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- [00:00]
Adam Grant
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- [00:30]
LinkedIn Ad Voice
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- [01:01]
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- [01:12]
Shonda Rhimes
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- [01:14]
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- [01:16]
Shonda Rhimes
Like why in knowing what to do.
- [01:19]
Thumbtack Ad Voice
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- [01:24]
Shonda Rhimes
Download Thumbtack Today I meet so many young women who went into science because of that show. So many young women who went to medical school because of that show, which was completely unintended. Like that wasn't what I thought when I was writing about McDreamy and McSteney and all this.
- [01:45]
Adam Grant
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My podcast on the Science of what Makes Us Tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Shonda Rhimes, one of the most influential dreamers and doers of our time. She's the Golden Globe winning creator, writer and executive producer behind so many of our favorite TV shows from Grey's Anatomy and Scandal to Bridgerton and How to Get Away with Murder. Shonda's the founder of a hugely successful production company, Shondaland, and she wrote a best selling memoir about taking risks called Year of Yes.
- [02:27]
Shonda Rhimes
I just was a person who always said no. If I felt like, no was the answer. And that really threw a lot of people. But it also. I gained a lot of respect from people because of it as well, that I wasn't even sort of looking towards.
- [02:41]
Adam Grant
I was thrilled to interview Shonda live on Stage at Uplift BetterUp's flagship summit on leadership growth and performance, and I'm excited to share that conversation with you today.
- [02:57]
Interviewer
Shonda Rhimes, welcome to Uplift.
- [02:59]
Shonda Rhimes
Thank you. Hello, everybody.
- [03:02]
Interviewer
I love the standing ovation before the conversation. Does it take the pressure off?
- [03:08]
Shonda Rhimes
The pressure's always on. You want to deliver.
- [03:11]
Interviewer
Okay, so I was trying to think about how to describe your impact on the world and on culture, and here's what I came up with. Tell me if it's right or wrong. I think that many of us have our greatest daily moments of joy in front of a TV screen, and you are responsible for more of those moments than anyone on earth alive. And therefore, you might be the greatest Joy creator on Earth.
- [03:40]
Shonda Rhimes
I like that. I've never heard it described that way. When my kids are ribbing me, I'm like, I'm a joy creator.
- [03:48]
Interviewer
How would you describe what you do?
- [03:50]
Shonda Rhimes
I always say, I'm a storyteller first and foremost. That's my job. No matter what medium we're talking about, I feel like we're sort of fearlessly entertaining through storytelling and really celebrating everybody with it. Our goal is to just reflect life and to reflect humanity the way either we want it to be, or it should be, or it is. And so to me, Storyteller is the perfect title.
- [04:12]
Interviewer
If you could go back to your life story when you were a kid, what did you want to be when you grew up?
- [04:16]
Shonda Rhimes
I wanted to be Toni Morrison. And I'm not joking, I wanted to be Toni Morrison. I loved her work. I thought being a writer sounded amazing. She was a professor at Princeton. I was like, that's like the perfect life. And then she won the Nobel Prize. So it felt like, yeah, I want to be Toni Morrison when I grow up. You can't be Toni Morrison when you grow up, because Toni Morrison was already Toni Morrison. But it really was my aspiration. But I also had all these other things that I didn't realize what they added up to. I wanted to be a lawyer for a long time. I wanted to be a doctor for a long time. I wanted to be a CIA agent for a long time. What I realized is I don't actually want to do those things, but I want to write about them and pretend and live in that world. And that became really fun for me. Once I understood that I didn't have to go to medical school or I didn't have to actually be a spy that I could imagine.
- [05:10]
Interviewer
That's so fascinating because this is exactly why I became an organizational psychologist. I thought, I can study all the jobs that I think I want to do. I like your version better.
- [05:20]
Shonda Rhimes
It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.
- [05:22]
Interviewer
Okay, so you figure out that you want to be a storyteller. It's hard to imagine graduating college and saying, okay, I'm going to build Shondaland. Did you have that vision at 21 or how did it evolve?
- [05:34]
Shonda Rhimes
No, it did not work that way at all. I flailed for a long time. I worked in nonprofit world for a while to sort of pay my bills. Then I went to film school. And the only reason I went to film school was because my parents are professors. And I read that it was harder to get into USC film school than it is to get into Harvard Law School. And I thought, if I do that, they can't say that I'm not doing something. So that's why I went to film school, really. Cause I needed something to do and I liked watching TV and movies. It wasn't until I got there that I realized how comfortable I was there and how much I enjoyed what I was learning and I enjoyed what I was doing.
- [06:11]
Interviewer
And then, oh, what happened next?
- [06:15]
Shonda Rhimes
I was lucky. Like, I graduated film school with an agent. I won a writing contest and got an agent. You don't really generally graduate that way. It did not help me in any way. Back in the day when people had CDs for music, I would sell my CDs to buy gas for my car. So, like, it wasn't helping anyway. I had a job that I was going to that I did not like, plenty of that stuff. But then I wrote a script and I said to myself, I'm going to write this movie script. I'm going to write something I just like. And if it sells, I'll stay in Hollywood. And if it doesn't, I'll go do a post baccalaureate year so. So that I can then go to medical school and become a doctor. And I was dead serious and the script sold luckily, so I didn't have to go. And it never got made. But in Hollywood, things get sold and then they get sold again. And they get sold again. It got sold enough that I could survive. And then I was hired to write Introducing Dorothy Dandridge, which starred Halle Berry. And it was my first real job in the business.
