WorkLife with Adam Grant (TED)

Episode: ReThinking – Talking People Out of Hate

Guests: Daryl Davis (musician and activist), Jeff Schoep (former neo-Nazi leader)
Date: November 18, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the power of curiosity, dialogue, and persistence in helping people abandon hate-based ideologies. Adam Grant is joined by Daryl Davis, the Black jazz musician renowned for talking hundreds of KKK members and white supremacists out of hate, and Jeff Schoep, former commander of the largest neo-Nazi organization in the U.S., who credits his transformation to, in part, his relationship with Daryl. They explore the psychology of hate, what it takes to make real change, and how respectful engagement—not confrontation—is often the real catalyst for transformation.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of Curiosity and Purpose (02:32–14:00)

• Daryl’s Upbringing:
  Daryl describes his global childhood as the son of American diplomats. With formative years spent abroad among diverse classmates, he returned to the U.S. to face racism directly for the first time at age ten.
• First Encounter with Hate:
  Daryl was attacked during a Cub Scouts parade in Massachusetts, leading to his parents' first explanation of racism—a concept previously alien to him.
• Driving Question:
  “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” became Daryl’s life-long quest.
• Curiosity Over Fury:
  “For me, it wasn't courage as much as it was curiosity. I want to see how these people think. So rather than get furious, I got curious.” — Daryl Davis (03:11)

2. Approaching White Supremacists: Curiosity as Diplomacy (11:16–13:26)

• Daryl’s diplomatic influence shaped his style. He seeks understanding, not confrontation, paralleling diplomatic missions: “I just absorbed it. So for me, it wasn't courage as much as it was curiosity.” (11:42)

3. Jeff Schoep’s Radicalization and Departure (16:15–21:24)

• Family & Historical Roots:
  Jeff’s family background involved relatives who fought for Hitler, yet, he emphasizes, his family discouraged extremism.
• Personal Choice:
  Jeff independently sought out the movement at 18, drawn by revisionist narratives.
• Humanizing Moment:
  Meeting Daryl (initially without realizing who he was) disrupted Jeff’s expectations.
  “We were getting along too well... Then all of a sudden, I pounded my fists on the table and said, 'I will fight to the last bullet for my people.'... Darryl doesn't escalate, he just goes and just continues the conversation.” — Jeff Schoep (19:55)
• Impact of Daryl’s Story:
  Hearing Daryl’s childhood account deeply unsettled Jeff. “If this ideology... is causing that kind of pain to somebody, like, how is that... noble?” — Jeff Schoep (20:12)

4. Seeds of Change: Motivational Interviewing & Cognitive Dissonance (22:26–35:09)

• Indirect Change:
  Both guests emphasize that change must be self-driven:
  “We don't convert people... I did not even convert one of them. Yes, I am the impetus for over 200 to convert themselves.” — Daryl Davis (26:30)

• Motivational Interviewing:
  Adam frames much of Daryl’s work as a textbook example: get curious, ask, “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?”

• Cognitive Dissonance in Action:
  Darryl recounts confronting a Klan leader’s racist beliefs by turning his logic around—creating a moment of discomfort and reflection that ultimately led to the man's departure from the Klan (32:15–35:09).

  “I didn't attack his reality. I gave him another perception. So that caused the cognitive dissonance, especially when the shoe was on the other foot.” — Daryl Davis (35:09)

• Universal Human Needs:
  Daryl lists five core values that can resonate in adversarial situations: love, respect, fairness, truth, and being heard (35:42).

5. Not Everyone Changes—And That’s Okay (36:46–38:43)

• Limits to Transformation:
  Some people never change, but Daryl doesn’t give up—he moves them “down the list of priorities.”
  “A missed opportunity for conversation is a missed opportunity for reconciliation.” — Daryl Davis (46:51)
• Respecting Rights, Not Ideologies:
  “I don't respect what they are saying, but I respect their right to say it...” — Daryl Davis (38:09)

6. Strategies and Advice for Change (Lightning Round) (42:15–46:51)

• Worst Advice:
  • “To argue, to escalate.” — Jeff Schoep (42:15)
  • “If you don’t like something, ignore it... racism is a cancer. If you ignore it, it metastasizes and spreads.” — Daryl Davis (42:18)
• Dealing with Triggers:
  “If I'm letting this person get me angry, that costs energy. That's giving them my energy.” — Jeff Schoep (43:17)
  • Daryl: If you’ll be triggered by hate speech, don’t go; know your limits.
• Dinner with Opposites:
  Both would invite leaders of polar political factions to envision national healing.
• Change Requires Support:
  Jeff emphasizes not abandoning family or friends who are involved in hate groups—leave the door open (“Doing that gives them an opportunity to know that there's a door or a window open for them.”) (44:48)
  • Daryl: “Find your line.” Decide where you can meaningfully engage—front line, back line, sideline, online—but engage nonetheless. (45:29)
  • Adam adds: “Find your question” that opens rather than shuts down dialogue.

7. Memorable Quotes

On Self-Change

“Real change has to come from the heart and from the mind. So the person, individual has to do it themselves.” — Jeff Schoep (24:32)

On Perseverance

“When two adversaries are talking, they're not fighting. They may be disagreeing... but at least they're talking. It's when the conversation ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence.” — Daryl Davis (46:51)

On Violence

“You cannot beat the Nazi out of a Nazi by punching him or her in the face.” — Daryl Davis (48:55)
“Not one person ever left by getting punched in the face and in fact every time there was violence that entrenched people further.” — Jeff Schoep (48:59)

Key Takeaways

• Curiosity, not judgment, disrupts hate-based ideologies.
• Change is not instant. It’s a slow, sometimes years-long, process requiring patience, empathy, and repeated conversation.
• Change is internal. You can’t force someone out of hate; you can only plant seeds and create cognitive dissonance.
• Respect people’s right to express their views, as a means to open dialogue—even with those who offend you.
• Keep doors open for those entrenched in extremism, so that when they’re ready, there’s a way back.
• **Everyone can help—to the degree they feel safe and able—by finding the right “line” or role for themselves in combating hate.
• Violence and confrontation reinforce extremist beliefs; connection and conversation sow doubt and the possibility of reconciliation.

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:32] Daryl’s background, first experience with racism, formative question
• [11:42] Diplomacy, curiosity over confrontation
• [16:34] Jeff’s radicalization and family history
• [18:04] The mindset inside a hate movement
• [19:55] Pivotal meeting between Daryl and Jeff
• [20:12] Emotional impact of Daryl’s story on Jeff
• [22:54] The psychology of real change
• [26:30] Motivational interviewing, not conversion
• [32:15] Cognitive dissonance in practice (analogies with Klan leader)
• [35:42] Universal human needs as a bridge
• [36:46] When change isn’t possible—shifting priorities, not giving up
• [42:15] Lightning round: strategies for difficult conversations
• [44:48] Advice for families, “find your line,” “find your question”
• [46:51] The role of continued conversation in reconciliation
• [48:55] Punching Nazis doesn’t work: the real limits and harms of violence

Overall, this episode delivers a moving exploration of how dialogue, patience, and a willingness to listen—even when it's hardest—can disrupt the most entrenched forms of hate and create opportunities for remarkable change.