listening to the piano, as played by Grammy award winning singer, songwriter, and educator, Jacob Collier. He's about to do something really special he does with live audiences and in this case, for podcast audiences too.
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You want to sing? You ready to sing?
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Yeah.
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La la la la la la la la la la la.
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I invited Jacob to join me on stage for a live recording of Rethinking at TED headquarters in New York. In front of an intimate audience, he got to showcase his favorite way with his call. In response, he invited us all to experience the power of making music for ourselves too. Hey, everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking my podcast with TED on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. So that crowd singing with Jacob at ted, maybe you could tell we're not exactly pros, but in the moment, Jacob transformed the whole audience into a choir. I've been a fan of Jacob since I first came across his work. He's a true innovator on stage and in studio. And these audience choirs he improvises during big concerts all around the world. Might be my favorite thing he does. So I had to ask him about it. So I have so many questions. I guess the first one is how did the audience choir start?
- [05:09]
B
The audience choir. So this is the idea that everyone in the world is a musician in a sense, that we will have this internal structure through which we can understand sound in the world, and that given permission, people want to participate. So I think the fascination began when I was a very, very small human. I was probably about one or two years old, and my earliest memories were of sitting in a chair and looking onto a stage and. And watching my mother conduct orchestras. So she's this kind of legendary conductor figure. But the lessons I saw at play on stage were not really foundationally musical lessons. They were human lessons. It's like a leadership model in a sense of mass permissioning, mass inclusivity, sort of radical sense of joy and passion, and also contour and shape and visual cues to a sonic language. So I watched this unfold. I thought, oh, I see. That's what music is for, you know? And then I grew up, and I never thought I'd be a conductor. It sort of sounded stuffy to me, but then I accidentally sort of became very, very inspired by this idea that when I stand on a stage, whether there's 50 of you here or 20,000 or whatever, that actually you can apply A lot of the same logic and same principles to giving a feeling to a room. In a sense, I think the lesson at the heart of what my mother taught me at that age, and she really showed me, rather than telling me it was like, this is a way the world can be is in line with that quote that you're probably familiar with, which is people don't remember what you say, and people don't remember what you do, but people remember how you make them feel. And music has this kind of hardwire straight to the heart of the line for that. And I think that my mother has this cool way of just wiggling into people's sense of humor and frees people from their own personal shackles and brings people together. So I think the audience choir is sort of standing on the shoulders of that. But the trick is you don't need qualifications. You kind of just need permission. And that always kind of stuck with me.
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A
When you talk about people remembering how you made them feel, how do you want everyone to feel after they participate?
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B
I think what I've learned is, however hard I try to design the feeling I want to give, it's basically impossible to say, you must feel this. I don't actually think that music is inherently emotional. I think people are inherently emotional. And I think that music has really significant keys for getting into the heart of the thing. But I think maybe the feeling I would hope people to feel is it's like, it's okay to wiggle. You know, like, it's. It's cool. You can wiggle. I sort of believe it's like a very young theory. It's like a week old or something. But the wiggle theory, this idea that people are actually born to wiggle and that we live in a straight line world and music is one of the greatest mechanisms we have of, like, remembering the feeling. Oh, yeah. I remember this feeling of wiggling around I had as a child. We all did. And these things, I think, wake up the inherent emotional channels that are everlastingly flowing through us as people. It was like tapping the channel and think, oh, yeah, I remember that now.
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A
Okay. I love it. So you want people to feel a sense of wiggletude.
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B
Wiggletude or wiggledom is the word for sure. Yeah, yeah.
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A
I'm gonna let you coin the words.
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B
Okay.
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So one of the other things that I guess I noticed as people were participating in the choir was it looked like what Durkheim called collective effervescence, where you get a group of people who are gathered together around a Common purpose with shared energy, and you feel like you're part of something larger than yourself.
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B
Yeah, I would agree. I think that's something that singing does automatically. Did any of you grow up in a. Like, in a choir? Did anyone sing in a choir as a child? Like, the feeling of that is so memorable. It's like you're a pixel in a big image. It's not like a main character scenario. It's like, okay, I'm one of many people. For example, in Latvia and Estonia, two places I've recently played, and where the audience choirs blew my mind. They have these song and dance festivals where you have 40,000 people on stage and 500,000 people in the audience. And, like, all the generations of your family will come and come through this thing and everyone will sing it. It's like a mass remembrance, I think, is what I would call it. Like, oh, I remember this. This is older than all of us. This is foundational to the bone of kind of what humans are built to do. Like, I think that what music does is it reveals what was already there, but you need it to sort of get. And I think that the collective inheritance thing is a beautiful, expensive term for it.
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A
Are you saying too many syllables?
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B
Yeah, maybe so, but. But yeah, there's. There's a gorgeousness about a group of people all being there for something that's beyond any one of those people that is just sort of commonly understood without words.
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A
You said in Latvia and Estonia, the audience choirs blew your mind.
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B
They did.
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A
What does that mean? Were they louder? Did they wiggle more? Like what?