- [07:19]
Interviewer
Wow. So are you saying that McDreamy and Meredith Grey, the whole cast hung in the balance of one script being sold?
- [07:28]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes, definitely.
- [07:29]
Interviewer
And you would have otherwise gone to med school?
- [07:32]
Shonda Rhimes
I was a really nerdy academic student who loved being in school. And while I didn't love science, I did love the idea of helping people and being a doctor.
- [07:41]
Interviewer
Well, I think it's safe to say that you've done more to inspire people to become doctors than you would have if you had gone to med school.
- [07:50]
Shonda Rhimes
I think that, to me, is the most exciting piece of a legacy. I meet so many young women who went into science because of that show. So many young women who went to medical school because of that show, which was completely unintended. Like, that wasn't what I thought when I was writing about McDreamy and McStinney and all this. But in it, you know, Christina Yang and Meredith Gray. Dr. Bailey set this example. I think that made a lot of young women see themselves, and that was really exciting.
- [08:16]
Interviewer
It was such a different time then, and we had so little representation on tv. Was that an uphill battle? What was it like to write characters who we weren't used to seeing?
- [08:26]
Shonda Rhimes
It was and it wasn't. And here's what I mean. There hadn't been a show that wasn't a sitcom that had two characters of color in a room discussing something alone without a white character. Literally, that hadn't happened. There were very few shows where. Where there were women who had both families and jobs where women were competitive, where women slept around. I think it was Sex and the City, but that was it. And so when I wrote that show, which felt to me like it was about women my age at the time, I remember the network saying, like, we're really worried that no one's gonna wanna watch this because that woman is not the kind of woman you wanna be. And I was like, but that's all the women I know. Nobody came at me because of diversity or because of the color of the cast. They really didn't. And I don't even think it occurred to them that they should. ABC was really great about that. But when it aired, what I thought was simply a show about people turned out to be revolutionary because people of color had not been portrayed as people on television. They were most likely put on television to talk about being a person of color. Like, that was generally what happened in a show. And I'm not bragging, but Grey's Anatomy literally changed the face of television. You know, who you see on TV Okay, I am bragging a little bit.
- [09:51]
Interviewer
No, no. There's a difference between a brag and a fact. Okay. So, Shonda, this goes to one of our major themes of the discussion today, which is the idea of reinvention. You have reinvented the way that stories are told, and you've done it repeatedly throughout your career. I wonder if you could talk to us about some of your early and boldest moves where you had to try something that had never been attempted and what you learned from that experience.
- [10:15]
Shonda Rhimes
Grey's Anatomy is the first television show I'd ever written, and that's really a weird experience to write a show and then have it become lightning like that, where it's still going. So I was in a position where I did not often understand what the actual rules were because I had never worked in television before. So I was making my own rules and quite often encountering people who sort of like, well, you can't do that that way, or, that doesn't work that way. And I always felt like, well, I'm the person telling the story, so it has to work that way because I'm telling the story. Like, how do you know how it happens? You didn't write the story, and it seems really simple, but what it did in a way that I don't know if I was completely aware of in the very beginning, but I began to be aware of it, I would say no. And so many people in that town were so desperate for their shot and for a job and for an opportunity that they would never say no. They'd get crazy notes, and they'd say yes. They'd be told something about who they could be on television or what a story could be told or all kinds of things, and they'd say, okay. Also, not for nothing, but most showrunners were white men. So I would walk into a room with one of my writers, and they would only talk to him because he was a white man. And I became really good at sort of allowing people to make fools of themselves without insulting them. To sort of make the point of a leader comes in all kinds of packages. You can't say that this is what a leader looks like, because the leader's over here.
- [11:50]
Interviewer
What's an example of how you would do that?
- [11:52]
Shonda Rhimes
I would always let them talk for a while, and I wouldn't say much, and then they'd ask a real question. And then my writer, who knew this was coming because they're very used to it, would say, you shouldn't be asking me. You should have been Asking her over there. And there's a moment of realization for them. And sometimes they knew I was the head writer, but they assumed that someone was in charge of me. That happens to women and people of color all the time. Don't gasp. It really does. And so this idea that I brought someone who was in charge of me instead of someone to take notes was really annoying to me. But I also just always was able to clarify that very clearly.
- [12:31]
Interviewer
I'm just imagining the train of thought when the realization washes over them, like, they have to grapple with both, am I sexist? And am I racist all at once.
- [12:41]
Shonda Rhimes
Maybe that's true. There were a lot of people who didn't grapple. They just felt like they'd made a mistake and didn't even think about what it meant, but they never made the mistake again.
- [12:49]
Interviewer
You mentioned saying no when other people said yes. You have a complicated relationship with the words no and yes. And I want to dig into that, because I think that both of them have been really important in your leadership and your career.
