What motivates great Americans with Ron Chernow

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Worklife with Adam Grant" - Episode: What Motivates Great Americans with Ron Chernow

Release Date: July 8, 2025

In this enlightening episode of Worklife with Adam Grant, host Adam engages in a deep conversation with acclaimed biographer Ron Chernow. Produced in partnership with Transmitter Media, the episode delves into the intricate process of biographical writing, uncovering the motivations and personalities of some of America’s most influential figures.

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1. Introduction to Ron Chernow and His Biographical Approach

Ron Chernow is celebrated as one of the foremost biographers of his time, having penned comprehensive biographies of pivotal American figures such as George Washington, Ulysses S. Grant, John D. Rockefeller, Alexander Hamilton, and Mark Twain. Adam Grant introduces Chernow, highlighting his meticulous research and narrative skills that bring historical characters to life.

Notable Quote:

“This episode is sponsored by gab...” [00:31] (Note: Initial sponsor message is skipped as per instructions.)

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2. Selecting Subjects for Biography

Chernow emphasizes that the selection of a biographical subject is akin to choosing a life partner—“the single most important choice” [04:24]. He seeks individuals who have “created the building blocks of American culture” and often adopts a contrarian approach, revisiting well-known figures to uncover overlooked aspects. This method stems from his belief that “history is an argument without an end” [05:21], necessitating continuous exploration and reinterpretation.

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3. Immersive Research Methodology

Chernow describes his intensive research process, which involves "immersing" himself in thousands of letters and diary entries. He organizes his findings meticulously on 25,000 index cards [06:33], enabling him to piece together a coherent narrative. This method allows him to “psychologically project himself into the mind” of his subjects, akin to an actor embodying a character.

Notable Quote:

“Even when we're trying to hide, we reveal ourselves in the methods by which we try to hide.” [07:20]

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4. Common Patterns Among Chernow’s Subjects: The Influence of Paternal Relationships

A recurring theme in Chernow’s biographies is the challenging relationship with paternal figures [11:16]. He observes that many of his male subjects experienced “difficult and distant” fathers, leading to traits such as precocity, toughness, and becoming “the father of the house” from a young age. For instance:

• John D. Rockefeller: Edited his father out of existence.
• Mark Twain: Maintained an “armed neutrality” with his father.
• Ulysses S. Grant: Faced a pushy and domineering father.

This “consistent strain” suggests that overcoming early familial adversity may have shaped their resilience and leadership qualities.

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5. Leadership Qualities: Clarity of Vision and Communication

Chernow identifies clarity of vision and single-minded purpose as key leadership qualities shared by his subjects [14:42]. These leaders possess the ability to focus intensely on their goals and effectively communicate their vision to inspire and mobilize others. He underscores that “courage is contagious and fear is no less contagious” [15:35], highlighting the pivotal role of emotional influence in leadership.

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6. Deep Dive into Mark Twain: Complexity of a Literary Genius

The conversation shifts to Mark Twain, where Chernow explores the multifaceted personality of this literary icon. Despite Twain’s public persona as a humorous and witty figure, Chernow reveals an underlying melancholy and volatile personality [23:38]. Twain’s life was marked by business failures, personal struggles, and a constant battle with insomnia [37:15].

Notable Insights:

• Twain's humor was a mechanism to cope with depression [23:38].
• Despite his claim of laziness, Twain was extraordinarily productive, leaving behind 9,000 letters and numerous manuscripts [24:35].
• His relationship with Ulysses S. Grant was profound, with Twain describing Grant as “the kindest and sweetest man” [32:29].

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7. Ulysses S. Grant Through Twain’s Eyes

Chernow and Grant discuss the unique friendship between Mark Twain and Ulysses S. Grant. Twain admired Grant deeply, referring to him as “the greatest person he ever knew” [32:29]. This relationship offers a nuanced perspective on Grant, countering the historical stereotype of him as a mere “butcher” of war.

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8. Psychological Analysis of Mark Twain

Drawing from his psychological background, Ron Chernow speculates on Twain’s mental health, suggesting traits consistent with manic depression [40:09]. He notes Twain’s extreme emotional cycles and the duality of his public charm and private struggles. Chernow refrains from assigning a definitive diagnosis but acknowledges Twain’s “inflated but fragile ego” and persistent insecurities [40:39].

Notable Quote:

“Good breeding consists in hiding how little we think of other people and how much we think of ourselves.” [41:03]

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9. Lessons and Conclusions: The Complexity of Greatness

The episode concludes with reflections on the limitations and blind spots of even the most brilliant individuals. Chernow highlights Twain’s “tragic blindness” that led to personal and professional missteps [42:56]. This serves as a cautionary tale about the importance of self-awareness and emotional intelligence in personal success and leadership.