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B
Yeah. So some audiences are really quiet and really accurate. Some audiences are really loud and wildly inaccurate. Some audiences are more in tune than others. But I think the wiggling thing is interesting because some audiences are stiff, and I think stiff is a separate axis from volume. You can have a loud, stiff crowd. They're kind of boring. So here's the thing with wiggling is being down to kind of follow something that wasn't planned. Audiences respond well to this in general. I think when there's something that feels spontaneous or is spontaneous. Some of my favorite concerts ever have been quiet audiences that are really supple. And I think supple is a big word for me in opposition to brittle in lieu of the wiggledom sort of axis. Because I think that brittle things and people and ideas and language will strain and snap under pressure. But supple people and language and crafts and sort of mechanisms tend to bend with the weather and the conditions and the pressures and things like that. So I try and be a supple dude in general, and I appreciate supple audiences where it's sort of like if something happens that's unexpected, rather than people going and sort of tightening up. People sort of go, all right, let's go over there. And my job is just to create the conditions where they feel it's safe to come with me, you know, and that's a good place to start.
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A
You must see a lot about personalities and also the norms and culture of a room when you ask them to jump in.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What do you learn?
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B
Well, music is an equalizer, and so you see all the personality types, but then it has this way of kind of going, you know, so, like the most extroverted main character people will be there, and so will the people who are so shy and don't want to participate.
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A
No, actually, we stayed home.
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B
Right, right. Yeah, right. That extreme. But I think even with shyness, there are flavors of being shy. There are shy people who see everything and they're just there, but they're seeing everything. Then there are shy people who are anxious, so they closed off, but actually it's quite loud inside their minds, you know? And then there are loud people who don't see anything because they can just see their own voice so big that they.
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A
Professional bloviators.
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B
Bloviators love it. And then there are energetic people who are large and see everything. Those are special audience members. I think we need all these people. We need this kind of diversity and in society, in a concert, my hope is that there's space for all those people. But I think there are moments where hecklers will shout or scream something, and there are a few ways to deal with this. Usually the people around them are just because they're so tasteful, they'll be like, we just don't do that here. Sorry, would you mind? And then if they persevere or whatever, then there are ways that I can deal with things. One of my favorite ways of dealing with something like that would just be to radically incorporate their idea. So if they're shouting something and then I get everyone to sing it, then it's sort of like. It has a funny power to sort of dissolve the person, and they actually feel really empowered and seen and then piped down. So it's like this funny job I have of constantly balancing and sort of making space for the different kinds of people who are going to show up, and then also at times being like, okay, and actually we're not going to. It's like the whole show, the show is not entirely call response. Like there are moments where I go really insular into my own world so that I can earn coming back out of it. But everyone's always invited. I think that's the hope.
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A
So interesting. So people often say that culture is what happens when the leader isn't in the room. I have a slightly different take on that, which is I think culture is whether people take ownership over the values and norms when the leader is not in the room. And the fact that you have people saying, hey, we don't do that around here is a sign that you've created a strong culture in a group of people who have never met each other or been in the same room together before.
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B
It's a funny thing to be proud of, but I'm proud of them. I think that the audience reflecting itself is interesting because actually I think people bring each other out, like when given those kinds of permissions to just go. And that's cool to me and I'm proud of that. Even the last show I played in Philly last night and the one before that, there were two quite similar venues and there were people. There was a tunnel between the stage and the parking lot and people walked through a tunnel. They were all singing. It made me emotional. I thought, wow, that's. It's beautiful. Because it's not just everyone singing for themselves. It's like singing has baked within it all these life lessons. Like, you can't really sing in that way without listening and without being inclusive and without having empathy and without being curious and without a little bit of courage and a little bit of risk. And all these things that I just think are important things to incorporate in life, they all exist there. So it was just like quite a moving occasion to see this colorfully dressed army of people walking through it. It was really sweet.
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A
You know, it made me think, when you go to see stand up comedy, you feel like you're participating because you're laughing out loud.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
And after watching that, I kind of feel like having people not sing at a concert is a little bit like telling them not to laugh at comedy, maybe.
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B
So I've actually recognized recently in how many comic things I've incorporated into my sort of artistic vernacular, especially when I'm on stage. It's almost like physical comedy. It's like, like, for example, if we split the room into two and I go. If you go, who, who.
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A
Who, who?
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B
And then. Right. So thank you. Thank you for replying me. All of that language is. Well, it has to be simple and it's physical. But a lot of it comes from humor in a funny way. Like, it's just funny. They go, who it's funny. And when this is scaled up to, like, many thousands of people, people take all sorts of really wild liberties. Like, another one of my favorite exercises is like, even just that I love the sound so much. That's. That's great, everyone. Well done. That sounds like a forest or something. And so. Or something. It's quite a singular sound.
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A
So.