- [13:01]
Shonda Rhimes
I agree. Grays had been out and scandal had come out, and I was pretty successful. And pretty successful. It took a long time for me to actually decide that I was successful a long time. But I was pretty successful at that point. And my sister was at home with me. And I would tell her all the invitations, well, I got invited here, and England wanted me to come and do this. And this person wanted me to come to this. And Time magazine. And she goes, are you ever gonna do any of these things? And I looked at her like she was crazy. And I was like, no. And she said, why not? And I had all kinds of excuses, but the reality of it was is I was a deep introvert and I was afraid. And she said to me, you never say yes to anything. And that made me embark on a year where I decided to say yes to everything that scared me. And I ended up writing a book about it. But it was an amazing experience because I was a person who was comfortable saying no, because it meant that I could stay home in my pajamas in my cocooned life and not have to worry about anything. But I said yes to everything. And the first thing I said yes to was giving a commencement speech in front of 15,000 people. And I said yes to going on television. I did a guest spot on Mindy Kaling's television show. And it went on and on. I started saying yes to things that I didn't even think I needed to say yes to, things that hadn't even occurred to me that they would be in my wheelhouse. And it really changed everything for me. What I learned most of all is that the thing you're afraid of doing, the thing undoes the fear. It truly does. One of those things I said yes to was difficult conversations, because I used to avoid them like the plague. I always feel like peace is now on the other side of a difficult conversation. So you have to say yes to having the difficult conversation no matter what that conversation is. If it's, you're underperforming and this is not working for me, if it's, you're in the wrong business, like, you shouldn't be doing this job that you think you want to do. If it's telling somebody that something doesn't work or something is hard, or if it's me telling some people, I'm not going to do this, and here's why. It was really revolutionary to me to do that.
- [15:06]
Interviewer
When I first saw you in person at ted, and I think you might have just released your book at that point.
- [15:13]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes, I think so.
- [15:14]
Interviewer
And I was so shocked because I was coming at this from the backdrop of organizational psychology research showing that women face way more cultural and organizational pressure to say yes than men do. And then when they do say yes, it gets taken for granted. Like, she's caring, of course she wants to help. And if they say no, they get penalized for it. How dare she not? And meanwhile, men get away with saying no. I never would have expected him to care. And they get celebrated for saying yes because, wow, what a great guy. And so I guess my starting assumption was, oh, this was going to be a book about the need to say no. And you went the opposite way.
- [15:54]
Shonda Rhimes
There is a chapter called say yes to saying no. Because really learning when to say no and how to say no efficiently, which is I always say, the sentence is, I'm sorry, I can't do that. And you never give any other information. You don't have to explain yourself. But the reason why I sort of went the other way or why my brain went the other way, I didn't, like, claw my way to the top. I found myself in a position that nobody else had been in before, and I was protecting my space and my sanity a lot of the time by saying no, because I was like, I'm doing this one thing that I'm terrified to do badly, making this show. If I mess up, will there ever be anybody who looks like me who does it again? So I spent time saying no, really trying to protect my own peace. I Didn't really care if other people were unhappy that I said no, because it was the thing keeping me sane and happy and going. So there was that. And I do know that most women are expected to say yes to things. And I think because I had been so determinedly saying no, saying yes meant something. But also, the book is not about saying whether or not you can say yes. It's about saying yes to the right things and saying no to the right things and really defining that for yourself and letting go of other people's expectations of what that means.
- [17:10]
Interviewer
You live in a world of infinite opportunity. You could literally do anything you want. How do you decide what's worth saying yes to and what to say no to?
- [17:17]
Shonda Rhimes
Oh, wow. I say yes to things that feel exciting to me or that I can bring something to. If I can bring something to the table, then I'm going to say yes if I never even imagined doing it before. Sometimes I'll say yes because you should always do the things that freak you out and scare you at some point in time. I'm not going to jump out of a plane because I'm not stupid. But other things. People always talk about work life balance. And I believe there's no such thing as work life balance. But I say no to things based on, like, my kids and what we're doing at the time. What feels important to me at the time, too. You can say yes to almost anything. But if you have no fences, that doesn't mean you should just run free. It means you should figure out what your own fences are.
- [18:04]
Interviewer
You talk about saying yes when you have something to add. I wonder if it matters that you have something unique to add.
- [18:10]
Shonda Rhimes
Oh, I definitely think having something unique to add matters. Still, be careful who you say yes to, because somebody will discover that you can do something unique, and then they will try to make you do it again and again and again for them. So to me, it's only if I'm contributing to something that's sort of unique to my talents, but also is something I want to do. I never say yes to something I just don't want to do. That's not a way to live your life.
- [18:34]
Interviewer
Okay, so this reminds me of a moment in your career when Oprah told you that you didn't look like you were having fun.
