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- [00:01]
Elise Hu
Hi TED Podcast listeners. It's Elise Hu here from TED Talks Daily. Thanks for making our podcast part of your routine. We really appreciate it and we want to make your favorite TED podcasts even better. We put together a quick survey and we'd love to hear from you.
- [00:16]
Adam Grant
It only takes a few minutes, but.
- [00:17]
Elise Hu
It helps us shape our shows and get to know you, our listeners, way better.
- [00:22]
Adam Grant
Head to the episode description to find the link.
- [00:25]
Elise Hu
Thank you again for listening and for taking the time to help our shows. TED Talks Daily is supported by Northwestern Mutual. If you want a better way to plan, relax and retire, then tune in to the award winning podcast A Better Way to Money. It's here to help you feel better about your finances, to help you uncover your own blind spots and find opportunities as you make progress toward your goals. In each episode, experts have deeper conversations about how real people like you are tackling their finances, from navigating a job change to talking about money with your family to retirement. Listen to A Better Way to Money wherever you find your podcasts or learn more@nm.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company Milwaukee, Wisconsin Ready to order? Yes. We're earning unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with a Capital One Saver card. So let's just get one of everything.
- [01:20]
Adam Grant
Everything. Fire everything. The Capital One Saver card is at table 27 and they're earning unlimited 3% cash back.
- [01:27]
Elise Hu
Yes, Chef. This is so nice.
- [01:30]
Adam Grant
Had a feeling you'd want 3% cash back on dessert.
- [01:32]
Elise Hu
Ooh, tiramisu.
- [01:34]
Adam Grant
Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with the Capital One Saver Card. Capital One what's in your wallet?
- [01:40]
Elise Hu
Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details.
- [01:45]
Adam Grant
This episode is sponsored by Freshworks. Let's be real work doesn't work like it used to. Your customers want answers. Yesterday, your IT team is juggling five fires and a broken ticketing system and your software probably slowing you down. That's where freshworks comes in. Freshworks builds uncomplicated IT and customer service software that actually helps teams move faster without the bloated systems or costs that come with layers and layers of consultants. Whether you're leading IT or managing customer support, FreshService and FreshDesk were designed to help you deliver real ROI today, not someday. And with a people first approach to AI, freshworks helps you do more, not just automate more, because tech should unlock human potential, not replace it. So go ahead, uncomplicate your business.
- [02:35]
Elise Hu
Learn more@freshworks.com I say that people overemphasize the effect of parents in children's lives and success. And they probably underestimate the influence of siblings in each other's lives.
- [02:52]
Adam Grant
Hey, everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking my Podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Susan Dominus, a staff writer at the New York Times Magazine. Her writing offers deep insight into the human psyche. I especially loved her feature on restorative justice as an alternative to punishment in schools and her mind boggling story about conjoined twins whose brains were connected by a neural bridge. In her debut book, the Family Dynamic, sue examines the lessons learned from families with multiple high achieving children. She conducted extensive interviews and a thorough review of social science, and she has a strong message for parents.
- [03:41]
Elise Hu
When parents feel like it's their job to make their kid or harder working, grittier, tougher, you know, I just feel like that so rarely ends well.
- [03:50]
Adam Grant
Sue is an unusually tenacious reporter. I know from experience. She wrote the profile that launched my first book. And a dozen years later, I'm excited to turn the tables on her and do the interrogating myself. All right, Sue, I have to ask you, how did you get interested in successful siblings?
- [04:10]
Elise Hu
I got interested in successful siblings because I went to summer camp with a bunch of cousins who had parents who were quite famous, at least in New York. One was a famous playwright, one was a famous financier whose name is on, you know, a building at Harvard Law School. Now another, I mean, even more impressive, one of them had a mom who, as we understood it had something to do with the formation of mtv. Like, there was absolutely nothing cooler in our day than that. This was the Wasserstein family. You know, perhaps the best known among that older generation of siblings was Wendy Wasserstein, the playwright. And I was always fascinated by their parents generation, and I really wanted to know what was going on in their home that made each of those kids confident enough to feel like they could do something that wasn't necessarily safe or conventional or had been done before.
- [05:03]
Adam Grant
And I imagine that you were already a budding journalist at the time and started doing interviews and observations to get to the bottom of that. What did you learn?