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So over. Over the course of, say, a minute of doing that, people start, you know, contributing creatures of the wild. Like their own sort of like their own creatures made up animals and stuff. And that's so fun because every time someone does something, there'll be like this little ripple around them of people who laugh and then participate as well. So it's like this really interesting social experiment from my. I have the best seat in the house for this stuff. So it's a language built out of, like, the most basic building blocks of music. So everyone, for example, in the whole world inherently understands big and small, because we see it everywhere high and low. Everyone understands high and low. Everyone understands thick and thin or rough and smooth. It's a bit like the Bobo and Kiki thing, right? The idea that in every language on earth, Bobo and Kiki if unassigned to a spiky shape or a rounded shape. Everyone will assume that Bobo is the rounded shape and Kiki is the spiky one without any prompting.
- [16:43]
A
I love that you're dropping psychology knowledge.
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B
Yeah, well, I have to try my best. But there is something universal about some of these axes, and I think a lot about it. It's like, as we learn anything, music is a good example. Our kind of, like, resolution increases. It's like, okay, 8 bit, 16 30, 64 bit knowledge of this. And it starts with just like, really? If I demonstrate this, like, it starts with really just like. Everyone's heard this sound. Because when you're a child, it's like, that's your first thing. It's like. And you figure out a lot of the fundamental lessons, like, loud and quiet. You figure it out high and low. Like, okay, I'm mapping it out. So there are kind of like inherent things that when you start faffing, we would just wait.
- [17:23]
A
Does anyone know what the word faff means?
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B
That's so interesting. I thought everyone in the world would know.
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A
Are we doing it right now?
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B
Yeah. So faff is a British word that kind of means, like, if you faff about, it just sort of means you sort of muck about and mess around and sort of like, fill space. And it's kind of not distinct. It's not. It's not necessarily very intentional. It's just sort of like, oh, I'm just, you know, like, I'm just faffing. But I think faffing is like, yeah, there's something about the approach of just, like, what even is this that we actually really need to remember as people? Because especially as grownups, as adults, we get into a very rigid set of thinking that learning happens, like, when you concentrate, but if you break them down, it's like you can granularize these emotions, but they're kind of made out of bigger, simpler lumps, and you can chisel away and get to the heart of the matter. But as a musician, it's kind of my job to distill that language sonically and figure out what are some interesting things to say.
- [18:19]
A
Okay, I have at least four different directions I want to take this. Let's start with the first one, which is you're giving people permission to play. And this is especially powerful for people who are used to being too serious and taking themselves too seriously. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about why are we so eager to play as adults, and why does it just take this little invitation?
- [18:42]
B
I think as children, we know how to play. I think as we grow older, there are a number of things that essentially straighten the wiggly line. To extend the metaphor. I think the education systems are a huge part of it. The way that we are encouraged to measure ourselves against these very rigid systems, which are suited to a very particular way of being in the world, a very particular type of intelligence, and a particular positioning in culture, which kind of just narrows down the wiggledom somewhat and makes the path appear sort of clearer and more distinct and maybe more one directional. I think teachers are so important in this world because they have the power to kind of make or break an imagination, you know? And we all need people at a certain point to come along and say, this thing you're doing, Adam, this. This thing is of value. You should do more of that, you know? And I think that feels like part of my job to really understand what is it that stops people from feeling that freedom, or at least how do I unlock it? And I think that, yeah, I'm constantly interested in what are the ways that we can get people out of their own way and also be more awake to each other. It's like, listen to each other. Don't just listen to me. It's Another reason I love the choir so much is because it flips the direction of attention from like omni beam to. It's like your periphery opens up. And I think that keeps you more likely to be surprised and a little bit softer, a little bit more flexible, supple, whatever.
- [20:04]
A
I get the appeal of participating. What I would not have expected is how often your choirs go viral. People just want to watch these audience choirs happen. Why?
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B
I think people see a part of themselves in the experience. I also think that right now, examples of groups of people working together are just very prudent. It hits a nerve. It hits a nerve for me. If I see a group of people unified to a cause, it's like, isn't that something?
- [20:32]
A
I'm also intrigued by the way in which you enabled people to communicate with just these sounds that don't even mean anything, like ooh and ha. And I was thinking about our version of this in psychology. So I'm going to. Don't worry, you won't have to sing, but I'm going to ask you all to shout out in a second. Imagine you saw a really cute baby. What is the sound that you would make? On three. One, two, three. Okay, so those are called vocal bursts. They exist in every culture around the world and they're this song.
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B
Oh, that's a vocal burst.
- [21:02]
A
Yeah, that's a. So you were doing vocal bursts now what?
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B
I didn't know that.
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A
What's amazing though is that regardless of what language you speak, you make that aw sound when you see something that's wild. There are others. What if you see a delicious looking chocolate chip cookie? One, two, three, go. And then if you're me and you hate chocolate, you would say.
- [21:25]
B
Yeah.
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A
So those bursts are universal. I think it seems to me like you're unlocking other bursts that people don't know they have access to.
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B
That's a very cool exercise.
- [21:34]
A
And I think the only one I have. So.