Final Thoughts: Chernow emphasizes the value of biographies in providing insight and empathy for historical figures, revealing that “people are full of contradictions” [43:39]. This comprehensive understanding fosters a deeper appreciation of their contributions and human flaws.

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Key Takeaways:

• The biographical process is both an art and a science, requiring extensive research and empathetic understanding.
• Leadership is often defined by a clear vision and the ability to communicate effectively.
• Personal adversities, such as challenging paternal relationships, can significantly shape an individual's character and success.
• Historical figures like Mark Twain and Ulysses S. Grant exhibit complex, multifaceted personalities that defy simplistic categorizations.
• Psychological insights reveal how personal struggles and traits contribute to both the achievements and failures of great individuals.

This episode offers a profound exploration into the motivations and personalities of America’s luminaries, providing listeners with a rich tapestry of historical and psychological insights.

Transcript

[Elise Hu]

Hi TED podcast listeners. It's Elise Hu here from TED Talks Daily.

[Adam Grant]

Thanks for making our podcast part of your routine. We really appreciate it and we want to make your favorite TED podcasts even better.

[Ron Chernow]

We put together a quick survey and.

[Elise Hu]

We'D love to hear from you. It only takes a few minutes, but it helps us shape our shows and get to know you, our listeners, way better. Head to the episode description to find the link.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you again for listening and for taking the time to help our shows.

[Ron Chernow]

This episode is sponsored by gab. We know that social media plays a role in today's youth mental health crisis. Teens now spend an average of 9 hours a day on screens outside of school. That's essentially a full time job. But there's good news. There's a company called Gab that's tackling the problem by doing something different. They're introducing tech in steps. Gab's Kid Safe phones and watches are designed specifically for growing kids, starting with GPS enabled watches for younger children and evolving into phones with more features for tweens and teens, all with strong parental controls. Bottom line, you don't have to hand your kid a device made for an adult. Give them gab so they can stay connected safely. Visit gab.com worklife and use code worklife for a special offer. That's gabb.com worklife this episode is sponsored by Greenhouse, the leading hiring platform helping companies get measurably better at hiring. In today's world of work, time is precious and talent is everything. But too often, hiring gets bogged down in administrative tasks that slow teams down. That's where Greenhouse AI comes in. Greenhouse AI automates the tedious parts of the hiring process so recruiters and hiring managers can spend more time doing what they do best, finding the right people for the right roles. With Greenhouse, you can pinpoint and engage top talent with precision. Streamline interviews using AI tools that handle the busy work and make faster, more confident hiring decisions. In a competitive talent landscape, having the right tech isn't just helpful, it's essential for building teams that thrive. Book your demo today to learn more about Greenhouse [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Earth Animal. Most of us want to make better choices for ourselves, our families, and the planet. Earth Animal is bringing that same mindset to pet care with a simple Our pets deserve products made with the same care and quality we'd want for ourselves. That philosophy led to Earth Animal no Hide Chews, a rawhide free alternative made with simple, wholesome ingredients. They're long lasting Easily digestible and made in the USA by a certified B corporation. It's a small switch, but but one that shows a lot about how we care. Visit earthanimal.com and use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. Always supervise chewing. Terms and conditions apply.

[Elise Hu]

Whenever I speak to would be biographers, I always say to them that the choice of subject is a little like marriage. If you pick the right person, nothing can go wrong. If you pick the wrong person, nothing can go right.

[Ron Chernow]

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is biographer extraordinaire Ron Chernow. He's an expert on the craft of illuminating the lives of towering figures.

[Elise Hu]

It's the most exciting job in the world because you start out with thousands of pieces of evidence and then gradually, almost like in the old fashioned photographic development, you see the image starting to emerge. And that's where I think, you know, biography becomes as much art as science.

[Ron Chernow]

Ron's work has deepened our understanding of the men who made history in America. He's won the Pulitzer Prize in biography for his book on George Washington. And he's written meticulously research bestsellers about Ulysses S. Granted, John D. Rockefeller, Alexander Hamilton, and now Mark Twain. You are one of the great biographers of our time. How do you decide who you write about? And is the goal to inspire another Lin Manuel Miranda musical part of the process?