- [05:11]
Elise Hu
What I did learn was that they had a mom who was extremely interested in her children's success, was very hard driving, and was always asking what, you know, do better, do more. There was this implication that no matter what they did it wasn't enough. There was a real sense of Wasserstein pride. And although this isn't in the book, I will say that also their father was a real overcomer. You know, he was an immigrant who had come from nothing, very, very hardscrabble childhood and had really built a very successful fortune. So I think that that kind of sets a sense in K, maybe that, you know, anything is possible when they see that their own parent has done something so extraordinary.
- [05:49]
Adam Grant
Whenever I hear stories like this, my nature nurture alarm bell starts ringing. You know, you have, you have this hard charging mom, but those kids probably inherited DNA that's hard charging from their mom. How do we think about separating, you know, what's, what's genetic and what's learned? This is a central question you tackle in the book and I, I would love to hear how you've begun to make sense of that.
- [06:13]
Elise Hu
I can't believe you started out with like genetics. Nobody else has asked me anything about genetics. Nobody's at all curious. They're like, tell me about family mottos. Adam's like, how do we separate nature from nurture in these families? I love it.
- [06:24]
Adam Grant
Well, I mean, that's what I wanna know.
- [06:26]
Elise Hu
I know, me too. You know, it is, as you know, very hard to separate all of these things out. I mean, we know from twin studies that there are certain personality traits that do seem to have, you know, a genetic influence. It's not to say that there's like a gen mean one gene for hard working or one gene for really, really smart. But the totality of your genes might kind of point you in a certain direction.
- [06:51]
Adam Grant
So let's talk about twin studies and adoption studies. Everybody's favorite way to try to tease apart nature and nurture effects. One of my personal favorite findings is when you look at the big five personality traits. So we think about extraversion, emotional stability, conscientiousness, agreeableness, openness. If you take twins who are separated at birth, so they share 100% of their DNA, but then they're raised in different families, which is sad for them, but amazing for science. What you see is that they share about 50% of their traits. Whereas if you take two unrelated kids who are adopted into the same family, their personalities are no more similar than if they'd been raised in different families.
- [07:36]
Elise Hu
Yeah, in general, siblings, I mean, that's what people say. They're no more similar than two people who are raised on the street. And so then you get to this idea that, okay, well what is the parenting effect? You Know, people think it's very small. Obviously, there are many, many critics of twin studies, and there are many defenders of twin studies. I don't think it is a perfect science because twin studies work by inference, right? Like, you're not actually measuring something. So I think we're a long way from knowing. But what I always say is that I think parenting effects are much smaller than parents lead themselves to. Especially when you're coming down to the kinds of parenting choices that parenting books are really obsessing about. You know, do you use rewards or not? Do you co sleep or not? I think that it's probably hard to find real effects of that that are gonna make a huge difference in your child's life in terms of outcomes, right. Which is different from their moment to moment experience. Like, maybe your kid is gonna be outgoing whether they sleep in your bed or not, but maybe your kid's gonna feel delicious and happy sleeping in your bed with you, and you're gonna love it too. And so I always think that outcomes is, you know, overinflated as an important result in a way, when what we're really doing with our kids is living and loving with them moment to moment and wanting them to enjoy it. And we're wanting to enjoy it.
- [08:53]
Adam Grant
That's such an interesting point. I'd never really thought about it this way, that we shouldn't just be measuring parenting effects on the basis of who you become and what you achieve. We should be thinking about parents as affecting their kids day to day experiences.
- [09:08]
Elise Hu
And life is an accretion of those little moments. And it's hard to say, like, I had a million moments of feeling safe with my mother, you know, does that necessarily, like, translate into agreeability? Like, not necessarily. I mean, it's also complicated because let's say you're genetically maybe a little bit less inclined to be agreeable. Maybe you have fewer of those bonding moments with your mom, and you look back and you think, like, my mom was so unloving, you know, but like, one of the things that I think people are starting to understand is, and actually Judith Harris, who critiqued a lot of birth order studies, she was somebody who really wanted people to understand that children elicit a certain kind of parenting as well. And I think that, you know, if you're a child, let's say, with adhd, and you are extremely, you know, maybe difficult to rein in and very agitated because school is such a bummer for you, that might elicit a lesson, easy kind of parenting from your parent. And unfortunately, I do think that that also then has negative effects on a kid's development.
- [10:13]
Adam Grant
Possibly those feedback loops are real. I did just read a brand new study that I wanted to get your reaction to. Led by Jasmine Wirtz. It's a twin study of parenting and personality. And I think it's the most impressive of its kind that I've seen. You look at how mothers are interacting with their kids at ages 5 to 10 and then what their kids personalities are like over time up to age 18. And it turns out that if you compare two twins in the same family, the twin who gets more affection from their mom between 5 and 10 is more open, more conscientious and more agreeable at 18.