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B
Yeah, I think that there are other ones that are the offshoots of those that are more compound or combinations of these things. Like, I think at a certain point you'd get to music probably.
- [21:45]
A
Yeah, I think you would. Although I'm just watching you do this thinking. Has Jacob been reading the research on vocal bursts? How does he know to do this?
- [21:53]
B
Right? Yeah. I don't know. I think when I observe something that hits or lands or works with a group, I'm always like, oh, I'll keep that one for later. I can think of specific concerts where I've done specific things for the first time. Yeah, one of these things. In fact, let's do it now again. And then someone in the crowd goes. And I was like, that's a good one. Now go, go. Isn't that a cool sound? It's really, really nice. So then it's like you keep going there and then. Yeah. So that in, in a big space. It's like a kind of psychedelic. It's kind of like you got the ocean, you got the rain and you got the whistling. Then animal sounds over here and you've got this stuff. It's wild off playing it in the round. But yeah, I'm always on the lookout for new things and sometimes the audience gives me the best ideas.
- [22:48]
A
So I want to talk a little bit about harmony.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Harmony has always been such a mystery to me in the sense that on the one hand it's supposed to be all of us coming together. On the other hand it's not identical sounds. It's supposed to be the pleasing arrangement of different tunes.
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B
Yeah.
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A
How do you think about getting people in harmony?
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B
So this is a great question. I want to start by making the differentiation between unison and harmony. So unison is everyone doing the same thing at once? So if everyone goes, ah, yeah, that's unison because you're all aligned. If I go right. We have two separate notes, each with their own thing, but they work together. So harmony is like the relationship between more than one thing happening at once. So now, you know, in music education we're taught these concepts of major, for example, and minor and dominant and diminished or augmented. And these have a lot of cultural kind of connotation. Like this sound is the fairy. Right.
- [24:01]
A
Wow.
- [24:02]
B
You know, everyone knows the feeling. This is kind of built out of what we call an augmented triad. Augmented means it's got bigger, Right. So this is a usual triad. And if I augment that triad, I'm stretching the top note up and it's like. So I think it's almost like the eyes widening thing is really happening. You've gone right? Yeah. Wow. Right. A diminished chord is what happens when you shrink a triad. Triad is a three note chord. 1, 2, 3. Dubinish chord is this sound. So, you know, it's literally in my mind, it's like, you know, that's kind of what's going on. And then you add onto that all the cultural kind of implications from nearly a thousand years of recorded music history on paper scores and more recently recorded mediums. You have this really, really vivid kind of language at play. And it's all built out of These basic intervals, like, if I play this into this interval, right? This is what we call a diminished second, if you want to give it a name. And this is a little bit less friendly. It's like. You know what I mean? It's like, this is what we call dissonance, right? And so you might say, well, that just sounds bad, and the other one sounds good. But the truth is, this can be absolutely beautiful to the point of devastating. There it is there, right? If you control the dissonance, you have way more meaningful harmony than if you just play consonant stuff all the time. So to go back to the original point, I guess, like, baked into music and the study of it is so many of the things that make us better people. But one of them is about not being afraid of dissonance. And actually, in music, if we lean into the dissonance and learn to control it, we have this huge, broad palette that's so much more meaningful than if we just take the pretty intervals and whatever. A lot of the reason why music moves us is because of all these little tensions and releases that we experience across the kind of path of a musical piece. It's controlled by all the things like dissonance and consonants and rhythm and time and repetition. But all these things exist in speech naturally, in a sense, and they exist in our culture, and they exist observationally in the world. So, again, it's no surprise that music has such an impact on us.
- [26:36]
A
I think creative tension makes beautiful music. Okay, bear with me on this. This is going to be a weird question, but I actually wonder if these skills are useful in everyday life. So let me give you an example.
- [26:46]
B
Yeah.
- [26:48]
A
Do you know the scene in Pitch Perfect where Rebel Wilson's character is asked, why do you have Bumper's number? She goes, oh, and just dodges the question by singing it. So Alison and I have this little, I guess, routine where whenever she's upset about something trivial, I'll just go, aw, try to make it go away. And it's actually. It's a different way of resetting the conversation than saying, hey, this is not a big deal.
- [27:16]
B
Yeah.
- [27:18]
A
I'm just envisioning you in an argument with someone and going, like, I'm sorry, could you just say who? Huh? Do you use these skills at all?
- [27:26]
B
I can't say I do it as on the nose as that, but I love it so much that you do that. The thing that came to my mind when you said that is those classrooms where the teacher will go, you know, until all the kids are clapping at the same time and then everyone's kind of got their attention. I think there are ways of aligning people with such cues, but I think there is a way that music can cut through your defenses and just remind you, oh yeah, wait, I have a body, remember? But yeah, that seems like one that I'm going to try when I get home.
- [27:53]
A
Try it at your own risk.