- [18:41]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes. Grey's Anatomy had become this enormous hit, and the first sign that you're an enormous hit is Oprah wants to come and talk to you. And everybody was, like, insane about the fact that she was coming. I went home the night before. And I came back the next day, and they had planted, like, 4,000 roses or flat tulips so that Oprah would see something beautiful when she drove in. It was crazy. It felt like God might be coming, like, get it together. And so she came. And I was so stressed out by it that I remember not a lot of it, but she was warm and it was lovely. And it was this sort of far ranging interview. She and Gayle sat across the room, and I sort of sat in a corner, sort of answering questions, like, terrified. And we took a photo and we did this whole thing. And as she was leaving, Oprah grabbed my hand and said, you're not enjoying any of this. And she was right. And it made me feel really seen, because at that point, I was so shy that the idea that I was doing this and supposed to be natural at it and funny and casual, that wasn't even possible. But I also wasn't enjoying it because I still wasn't sure that the success was going to last. I was still operating in a very fearful place of, they're going to take this away from me any minute if I don't protect it. And she said, you have to start finding ways to enjoy this. And I started to try how a lot of it was. I never even celebrated our successes ever. I never went like, oh, we're the number one show. I'd edit the episodes and then I wouldn't even, like, really watch them to go, like, we made this. And so I really started to try to enjoy myself more. I started going down to the soundstage more to watch people act, to sort of see my words coming to life. Cause usually I was like, that's not my job. And I just started trying to also find moments in life to enjoy more.
- [20:39]
Interviewer
You must have been the only person in America not watching.
- [20:43]
Shonda Rhimes
Yeah, my daughters have never seen it either. And one of them is 22. But I get that. I think that's really healthy in a lot of ways. Like, it's all your mom's feelings about romance and sex and competitiveness and business. Like, they have to hear that stuff anyway at home. Like, why do you want to watch a show about it?
- [21:01]
Interviewer
I wonder if you belong to the breed of creators who can't watch their own content without nitpicking and critiquing. Can you sit back and feel proud of it and enjoy it?
- [21:12]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes.
- [21:13]
Interviewer
How? Because I would really like to learn that skill. And I know there are others who would do.
- [21:17]
Shonda Rhimes
By the time we hit Scandal, I was really able to Sit back and just be proud of the work and enjoy it and find things that were funny. Because it's not just to me, you know, there are 300 people who make that show. So you're looking at the work of all of these other people, all kinds of people. You're appreciating the work of the actors. You're appreciating the director, the cinematography, the other writers, the crew, costumes. To me, it wasn't me that I'm watching. I'm getting to watch something put together by a whole group of people. I imagined something. It went on a page, but 300 people made it.
- [21:53]
Interviewer
This is clearly a virtue of making shows as opposed to writing books.
- [21:58]
Shonda Rhimes
Yeah, I agree with that, too.
- [22:00]
Interviewer
You've alluded to being an introvert and referenced it at least once. First of all, full disclosure, I am also an introvert. I think we've both overcome a lot of shyness to be on this stage.
- [22:10]
Shonda Rhimes
I agree. I agree.
- [22:11]
Interviewer
Some colleagues and I did research years ago where we studied introverted and extroverted leaders, and we found that if you had a really reactive, passive team that was looking for direction, the. The extroverts were more effective. They were bringing the energy, and they were engaging everyone. But if you had a proactive team with tons of ideas and suggestions, the introverts actually led greater success.
- [22:30]
Shonda Rhimes
No, I like that. I think my philosophy has always been, for at least 20 years, if you hired people to do a job, you should let them do that job. Like, it's not my job to micromanage you. And if I've hired you and I don't have faith in you enough to do that job, then why have I hired you? So I hire people, and I don't question their aspects of a job. I ask a lot of questions. I try to learn a lot, but I don't tell anybody how to do their job. The company has grown. It used to be just like me and another person, but now it's a whole bunch of people. Now that we've grown, it is a company full of people who feel empowered to do their jobs and feel trusted to do their jobs. And it is a much more productive workplace than anything else. When people are sitting around waiting for you to tell them what to do, it's painful for them and for you. And I say that as somebody who. My scripts will be late and the crew will be waiting for pages, but in the office, it's always moving. People are always having ideas. They're always building. And that's exciting to me. Like, I want that to happen. I don't need to be the person who has my finger on everything.
- [23:44]
Interviewer
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- [24:06]
Adam Grant
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- [24:13]
Shonda Rhimes
Hey everyone, this is Cory and Carly, the hosts of the surviving Sister Wives podcast.
- [24:18]
Thumbtack Ad Voice
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- [24:35]
Adam Grant
And after all the joy and drama.
- [24:37]
Shonda Rhimes
They hit the hot seat and answer.
- [24:38]
Adam Grant
The questions we've been begging to know.
- [24:40]
Shonda Rhimes
Sister Wives all new Sunday at 10 on TLC.
- [24:44]
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- [25:18]
Interviewer
I'm so fascinated by the work that you do as a creator who then chose to become a leader and lead other creators but also have to teach them. Can I call them suits? Bean counters?
- [25:30]
Shonda Rhimes
Some traditional executives, yes, traditional executives is.
- [25:33]
Interviewer
Best how to engage with creative work. You have spoken so insightfully about how to coach executives to judge creative work and give feedback. Can you talk to us about that?
- [25:45]
Shonda Rhimes
Writers think that they're making magical plays and stories that work and the executives think you're making us money. Right? They're coming from a completely different world. What? What's hard to remember with a creative job? You can't actually say, well, we did this, this, this before, so if you do this, this and this again, it'll work. That's not gonna work. And you can't talk to a creative that way. But what I learned is that instead of railing against any notes they gave or railing against anything that they told me, it would be better if I just said, you know what works for me. Like, you know how you can give me a note that I'm really gonna understand if you do this. And it was always, don't tell me the solution. The solution is my problem as the creative. Tell me what your problem is. Tell me what's not working for you. And that really changed my relationship with a bunch of suits because it allowed them to feel empowered to give notes and feel like they were going to be heard without being on a phone with me while I made very loud sighs and other passive aggressive things about the things that they were pitching to me that they wanted me to do.