- [10:50]
Elise Hu
And this is fraternal twins or identical twins.
- [10:53]
Adam Grant
Yeah, so it is identical twins. It's interesting that little extra affection, you know, to a small degree is predictive of becoming a more agreeable, more conscientious, more open minded adult. And. Yeah, curious to hear what you think of that.
- [11:08]
Elise Hu
Yeah, I mean it's actually kind of a terrifying study. Right. Because I find great reassurance in the idea that, you know, these small decisions that you make on a day to day basis might not have such a powerful effect. But you know, interestingly, genetic research is finding that it's possible we have underappreciated the parenting effect because basically there are things that parents do kind of because of their own genetic predisposition that then we assumed that those parents, children inherited those traits. But we're seeing now that sometimes even when those kids don't inherit that gene pattern or those gene variations, the kids exhibit the same behavior. Like this is at, you know, at the level of genetic analysis. So now researchers are starting to think that yeah, maybe we have underappreciated the nurturing effect, the environmental effect of parenting because we were over assuming an actual genetic inheritance of those qualities when in fact maybe it really was environmental.
- [12:08]
Adam Grant
Really interesting. So in this particular study they do try to look at reverse causality and whether kids are eliciting different kinds of parenting patterns. They show, as you suspected, that kids who had more behavioral and emotional problems in ages 5 to 10 or in that range basically when they were young, when they had more problems, they got less affectionate parenting. However, if you control for their early behavioral and emotional problems, you still see that for whatever reason getting more affection early on predicted those personality tendencies later. Both stories probably have some support behind them. Yeah, it's a small correlation though to your earlier point. And so I think it sort of reinforces in some ways the thesis of Your book, which is parenting, is not irrelevant, but it's also not the sine qua non of a child's life. And I found this really liberating when I read your book. I came away thinking, okay, as long as you're not abusive or neglectful. A lot of the choices you make in terms of, you know, how your kids turn out are not as consequential as you think.
- [13:17]
Elise Hu
I mean, I do find that liberating as well. I do think the responsibility of how your child feels in the moment is also huge. But I think this idea that parents are burdened with, which is that if their child does not succeed in some socially conventional way, that they have not done their job. You know, obviously, I wrote a book about high achieving families. I was interested in that. But, you know, is it a parent's job to measure their child's, like, utility and successfulness in life? Like, even that is kind of problematic. And, I mean, why did I choose the families I wrote about? There's all kinds of success. You know, I was interested in parents who wanted their children to feel that they could do anything that they wanted, that the sky was kind of the limit, that they could be bold, that they could make a difference, that they could, you know, escape their circumstances. But I didn't find that those parents made the kids feel that they had to do those things either. To me, what was interesting is, how do you create that kind of environment, and how do you create a sense in a child that they think they can do whatever they want to do?
- [14:19]
Adam Grant
I really got a kick out of that. That on the one hand, you're taking on what is this big question of what does it take for parents to raise not just one superstar, but multiple superstars? And on the other hand, saying, hey, wait a minute. Children are not status symbols for parents. Like, don't define your own success by what your kids achieve.
- [14:38]
Elise Hu
Yeah. No. The idea that so many parents feel like it's their job to instill grit and conscientiousness in their children, I just feel like that so rarely ends well. You know, we live in an age of anxiety. But at the same time, I talk in the book about how I really admire this one family, the Paulus family. And the home environment was incredibly warm and nurturing, and they kind of outsourced all of the training and discipline. They lived in New York City, so they had tremendous resources. Their daughters went to very rigorous ballet schools that were, you know, not easy and could be quite challenging and were very critical. And they learned skills there like, better to learn those skills from a coach or a teacher or a mentor. I don't know that the home is the best place for that stuff.
- [15:21]
Adam Grant
Oh, that's interesting. I think especially as kids get older, that becomes important because they start to discount advice from their parents and resist pressure from their parents.
- [15:31]
Elise Hu
Right.
- [15:32]
Adam Grant
And it can become in some ways a self negating prophecy.