- [27:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [27:57]
A
This show is supported by A Crucible Moments, a podcast about when high stakes decisions and uncertainty collide, shaping the journeys of the world's most influential startups. I'm fascinated by the inflection points that determine whether companies are built to last or doomed to die. Sequoia Capital calls them Crucible Moments, and their podcast takes you inside these defining decisions. Season three features some remarkable stories. Mobile gaming giant Supercell didn't start out making mobile games. Autonomous drone company Zipline began as a robotic toy. These pivots weren't obvious, they were born from conviction during uncertainty. Go behind the scenes of companies like Stripe, Palo Alto Networks, Klarna, and more. You'll hear about the stumbles, the leaps of faith, and the strategic bets that made these companies break through. Whether you're building something of your own or just curious about how great organizations are formed, there's real insight here. Tune in to Sequoia's new season of Crucible Moments to discover how some of the most transformational companies of the modern era were built. Crucible Moments is available everywhere you get your podcasts and@CrucibleMoments.com go listen to Crucible Moments today. This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wise, you can send, spend and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps and save up to 55% compared to major banks. Plus, wise won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos in Puerto Vallarta or sending Euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be Smart join the 15 million customers who choose Wise. Download the Wyze app today or visit wise.com learn more by visiting wise.com us compare T's and C's apply Morning Zoe. Got donuts.
- [29:46]
B
Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?
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A
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you.
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B
Teach me so Dana oh no, I'm not really prepared.
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I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get.
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The new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
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Wow.
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Impressive.
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Let me try T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro.
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Because they've got the best network. Nice. Jeffrey, you heard them. T Mobile is the best place to.
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Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible trade in in any condition. So what are we having for launch?
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B
Dude, my work here is done.
- [30:27]
A
The 24 month bill credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credit same and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancelled Finance Agreement iPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Ooklip's B test intelligence data 1H 2025 visit t mobile.com so in the spring when we met, there was something that shocked me after you performed. Which is, I think it was about midnight, people started gathering and I think there was a band playing and most of the professional musicians I've seen at events when that happens, they leave. Like I did my gig, I'm out. And you looked so excited to sit down at the piano and just start jamming.
- [31:12]
B
Yeah.
- [31:12]
A
And I know you were out past 2am just improvising with amateur musicians and it was a life highlight for some of them. Why is the first question and then the second question is it looks to me like you have a calling for music and I'd love to hear you talk about that.
- [31:31]
B
It's so easy to be an island. I think and think I'm going to do my thing and I'm going to disappear. But especially in events like that, when I think it's cool to muck in and I recognize an opportunity to just have some fun. And it didn't even cross my mind to go to sleep, to be honest. There's no reason beyond that. What was the second question you asked again?
- [31:47]
A
So it looks and you can see it now too. I think you have a calling.
- [31:51]
B
No, it's all a ruse.
- [31:54]
A
Nobody's that good of an actor.
- [31:56]
B
I'm sorry. Yeah, I have a deep hatred for and scorn for music, but I think that I was brought up to see the world in a quote unquote musical way. And that's not to say, oh, I hear the car horn and I'm like.
- [32:14]
A
Wiggling in the street.
- [32:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. Music everywhere. It's sort of more, I think it's More. I was brought up to sort of have just to be awake to stuff. Like, I enjoyed observing the world. It's like that Lao Tzu quote. I'm trying to compete with you here, really. But there's that beautiful quote where Lao Tzu says something about, you know, the rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. And once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare, you know, and it's like, well, words exist because of meaning. And once you've got the meaning, you can forget the words. And then he says something like, where's the man who's forgotten words that I may speak with him? And I think music is one of those rare languages. Where it doesn't end up being rendered as merely the symbols. You can't really mistake the symbols for the thing. In the same way you can with a lot of the languages that we perceive. Because it just is the thing. It's the verbiest language I know. Before you've thought about it, it's already touched you. And that's kind of cool. So I think when I think about, like, a musical upbringing, I think I was brought up to be pretty energetically aware of, like, how I was feeling and where I was feeling it and how to get the flow going. So that feels like maybe I would even say my primary skill set over and above anything remotely technical. I think skill is overrated in general in music. And I think permission is vastly underrated. But I think that most of my skill set at this point is about creating the right kind of, like, internal weather conditions as best I can. To just see a clear channel and go in that direction.
- [33:42]
A
Clearly, it looks like what psychologists like Valorand would call harmonious passion. As opposed to obsessive passion.
- [33:48]
B
Well, that aligns with my musical interests.
- [33:50]
A
Yes. That's why I thought I would reference it. But I think it also, then it seems to be really conducive to deliberate play. As opposed to this very rote. I'm going to force myself to do deliberate practice.
- [34:02]
B
Yes. Yeah. It's funny you bring up practice. Because those of us who are musicians often get plagued by this word when we're starting out. Have you practiced? How long do you practice for? Or do you practice? But I think that I. Well, I was never really told to practice as a child, which is probably the best thing to ever happen to me. But I was never good at practicing or particularly regimented at all. Though if I was interested enough in something, I would. There would be no hesitation. I would spend 10 hours in that day Exploring it. But there was. There just wasn't that pressure that I didn't. I didn't have to be good at music to get validation from my family. I just had to be good at being Jacob. And I. I figured pretty early on that music would play out some role in that. But I never. I didn't really know what I wanted to do other than I had a sense it would have to do with music and communication.
