← Worklife with Molly Graham
Worklife with Molly Graham
The right risks to take for a great career with Molly Graham (from How to Be a Better Human)
00:41:37
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- [00:01]
Molly Graham
We're lost. It feels like we're going round in circles. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the state fairgrounds.
- [00:10]
Chris Duffy
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree at this here road. Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
- [00:17]
Molly Graham
How is there signal out here?
- [00:19]
Chris Duffy
T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together so the network out here is huge. We get the same great signal as the city, so saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too. Okay, here's the turn.
- [00:31]
Molly Graham
Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?
- [00:35]
Chris Duffy
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available at US Cellular stores in Hermiston. Best Mobile network Based on analysis by Ooklo Speed test intelligence data second half of 2025 bigger network the combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees. Fees apply CT mobile.com for details.
- [00:59]
Molly Graham
This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping using self reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks. It doesn't just help buyers find a car they love, it helps schedule a test drive, get pre approved for financing and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One.
- [01:29]
Chris Duffy
This podcast is brought to you by
- [01:30]
Ad/Promo Announcer
Wise, the app for international people using
- [01:33]
Chris Duffy
money around the globe.
- [01:34]
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With the Wise account, you can send, spend and receive in over 40 currencies with no markups and no hidden fees. Whether you're sending pounds across the pond,
- [01:43]
Chris Duffy
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- [01:50]
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Plus most transfers arrive in less than 20 seconds. Join 15 million customers internationally.
- [01:56]
Chris Duffy
Be smart, Get Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Ts and Cs apply.
- [02:04]
Molly Graham
Hi work Life listeners. It's me, Molly Graham and I'm so excited to begin the next chapter of Work Life with you as your new host. But our episodes won't be ready for you until next Tuesday, April 28th. So today I'm sharing a special conversation I had with comedian, writer, and host of the TED podcast, How to Be a Better Human, Chris Duffy. Coming up, you'll hear a bit more about my career and my perspective. I really enjoyed my conversation with Chris, so I hope you will, too. Now on to the episode.
- [02:36]
Chris Duffy
This is how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show, our guest is Molly Graham. And Molly is, among many other things, a very successful business person, a writer, and the new host of ted's Work Life podcast. So we're going to be talking to her about how the rules for building a great career have evolved and what it takes to navigate this new work landscape. You know, when I was searching for my first job, I really, really, really wanted to write for a newspaper. I was positive that I wanted to be a traditional newspaper journalist. But then everywhere I applied, they were cutting positions rather than hiring. I couldn't get a job, and I needed a job that would let me pay my bills. So I just started applying for anything and everything, and I ended up getting a position teaching English abroad. And then I got a job teaching at an elementary school in Boston. And I could never, ever, ever have predicted that starting there would lead me to be here hosting this podcast and talking to you right now. In fact, one of the biggest lessons that I've learned, maybe the only career lesson that I feel totally confident standing behind, is that you cannot predict how things will turn out. Like it or not, you are going to be surprised. So how do you help people to figure out how to navigate a career path if you can't possibly know what's coming next? Well, that is exactly the kind of challenge that Molly lives for to get us started. Here's a clip from Molly's TED Talk where she's addressing one of the biggest misconceptions that people have about their jobs and their career choices. Here's Molly.
- [03:59]
Molly Graham
There's a lot of pressure around what it takes to build a great career. And it all comes back to this idea that you're supposed to know what you want to do. It's an idea that I like to call the stairs. Here's how the stairs go. You show up in college, and you're supposed to know what you want to major in. That major is supposed to lead you to your first job, and then you get another job and you get promoted and promoted and promoted forever. The best part about the stairs is safety and security. It feels like you know what you need to do to get ahead. The worst part of the stairs is that it's like a weird video game that you can get stuck inside of for years. The stairs will make you feel like your self worth is tied to your title or your last performance rating or your next promotion. But the truth is that the stairs are an illusion these days. Excellent careers are not built by excellent stair climbers.
- [05:10]
Chris Duffy
Okay, we're going to figure out how to get off the stairs and into a great job or a great series of jobs right after this break. But first, my job includes the requirement of reading you these podcast ads.
- [05:25]
Ad/Promo Announcer
This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn for small businesses, Every hire matters. But here's the challenge. You need to find the right person without turning hiring into a full time job itself. A bad hire can be costly, not just financially, but in team morale and momentum. And the process can be exhausting. Sorting through applications, trying to identify who actually has the skills you need. All while running your business. That's where LinkedIn Hiring Pro comes in. It's designed to streamline the entire hiring process. You can draft job posts, shortlist candidates, and even conduct AI powered screening interviews. Its updated conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. No recruiter jargon needed. Less searching, more connecting with real talent. Hire right the first time. Post your first job and get $100 off toward your job. Post@LinkedIn.com worklife that's LinkedIn.com worklife terms and conditions apply.