- [15:35]
Elise Hu
Lisa d' Amore calls it the kiss of death advice from a parent. You know, it's like if it comes from the parent, it will never happen. Because I actually do think not always, but there are definitely instances in which young people are more receptive to advice from an older sibling or maybe even a twin or even a younger sibling than they are from a parent. And, you know, siblings also see each other a little bit more clearly, I think, than their parents sometimes do. They also see how they operate in their peer group when adult eyes are not on them. They are of their generation, so they can have vision for them that their parents might not have, because their parents vision doesn't see that far into the future. So I was really surprised when I started this book. I started the book thinking I was really gonna find just these parents who had all sorts of sayings and rituals and, you know, I don't know, task charts. I don't know what I expected to find. And instead I really found at a lot of turns in the lives of these siblings. They could not all have been as successful as they were were it not for each other's advice, introductions, coaxing, encouragement, support, that kind of thing.
- [16:46]
Adam Grant
Role modeling.
- [16:47]
Elise Hu
Role modeling, yeah. Or even just like path clearing. You're not gonna have an older parent who gets to the University of Kansas, a huge state school before you do, and like, shows you for weeks and weeks and introduces you and gets you into the fraternity. Like, no, but your brother can do that for you or your sister can do that for you. And I think at these big schools or even small schools, it really can be incredibly meaningful to have an older sibling there.
- [17:11]
Adam Grant
Well, let's talk about the influence of siblings on each other in more depth. What was the study or body of research that most blew your mind on that?
- [17:20]
Elise Hu
Okay, so Emma Zhang, who's a sociologist at Yale, did this fascinating study. You know, it's hard to study siblings. Why? Because they have a lot of genetic overlap. So, you know, we know that when an older sibling does better in school, often there's what's called a sibling spillover effect. The younger one does better too. But it's really hard to separate out whether that younger child is just genetically similar or what's going on. So she took advantage of a natural experiment, which are school start dates. There's a lot of research that shows that kids who are old for their grade do better in school, you know, at least while they're in school, than kids who are young for their grade, especially in disadvantaged backgrounds. That seems to be a real boost. And so she looked at a relatively disadvantaged community and found that when a child, because of when that child's birthday, fell arbitrarily, was a little bit older than other kids in the grade, that kid did better in school. And then she looked at what happened with the younger siblings of those students, and what she found was that the younger siblings, regardless of whether they were old for their grade or young for their grade, they also started to do better in school. So what you see there is that there really is a strong sibling spillover effect that, you know, we don't know the mechanism necessarily. Like, how is it that one student's grade's improving, improves the other one' but it's a really great way to know that. Like, okay, we can see that they're really. Clearly, one older sibling's success is indeed raising the bar for the younger sibling. And it's just a great study. It's so pure, it's so well designed. And we talk about how assortive mating perpetuates economic discrepancies in class and in finances. And we talk about how parents like intergenerational wealth. That also affects it. But she believes that siblings, in a way, are responsible for the perpetuation of inequality.
- [19:04]
Adam Grant
That's fascinating. I think another domain where we see that often is in sports. I'm thinking of a study that Frank Soloway led of every group of brothers that ever played Major League Baseball. And by some measures, the younger siblings are better than the older siblings. They're more likely to steal bases, for example. And we think it's in part because they're more willing to take risks and in part because they're faster, because they always had an older brother who was better than them. And to your point, that seems to raise the bar.
- [19:35]
Elise Hu
But, you know, there's also other research that shows that oldest siblings are the most academic and also have the highest IQs. And I know that you talk about the effect of teaching and how that solidifies knowledge, but there is also research that finds that Even by age 1, the oldest child has stronger cognitive skills than their younger siblings. When those younger siblings reach the age of one, we don't think It's a prenatal effect or anything like that. I think most people think that parents really do just lavish more attention on the firstborn, by the way. Also scary, right? Like, in terms of parenting, like, it really does make how much attention you lavish on your child. Like, I think we can pretty much, in that first crucial year, we can definitely conclude that parents of twins, I feel for you as one of them. So, okay, so your oldest sibling is the strongest academically. Like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna throw yourself into sports. Basically, that's, you know, an individuation kind of phenomenon.
- [20:27]
Adam Grant
In evolutionary terms, it's niche picking. Right. The academic high achiever niche is filled. And so I'm gonna find a different niche to stand out.
- [20:34]
Elise Hu
Yeah. And it is illustrated beautifully in the first chapter of the book by the Groff family. I mean, it was almost as if Sarah True, who now is studying psychology at the graduate level and who is an Olympic triathlete and had been this Ironman champion, It was almost as if she was familiar with the research. I mean, she was telling me that her older siblings were extraordinary students and she chose to throw herself into athletics and sport because she knew, as she put it, they wouldn't touch it, that it was safe for her. Lauren Groff, who's this award winning novelist and incredible beautiful writer, also happens to be a tremendous, tremendous athlete. And, you know, it's conceivable that if she had pursued a sport with the same intensity that her sister did, that she too could have really gone quite far. But that wasn't what she wanted to do, and Sarah knew it, so she went for it.
