Podcast Summary: WorkLife with Adam Grant

Episode: ReThinking: The George Washington story you haven’t heard with Ken Burns (Part 1)
Date: January 6, 2026
Host: Adam Grant (with frequent interjections from an interviewer/co-host)
Guest: Ken Burns

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging conversation between Adam Grant and legendary documentary filmmaker Ken Burns, centering on the complexity of George Washington and the American Revolution. Burns shares insights from his latest multi-part documentary on the Revolution, challenging the sanitized, mythic images of Washington and the founding era. Together, they explore the psychological and moral complexities of historical leaders, the necessity of balancing nuance with moral standards, and the importance of confronting—rather than erasing—paradox in our national stories.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Pitfalls of Biography and the Value of Complexity

• Ken Burns opens with:
  • "All biography is failure. Because even as you know in your own life, the people who are closest to us are in part inscrutable. Even to us. And how could we presume to reach back 250 years and say, aha, I now have George Washington." (01:57)
  • Burns argues that Washington—and by extension, all major historical figures—are more complicated and interesting than their public images or classroom myths.
  • He asserts, referencing a literal neon sign in his editing room: "It's complicated." (05:54)

Storytelling: One Plus One Equals Three

• Explaining his approach to narrative, Burns says:
  • "Stories are themselves this possibility where the whole could be greater than the sum of the parts… The only thing that can [change someone’s mind] is a good story." (04:35)
  • Adam connects this to psychology's "binary bias," where people simplify history and people into good/bad binaries. Burns seeks to restore the full three-dimensionality.

Rewriting the Story of George Washington

• Why revisit Washington?
  • Burns: “Because we don’t know it. … Right after the Revolution, he’s just deified. … We make a joke about where Washington slept. It’s really effing important … to the fact that you and I are able to talk to one another today.” (09:36)
  • He challenges the myth-making (cherry tree, the sanitized hero) with the actual complexity – Washington was "the glue" amid a bloody civil war, a nation-dividing struggle where even “two brothers, one on the British, one on the American side” could face each other in battle. (09:36–14:57)

The Flawed Hero

• Washington’s Contradictions:
  • Burns presents Washington as both essential and deeply flawed:
    • “He owned hundreds of human beings. He knew that slavery was wrong. … At his deathbed, but way too late, he freed them.”
    • At the same time, “He gives up his power twice … he is the glue … that held this country together.” (05:54)
    • "We do not have a country without George Washington, period, full stop. He's a deeply flawed human being." (05:54)
• Heroism Defined:
  • He emphasizes the Greek view of heroism as a “war within someone between their strengths and their weaknesses.” (05:54)
  • “This idea of perfection is ridiculous. This is what makes a good story.” (05:54)

Servant Leadership and Reluctance

• Washington’s Reluctance as a Strength:
  • “He sees this cause as not about him. … People are talking about us. They're talking about you and me. … This idea: we're making this country not for a day, but for generations.” (15:30)
  • Adam and Ken discuss research suggesting that “when leaders arrive at the mantle with a little bit of I'm not sure that I want to be in charge, they end up being more effective,” because they empower others. (20:43)
  • Burns: “What you see ... is a kind of modesty, a kind of reticence, a kind of humility. … He is able to pick subordinate talent, unafraid that they may be better at it than him. In many cases, they are.” (21:19)
  • Memorable Leadership Example: After the war, when facing a potential mutiny over lack of pay, Washington tries to read a letter, pulls out his spectacles and says, “Oh, you see, I've grown old, gray and nearly blind in the service of my country.” The mutiny dissolves. (21:19)

Holding Moral Contradictions

• Slavery and Hypocrisy:
  • When asked about Washington freeing enslaved people only at his death, Burns is blunt: “You can't. It's morally hypocritical, period. But then again, if you're expecting perfection, then what do you get? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.” (33:28)
  • He quotes Annette Gordon Reed: “How could you do something if you knew it was wrong? That is the human question for all of us.” (33:28)
  • Burns resists both “presentism” (judging entirely by modern standards) and moral relativism, arguing for “forgiveness, tolerance, understanding, reconciliation.” (33:28, 36:06)