- [06:18]
Molly Graham
This episode is powered by AT&T Business. If you're running your own business, you know that the Sunday scaries are real. You're thinking about the invoices, the client calls, the inventory, the list that never actually ends. And honestly, we usually don't think about our Internet or our phone service until it isn't working. Sometimes a simple glitch can feel like a total catastrophe. That feeling of powerlessness when your tech fails you is the worst. It's a reminder that our connectivity isn't just a bill we pay, it's the backbone of everything we do. AT&T business gets that. They know that for a small business owner, good enough isn't good enough. You need reliability that stays in the background so you can stay in the lead. If you're tired of the friction points and just want a provider that understands the stakes, check out ATT business. AT&T business is a reliable provider for small business owners. For Small Business Month, we celebrate small businesses by helping them run better. That means reliable uptime, easy switching, smart communications powered by AT&T Business Built to Work get att business@business.att.com this episode is sponsored by Rula. May is Mental Health Awareness Month. And it's important to not only talk about mental health, but to take action and get people real support. But sometimes that's way harder than it should be. A lot of online therapy doesn't accept insurance at all, which means taking care of your mental health requires paying out of pocket or signing up for an expense expensive monthly subscription. But Rula does things differently. They partner with over 120 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price point that actually makes sense. With a network of over 23,000 therapists nationwide, Rula can help you find the right one for you based on your needs, preferences and state requirements. This mental Health Awareness Month, don't just think about your mental health, actually take the step to take care of it. Visit rula.comworklife to get started. That's r u l a.comworklife. you deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
- [08:41]
Chris Duffy
And we are back. We're talking with Molly Graham about how to build a great career, whether you are just starting out or you're many years in.
- [08:48]
Molly Graham
Hi, I'm Molly Graham. I'm the new host of ted's podcast Work Life. And I'm also a company builder, a writer, a community builder, and some other things that I'm still trying to figure out.
- [09:02]
Chris Duffy
Well, Molly, I'm so glad I'm getting to talk to you. Not just because we are in the, you know, TED siblings now in the podcast world, but also because I think you do such interesting work and you think about work in such an interesting way. And especially for me, a person who's like, never had a corporate job, right? Like, I worked at an elementary school and then I was a comedian and now podcasting. Like none of these are like regular traditional hierarchy. So I love the way that you talk about a world that is for me like largely foreign in and make it so relatable. But also you take those lessons that I know are really practical for people who are working in traditional work environments and also make it practical for people like me who are not in traditional work environments.
- [09:44]
Molly Graham
Well, first, thanks, that's very nice. And second, I'm so fascinated by your path too. Just like you've done such an interesting job defining what moves you and what feels right to you. And that to me is like the most interesting quest in work.
- [09:59]
Chris Duffy
Well, if people are following me into the wild blue yonder, we all are doomed. So that's my number one takeaway, but I will take the compliment. And let's look at this concept from your TED Talk, which is you talk about this concept called the stairs. So can you tell me a little bit about what the stairs are and why you believe that's a career model that we should maybe have in mind as we're thinking about how our career could be going or maybe should be going?
- [10:25]
Molly Graham
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think the stairs, like, I think a lot about folks graduating from college, and I think there's a lot of panic around, like, finding your first job. And, and this sense that if you don't get it right, then you're on the wrong path forever. And, you know, we could talk about first jobs a lot, but, but part of the point of like, I think what happens when you get that first job is you, you end up on this, this set of stairs that you didn't even know existed. And, and the idea of the stairs is basically like, it's kind of like our parents generation. Like, at least my dad, like, he, he worked in the same place for 40 years. I feel like when I left my first job, my dad was like, you. You're doing what? Like, you're leaving. You're leaving a job. You know, and I. So many of my friends have the same thing with their parents, where their parents did the same thing in this. You know, they might have done different jobs in a, in a company, but they were in the same company. And this is actually a picture someone drew on a whiteboard for me way back in the day where he was sort of like, look, you can stay in the same company and you can walk up these stairs and, and, and it does have kind of a rhythm to it when you're in these bigger companies where, like, every two years or three years you get promoted and your job changes from Manager 1 to Manager 2, and you end up having this sense, or at least I think that all corporate, you know, compensation systems are give you this sense of like, if I just keep going up these stairs, somewhere up there is like this pot of gold or like this award or this medal. But in theory, it's like, methodical, straightforward, but it's also like, both, like, extremely boring in lots of ways where, like, I think you can get very stuck in sort of their version of what is successful and what is good. And also in a lot of cases, it doesn't always give you the chance to test yourself. But yeah, that's, that's the stairs.
- [12:13]
Chris Duffy
You know, it's interesting because I Think for a lot of people, especially coming right out of college or high school, right, there's such a set vision of what success looks like, right? You go to school, you submit your work, your work is graded. There's a clear sense of what a successful grade is, what a failing grade is. You got 100 on a test, you got a 90 on a test, you got an 80. Those all mean really clear things. And then we get into the work world and, and we want, at least a lot of us really want that same kind of clarity of what success looks like. Like, what is an A at my job? What is an A plus at my job? What's an F at my job? And I think it's really challenging for a lot of people to realize, like that's just not how the world outside of school works as much. There isn't one set definition of success.