- [21:19]
Adam Grant
Okay, come back to this. This IQ difference already being visible at age one. I don't think that negates the Tudor effect, really. You know, that starts to emerge later.
- [21:28]
Elise Hu
Oh, so it's maybe it's a one, two punch is what you're talking about.
- [21:31]
Adam Grant
Maybe, yeah. And it may be a cumulative advantage then, that as the oldest child, you get more attention from your parents early. And then if you have siblings, you get to teach them and learn more through kind of being their mentor and tutor.
- [21:44]
Elise Hu
So that makes actual perfect sense. I mean, what I was starting to say earlier, I was referencing this economist, Joseph Hoets, who talks about how parents not only, okay, maybe they lavish more attention on the firstborn, but they also have more rules and they have higher expectations and they enforce things like no television and you must study for two hours a night. And his theory is that it comes from an economic kind of analysis, which is if there is gonna be a triple effect, it's most efficient to make the oldest child as successful and high achieving as that child possibly can be because there's so many children after them whom it will influence. By the time you're the fourth child, there's nobody at. If they're not gonna have a fifth child, there's nobody for you to influence, so why bother, you know. So it's very interesting theory.
- [22:29]
Adam Grant
It's really hard to imagine parents being this calculative and thinking, well, you know, if I've, if I'm gonna have three or four kids, it makes the most economic sense to invest my energy in child one, who can then spill over some of that learning to child two and three.
- [22:43]
Elise Hu
I would hazard to guess that he would say it's happening at some subconscious level that they're not even aware of.
- [22:49]
Adam Grant
Possibly, but I don't know.
- [22:52]
Elise Hu
It's interesting to me.
- [22:53]
Adam Grant
I just, you know, I think Occam's razor would, would point in the direction of like, really interesting finding. Most parsimonious explanation is like, parents have more time and energy available when they have an only child.
- [23:05]
Elise Hu
Agreed. I think that's probably right. Although it keeps going even after the kids are, you know, even after they have more than one child, they're still enforcing more homework rules and things like that with the oldest child.
- [23:14]
Adam Grant
Yeah. And again, why is that happening? Like my hunch would be, and I'm very curious to hear your take, but having lived it, the oldest is the first one to confront every new rule and you know, then like the second and third children and they can sort of poke holes in the boundary a little bit and get a little bit more flexibility and you lower your standards a little bit.
- [23:36]
Elise Hu
As a parent, I think that does seem like it makes the most sense. And the more children you have, the busier you are. And as you say, well, you have different expectations, partly based on your, maybe your preconceptions of birth order. Anyway, there's a lot of very large data set based research that suggests that birth order effects are largely imaginary and something that families kind of impose. It's a way of telling a story, but it's rarely upheld in very big studies these days.
- [24:08]
Adam Grant
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- [24:58]
Elise Hu
TED Talks Daily is supported by Northwestern Mutual. If you want a better way to plan, relax and retire, then tune in to the award winning podcast, A Better Way to Money. In each episode, experts have deeper conversations about how real people like you are tackling their finances. From navigating a job change to talking about money with your family to retirement. Listen to A Better Way to Money wherever you find your podcasts or learn more@nm.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Ready to order? Yes. We're earning unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with a Capital One Saver card. So let's just get one of everything. Everything.
- [25:36]
Adam Grant
Fire everything. The Capital One Saver card is at.
- [25:39]
Elise Hu
Table 27 and they're earning unlimited 3% cash back.
- [25:43]
Adam Grant
Yes.
- [25:43]
Elise Hu
Yes, Chef. This is so nice.
- [25:45]
Adam Grant
Had a feeling you'd want 3% cash back on dessert.
- [25:48]
Elise Hu
Ooh, tiramisu.
- [25:49]
Adam Grant
Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with the Capital One Saver Card. Capital One what's in your wallet?
- [25:56]
Elise Hu
Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details.
- [26:02]
Adam Grant
So let's make this personal. How has writing this book changed your parenting?
- [26:08]
Elise Hu
Well, I have fraternal twins. As you may know.
- [26:11]
Adam Grant
They're teenagers now, right?