- [34:46]
A
I know you were good at either of them.
- [34:47]
B
Yeah. I ended up doing this hybrid thing of really incorporating so many different kinds of music and things, and the number of people who said, you know, when are you going to pick a lane? You know, what's your genre? Be helpful if you just picked one, because then we could put you in this little box. And I was. I was always so conscious about not doing that, and it was such a deliberate kind of swerve that I remember being like, I'm never gonna narrow my aperture in that way.
- [35:13]
A
Well, this goes to something that you've talked about that I found surprising, which is, I understand you're the only artist to have never charted, but also been twice nominated for album of the year, and you said you were proud that you've never charted.
- [35:28]
B
Yeah.
- [35:29]
A
Why?
- [35:29]
B
That's very ticklish to me, that fact. It was just so thrilling to see that album nominated. I couldn't believe it. Alongside, literally the biggest artists on the planet. You know, it was Taylor and Billy and Sabrina and Chapel roan and charli xcx and jacob and beyonce and jacob and andre 3000. And I just couldn't. I just couldn't believe it. And I was so proud and excited for the community of people that that album represented, which was so broad. I mean, there were musicians from every continent of the world who contributed. You know, there was Anushka Shankar and Varijashri Vilnagopal from India and Camilo from South America, and Esper, this Korean supergroup, and a bunch of audience choirs from Australia. They were the heart of the album, opening and closing the album, and the Metropolo cast from Europe and a host of amazing gospel musicians, Kirk Franklin and all of his singers, and this young student choir called the Aeoluns of Oakwood University. And then, like, Chris Martin and Shawn Mendes and Tori Kelly and John Legend and all those people too. So it was just a. It was such an unmakeable album. It was such an ambitious thing for me to try and do. It was exciting, and I'm proud in a sense. Like, you know, it's weird to say, I'm proud not to have charted. It's almost pretentious. But I would say that I'm relieved that there's a musical climate in this day and age where an artist doesn't need to chart to be recognized in that way. Because I think the metrics of success are changing so fast. And I think to measure yourself up against this super competitive music and to base the quality of your work on the popularity of your work is one of the most base misunderstandings that all of us who make creative work come up against at a certain point.
- [37:00]
A
Popularity is such a poor proxy for impact.
- [37:03]
B
It is. Exactly.
- [37:05]
A
It is ironic, though, given the widespread appeal of your work, to not be on a chart. Do you know how many people are listening and watching?
- [37:11]
B
Right, right.
- [37:12]
A
What's wrong with the chart?
- [37:13]
B
Yeah, it's interesting though, because I think I'm excited by the idea of the long arc as an artist, the idea that these kinds of relationships I'm building with my audience members now, I hope will last a lifetime. And I'm much more interested in that than I'm interested in sort of getting a bunch of reach. And it's like, oh, I reach lots of people. It's like, to what end, you know, did you engage them or did you move them? And then the question becomes, well, how do you move someone? What's the difference between moving someone and engaging someone? And I think the only real way you can move someone is by being someone. You have to just be a person, like the actual person that you are, kind of like imperfections and all, and really show it. And I think that there's literally no other way of moving somebody.
- [37:55]
A
This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. If you're a small business owner, work rarely stops. When the day ends, your business is always on. And when it's time to hire, you need a partner who's just as committed. That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes hiring simple. Post your job for free and share it with your network. Their new feature even helps write job descriptions and gets your posting in front of the right candidates with deep insights. Want more reach? Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. Here's what matters most. Quality. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn say it's helped them find high quality candidates. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring and find your next great hire today. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com worklife that's LinkedIn.com worklife to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Claude AI. I'm always looking for patterns, whether it's across decades of research or in the daily challenges we face at work. Recently, I've been using Claude to help me dig deeper into complex questions that don't have simple answers. Instead of just pulling random studies, Claude finds connections across multiple sources I might not have spotted myself. It's like having a research partner who can synthesize findings from 50 plus papers and show me the gaps in my thinking. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. Ready to tackle bigger problems? Sign up for Claude today and get 50% off Claude Pro when you use my link. Claude AI Worklife. That's Claude AI Worklife right now for 50% off your first three months of Claude Pro. That includes access to all the features mentioned in Today's episode. Claude AI Worklife. Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good. You look the same.
- [40:10]
B
But with this camera, everything looks better.
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A
Especially me.
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B
You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.
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A
Selfies check, please with Verizon.
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B
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro. Designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever. Plus a new iPad and Apple One. No trade in needed. Offer ends November 5th with a new line on Unlimited Ultimate Best 5G Tours. Route Metrics THETA, United States, 2020, 25. All rights reserved. Additional terms apply for all offers. See verizon.com for details.
- [40:38]
A
All right, we're going to go to the audience first. A lightning round.