- [12:58]
Molly Graham
Totally. And you know, imagine, imagine that for comedians, Chris, like, what is an A? You know, what is an F?
- [13:05]
Chris Duffy
Totally. You know what I think, honestly, when I talk to people, especially people who are not already in performing arts and want to be, the hardest part about it that I think is hard to grasp before you do it is that there is no promotion in this job, right? Like your job title is comedian. And the difference between when you are a completely terrible comedian and not making a single cent and not making a single person laugh, and when you're hugely successful, it's still the same title. And so you don't ever have like this clear, I've advanced to the next level. It always feels like much murkier than you think it might from the outside.
- [13:42]
Molly Graham
Yeah, totally. And I, I really think like from from the moment you step out of college and whatever, you know, framework that is today for forever, there's always this sense of like, oh, someone has the answer and I just need to find it. Do you know what I mean? Like, totally. Like someone else. I just, if I imitate that person or that's, you know, and I always say it actually often like there's just like a door that if you could just like get behind the door, then everything will make sense. But then one of the things that happens in life is you like open a door and you like walk through it and you're like, oh, there's another door. Do you know what I mean? And it's like this never ending set of doors, you know, obviously that becomes then like, what is success? And you know, I always, I think about this a lot for like, you know, so much of the goal in the World of Hollywood and whatever is like, oh, win an Oscar. Get this award, whatever. And I'm always like, yeah, but then you win an Oscar, and then it's like, but then I need to win another Oscar. Like, it's like all these doors that, again, you get through it, and you're like, but I'm not, you know, I'm not Julia Roberts or I'm not Meryl Streep, and, like, am I successful? And I think it. Eventually, you really have to, like, face down that question of, like, what is successful?
- [14:49]
Chris Duffy
To me, there's an interesting thing where I think the difference between, like, meaning and value and success. And I would probably put quotes around success because it's like, what do we think of as success? Which often just means, like, making money or having a particular title. And those actually aren't very often very meaningful or bringing a lot of value to your life, because, like you said, you get there, and then it's like, well. Well, what actually comes next?
- [15:15]
Molly Graham
You know, I think of those as kind of external definitions of success, meaning they look successful to other people. And I think when I was early in my career, that is how I thought about success. I was like, I'm just gonna crush this stuff and get promoted, and other people will. It matters to me what other people think of me. Right. It matters to me that. That I've proven myself. Like, I've proven myself that I'm good. But a lot of it was, like, proving myself to, like, all the people around me that I was good.
- [15:40]
Chris Duffy
Yeah.
- [15:40]
Molly Graham
And. And, you know, that did come in the form of these externalities. And then I think I, like so many of my friends, hit a moment where I had the title or I had the job that I kind of, like, thought I wanted to. And I was like, oh. Like, I have this friend that tells the story. I actually told it in the TED Talk where she's, like, climbing this ladder and literally gets to be CEO and then goes, is this all there is? You know, like, I'm. I don't like this. And it's like, well, then what? You know, And I think there's just these moments when you get out of that sort of I'm proving myself phase, and you have to really ask, like, okay, what is my definition of success? You know, and to your point about meaning and value, what matters to me?
- [16:24]
Chris Duffy
Okay, so we've already opened up so many of the threads that I. That I want to chase down during this. This conversation, and one of them is, you know, we talked about the stairs. The. The Flip side, the other way of approaching a career that is, is a framework that I learned from you is that this J curve, the idea that we, we get somewhere and then we jump and it's kind of we jump off a cliff, we go backwards in some ways in our career in terms of like, it doesn't feel like we're making progress, it feels like we're getting worse. It maybe feels like we're making less money, but it an entirely new place. So can you talk a little bit about what the J curve is and then a little bit about how that has guided you in your own career decisions?