- [26:49]
Interviewer
It reminds me of feedback I've given to my own teams, which is sometimes they will jump to solutions to problems they pointed out, and they think they're being helpful and taking ownership. And what I have to say to them is, you're not close enough to the work that I created to know whether this solution you're offering me is going to cause other problems.
- [27:07]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes.
- [27:07]
Interviewer
Why I need you is you have distance that I don't. And that gives you perspective to hold up a mirror and see the problems more clearly.
- [27:14]
Shonda Rhimes
Yeah. And I always presented it as what would make me perform best.
- [27:19]
Interviewer
That's very Jerry Maguire. Help me help you.
- [27:21]
Shonda Rhimes
Exactly.
- [27:22]
Interviewer
I want to talk a little bit about failure. It's amazing your failures have not been very visible compared to your successes.
- [27:28]
Shonda Rhimes
Yeah.
- [27:29]
Interviewer
At all.
- [27:30]
Shonda Rhimes
I haven't had that many of them.
- [27:31]
Interviewer
You've had shockingly few.
- [27:32]
Shonda Rhimes
Yeah.
- [27:33]
Interviewer
I actually had to dig pretty deep into Google to find any. I think at some point there was a war correspondent pilot that didn't get picked up.
- [27:41]
Shonda Rhimes
I didn't look at that like a failure. So my very first foray into television was they hire you to write a script, and if they like that script, they'll turn it into a television pilot. If they like the pilot, it becomes a series. So I wrote a script about war correspondence for women who were covering wars, who were really tough and really competitive about their jobs. And we were at war. And so nobody, ABC was like, you've lost your mind. Like, we're not making this. And it taught me a valuable lesson because the next question I asked is, well, Bob Iger runs this company. What does Bob Iger want to see? And they said, bob Iger wants to see a medical show. So I wrote Grey's Anatomy. So for me, it wasn't a failure as much as it was I'm testing out my theories of how to get this done.
- [28:27]
Interviewer
Wow. So that was just feedback for you, and then you pivoted.
- [28:30]
Shonda Rhimes
Exactly.
- [28:31]
Interviewer
Now, when something you were excited about didn't get adopted or didn't get the immediate yes that you were looking for. Is that just feedback? Is that how you dealt with it?
- [28:40]
Shonda Rhimes
Sometimes it was feedback, sometimes it was, they're absolutely wrong. So I'm gonna go around and figure out how to make that happen. Anyway, I was really raised with a philosophy, and I really am grateful that I was raised with the philosophy. Cause I wish everybody had it. That there are no such thing as obstacles. There are no walls, There are hills to be climbed. There are objects to go around. But. But they're not stopping you in any way. So that belief, for me, always made me think, well, there's another way.
- [29:11]
Interviewer
I think you were way ahead of the curve in terms of going to streaming. And I think there were a lot of people who were like, okay, you've been that successful on abc. Network is your bread and butter. Stay there. And you chose to say, no, I want to go to Netflix.
- [29:25]
Shonda Rhimes
How did you know ABC had done great by me. We'd had all these shows. We were doing Scandal and Grays and how to Get Away with Murder. At the time, things were going fine, but things were going fine. Like, in the beginning, there would be problems that would happen with our crew or our cast or our set or something. Production and my producing partner, Betsy Beers, and I would sit, and it would take us weeks to figure out, like, the best way to fix it and do it correctly. And we'd be really proud of ourselves when we solved the problem. By the end, that same problem could come up, and Betsy and I could have that problem solved in five minutes because we had all the experience we'd learned. And I felt like I wasn't learning anything new. I know exactly how to make network television. I know exactly what will work and what they respond to in terms of the executives, not the audience. And I felt like I was looking at how people were watching television. I wasn't watching network television at the time. I was watching cable. I was obsessed with Netflix. So to me, I thought, this is moving someplace else. And I was watching what Netflix was doing, and they were doing things like making the Crown for, like, $12 million an episode, which was twice the budget you'd have in television, and just beautiful work. And I thought, I want to go over there and do what I do there. And I remember my agent said I was crazy, and that was a terrible idea. But then when I said, I really, really want to do this, he went and found and created a model for me to do it, because it hadn't been done before. Nobody had had a Deal like that at a streamer. Streamers didn't make deals like that. So he built the deal that I needed to go there, and it was the first one. I remember the very big splash it made when it was announced, but I also felt really good about it. I had come to peace with it. My biggest issue or concern was my team. The people who worked on our shows make sure that they understood and felt like, your lives are going to remain the same. Like, I'm not gone. That's not how this works. And then for the people in the office, we're all making this leap together. Like, it's a scary leap because it hasn't been done. And you're suddenly thinking to yourselves, maybe I should go get a job someplace else. But we're gonna make this leap together. And I recognize that this is stressful for all of you.
- [31:44]
Interviewer
It's so fascinating to see just how willing you are to follow your own attention and interest as opposed to just deferring to what other people be good.