[Elise Hu]

Well, I think we can safely say that none of my books is going to inspire another Lin Manuel Miranda musical. No, actually, the choice of subject, as a biographer, that's the single most important choice that I make. So much flows from that decision. And so what I've looked for is not simply people who had colorful or fascinating lives. I've looked for people who really created the building blocks of American culture. And I think also I have something of a contrarian streak. What happens in history is that a consensus forms around someone's image. And if I feel that that consensus somehow is missing something, that to me is very, very tempting to wade in and take another look at this figure. Arthur Schlesinger once said, history is an argument without an end. And so there's always need for another biography, another take on these major historical figures.

[Ron Chernow]

That's fascinating. So where do you get the sense that something might be missing or wrong?

[Elise Hu]

Well, you know, in the case of Alexander Hamilton, for instance. Almost all of the books up until the show portrayed Jefferson was this saintly figure and Hamilton was this, you know, villainous character. And yet the more I read about him, not only was it far and away the most dramatic, personal story of any of the Founders, but his accomplishments were really second to none. So that was a good example. And it was interesting, Adam, because when I decided to do the Hamilton book, all the average person knew about Hamilton was that he was on the $10 bill and he'd been shot by a guy named Aaron Burr, and he had become the least known of the Founders. He was fading into historical obscurity. And so it's been delightful. Between the book and the show, he's become everyone's favorite Founders. That was not the case when I decided in 1998 to write that biography.

[Ron Chernow]

One of the things I'm really curious about in terms of how you work is as a psychologist, I find it hard enough to get to know a living person. How in the world do you get inside the mind of someone who's no longer alive?

[Elise Hu]

Well, I'm basically a documents person. And so with all of the people that I've written about, there were thousands upon thousands of letters and diary entries. And I immerse myself into this. To give you some idea, this may sound masochistic. When I describe my working methods, I put everything on 4 by 6 index cards, and by the time I sit down to write, I have approximately 25,000 cards, which then I arrange in these index card boxes, actually work out the flow and the narrative. There's a certain kind of. What do the Germans called it? Fingerspitzen? Gefreuhl, you know, fingertip feel for it, that you have to, almost like an actor, be psychologically projecting yourself into the mind to get inside the skin of this person.

[Ron Chernow]

In a sense, you're doing this like a true scientist would, which is, instead of starting with a hypothesis and then looking for facts to confirm it, you're actually collecting all the facts and then forming and reforming hypotheses.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And I think very, very important is just to completely open yourself up to the experience of what you're finding. I'll tell you an experience that had a profound impact on me when I was doing my biography of John D. Rockefeller. It was the first biography of Rockefeller where the author had access to Rockefell Rockefeller's Standard Oil correspondence. And I was going up every week I would spend two or three days at the Rockefeller Archive center north of New York. And I imagined when I started going through Rockefeller's papers that it was going to be full of startling revelations. Instead, every letter that he wrote was about two or three lines long. A typical letter would be, dear sir, received. Yours of the 27th would proceed with all due caution. Sign John D. Rockefeller. And there were thousands, there were tens of thousands of these very brief and completely mysterious little letters. Well, I remember I came home from one of these trips and I was having dinner with my wife and I was saying, this book is going to be a full blown disaster. She said, why? I said, because these papers are not yielding anything. This man, he was running the biggest business operation in the world. This man has trained himself to write every single letter and is if it might someday fall into the hands of an investigative committee or a prosecutor or a district attorney. He was running this vast, the biggest business enterprise in the world. And he was running it through all of these winks and nods. And I'm getting angry and angry as I'm telling my wife and she's, her smile is getting broader and broader. I said, why are you smiling? This is a disaster in the making. And she said to me, she said, what you're describing is absolutely fascinating. She said, you're kind of trying to go behind this man to discover these things, but the story is staring you in the face. What it taught me at was that even when we're trying to hide, we reveal ourselves in the methods by which we try to hide. And there was actually nothing that taught me more about his personality than this fact that he had trained himself to write all these letters without using a proper name. So that was a wonderful lesson for me in terms of follow the story where it leads, and it may lead you in a much more interesting place than the one that you had originally expected to go.

[Ron Chernow]

It's such a great insight and it tracks for me with one of the most powerful lessons that I've learned in psychology, which is people will often say, why would you trust what people say about themselves? Of course they're motivated, they're trying to create an image. I'm like, yes, I want to learn how they want to be seen. And that teaches me something about who they are.