- [17:01]
Molly Graham
Yeah, totally. So this is something I experienced really intimately when I was. I spent five years at Facebook and I spent the first two years in HR and recruiting helping sort of figure out who we were and how we wanted to talk about, you know, why you should come work at the company and what kinds of people belonged. And then I think I did well in that. And so somebody came to me and said, do you want to come help me build a mobile phone? And I was like, first of all, why are we doing that? That sounds like a terrible idea. But then second of all, I was like, why are you asking me? Like, I'm highly, highly unqualified for this. But then I was just kind of like one of those ideas I couldn't put away. And I remember this conversation with a friend of mine where he said, like, you've proven you're really good in hr and these are like, really big, like complicated company wide projects. Why don't you go see how actually good you are? And, and it was this like, oh, like, I'm gonna go figure out if I can do this. And this was the moment, by the way, when the person, the guy that was trying to hire me and get me to come work on the phone drew the stairs for me. And he was like, basically it was him being like, you can be boring and stay on these stupid stairs or you can jump off a cliff with me. So it was like, that was his pitch. And he was like, the most interesting careers are built by people that are willing to throw themselves into something that they might not be good at, that they might not be successful at, because it. You basically buy this like, incredible learning curve about yourself and about the world. And so I bought in. I was like, okay, let's see. And I, I went to work on this mobile phone project knowing absolutely nothing about phones or the mobile industry or anything. And I immediately just felt like the dumbest person in the entire world. Like I was sitting in rooms with just, oh, my God, the smartest people asking the stupidest questions, you know? And I felt embarrassed. I felt like an idiot. I felt like I didn't know what I was doing for really six to nine months. But slowly I learned. I mean, I learned so much. I think it was unclear for a while if I was, like, ever going to feel competent, you know? And I was just talking to someone who just did this, and she was like, I'm three months into it, and I still feel like I only know what I'm doing 30% of the time. And I was like, you're on track. Like, give it. Give it three more months, and you might have a moment where you feel competent. Because that's what happened to me. Like, six months into it. I think it was like, six. Might have been nine. I flew home from Taiwan, where I had been working with hardware manufacturers, and I drew the hardware layout for a mobile phone on a whiteboard for my boss. And I was basically explaining to him why something that he wanted to have happen couldn't happen. But I explained it to him, like, very precisely. And I remember him looking at me being like, whoa, dude. And me sort of having this feeling of like, oh, I actually know things. And that was the moment of what, you know? So for me, with, like. With jumping off cliffs or the J curve, like, you basically fall, you hit the bottom, and then you start to climb out. And that feeling of like, oh, I'm someone different than I was six months ago because I have all these skills and all this knowledge, but it also, like, I have a different level of confidence all of a sudden. Like, I can do things that I didn't know I could do. And for me, that phone project, which I was then on for three years, which, by the way, was a giant failure. So, like, yeah, the project was a failure, but it was not a failure for me. Like, I. I learned so much about myself, good and bad, but the most important thing it taught me was that I love that kind of learning and that I really. I now say, like, I only take jobs that I'm highly, highly unqualified for. When someone offers me a job I know I can do, I'm like, that sounds boring to me.
- [20:45]
Chris Duffy
Well, so, yeah, this is something that I wanted to. To. Because I think a lot of us limit ourselves because we're so worried that we might fail and that that would be actually a terrible thing, as opposed to realizing that that is the path to getting better at anything involves failing over and over and over.
- [21:00]
Molly Graham
Again, you know, someone posted this quote, they posted a statement when I. My TED Talk got posted and the person said, you know, people think that you have to be confident to act. And the truth is confidence comes because of action. You don't have to be confident in order to act. Or if you wait for confidence, like, you just might be waiting a really long time. But for me, like, actually one of my greatest strengths is being kind of an idiot and asking a lot of dumb questions and being able. You can put me in literally any situation in almost any business in the world and I will be able to learn it. And I don't think most people have the confidence to say they can do that, you know, so the only way you learn these things about yourself, what you're capable of, what you're really exceptional at, is by trying. And part of trying is failing, right? Like, one of my phases at Facebook on this phone project was somebody, I think the last phase, Mark asked me if I wanted to be the product manager for it because prior to that I was sort of like in partnerships and hardware and operations. And he was like, do you want to be the product manager, which is sort of the person that runs the whole project. There was something inside me that said like, that doesn't sound like fun, but I was so confused at the time that I was just like, sure, it's the job that everybody inside of a tech company wants. So I'll be the product manager. Just FYI, no one should ever hire me to be a product manager. I was like, it was like really learning. Like, oh, I both like hate this and I'm really bad at it. So like, it wasn't all wins, but it was this like incredible journey of self discovery.
- [22:38]
Chris Duffy
Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but then we will be back to discover more about Molly and ourselves. Don't go anywhere.
- [22:53]
Ad/Promo Announcer
This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. For small businesses, every hire matters. But here's the challenge. You need to find the right person without turning hiring into a full time job itself. A bad hire can be costly, not just financially, but in team morale and momentum. And the process can be exhausting. Sorting through applications, trying to identify who actually has the skills you need, all while running your business. That's where LinkedIn Hiring Pro comes in. It's designed to streamline the entire hiring process. You can draft job posts, shortlist candidates, and even conduct AI powered screening interviews. Its updated conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. No recruiter jargon needed. Less searching, more connecting with real talent hire right the first time, post your first job and get $100 off toward your job. Post@LinkedIn.com worklife that's LinkedIn.com worklife terms and conditions apply.
- [23:46]
Molly Graham
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- [25:56]
Chris Duffy
And we are back. For me personally, when I left my job as a teacher and when I was leaving the fifth grade classroom and I was going to start trying to make a living in comedy and radio and podcasting and all of that, it felt so much before I did it, like I was about to jump off a cliff. Like I am going to make this giant leap I'm going to leave a really stable, predictable, reliable job and I'm going to do something that is very uncertain, where I have no idea if I'll be able to make enough money. I have certainly no idea if I'll be able to continue this career for five or ten years. And then as soon as I did it, I remember so clearly, like truly the week after I left the job where I was like, I'm no longer employed by the school anymore. I no longer felt in any way like I had jumped off a cliff. And instead I had this clear like alternate metaphor that I had turned a corner where it was like, oh, I could go back. It's like I turned and I could go back. I just couldn't see where I was going. And so because of that, it felt like this dramatic leap. And I think sometimes we make a career decision that is a true, like you've jumped off a cliff. But a lot of times it's not so true. The story we tell ourselves that like you could never go back to the job that you left or the field that you left. You know, like if you are a lawyer and you've gone to law school and you have your credentials and then you quit to become a novelist, it's not like you can't get another job as a lawyer later on. Like, that's actually not forbidden.