- [31:55]
Shonda Rhimes
I truly think a real leader goes forward when they know that it's sort of the right North Star. It is very easy to sit back and just keep doing what you're doing. I could have been making network television for another 20 years, but that wasn't exciting to me. It also didn't feel like where the wind was blowing in terms of innovation. And to me, I feel like you have to seize those moments. You have to ask yourself, if you're going to stay, why am I staying? And if the reason is because it's comfortable, that might not be the right reason. And you ask yourself, why I'm going, when you can say your why for going, you know, you're right.
- [32:34]
Interviewer
So it seems like the pace of change is accelerating, and with that crisis is happening more often than ever before. You created scandal. Is there a lesson from writing Olivia Pope for crisis management that we can all take away?
- [32:52]
Shonda Rhimes
Olivia Pope is based on a real life crisis manager named Judy Smith, who then consulted on our show. One thing that she always said that was really important was never lie in the middle of a crisis. Don't lie and say it's gonna be all right or that didn't happen, or, you know, we're all gonna definitely do this. Don't lie. The second is, no matter how bad the truth is, you have to stand in that truth. You have to be ready to own that truth, because it's going to come out eventually, and then the crisis gets worse, Right? So you have to be ready to own your truth and Stand in it. The other thing was she would always say some version of don't try to hide it or spin it in a way that just makes you look good. If you're going to spin it, spin it towards a way that makes you look like you're truthful or that you have integrity or those sorts of things. But you can't pretend a crisis isn't happening, and you can't think it's just gonna blow over either. That's the worst. That's when the rumor mill starts, because in the absence of information, they're gonna come up with information. Right? Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [33:56]
Interviewer
I'm hearing a lot of, uh, ohs right now.
- [33:58]
Shonda Rhimes
Yeah, but it's so true. They come up with information, and then you're dealing with a group of people who much like the world right now, who have created their own truth and believe it. And then whatever you say, then they feel like you're trying to gaslight them or you're trying to get them to be quiet. And that never works. I mean, obviously that becomes a nightmare.
- [34:20]
Interviewer
This reminds me of some recent evidence that leaders are, on average, nine times more likely to be criticized for under communicating than over communicating.
- [34:28]
Shonda Rhimes
If what you know has to be a secret. Right. You have to be really careful about how you're maintaining that, because the reality of it is 90% of the things you think, like, we shouldn't tell the employees this. A lot of the time you can tell them, and then they feel a part of it. And it's helpful for people to feel like they're getting a steady flow of information. And when you can't tell them, tell them. You can't tell them, as opposed to sort of pretending that nothing's going on.
- [34:55]
Interviewer
Okay, so we got a crisis lesson from Scandal from Graze. Do you have a favorite leadership or collaboration takeaway?
- [35:02]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes. I mean, Grace is based on young interns coming in and learning how to do surgery. And, you know, there's a very clear learning curve, which is see one, do one, teach one. So first you see it done, then you do it yourself, and then you have to know it well enough to be able to teach it to somebody else. That works for almost everything in terms of training people and in terms of even stuff for me, like public speaking and things that made me nervous. You know, the see one, do one, teach one takes that nervousness away. It allows people to feel qualified.
- [35:36]
Interviewer
I think so many people say, I need a coach to get better. Like, yeah, you want that. You also want to Be a coach, because when you teach someone else a skill, you remember it better after you explain it, and you also understand it better after having to unpack it.
- [35:50]
Shonda Rhimes
Absolutely.
- [35:51]
Interviewer
I am not going to ask you for a work lesson from Bridgerton. I have a wonderful question that Sally Colwell submitted. She's full of creative ideas and this is no exception. She wants to know, what have you learned about leadership from being a creative writer? And then on the flip side, is there something that writers should learn from leaders?
- [36:11]
Shonda Rhimes
I think there's a ton that writers can learn from leaders. When it became clear that I wanted my company to be more than just me running different shows, when I wanted it to be a storytelling company where we did more things, where we were involved in merchandise, where we were involved in podcast, when we became bigger in that way, it became really clear that I needed to understand leadership on a higher level. I did a lot of reading. Everybody thinks they need a mentor. I didn't have any mentors and I didn't know anybody when I entered Hollywood. So my mentors were books. I would read people's biographies, I would read people's memoirs. I would read people's leadership books. And that to me was enough because a lot of people don't have access to a mentor. I think creative writers really come from a place where there's not just one way things can happen. I always say, like, I'm the best worst case scenario builder that you will ever meet, because I can think of 5,000 ways something's going to go wrong because it makes a good story. Right? But I think a lot of leaders really have their idea that I've learned what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. This has always worked for me. But they're not thinking creatively about other ways that they can either take what they know and apply it, or take what they know and add stuff that they don't know to make themselves better.
- [37:29]
Interviewer
You're speaking to the fact that every leader in the room is a storyteller.
- [37:33]
Shonda Rhimes
I absolutely think so. I think that if you can't tell the story of your company, your department, your time there, the story of who you are, you're not really communicating the way you should.
- [37:45]
Interviewer
It's not every day that we get to sit down with a master storyteller and ask, how do we get better at it? What are your favorite lessons and principles of storytelling?