- [40:40]
B
Cool.
- [40:41]
A
You ready for this?
- [40:41]
B
Yeah.
- [40:42]
A
I'm going to hold you to it.
- [40:43]
B
Yeah.
- [40:43]
A
Okay. Who would you most want to have dinner with?
- [40:45]
B
Stevie Wonder.
- [40:46]
A
That was fast. Okay. Worst advice you've ever gotten.
- [40:50]
B
Do the thing that everyone wants me to do.
- [40:53]
A
Something you've changed your mind about or rethought lately.
- [40:56]
B
That high resolution equals clarity, and it doesn't. Ooh.
- [41:02]
A
You've elevated verbs several times tonight. Do you have something against nouns?
- [41:10]
B
No, nouns are fine.
- [41:13]
A
You know, the great philosopher Homer Simpson said that Verbing, weirds, language.
- [41:19]
B
Verbing, weirds, language.
- [41:20]
A
Yep. Loved it.
- [41:22]
B
What about nouning?
- [41:23]
A
I've never heard that verb. Touche, audience we have some mics coming around. If you raise your hand, we will not ask you to sing. Okay. We can go to Nicole.
- [41:34]
B
Hi, I'm curious.
- [41:36]
A
In addition to children and babies, do you find inspiration for wiggliness when you look out in the world?
- [41:44]
B
I mean, you see it everywhere. You see it like if you look at any place in the natural world is wiggly, constantly wiggly. It's wiggly on the ground level, wiggly on the horizon, wiggly. And the leaves and the trees in the sky. And like, there aren't really any rigid lines in nature. Even something like bamboo will just bend with the wind. But it all applies to life, right? You can't just be slop all over the floor. Like there's no form. I mean, you can if you want, but it's not interesting, just as it's not interesting to be clinically perfect and grid based. So it's usually like in the tension between the wiggly and the non wiggly. That's where the life is.
- [42:17]
A
I feel like I might have to cold call one or two people.
- [42:20]
B
Do it.
- [42:21]
A
Is Benjamin Pasek here? Okay, so can we give you a mic for a second? We have another extremely talented musician in the audience. If you've seen the Greatest Showman or. Dear Evan Hansen, this is Pasek of Pasek and Paul. I would love to hear the two of you talk a little bit. Hi.
- [42:36]
B
Hi, Jacob. I'm a big fan of yours. Oh, it's so nice to meet you. I guess my question for you is how did you decide that you wanted to be the conduit of your creation?
- [42:48]
A
I work behind the scenes, so I write things for characters and I kind of have invisibility.
- [42:53]
B
I'm curious when you decided or when you found that it was advantageous to be the vessel. Because that's a thing that I have always resisted. Yeah, I don't necessarily always feel like the main character. Like, for example, last year I did this arrangement of a song called Bridge Over Troubled Water. And Tori Kelly and John Legend and Yeba all sing a verse. And I don't sing a verse. I just accompany their verses. And I really like that. I really like that as a setup because I think that a lot of my skill set is actually more about giving context to someone to really shine than actually also being the one who has to shine. And I love Shining. But I think there are two sides to it. The first album I made was literally made by only me, but I don't think of it as being something I made by myself. I think of it as like, everyone in my whole life was a collaborator, and all my inspirations were collaborators. And I'm just, like, extending their limbs by growing as a human. You know what I mean? It's like this constant. We're all collaborators in that way. So. Yeah. The short answer is, I think I go from your side of the fence to the performer side of the fence every day, and I'm kind of okay with it.
- [43:55]
A
Jacob, can we send you to the keyboard for a second?
- [43:57]
B
Yeah.
- [43:57]
A
That actually reminds me of something that I wanted to add. Are you taking requests?
- [44:00]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [44:02]
A
I think part of the way that you've managed that tension is by doing a lot of covers of other people's music, as opposed to saying, I'm always gonna do my own thing.
- [44:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:12]
A
I think of all your covers, I have to say my favorite might be the Flintstones.
- [44:16]
B
Oh, really?
- [44:16]
A
Yeah. Can you. Can you do a version of it for us?
- [44:18]
B
I can. I mean, so I did this absolutely bananas arrangement of the Flintstones theme tune, which actually won me a Grammy. And it's. It's so. I mean, it's like, truly unplayable. But as a theme song, it's one of the best because it's so repetitive and strong and memorable and all this stuff. Do you know this song?
- [44:37]
A
Yeah.
- [44:38]
B
Should we sing it all together? This might be a fun way of doing this. So this is your first note. Flintstones. Right. Flintstones. Okay, we're gonna go. Yeah, let's, let's. Let's snap on the offbeats like this. Yeah. Flintstones 3 floor. Flintstones meet the Flintstones they're the modern Stone Age family From the town of Ferrari There are things right out of.
- [45:02]
A
History.
- [45:21]
B
That'S the Flintstones. Yeah.
- [45:25]
A
It'S.