- [27:17]
Molly Graham
Yeah. Amazon has this idea of one way door and two way door decisions. Like it's one of their decision making frameworks. It's actually kind of helpful in life because the idea of a one way door is a decision you can't take back and the two way door is a decision you can take back, you know, and the point of the decision making framework is just like treat one very differently than the other, you know? You know, like if you try something and you fail at it in one form or another, often there is a safety net there in some form or another. I think it doesn't always feel that way, you know, like, I mean, particularly maybe these days. Like people are scared about whether jobs will exist and things like that. So it can feel extra scary to take a risk to quit and become a comedian. But I'm curious, like in your experience, what made you feel safe enough to take that risk? Because I do think there's different kinds of fear and there's like the fear I might fail and then there's like the much more existential fear of like, I'm not gonna be able to feed my family. So what do you think let you take that risk?
- [28:15]
Chris Duffy
Two very clear things. One was I did the math and I realized that what I was currently making, teaching improv and doing a few comedy shows, if I just kept that stable, and then my worst case scenario, if I kept that stable and then I worked half time as a barista, like, if I just got a job at a coffee shop and I was like, that's not what I want my other half of my time to be. But if I get half the time working at a coffee shop and then I'll still have more time to do comedy and creative stuff, and I just keep all my creative things the way they are now. Between those two things, I will be able to pay all of my bills. So I just did the math and was like, okay, that's the financial goal is just to, like, not, you know, not go into deep debt that I can't get out of. And the second one was I talked to the principal before I left and I said if I quit and try and pursue this, which they were very supportive of. Like, the other teachers liked coming to my shows and like, they, they saw potential in me, which was very.
- [29:09]
Molly Graham
I can only imagine what kind of teacher you were.
- [29:11]
Chris Duffy
You must not go to classroom management. Very fun, but very bad at discipline. That's the number one thing. But what they said is, I said, like, if I leave and it doesn't work out, can I come back? And she said some version of, you know, we can't guarantee anything, but we hire teachers every year and we like you, so I think you'll probably have a job here in the year after September if you don't. If you don't come back. So I felt like, okay, I'm making a one year decision, and I pretty sure that my worst case scenario is I just kind of am a dip a little into savings, but mostly just stay like neutral for a year. So that's. That's what it felt like.
- [29:44]
Molly Graham
Those are like, such great examples for two reasons. Like, one is I think financial fear is such a powerful force for people. It's one of the reasons, by the way, that I hate student debt. I think it's one of the greatest sort of like, risk quashers in the world. But, you know, I always say there's a difference between diffuse financial anxiety and specific financial anxiety. And I think a lot of people stay stuck in diffuse financial anxiety, meaning I'm scared I won't have enough money. But what you did is what creates specific financial anxiety. Basically, I know how much money I need every month to live the life that I feel good living if I have savings. Like, I know how much I'm willing to spend in order to be able to take this risk. That just changes it from, like, I'm scared I'm not going to be able to feed myself or my family or my catch, to, like, I have to be able to make this much every month. Like, what are different ways I could do that? Which is exactly what you did, you know, And I, Whenever I work with folks that are thinking about taking a risk or leaving a job or whatever, that is what I do. I'm like, let's sit down. Let's make a budget. Let's, like, get to a number, and then let's talk about what you have to believe to be true to take a risk on this number. Like, can you consult and get this much money a month? Like, the kinds of things. And often the number is just actually a lot smaller than people think it is. I mean, there's so many different kinds of risk in life. And I think if you can't take a big one, sometimes you can take a small one. But the big risk, sometimes people do feel very much like it's a. There isn't a safety net. And that can be really scary. I mean, I think one of the things that you have to learn if you want to push yourself to. To sort of be able to find your boundaries. And, and also I think your genius is like, fear does not mean you shouldn't do things. Yeah, you might fail, but what if you don't? What if you succeed? What if you're better than you think you are? What if this thing leads you to something that you can't imagine? And. And for me, that's. That's been the case where, you know, I've certainly failed a lot. But I've also found things that I, like, could not have possibly imagined where I was qualified for a job or I, you know, built a relationship with someone that if I hadn't taken the risk, I would never would have known.