- [26:12]
Elise Hu
They're in college. Yeah. Certainly the twin studies research did make me feel like, you know, a little bit more relaxed about whatever I felt responsible for and also suspect of whatever I wanted to praise myself for in terms of what was going on with my children. I do think that I talk about this a little bit in the book. There's a researcher at Yale named Julia Leonard who does a lot of work on how quickly parents jump in to help their kids when they're struggling. For example, if they're just working on a puzzle or something like that. And the research also finds that it's just incredibly demotivating for kids when their parents do jump in. Her research also finds that in things like even just getting dressed in the morning, parents underestimate how capable their children are. And I think that I probably was too quick to jump in. I wish I had, you know, hung back a little bit, been a little bit less nervous, let my kids figure it out on Their own. I had a lot of admiration for the Gro and the way that they would, you know, even do small things. Like Jeanine Groff would put the plastic cups and plates for her kids on the lower level of the cabinet, you know, like at floor level, basically, so that they could help themselves. And it was very empowering. So that's. I think that's. That's probably the main way that I was trying to keep an eye on my own parenting as I was going through it.
- [27:35]
Adam Grant
Okay, so the main way it changed you is you now regret not letting your kids learn to do things themselves.
- [27:42]
Elise Hu
Well, I think I was learning things on the go. I think also, you know, it's hard to change yourself. First of all, like, let's be honest about that. There's a great quote from. Do you know Dan Belsky, the epidemiologist? Have you ever worked with him? We were just making conversation and we were talking about this idea that parents, is it even appropriate to want to change your child's personality? Right. Do you want to make your child grittier? Let's say. Is that the job of a parent to change your child's personality? Here's a big one. As you know from your work on introversion, a lot of parents want their kid to be more extroverted than their child naturally is. Like, that's a tough one, right? And he said to me, listen, if I gave you parenting about how to change your child, then you'd have to change yourself in order to adopt that parenting advice. And if you think changing your child is hard, try changing yourself.
- [28:27]
Adam Grant
I think we live in a time where people are constantly blaming their parents for the ways they didn't turn out. And I wonder if you think that the people are placing blame too much on their parents.
- [28:41]
Elise Hu
It's hard to separate out the rise of Freud in a way, from the moment of 60s and 70s when people started overturning authority in general. Right. Like, they both sort of point to the same thing, which is, you know, mom, dad, bad, and authority also bad. It's kind of part of a bigger cultural moment that we have inherited and are still dealing with. I do wonder if it's. If something specific to Gen X generation, because I do think that there's research that suggests that young people today are closer to their parents and it's a more warm relationship. So I think it's almost as if, like Gen Xers, our expectations were raised by therapy enough just to know kind of what a healthy relationship should look like. But our parents didn't necessarily get the memo. And so I think there is reason probably, for a lot of people to be disappointed. I mean, you know, a lot of my friends, when we talk about whatever was happening in our own home, will say, you know, consistent with the parenting standards of the time, you know, which have. Which have really changed.
- [29:44]
Adam Grant
I wanted to ask you for a second about the comparisons that were illuminating and less illuminating as you were researching the book. I think it's really tempting to just go and study the positive exemplars, like these families where multiple siblings did great things. But we don't want to select on the dependent variable. We want to make sure, obviously, that whatever these families have in common is actually different from the ones where their kids didn't succeed. What did you learn from contrasting these families with all these successful kids with the ones where only one sibling made it or none did?
- [30:23]
Elise Hu
Okay, well, first of all, I talk a lot in my book about luck, and I think you can't discount that. And, you know, sometimes when parents have three kids who all hit it out of the park, it is because of a combination of luck, of the genetic lottery, which is a real thing. It could also just. Just be luck that none of. Yeah, that none of those kids had, you know, a predisposition to substance abuse or a predisposition to adhd. Of course, there are plenty of wildly successful people with adhd, but it can make school a little bit harder. So it's a combination of just, you know, what was the genetic roll of the dice like? And then also, what were the circumstances that happened in those children's lives? Maybe each of them also was the beneficiary of luck. I think very successful people often can point to lucky moments in their lives that were really, really fateful. But I do think that there was a real spirit of optimism and positivity in a lot of the families that I wrote about. Not to be too corny, but it wasn't just that the parents themselves were optimistic, but they actually articulated these things, or the kids felt it so deeply. Like Marilyn Holifield, who was the first black female partner at a major law firm in Florida and was one of three kids who desegregated her high school in Tallahassee, whose parents were quite extraordinary. She said the unspoken motto in her household was all things possible. And in the Mergia family, four of their seven children were wildly successful. Their mother used to say, with God's help, all things are possible. You know, really similar kinds of things. And, you know, that. That really struck me. I always joke that the Only saying I remember my father saying consistently was if something seems too good to be true, it usually is. And lo and behold, you know, here I am a journalist, right?