- [37:53]
Shonda Rhimes
The one that I adhere to the most is, if you've seen it before, don't do it again. You don't want to sort of take somebody else's story and try to make it your own, because it's easy and it's good, and you know that it works. Truly. What is your story like? What is your unique story? So, one, I always say don't copy. Two, I always say people love to have stories where, like, there's a surprise at the end, and that's great, but don't bury the lead, ever. You watch Scandal two seconds in, you know exactly who Olivia Pope is and what kind of person she's going to be. Right. And also paint a picture. You know, people talk and they say lots of words, but they don't necessarily say something that holds somebody's imagination because you're not painting a picture. You're not saying, you know who you are. In that context, it speaks to some.
- [38:42]
Interviewer
Research led by Drew Carton, which showed that as people climb up a hierarchy, we tend to select people on the basis of their abstract thinking skills. And so basically, the closer you get to the C suite, the worse you are at painting a picture.
- [38:56]
Shonda Rhimes
Yeah, that's interesting.
- [38:58]
Interviewer
So I think we need your skills at the top more than anywhere else.
- [39:01]
Shonda Rhimes
Everybody at the company has to understand why we tell the stories we tell in order to do their jobs. So there's a lot of me explaining what makes a Shondaland story a Shondaland story, and a lot of my team sort of using observations and building out that to then move forward with something. Like, you say, there's no leadership lessons to be learned from Bridgerton, But Bridgerton is a show set in Regency England. We have sold and created more merchandise for that show than any other show. We innovated sort of amazing, interesting ways to make it a global brand. My favorite is that we did a commercial for Flonase. There was the couple, Penelope and Colin, and they called them Hashtag Polin. So we did a commercial about pollen season and Flonase, and it was incredibly successful. It's one awards been nominated for awards. But more importantly, what that was was us innovating ways in which to take things like advertising dollars, which are very hard to integrate, into a show that's set in Regency England. We've become really good at looking at what our show is about, which is romance and love, and then innovating that into. We have a line of wedding gowns that people are really excited about. We have, you know, everybody talks about the tea that's served on Bridgerton or the tea that's served up on Bridgerton. We have teas, we have teapots, we have a line of things at Williams Sonoma. So we innovated a lot of merchandise. A huge global brand out of that. Just thinking about how we can bring more of that to the audience.
- [40:34]
Interviewer
And it's not just products, it's live experiences, too. People go to Bridgerton Balls.
- [40:38]
Shonda Rhimes
Now we have Bridgerton Balls. And it's funny because when it was first thought up, I thought, like, this is crazy. But my team is smart and they wanted to do it, so they did it. And then they brought me to see one. And it's magical. Apparently. It's a great date night.
- [40:54]
Interviewer
I'll report back.
- [40:55]
Shonda Rhimes
Okay.
- [41:01]
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- [41:24]
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- [41:54]
Interviewer
Work management platforms.
- [41:56]
Shonda Rhimes
Ugh.
- [41:56]
Interviewer
Endless onboarding. IT bottlenecks admin requests. But what if things were different? Monday.com is different. No lengthy onboarding, beautiful reports in minutes, custom workflows you can build on your own. Easy to use prompt, free AI. Huh. Turns out you can love a workman management platform. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use. Are you ready for a lightning round?
- [42:30]
Shonda Rhimes
Okay, lightning round.
- [42:31]
Interviewer
Okay, first question. Worst career advice you've ever gotten.
- [42:35]
Shonda Rhimes
To be quiet if you want to get ahead. Like, you have to not make waves. The worst career advice I've ever gotten, and it was about being really quiet on social media. We were really loud on social media. And then we created a whole brand of social media where you live, tweet shows, and things like that. So that was terrible advice. But the best advice I've ever been given is never enter a negotiation you're not willing to walk away from for anything. If you walk into that room without knowing what your bottom line is, then you've already lost. Because if you're like, I just really want this job, but you haven't set any boundaries for yourself. They are going to take you for all you're worth.
- [43:13]
Interviewer
So great to have you teaching negotiation lessons. Yes. Shonda just nailed the batna, the best alternative to negotiated agreement. Favorite character you've created.
- [43:23]
Shonda Rhimes
It's a tie between Christina Yang. Right. Olivia Pope and Queen Charlotte. The young Queen Charlotte People are showing.
- [43:38]
Interviewer
Their allegiances right now.
- [43:39]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes, I know. But I love those women, and I think that creating them. In creating all of those women and writing them, I learned stuff about myself and I grew.
- [43:49]
Interviewer
Which character is most and least like you?
- [43:52]
Shonda Rhimes
I don't want to say Olivia Pope's most like me because, you know, at the end, she goes kind of mad. But maybe in the beginning, I'm very much like Olivia Pope. Now, the character that's least like me. Meredith Grey. And I think she's least like me in ways that I admire her for. She's emotionally available constantly. She's not afraid to be bad at her job. Did I say too much? Yeah, But I think I'm least like her.
- [44:23]
Interviewer
What's the question for me that you have about organizational psychology?
- [44:26]
Shonda Rhimes
Oh, wow. What is the one thing you wish people would stop doing?
- [44:32]
Interviewer
Stop doing?