[Elise Hu]

One thing that's interesting, I think interests you, with your background in psychology, is that I find with all of my books I've tried to create a coherent picture, but that coherent picture is made up of very heterogeneous elements. And it may seem counterintuitive, but this is the way that we know people because, you know, we have friends or Family members, colleagues. We've seen them in a lot of different moods, in a lot of different situations. We're hearing rumors about them. And gossip also may, you know, contradict what we think we know. But somehow our mind is able to process all of these disparate elements into a portrait that works. And people are inherently contradictory. We understand that. You know, we know that. And so readers, instead of being thrown by that, actually find it more convincing because everyone they know is as contradictory and confused as the person you're writing about. Goes with the territory.

[Ron Chernow]

That's a relief in some ways, to know that even after pouring out 700 pages about a person, you still feel the contradictions.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And also, what happens as a biographer? You're peeling away layer after layer after layer. I would always say to people, I knew more about George Washington than Martha did, you know, I knew more about Hamilton than Eliza did, et cetera. But after you've peeled away all the letters, you never get to the bottom of it. Even someone as chatty and verbal as Alexander Hamilton or Mark Twain, for that matter. There's always a secret corner to the life and, of course, the silences. It's not what they're, you know, they want to tell you. It's what they're trying very hard not to tell you about. You know, you don't have the luxury as a biographer of putting your subject on the analytic couch. I mean, for instance, one thing that I found interesting, all the books that I've written about, in terms of a surprising consistency, is that all my subjects have been men. All of them had fathers who were difficult and distant and domineering the 3Ds. And so that was something that surprised me when I saw that trend. And in all of those cases, almost without exception, they never talked about their fathers. The father was a figure of fear and hatred. In fact, John D. Rockefeller, when he became the richest world in the man and his father was money mad, must have driven his father crazy. Rockefeller pretended that his father was dead. When the reporters asked me. I mean, he literally edited his father out of existence. Mark Twain, can't get a chattier figure than that. Had this very cold, distant father. And he left two comments on his relationship with his father. One, our relationship amounted to little more than an introduction. And the other comment was we existed in a state of armed neutrality. You know, if he suddenly came back, I think that would be the first thing that I would want to ask him about, because the shadow of the absent father is always there. Washington's father died at 11. Poor Grant had this very pushy, domineering father who was always pushing him forward against his will. But I think that what happens is I started thinking about this consistent strain in my book was that by having to protect yourself or push back against a dominant father, I think you become maybe more precocious, you become tougher. In a number of the cases, you know, the teenage son became the father of the house. So they're kind of precocious in that way. But it's an interesting parallel, isn't it? It surprised me when I saw is.

[Ron Chernow]

Interesting and it's obviously not what I would recommend if you want to raise a high achieving child. But there is something to be said for that kind of adversity. But just as we're thinking about this compare and contrast exercise, you know, when you think about Washington to Hamilton to Grant to Rockefeller to Morgan, are there other commonalities or differences that have really stuck with you as you've studied them?

[Elise Hu]

It's a good question. I mean, one thing that I've learned is that there are certain figures in history, some of whom I've written about, where you feel from the beginning they're built for success. They have a drive and a discipline, a focus, maybe a brilliance. And I think that one quality that I see in common is there was a clarity of vision. There was a single mindedness of purpose, of an ability to focus on a goal and then harness all of their energy to achieve that goal. And not only to have that clarity of vision, but to be able to communicate that to the people around them. And it's been interesting because I know we both have been interested in leadership. And one thing that I've seen again and again is that in terms of leaders, courage is contagious and fear is no less contagious.

[Ron Chernow]

Well, this is personally interesting in part because I have a vested interest in the life of anyone named Grant because people assume we're related. I did joke before our son was born that I was gonna name him.

[Elise Hu]

Ulysses, which it's a good thing you did.

[Ron Chernow]

Yeah, my wife was not enthusiastic about that at all. But your commentary about his vision I think helps to explain a little bit why he wasn't that much of a standout as a cadet, but, you know, became a great commander because he seemed to be a better leader than a doer. If that's the case, why was he such a mediocre president? We think that the skills of a great military commander would also lend themselves to being successful in the White House.

[Elise Hu]

Grant in the Civil War he perfectly meshes with his historical moment. There's a desperate need for generals. He's been in West Point, he's been in the Mexican War. He's trained all of these people. So he meshes perfectly with his moment. He meshes very imperfectly with his historical moment. When it comes to his presidency, what.

[Ron Chernow]

Do you think prevented him from being a greater president or a great one?