- [31:52]
Chris Duffy
You know, I want to read something from your. Your newsletter, which I really loved, and I think it's a lot in line with what we've been talking about. 1. My basic belief is that happiness at work is fundamental to high performance. Yes, I have wonderful friends who perform incredibly well in misery and anxiety, but I don't believe it is healthy or sustainable for anyone to do that over a lifetime. In fact, I believe it takes years off of your life. I don't know that I'm right, but it's what I believe. And it's certainly how I manage my choices and what I optimize for. And two, it is really important to understand that making money has not been a primary motivator for me in my career, mostly because I'm very lucky. That absolutely changes the equation for how you decide what to do with your time and I think what work means. So my question for you is, how do we know when we're in one camp or the other? Is it actually just as simple as doing a spreadsheet? And then the second question is, if you want to be happy at work, Any work is going to involve periods where you're unhappy with the job or frustrated or feel like you're not good at it. So how do you know when you're happy at your job? How do you know when you found a job that will make you happy? So how do you know when you're financially stressed or you actually have the ability to make a choice? And how do you know when you're actually happy?
- [33:04]
Molly Graham
So I think, like, why do we work? The first answer is to have enough money to support ourselves and our family and to live a life that we want. And for a lot of people, that is the first and primary answer. There is, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like, I got to make sure I have food. And, you know, work is a huge piece of that for a lot of people. But I do think that I've just seen a lot of friends sort of blindly follow that motivator, right? Money. And I mean, the inverse is also true, which is that you can design a career where you're never gonna make money. I mean, you're an artist on some level, and you've seen a lot of friends, I'm sure, struggle with the relationship between what they feel like they've been put on earth to do and what they can make money doing. So I always say that the. The true sort of, like, version of your craft is, like, the things that you love doing, the things that you're great at, and then the things people will pay you a bunch of money to do, you know, that's the happiest Venn diagram in the world. But I think that money is a real factor. And until you feel financially taken care of or financially speaking, safe, money can often be the sort of big red light, you know, that's stopping you from taking risks and things like that. The trap for me is I've really watched a lot of people and friends let that guide every decision without asking questions, right? Without questioning their own happiness. Relative to money. And I think we're each programmed differently. We come from different families, we come from different parents. And you know, I have a ton of friends that are the kids of first generation immigrants or the first generation immigrants themselves. And I always ask that question when I'm talking to someone about this stuff because I think if your parents like moved across the world to take care of you and you know, often they taught you that like you just gotta earn money, like you gotta like be on this treadmill for, you know, and that that is the purpose of work and no one cares about how you feel. And that programming can be very hard to shed. You know, like how, when will you feel safe? Is there a world in which you'll ever feel safe? You gotta have an answer to what enough is and when you'll feel safe enough to take a risk or to demand happiness. You know, to demand that you should love at least most of your work. Because like work is a lot of time, like if you let it go by, it's your whole life. If you literally do the math, like it's most of the hours in your life for most of us. And to do that and be miserable or anxious or you know, all those feelings, like for most of your life, like, how can it not affect your health? Like we now have so much data that says that it does. And I think that question of safety and what's going to make you feel safe, like that's wildly different for everyone. Like, I don't, that's not a prescriptive thing. That's not like, oh, you hit this net worth and everyone feels safe. Like, no, it's like you hit this dollar amount per month and some people are like, I still don't feel safe. But I think you have to tackle that question at some point because otherwise you can spend a lot of your life really unhappy. I, the one thing I would say about happiness is that like, yeah, everyone's miserable at some point at work. Like, but I have this strongly held belief which, which you know, is not mine. It's anybody that works in sort of the strengths based work or the sense of like that you are at your best when you're doing the things that you're sort of uniquely great at and that, that give you energy, that that's the, the highest and best use of you in the world. When I do work with people to ask them to like kind of think about how they want to shape their future or what they might want to invest more time in or explore next, a lot of What I'm doing is looking back over what they've done and asking, like, when did you feel, like, sort of most alive? When did you feel most energized? When did you feel like the time flew by? When did you feel like, you know, I could do this forever? Those are the signals to pay attention to, to think about, like, what is the kind of work that really can bring you joy? I like to say that my goal is that I'm happy 90% of the time at work. And, like, I. I do that today. I'm so lucky, and I feel, like, so grateful because that was not true for a long time.
- [37:19]
Chris Duffy
I think also expanding the. The timeframe you look at it on, right? Like, if your goal is that I'm going to be happy every minute and that if I have an unhappy hour, that means, like, something has gone horribly wrong at work versus if it's like, okay, like, you may have a really rough month, and that actually doesn't mean that your career or your job needs to get completely tossed out. But is it, like, struggle where you're learning something, where you're growing, or is it struggle where you're getting, like, abused and beaten down and dismissed? Like, those are really different versions of a bad month.
- [37:48]
Molly Graham
Yeah. There's such a difference between being deeply uncomfortable and very stretched and being miserable. I burnt out at Facebook. I, you know, after a very intense five years, I, like, really had physical symptoms of could not keep going. And I remember this woman who worked in HR at the time, she said to me, you know, everybody has peaks and valleys at work. Like, there's no such thing as, like, everybody being, like, happy all the time. And she was like, so you're happy some of the time and you're less happy some of the time, but the goal is obviously, like, more peaks than valleys, and also that the valleys aren't super long. And she looked at me and she goes, your valleys are getting longer and closer together. You know, which. Which I think about a lot because it's like, you know, that's measurable. I had a coach when I was sort of struggling with a job who said, you know, at the end of the day, I want you to go through every single meeting that you've sat in and rated on a scale of 1 to 10 and do it for a week. And it was, like, eye opening because I had tens and ones, you know, sitting right next to each other. And it mostly taught me a lot about the kind of things that do bring me energy. But there's a lot of Exercises you can do to kind of really ask yourself, like, what, are you uncomfortable? Are you miserable? How much, like, what is bringing you joy? Can you do more of that? Like, that's. That's something you can micro optimize as much as, like, needing to quit a job and go do a whole other thing.