- [32:05]
Adam Grant
There's a self fulfilling prophecy.
- [32:06]
Elise Hu
Did you take away anything that you would do more of after reading the book that you thought about?
- [32:11]
Adam Grant
As a parent, I've never wanted to be one of those psychologists who screws up our kids. And so I'm reluctant to be overly systematic and analytical about saying here's what all the evidence says and what I should do with it. Your point that parents behaviors sometimes don't matter as much as we think and siblings actually affect each other a lot. That's probably my biggest takeaway from the book. And it has gotten me thinking differently about when I'm tempted to try to give our kids some advice or feedback instead to say, okay, how can I sort of plant the seed for one of our kids to then deliver this message to another? Yeah, and then I start to second guess that. But let me make this more concrete with an example. So I was being really careful to talk about college just with our oldest and not let our other two be around. And your book got me thinking about how actually the oldest child sets the standard, but also provides all this insight. So why, why not make this a family conversation and start talking about like, why is college important to us? What do we think matters in a college? Our kids have really enjoyed thinking about it and imagining their like their future selves on a campus. So thank you for that.
- [33:32]
Elise Hu
Oh, I'm really glad to hear that. I think what I came away feeling was, and it's the expectations research that really made me feel this way. You have to know your kid, you know, you have to know your kid and know what your child is capable of. Because we know that if you set the expectation too high, it can actually be counterproductive. Right. You want to set them like just high enough that it actually is going to have an effect that they feel like you believe in them and that, you know, they can do their best work, but not so high that it becomes pressure. As we've said, where this is like generation anxiety and how do we make sure that we're not creating unrealistic expectations? I think parents sometimes look at their kids. You know, when my kids were born, one of them had a heartbeat that went like boom chicka boom chicka. And the other one's heartbeat seemed to me to go like, rocka chicka, rocka chicka. I can't explain it. They were like different. And the pediatrician I said to her, I don't understand their heartbeats actually sound different. And she said, that's because they're different humans. And I think that parents sometimes think I raised my kids just the same way. I read them the same books. The first one's getting as and the second one should be getting nothing but A's. Also, they're my children, you know, they have the same exposure, they have the same expectations. And it's really, really not fair. Like the kids need to be evaluated as individuals and you can't just by setting an expectation, elicit precisely the behavior that you want from your child. Expectations are nice. They're guidelines. They, they give a kid a framework to, to move in. But you can't expect that just by setting those expectations, you're going to make it happen.
- [35:05]
Adam Grant
I think that's, that's. This episode is sponsored by Framer. If you've ever tried to build a website and felt boxed in by templates, you're not alone. Most no code tools promise flexibility but end up delivering compromise. That's where Framer comes in. Framer is the design first. No code website builder that lets anyone ship a production ready site in minutes. Whether you're starting from one of over 700 pixel perfect templates or a totally blank canvas, you're in control. No code, no cookie cutter designs, just your ideas. Your way need help. Built in AI can generate layouts, suggest brand colors, and even auto translate your site into other languages. And with real time collaboration, your whole team can edit the same page at the same time without version control. Headaches. It's powerful under the hood too. Edge hosting, responsive breakpoints, SEO and privacy friendly analytics. No cookie banners required. Ready to build a site that looks hand coded without hiring a developer? Start free today@Famer.com Go to Framer.com to start building a site for free. Framer.com this episode is sponsored by Freshworks. Let's be real Work doesn't work like it used to. Your customers want answers. Yesterday, your IT team is juggling five fires and a broken ticketing system, and your software probably slowing you down. That's where freshworks comes in. Freshworks builds uncomplicated IT and customer service software that actually helps teams move faster without the bloated systems or costs that come with layers and layers of consultants. Whether you're leading it or managing customer support, FreshService and FreshDesk were designed to help you deliver real ROI today, not someday. And with a people first approach to AI, freshworks helps you do more, not just automate more because tech should unlock human potential, not replace it. So go ahead, uncomplicate your business. Learn more@freshworks.com this episode is sponsored by Udemy. You've probably felt it that sense that the pace of change at work is outpacing your skills. In a world where capabilities matter more than credentials, staying competitive means constantly evolving. That's where Udemy comes in. Udemy is an AI powered reskilling platform that helps individuals and teams build real world skills that matter. From leadership and communication to AI and data science. I've spent my career studying how people thrive at work and it's clear insight isn't enough. You need tools to apply it. Udemy is one of those platform. It's practical, personalized and built around your goals. If you're feeling stuck trying to pivot or want to stay ahead in the age of AI, Udemy can help give you the skills to confidently take control of your career. Visit udemy.com that's U-E-M-Y.com to explore plans for people and businesses and subscribe free for seven days. Okay, it's time for a lightning round. Tell me what you think is the worst parenting advice that people give or get.