[Elise Hu]

Well, Grant was very naive. He was very innocent. Mark Twain said that he was the most lovable great child in the world. And he's the only person that I've written about whom I would describe as naive in certain ways. I can't. It's one of those things that I was never able to fully figure out because when it came to his evaluating, you know, other generals and officers in the Civil War, he was extremely shrewd and insightful. He knew them, he knew their history. And yet when he got into the. Into the White House, I guess that it was an environment that was unknown or alien to him and he seemed to be completely blind. But I have to say, you know, I think partly because of my book and partly because other other books written on Grant, he keeps rising now in polls of historians, you know, he was last, I think it was up to around number 22. He used to be in the bottom three with maybe Warren Harding. It's an ongoing conversation that we have with history and it's very kind of nice. And people pick up a biography and they open themselves up to the possibility of seeing this person in different terms.

[Ron Chernow]

This episode is sponsored by Udemy. If you've ever felt like the pace of change at work is outpacing your skills, you're not alone. In today's world, capabilities matter more than credentials. And staying competitive means constantly evolving. That's where Udemy comes in. Udemy is an AI powered reskilling platform designed for the modern workforce. Whether you're trying to level up in your current role or lead a team that's adapting to change, Udemy can help give you the skills to confidently take control of your career. Udemy helps you build real world skills that make a difference from AI and data science to communication and leadership. One of the themes we revisit on this show is how people thrive at work. Insight isn't enough. You need tools to act on it. It's practical, it's flexible, and it's built around your goals. Visit udemy.com that's u d e m-y.com to explore plans for people and businesses and subscribe free for 7 days. This episode is sponsored by Factor. Summer is here. More sunlight, more energy, and hopefully more time for what matters. What shouldn't be on your summer to do list? Spending hours cooking indoors. That's where Factor comes in. Factor delivers fresh, never frozen, ready to eat meals right to your door. Chef crafted and dietitian approved, they're ready in just two minutes. No cooking, no cleanup, no friction. With 45 weekly menu options from calorie smart to protein plus, you can stay aligned with your goals without compromising on taste. And it's not just dinner. Factor powers your whole day with nutritious breakfasts on the go, lunches, and even guilt free desserts and snacks. If I were trying to reclaim my time and still eat well, Factor is exactly the kind of solution I'd use. It's designed for busy people who still want to eat smart. Get started at FactorMeals.com worklife50off and use code worklife50off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. Factor meals.com worklife50off for 50% off plus free shipping this episode is sponsored by Wild Alaskan Company in a world where so many decisions feel like trade offs, here's one that doesn't. Choosing seafood that's both delicious and sustainably sourced, Wild Alaskan Company delivers wild caught seafood straight to your door. That means no antibiotics, no GMOs, just nutrient rich clean fish like coho salmon, Pacific halibut and Pacific rockfish. What sets them apart is their commitment to responsible harvesting. Every box supports healthy oceans and fishing communities. So you're not just getting a better dinner, you're making a better decision. And they make it easy. Flexible delivery, expert cooking tips, and 100% money back guarantee. If you're not completely satisfied with your first box, no risk, just real high quality seafood. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com worklife for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskin.com worklife for $35 OFF your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. Let's let's talk about opening ourselves up to a different view of Samuel Clemens or Mark Twain. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you chose him. And based on your earlier comment, what did you have a hunch that we've gotten wrong about him?

[Elise Hu]

I said that I chose people who've created building blocks, you know, of American society. And I think that in terms of our culture, he was absolutely indispensable he wrote about people in the heartland. Here was this kind of, you know, wild, throbbing energy in small towns and rural areas across the country. He wrote about ordinary people. He wrote using the vernacular of those people. Twain once said that he didn't write for the cultivated classes. They could go to theater and opera. He wrote for the masses. And one of my favorite Twain lines is he said that fine literature is like wine. My writing is like water, but everyone drinks water, you know. So I think that he infused this new democratic spirit into American letters. Whereas, you know, American fiction had been very much dominated by kind of, you know, Eastern seaboard elites up until that time. And so he opens up, you know, a vast continent. But I think so people are very, very surprised, as I was that he spent 11 years of his life outside the United States. You know, he was the most worldly and well traveled American writer by far.

[Ron Chernow]

Well, I think it might be fair to say that you never really understand a place until you've stepped outside of it and seen it from a distance.

[Elise Hu]

One of many, many surprises about Mark Twain was that even though he immortalized this town and immortalized his boyhood, he almost never went back. It was as if he wanted to preserve all those memories in amber. I think that his nostalgia was less for place than for his own boyhood. And it was such a happy boyhood almost ruined his life. He was asked in later years if he would like to live his life over again. He said, I would like to relive my youth and then drown myself. You know, like adult life was a disappointment after this. These boyhood adventures that nothing could ever quite match.

[Ron Chernow]

Oh, that's brutal. Given how accomplished he was as an adult. And what an interesting.