- [39:04]
Chris Duffy
You just recently started this new role as hosting the Work Life podcast. How did you think about whether to do it or not? And what were you worried about or what were you excited about?
- [39:17]
Molly Graham
So I got asked to take over this podcast, and it's obviously just such an amazing podcast that's been, you know, Adam Grant has built over the last seven years with ted, and a lot of people listened to it, and when they first called me, they sort of said, you know, have you thought about podcasting? And I was like, yes, and do we need more podcasts in the world?
- [39:39]
Chris Duffy
And they were like, great news. This is conservation of podcasts. A podcast will neither be created nor destroyed. It will simply move from one form to another like water to vapor.
- [39:50]
Molly Graham
And then they explained what they were curious if I was interested in. And I tell you, Chris Steffi, I said yes on that call, like, five minutes after it. And I'll tell you why. Because they offered it to me. And my first reaction was, holy. I have no idea if I can do that. And I think I'm like, I'm terrified. And I'm like, why are you offering this to me? And I'd never done audio. I mean, I've been on other people's podcasts, but I've never done audio. I've never done video. I don't know anything about this world. Like, I don't know how. So anyway, spiral. But, you know, immediately for me, all of those signs are like, you have to do this because you're scared and you don't know if you can do it. And what an incredible learning opportunity. And I had to. You know, when I took a step back from that first call and sort of had a chat with myself, it was like, okay, if we're going to do this, like, our bar cannot be Adam Grant or Amy Poehler or Chris Duffy. Like, I.
- [40:52]
Chris Duffy
Well, one of the. It can be one of those three. Let's be real.
- [40:56]
Molly Graham
No, I mean, you know, there has to be a different way of measuring success for myself. And so I made an agreement with myself that I was gonna measure success on two things. The first was that I was gonna learn so much, right? That by the end of, you know, even one year of doing this podcast, that I was gonna be a different person. I was gonna know so many things that I hadn't known before, including all the things that I screwed up. And then the second thing was that I was gonna make some stuff that I was proud of and that I wanted to be out in the world, that I was gonna put content into the world that I just knew could help one person. Right. And. And that's actually how I thought about my TED Talk, too. Because, I mean, you know, this, like, TED is kind of a terrifying experience as well. And there's a very, like, visible, like, number next to your talk and all these things. And I think if you get caught in that game, which is the external validation game, right? Like, you know how many people have watched this thing. It's not how I measure value. And I really, you know, when I do stuff like this, that's terrifying. And it's so easy to get swept up in these sort of, like, external signals of success. I have to say no. What matters to me is that I get one email from someone that says, thank you so much. This made such a huge difference in my life. And so that's all that matters to, you know, that's my definite. As I go on this, like, absolutely terrifying journey that I'm like, let's go watch Molly make public mistakes. And a lot of people be potentially frustrated that I'm not Adam Grant. Like, I want to make stuff that I'm like, no matter what, I'm glad it exists.
- [42:31]
Chris Duffy
I love the. The concept of, like, defining success and not just every possible form, because it really does get out of hand. I mean, I. I've had this so many times where it's like, if I ahead of time, think, what do I actually care about? What do I care about on this project? It's much easier to then go in to a job or a project or anything that I'm doing and say, like, okay, this is what I'm aiming for, and it's nice if the other stuff happens. It's not like I don't like the other stuff, but. But my goal is this one thing.
- [42:57]
Molly Graham
Yeah, well, and it's to the original. You know, the thing I said a little bit ago about the doors, like, it's actually pretty easy to feel like a failure. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you look in the world and you're like, there's a million definitions of success that you know are unachievable or at least, like, gonna make you feel like you haven't done anything, and that can be subscriber counts that can be view counts, that can be such and such awards that can be so and so's getting all these jobs and getting these offers that I'm not getting. Like, spend a lot of time being like, I'm not that person, therefore I have failed. I optimized for that stuff. And then I found myself in a place where I was like, oh, I'm miserable. Like, I don't like this. Like, I have. I have fought for other people's goals or other people's definitions of success, and I have discovered that land and it is not for me. And so, like, I think as I embark on, you know, taking on work life and just a project like this, like, I think I have to have a compass that works for me and, and I have to know what is good enough for me because otherwise I'll drown in like, all the comparison and all the sort of things I'm not. And that's just not a good use of like, my time or energy.
- [44:10]
Chris Duffy
I feel like the title of this episode is something like how to chart a career path or how to chart a career path that you actually find meaningful. You have a great essay about early career advice. Is it possible for me to just have you read some of that essay right now?