- [45:26]
B
It's one of the more kind of capacious songs to arrange because this chord progression is old as the hills. Like, we all. We've all heard this a million times. So the ways in which you can subvert that are incredibly fun. So my arrangement starts with. I think it sort of goes. And you're like, where the hell is the time? First of all. And it's actually here off the bat, like, I'm already subverting your expectation. This is one of the reasons I love arranging on people's songs, because if you know a song already, then I can work with your expectation structure that exists within you already. It's like maybe a song like Somewhere over the Rainbow. Do we know the song? So everyone knows Somewhere with the Rainbow. You go somewhere over the rainbow.
- [46:25]
A
Way.
- [46:25]
B
Up high If I do that, you probably think something's. Something's off because it goes way up high, right? Way up high. But if I go way up high, what's a different color than what I'm used to? There's a land that I heard of once in a lord of mine Think, oh, now we're in a different world, right? What I play with is locality. It's like you were here and now you're here, and now you're here and you're here, and. And you can do this in so many different ways. But, yeah, I love taking a song that everyone knows and showing how far you can take it and for it still be. To be familiar to you. And I think it's something that it was. It was my first. It was. The first thing I did as a musician in the world was do this. Like, I did, like, isn't she lovely? And I did PYT and don't you worry about a thing and all these things. And I was harmonically irresponsible. You know, it has to be said, like, it was so far away from the song. But then I got an email from Quincy Jones, and he said, what have you done to this song, you fool? And we became friends, partly. That's kind of how it happened, actually, because I was so enamored by taking the language beyond what was sort of usual. And I think that there was something about the attitude of that that Quincy thought was kind of punk. And I think if I'd gone off the bat and was just like, okay, I'm gonna play Jacob's songs only and you're gonna listen to it, I think I would have had a much harder time building the trust with people, actually, because I think that I developed the trust by walking that line between the thing that people expect and don't expect. But, yeah, arranging other people's music is a great place to build trust and break it.
- [48:17]
A
Okay. I think the overwhelming reaction that I've had to you in the last few months is I want to put you in every room that I go in. And I was trying to figure out why, and I was reminded of a great line from Bono when he said that joy is an act of defiance. And the contrast between our. What some people might call dark or uncertain or turbulent times and the unapologetic joy that you bring into a room is there's something really magical about it. And I just. I'd love to hear you just say a little bit about that.
- [48:53]
B
Oh, well, thank you. Is the main thing I want to say. I Do think joy is an act of defiance. I think that joy is misunderstood because I think people mistake joy for, like, cheeriness or like, happiness or. But joy, to me is about being alive. And I think one of the things that I've learned actually most from music about life is that music doesn't discriminate at all. You can incorporate anything in music. It can be the dirtiest, gnarliest, most disturbing experience or the most menial, meaningless piece of fluff, you know, and it's like, cool, no questions asked. It's in the cauldron of your life. And then you get to pull out of the cauldron things that matter to you. And so I think of joy. For me, I think of joy as about vitality. Like, I'm feeling vital. And I think now's a good time for that because there are days, all of us experiencing right now, where it's harder to find that thread and think, what are we living for actually? But it's always just one step away. And sometimes it's about, ah, that single thing, that note, it flips you out of the argument and into your life again. And that's like, what it's all about.
- [50:04]
A
Love that. I'm going to record you doing the notes and play them because they work much better than when I try. But thank you, Jacob. Thanks, everyone.
- [50:12]
B
Thanks, everybody.
- [50:26]
A
Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale, sue and Alison Layton Brown.
- [50:56]
B
If anyone in here has ever worked with AI, then you'll know about this thing called top K, which basically lets in more chaos. And I think that me, as a large language model that I am, we all are, I think a lot about ways of making my top K greater or my temperature higher to sort of like, encourage me to be more chaotic. Because the more chaos I get as an input, the more interesting my output will be.
- [51:16]
A
Wow. Jacob Collier saying I am a stochastic parrot was not on my bingo card for tonight. Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.
- [51:33]
B
Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?
- [51:36]
A
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana.
- [51:43]
B
Oh, no, I'm not really prepared.
- [51:45]
A
I couldn't possibly at t mobile get.
- [51:48]
B
The new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [51:54]
A
Wow.
- [51:55]
B
Impressive.
- [51:56]
A
Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [52:02]
B
Nice. Jeffrey, you heard them. T Mobile is the best place to.
- [52:05]
A
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible trade in in any condition. So what are we having for launch?
- [52:12]
B
Dude, my work here is done.
- [52:14]
A
The 24 month build credit is on experience beyond four well qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credit send and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel Finance Agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs $1099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 225 Visit T mobile.com this.
- [52:32]
B
Episode is brought to you by Capital One.
- [52:35]
A
Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi agentic AI.
- [52:39]
B
They already deployed one.
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A
It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping using self reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks. It doesn't just help buyers find a car they love, it helps schedule a test drive, get pre approved for financing and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive and deployed. That's how they stack.
- [53:02]
B
That's technology.
- [53:03]
A
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