[Elise Hu]

It's funny. I think that Mark Twain in many ways fits the stereotype of the funny man where there's an underlying sadness. In fact, we have this image of the man in the white suit smoking cigars, dispensing witticisms. But he was a very volatile personality. There was a lot of melancholy under the surface. He didn't say life was comedy. He said life was a tragedy with comedy distributed here and there in order to heighten the pain and magnify it. By contrast, it's quite a statement. But I think that he was a case, kind of a classic case, of someone of kind of a depressive personality who was constantly relieving that stress and anxiety through humor. And the humor is always there right until the end of his life. He's somebody who had a quip for every occasion. For everything that happened.

[Ron Chernow]

Well, that goes to one of the things I was wondering about, which is, after doing a careful study of Twain's life, what do you think are the qualities that most propelled his success?

[Elise Hu]

That's a good question, because it's an almost sort of manic creativity that is pouring out of him. You know, he was very, very lucky that we know him as a writer, but he's first a printer, then he's a steamboat pilot, then he's a miner, then he's a journalist, then he's a novelist, then he's a lecturer, then he's an investor, then he's an inventor and kind of goes on and on. And I think that he had this need to kind of transmute all of this experience into fiction and story. You know, he's a tough nut to figure out, but one of the things motivating him was that he loved what he called notoriety and notice. And I think his unbelievable facility with words and language and storytelling was one way that he drew the attention of the world. But you know, the other figures that I've written about in history, there was this kind of clarity of vision and there was this single minded pursuit of a goal that's not Mark Twain at all. In fact, I did speak to a friend who is a psychologist and I was describing Mark Twain. She said, oh, attention deficit disorder. He was disorganized. He himself said that he would go to these volcanic extremes. He would go from mood to mood. And I've made a point of never in the books using modern psychiatric language. 1 I feel uncomfortable analyzing people in that way at a distance. And also I think that our categories fit us. They may not fit, you know, a Victorian man, but I think that there was some truth to that because everyone particularly who saw him in his early years said that, you know, his room would have papers everywhere and cigar butts and, you know, pipes and ashes. He just would kind of live in the midst of this chaos. He always said that he was very, very lazy and, and yet he left behind 9,000 letters, you know, 50 notebooks, hundreds of unpublished manuscripts. People just know him from Tom or Huck or Life on the Mississippi. You know, he published two dozen books, somewhere between a thousand and two thousand magazine articles, gave thousands of lectures, gave thousands of interviews. It was really kind of an embarrassment of Rich's story from this man who claimed that he was lazy, but he had this mind that was kind of a hive, you know, like a buzzing bees buzzing with these words and stories and images. He did have a lot of trouble with insomnia. I think it was very, very difficult for him to. His problem was, he said in order to write, he needed to smoke. And then he would smoke 40 cigars a day, and then he couldn't sleep at night, so then he would try to drink himself to sleep. The classic mistake of insomn.

[Ron Chernow]

It does strike me that if Twain were alive today, he would go viral every day, and people would be logging into social media just to read his latest quip.

[Elise Hu]

Absolutely.

[Ron Chernow]

What do you think he would make of our current vices and virtues? Like, what would. What would his commentary be on our time?

[Elise Hu]

Well, I think that there are a few places where he's really important today. You know, one, we're having an ongoing debate in terms of what constitutes patriotism. And, you know, Twain said he was driven up the wall by the saying that was common in his time, my country, right or wrong. And he said that this is sacrificing our most valuable asset. He said, you know, our country we should always support and our government whenever it deserves it. So I think that that's important. I think he's also. He was infuriated by the hyper partisanship of his own time. He said that the partisanship had become so extreme that if the democrats incorporated the multiplication table into their electoral platform, the Republicans would vote it down at the next election. You know, so he saw all these people, you know, marching in lockstep. And I think kind of my third area where his views are very important today have to do with the press, and the press is constantly under siege. And he felt that as a humorist, that he had a very important role. He said that irreverence is the champion of liberty, and it's sure's defense. And then one of my favorite Twain lines, He said, the devil's aversion to holy water is light matter compared to the dread of a despot at a newspaper that laughs. And so I think he really was functioning as the conscience of America. He himself wrestled with this idea of being outspoken, and he said almost in so many words, the need to make a living and support a family makes all of us cowards. And he felt that there were a lot of different issues that, at least in the early years, he was not speaking out on because of that fear, you know, so in a moment where there's fear of people speaking out, I think that he sets an important example of someone who showed a lot of courage. My God. You know, in his later years, he opposed the American occupation of the Philippines, and he made this Speech. He said this at a banquet. He was the toastmaster. He said that our soldiers are marching with disgraced musket under a polluted flag. Well, the audience gasped in shock. They were really horrified. You could imagine how difficult in the middle of a war it was to oppose government policy. So he increasingly was willing to stick his neck out.