- [44:25]
Molly Graham
All right. I've never been one of those people who knew what I wanted to do for work. You know those people, the ones who've known they wanted to be a doctor since they were 14. In college, my best friend knew she wanted to become a paper conservationist. That's not someone that recycles paper. It's someone that restores and maintains old documents. And that's what she is today. Cut to me, who majored in African history in college but ended up in tech. And my first job out of school was leading wilderness trips in Patagonia and Alaska. My parents were very unsure that that was a real job. There's some cultural programming and family programming telling you that as a 20 year old, you should know what you want to do. I know I felt that way and I see it in my younger friends as they head off to college. But over my 20 years since college, I've become a big believer in the winding path as a powerful way to figure out the highest and best value you can bring to the world. I want to make the case that not knowing is not only okay, but that it can actually be a strength if you're willing to lean into it and use the first part of your career to learn about yourself. It's a different and I Think better way to do your 20s, figure it out mode. Eventually, you want to find the jobs and situations where it's full of the stuff you are great at, the stuff you love doing. And also, the world highly values what you have to offer to start that winding path. You have to use your 20s to collect data about yourself. That means you get to those bigger answers by 30 or 35, not by 25. To be honest, I'm a general believer that some amount of exploration is good for anyone, even those of you that are like my college best friend and feel sure of what you want to do. I'm thinking of the friends who made it all the way through medical school and got to residency only to realize they didn't want to be doctors.
- [46:11]
Chris Duffy
You're incredible at reading things out loud. Great voice.
- [46:14]
Molly Graham
That is not true. Just ask my producer on Work Life.
- [46:17]
Chris Duffy
Okay, well, I'm impressed. That idea that we shouldn't necessarily know exactly where we want to be and that even if we do know exactly where we want to be, we should still embrace the potential to explore and to discover new things about us. I find that so relevant to how I think about my own life and to the people whose careers I admire most. And honestly, I would say, like, not just till you're 35. I'm past 35, and I. I still feel like that's the way I should keep going.
- [46:43]
Molly Graham
The feeling that you're supposed to know is the thing that can lead you to spend 10 years trying to be something that you're not, right? Trying to be something that actually makes you miserable. The doctor, the lawyer, the whatever. You know, it doesn't have to be one of the traditional careers, but it's some programming or some college course or some parent or professor or whatever told you that this is what good looks like. This is what success means. And you just followed that blindly. Like it was an A, right? Like it was the great, the A grade. And at some point you wake up and you're like, and God help you if you've, like, spent $500,000 on medical school, right? And you're like, oh, I don't want to be a doctor. Like, those can be very expensive decisions, both in terms of money and in terms of time. So it's why I'm such an advocate and why I said to my younger cousin, like, go figure it out. Like, go be a farmer. Like, really, what I learned in my 20s was, like, who I am and what I'm good at and what I like doing and what I don't like, doing. And as you said, like, I followed that for a while and, you know, somewhere around, I think, like, 38 or 39, I hit another wall where I was like, oh, shit, this thing that I am, like, literally the best in the world at that. People, you know, everyone knows me for that. You know, I'm the CEO that runs other people's companies. You have a visionary CEO, Go hire Molly. She'll help you bring your vision to life. Turns out I hate doing that now. Like, I was really. I really liked it for a while, and I really don't like it anymore. And that's. That's terrifying. But the beautiful thing is, in theory, I have the skills to figure it out, right? Because I built them in my 20s doesn't make it not scary. And, you know, I felt lost for the last. A lot of the last, like, three to five years. But it was something I knew I needed to do, right? Because I. I believe that I should be happy most days of work, and I believe that I should listen to those voices that are like, like, let the time to try something new.
- [48:33]
Chris Duffy
Well, Molly Graham, thank you so much for being on the show. It's truly been such a pleasure talking with you.
- [48:38]
Molly Graham
I know, same. Thank you for having me, Chris. This was so fun and I'm excited to keep learning from you.
- [48:43]
Chris Duffy
Oh, same right here. Right back at you. That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Molly Graham. You can listen to her on Ted's Work Life Podcast or read her thoughts at mollyg.substack.com I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new nonfiction book Humor Me is out now. You can find out more about my live show dates and other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a team that works so well together, they should host their own work advice show. On the TED side, anytime two TED hosts are in a room together, it means a producer got its wings. This week, newly flying are Daniela Belarazzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Zacha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lotto, Antonio Le and Joseph De Bruyne. This video was put together by the angelic Ryan Lash and this episode was fact checked by Mattea Salas, whose work and life are both highly accurate. On the PRX side, they sound professional and they look business casual. Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. Please send this episode to anyone who helps you think through your career and your work life. We will be back next week with even more help to be a better human. Until then, take care.
- [50:01]
Molly Graham
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Chris Duffy
I'll send you text America's best Network based on RootMetric's best overall mobile network
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Chris Duffy
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Molly Graham
See verizon.com for details.
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Chris Duffy
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