- [38:19]
Elise Hu
If you don't punish your child, they'll never learn. Like, I think punishment is equal to shame, and I think there's nothing worse for children than shame.
- [38:27]
Adam Grant
What about the best advice on parenting that you heard from any of the families you studied?
- [38:33]
Elise Hu
Just don't break them. That was said by a woman who had four extraordinarily high achieving kids. And I remember asking her, you know, what did you do exactly? And she said, I just didn't break them. And what she meant by that was I had bright, interesting, talented kids and I didn't feel like that was my opportunity to then push them to the max and, you know, run them ragged with tutoring and Mandarin lessons and fencing and expectations. She just let them be kids and they did what they had to do.
- [39:05]
Adam Grant
What's something you've changed your mind about?
- [39:07]
Elise Hu
You know, at some point over the course of my research, I found that very academic kids, the ones who end up sort of thriving the most, are the ones who've had like the most challenges put in front of them. And I felt like this huge responsibility to make sure that my bright kids had like all of the enrichment that would maximize their potential. And now that they're off at college and you know, I think partly because the world is such a hot mess, I've sort of reverted back to the way my own parents parented, which was like, you know what? Over the summer, go have fun, go be outside, go swim in a lake, go see something beautiful. I just think life is too short. And I really do want my kids to just experience joy. I think I have become less achievement oriented and more desirous that they love their lives and experience the best of what the world has to offer.
- [39:56]
Adam Grant
And what's the question you have for me?
- [39:58]
Elise Hu
I talk about this a little bit in the book about how, you know, I'm suspect of this idea of trying to make your kid more extroverted. But there is some good research that people who are forced to be more extroverted are happier. There's also some research that finds that people who are forced to be extroverted sort of have their energy depleted. And you're like such an expert on this. Where do you ultimately stand on that?
- [40:17]
Adam Grant
That I think forced is a bad idea. I think encouraged, like, we all need to expand our range when it comes to the capacity to play different roles. And just as I think an extrovert needs to learn how to be introverted, sometimes to study quietly to read, an introvert needs to learn how to occasionally put on a show. And I think that with practice, what we know is that that becomes less uncomfortable and starts to feel a little bit more, as Brian Littlewood put it, second nature. But I don't like the idea, sue, of saying, like, I'm an introvert and I want to become an extrovert. No, what I want to do is I want to try on a more extroverted version of myself and figure out if that's a mode that I can get a little bit more comfortable.
- [41:09]
Elise Hu
And so much of what we do is about tinkering around the edges. That's the best we can hope for, is you tinker around the edges in just the right proportions, that you're doing the best you can for your kids and you're not overdoing it, which could then have like a boomerang effect.
- [41:22]
Adam Grant
Well, this was such a fun and thought provoking conversation. And as always, I'm so impressed with the depth and breadth of your knowledge.
- [41:29]
Elise Hu
Thank you so much, Adam.
- [41:35]
Adam Grant
Sue made me rethink something that I've been telling parents for years. I have said your success as a parent is not determined by whether your kids get into elite schools or prestigious professions. I still stand by that. But I've also said that the real test of parenting is not what kids achieve, but who they become and how they treat others. And I'm now questioning that because we don't know how much of a difference parents really make when it comes to children's character. What we do know is that parents should the quality of experiences that kids have and how they remember their upbringing. And I think that's where we definitely make a difference as parents. Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser, our editor is Alejandra Salazar, our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson, our technical director is Jacob Winnick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hylash Ben Ben Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale sue and Alison Layton Brown. So we know in hockey that if you're born in January, you're more likely to become an elite player. But the kids who are born in October and November, if they make it, are best because it seems they had to be that much better in order to make it as a relatively younger kid.
- [43:04]
Elise Hu
Tell me more about that.
- [43:05]
Adam Grant
I just told you everything I know about it. That's all I got. Now at Verizon we have some big news for your peace of mind for all our customers, existing and new. We're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on my plan and my home. That's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan when you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.
- [43:42]
Elise Hu
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Adam Grant
Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change.
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Elise Hu
See capitalone.com for details.
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Adam Grant
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