[Ron Chernow]

I wonder how much courage that really took in the sense that he'd amassed a lot of cultural power. It would have been pretty difficult to cancel him in his day. And some of that power came from being contrarian. And so it was. It was expected from him. Was he really putting himself at risk?

[Elise Hu]

That's a good question, Adam, because I think that it's really the last 10 years of his life when he becomes the most outspoken politically. So I think that when one has been such a beloved figure to so many people, and then he kind of made a transition into a much more controversial figure, and I think that that can be for anyone, you know, no matter how rich or famous that person is. I think it'd be a very difficult transition.

[Ron Chernow]

Yeah, I think that makes sense.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ron Chernow]

Now, coming back to the theme of laziness.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ron Chernow]

One of my longstanding favorite Twain quips is, never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow after tomorrow. What I didn't know was that he wrote that making fun of Ben Franklin's aphorisms.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Also, I think what people don't realize in terms of all the Mark Twain quotes was they were created as Mark Twain quotes. He started when he published a novel called Pudd' nhead Wilson as the epigraph to each chapter. He printed one of these aphorisms. And he was certainly mocking Ben Franklin because he felt Franklin had produced all these sort of do gooder quotes. And he would do these quotes that started out sounding like do gooder, and then they would have this kind of, you know, wicked tale, this wicked twist.

[Ron Chernow]

So the other question that raised for me is Twain is alive at the time that most of your other subjects are. He has a relationship with Grant Rockefeller. Morgan, what did you learn from looking at sort of Twain through their eyes?

[Elise Hu]

Well, I mean, the most interesting relationship is the one with Ulysses S. Grant. And there was a lot of stuff that I have in the Mark Twain book that I wish I had had in the Ulysses S. Grant book. Because at first glance, Twain and Grant seem to be complete polar opposites. You know, Twain has fought for two weeks in this Confederate militia and then retreated. He made all these jokes about his own cowardice. He said I knew more about retreating than the man who invented retreating, you know. And then he comes upon Ulysses S. Grant, who was genuinely courageous and fearless person. But the two men form a bond, which is quite remarkable because Twain is really getting to know Grant in this deep way as Grant is dying. And Mark Twain said that Julius S. Grant was the greatest person he ever knew. And then he makes this beautiful statement because he was watching Grant, this illness and death, he said, manifestly dying is nothing to a really great and brave man, you know, which was just a beautiful tribute. And he thought that Grant. This is interesting because again, talking earlier, you know, Adam, about you go in and there's a consensus there's a stereotype about people and one of the stereotypes about from the Civil War was Grant the butcher. And yet Mark Twain said that Ulysses S. Grant was the kindest and sweetest man he had ever met.

[Ron Chernow]

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[Ron Chernow]

In our last few minutes, I want to do a lightning round if you're up for it. Okay, first question is, what was the biggest thing you changed your mind about on Twain or any of your other subjects?

[Elise Hu]

I think the thing that most shocked me really was his business life. You know, he said, I must speculate, it is in my nature. And he fails at one business after another. There is no learning curve. And Mark Twain could have led a very beautiful, serene, placid life. He makes a fortune from his book royalties, his lecture fees, marries an heiress, but it's just one self inflicted wound after another.

[Ron Chernow]

Wow.

[Elise Hu]

That's the tragedy. Wow.

[Ron Chernow]

Such a misapplication of intelligence.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ron Chernow]

What is the worst advice that Mark Twain gave?

[Elise Hu]

Mark Twain's story. It's not an inspirational tale, it's a cautionary tale. And the lesson of his life is when you're hurt, let it go.

[Ron Chernow]

Oh, that's such an important lesson to learn from him.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ron Chernow]

Okay, thinking ahead, if you were going to write a biography of a great American woman, who would be on your radar?

[Elise Hu]

Well, the three who would interest me the most and I would have done them, but they were done well already would be Abigail Adams, Harriet Tubman and Eleanor Roosevelt. And I have to say, because I've been criticized for years, people saying, Mr. Chernow, why don't you do woman? In this book, five of the six main characters are women. There's Twain, there's his wife Libby, There are three daughters, and then also his secretary, Isabel Lyon, who's a very significant figure later on. So that was actually one of the pleasures of doing this book. I got to write extensively about the women characters, and you can see in.