- [44:33]
Shonda Rhimes
Stop doing?
- [44:34]
Interviewer
Mass layoffs.
- [44:35]
Shonda Rhimes
There you go. I think that's a good one.
- [44:44]
Interviewer
It's an easy one. There was a paper published in one of our top journals that literally called layoffs dumb and dumber.
- [44:50]
Shonda Rhimes
Oh, wow. Can I ask you one more?
- [44:52]
Interviewer
If you insist.
- [44:55]
Shonda Rhimes
What do you understand to be the best leadership environment for creative people?
- [45:03]
Interviewer
Tell me what a leadership environment means to you.
- [45:06]
Shonda Rhimes
It means you're the person running things, and you're running things with a lot of creative people under you, and you're trying to cultivate a corporate environment or a company environment where people feel free to create, but also free to fail.
- [45:21]
Interviewer
I think the single thing that matters most is a leader who's willing to fall flat on her face.
- [45:26]
Shonda Rhimes
Excellent. I like that.
- [45:28]
Interviewer
I think that kind of humility and role modeling of experimentation and risk taking cascades very quickly down the organization.
- [45:35]
Shonda Rhimes
I agree. That's good.
- [45:37]
Interviewer
You have spoken very publicly about how you're always trying to get better. So what are you trying to get better at right now?
- [45:43]
Shonda Rhimes
At work? I think I'm really trying to get better at understanding the needs of people. I was very much a person who felt like, you know, how you're doing at your job, you're doing great, and, you know, how you know that you have a job? That was sort of my attitude. If you're here, I Obviously value and trust you. And now I'm trying to get better at understanding sort of the people and what they need from me versus what I need to share with them to make them successful.
- [46:12]
Interviewer
It sounds like you're working on evolving from being primarily task oriented to being a little bit more relationship oriented.
- [46:18]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes. Oh, that's a nice way of putting it.
- [46:21]
Interviewer
How do you think about working on that? Do you have a coach? Do you have a practice around developing that skill?
- [46:26]
Shonda Rhimes
I don't have time for a coach. I have to be honest, like that I would. Oh, am I about to get schooled by all of you? I need a coach. Okay.
- [46:39]
Interviewer
I like that they can even watch you while you're working, so it doesn't take that much time.
- [46:45]
Shonda Rhimes
I'm really trying more to connect with the stories of the people who work here and what they can bring. I'm really trying to understand sort of what brought them to the company. We just had a big leadership change where I just named co presidents of the company, and they've been spectacular at sort of pointing out the things that they think I'm lacking in. In a way, that's been really helpful for me to allow them to do their job.
- [47:08]
Interviewer
I love how you've just figured out all these things that our whole community of researchers has taken decades to produce. I'm like, oh, you're describing. Don't wa. For the exit interview. Do the entry interview to find out why did you join and what would keep you?
- [47:20]
Shonda Rhimes
Oh, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Exactly. Based on research.
- [47:25]
Interviewer
I think one of the best things about having a real role model on stage is we get to see your superpower in action. So I have a quick TV show idea that I want to pitch you. Are you ready?
- [47:37]
Shonda Rhimes
I'm ready.
- [47:38]
Interviewer
Okay, so my pitch is, what if we colonize the moon or Mars, and somebody who studies the kinds of things that we all love in this room around leadership and talent and culture gets sent to try to clean up that mess. Is that a show worth making?
- [47:51]
Shonda Rhimes
Oh, that's interesting. Any show about a fixer is a good show. I don't know what your conflict is, so you got to tell me what the conflict is. What's the problem you're trying to solve? You say clean up that mess. What's the mess? What's going on?
- [48:03]
Interviewer
Those are great notes that I will pass along. Okay, Shonda, last question for you. If you could leave all the amazing leaders in the room with us today with one piece of advice, what would it be?
- [48:17]
Shonda Rhimes
I think it's really about being free to question yourself and the processes. I always say that the most important thing I've learned is to admit when I don't know something, but also to ask why, if we're going to make a big change as a company, if we're going to innovate a product, my question is, yes, I know we can do it, but why are we doing it? If we're gonna change a job description, if we're gonna move somebody from one area to why are we doing this? So to me, like, the questioning the why of everything is really important to me. I have to know that in order to move forward. Because you have to know that for your characters in order to tell a story.
- [48:50]
Interviewer
Shonda, I just wanna say thank you. Your work is a gift to the world.
- [48:53]
Shonda Rhimes
Thank you.
- [48:54]
Interviewer
And.
- [48:57]
Shonda Rhimes
I really love talking this. This was fun.
- [49:00]
Interviewer
You all know how they say, never meet your heroes? This is a hero worth meeting.
- [49:05]
Shonda Rhimes
Oh, thank you. My God.
- [49:10]
Adam Grant
Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley, Ma and Asia Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hans Elsewhere and Alison Layton Brown. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winick, Samaya Adams, Roxanne hi Lash Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sungmanivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers.
- [49:41]
Shonda Rhimes
When she stepped out of the car, you could tell from just her foot that it was Oprah. It was crazy.
- [49:46]
Interviewer
Well, that's because she said and you get a car.
- [49:49]
Shonda Rhimes
No.
- [49:53]
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- [50:23]
Interviewer
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- [50:50]
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