The Importance of Embracing Nuance

• Adam Grant challenges:
  • “...this is a slippery slope into moral relativism … part of the way that society progresses is by looking at past standards and saying those are unacceptable by current expectations, and we need to keep raising the bar. How do you reconcile those two views?” (35:33)
• Burns responds:
  • “Your description of it is a moral relativism. You just put into a binary. … It's all a shade of gray. … There is a human progress that takes place. And I do not believe in presentism that is helpful, nor … that we let people off the hook for being men of their times. … These are deeply flawed individuals who also [are] spectacularly heroic, and they can coexist in the same person.” (36:06)

Why We Hide Flaws in Our Heroes

• The tension of storytelling:
  • Burns invokes John Keats’s concept of “negative capability”—Shakespeare’s genius for holding tension between a person’s strengths and weaknesses, and not deciding for the audience, but allowing the contradictions to enrich the story. (38:28)
  • “The art was in that tension. … The whole [is] greater than the sum of the parts.” (38:28)

Reflections on Other Revolutionaries

• Ben Franklin:
  • Burns chose not to focus on Franklin in the documentary because of past dedicated work but notes his role in forging compromises and awareness of his own contradictions:
    • “Humility wasn’t in his list of 12 virtues … and he understood how much humor was a disinfectant.” (39:58)

Preview of Part II

• Coming up:
  • “Next week, we’ll continue the dialogue about the American Revolution.” (41:59)
  • Burns on parenthood: “I actually think I’m a better father than I am a filmmaker, and that’s totally meaningful for me.” (42:19)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Biography & Storytelling Complexity:

  • “All biography is failure… But he's a hell of a lot more complicated and therefore to me more interesting…” – Ken Burns (01:57)
  • “The best arguments in the world won't change a single person's point of view. The only thing that can do that is a good story.” – Ken Burns quoting Richard Powers (04:35)

• On Heroism and Flaws:

  • “This idea of perfection is ridiculous. This is what makes a good story.” – Ken Burns (05:54)
  • “We do not have a country without George Washington, period, full stop. He's a deeply flawed human being.” – Ken Burns (05:54)

• On Washington’s Reluctance and Leadership:

  • “He gives up his power twice, and he is the glue … that held this country together.” – Ken Burns (05:54)
  • “Humility… Liberty is never being too sure you're right.” – Ken Burns referencing Learned Hand (21:19)
  • “He pulls out some spectacles and everybody goes. The whole crowd goes. And he looks up and he goes, Oh, you see, I've grown old, gray and nearly blind in the service of my country. And like, it's—it. The mutiny's over.” – Ken Burns (21:19)

• On Moral Hypocrisy:

  • “How could you do something if you knew it was wrong? … That is the human question for all of us.” – Annette Gordon Reed quoted by Ken Burns (33:28)
  • “You can't. It's morally hypocritical, period. But then again, if you're expecting perfection, then what do you get? Nothing.” – Ken Burns (33:28)

• On Holding Contradictions:

  • “Keats said about Shakespeare that Shakespeare had negative capability. That means he could hold intentions, someone's strength and someone's weakness, and he wouldn't decide…” – Ken Burns (38:28)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:57: Introduction to the complications of biography, the mythology of George Washington
• 04:35: “One plus one equals three”—the transformative potential of stories
• 05:54–09:17: The complexity of Washington as a hero—strengths, flaws, the glue of the Revolution
• 09:36–14:57: Why we need new narratives of Washington; myth vs. messy reality; the human side of revolution
• 15:30–18:05: Washington’s reluctance, servant leadership, and building for posterity
• 20:43: Discussion of humble vs. narcissistic leadership; Washington’s empowering style
• 21:19: The spectacles-at-mutiny story—Washington’s humility dissolves crisis
• 33:28–36:06: Addressing the moral hypocrisy of slavery; the dangers of binary thinking and presentism
• 38:28: The value of contradictions in art and history—negative capability
• 39:58: Brief on Ben Franklin and the Enlightenment’s influence

Final Thoughts

The episode underscores Ken Burns’s conviction that history—and especially its heroes—are far richer, more humane, and more instructive when we refuse binary thinking and embrace contradiction. This complexity is not only more interesting but essential to understanding our country and ourselves. The conversation is suffused with warmth, wit, and a moral seriousness that never tips into didacticism, offering a fresh, nuanced, and deeply engaging look at America’s founding stories.

Stay tuned for Part 2, where the conversation continues into both the personal and the political realms of the American Revolution and its legacy.