[Ron Chernow]

The book their influence on him. This is not just a story about Mark Twain.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I thought it was kind of one of the great stories in terms of a marriage, because his wife Livy is. You know, she's very prim and proper. You know, she had to teach him when he wrote an angry letter instead of sending it to put it in the desk. It even reached the point where they had this system of cards at a dinner party. Like, you know, red card meant, why don't you stop monopolizing the woman who's sitting to your right? A blue card would mean, are you gonna sit back and say nothing all evening? You know, so she's constantly.

[Ron Chernow]

She has cards to signal appropriate behavior to him.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Wow. And he never learned. And the three daughters used to sit on the stairs kind of watching this. They called it mother dusting off father. Oh. But he never learned, you know, and she had. She was very socially skillful. He was not. And she really gave him a life.

[Ron Chernow]

Oh, that's fascinating. Okay, what's the question you have for me?

[Elise Hu]

You know, with all of your psychological training, I'm very curious about your analysis of Mark Twain. I don't know if you want to kind of pin a label on him or a diagnosis of something. I'm really curious how you reacted to the character.

[Ron Chernow]

Well, it was. It was interesting as I was reading the book, because the first thing that came to mind was maybe manic depressive. And, you know, I'm not qualified to diagnose, let alone from a distance. But the patterns felt familiar in that way. You know, the extreme highs and then, you know, kind of the lasting lows and the repetition of those cycles. The other thing that had crossed my mind is, as I was reading about his reluctance to comment on his own greatness.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Ron Chernow]

I actually wondered about COVID narcissism. I think there was, you know, both a tremendous sense of insecurity that comes through in your portrayal of him, but also an extremely high opinion of himself that he's able to conceal for the most part. But it just. It made me wonder a little bit about. Okay, is There a, you know, an inflated but fragile ego that's constantly seeking.

[Elise Hu]

You know, actually, well, you know, you know, one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes is he said, good breeding consists in hiding how little we think of other people and how much we think of ourselves. And actually the vanity. He himself was constantly talking about his vanity. It was very hard for his family when. My favorite Mark Twain story is that the middle daughter, Clara, pursued a career as a singer. And. And so when she had her first recital in Connecticut, you know, she was torn whether to invite her father or then to invite him up on the stage. She finally decides to do it and, you know, Twain comes out with her at the curtain calls and he starts telling the audience about the first time that he ever appeared on a stage. And he talked for about 15 or 20 minutes. And all of the press coverage afterwards was about Mark Twain talking about his debut as a lecture, you know, to his daughter's heart. But that daughter, daughter Clara felt completely smothered by him. She said that she was reduced in social situations to Mark Twain's daughter. And she had a very kind of revealing sentence. She said, you know, we would be at a party or reception and father would come in and she said he would flood the room with his talk. So he was a difficult person to live with. He had a, you know, an adoring and long suffering wife who knew exactly how to handle him. But I think with the daughters saw father as this magical figure when they were young, but he could never make the transition to dealing with them as they were maturing and became adults. So there's a strange blindness, I say somewhere towards the end of the book that it was a tragic blindness that he had and it led him into all sorts of disasters that he should have foreseen coming, which he couldn't.

[Ron Chernow]

I think that's a great cautionary tale for all of us to be better than that.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. That someone who's so brilliant could be so blind.

[Ron Chernow]

Ron, this has been great fun to learn about your process and also just to experience the curiosity and the fascination that you have with other people's lives.

[Elise Hu]

I feel very, very lucky because I get to project myself into people and lives much more interesting than my own.

[Ron Chernow]

Well, I'm grateful that you choose to do it. And I think it's a great way for all of us to gain more insight and more empathy too, for the people around us.

[Elise Hu]

Thank you. This has been great fun. Adam, thanks for having me on.

[Ron Chernow]

I love the visual Ron gave us of trying to understand a person being similar to holding a Polaroid photo and watching the image gradually appear. People are full of contradictions and if we want to get a full picture of them, we have to allow time for that image to emerge. Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser, our editor is Alejandra Salazar, our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson, our technical director is Jacob Winick and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne hi, Lash Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hansdale Su and Alison Layton Brown.

[Elise Hu]

I think just to have to fall back on your own resources at an early age was important with all these people because all the figures that I've written about, they felt a tremendous sense of responsibility for the fate of their followers or the country, whatever. And so I think that that started early on with being the surrogate father in the family. How's that for a piece of armchair psychology for you?

[Ron Chernow]

I will not object.

[Adam Grant]

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[Ron Chernow]

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