Why chasing the algorithm leads to burnout with Mark Rober

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Why Chasing the Algorithm Leads to Burnout"

Podcast: WorkLife with Molly Graham (TED)
Episode Guest: Mark Rober
Release Date: June 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the intersection of creative work, technology, and sustainability with Mark Rober—one of YouTube’s most successful science creators. Host Molly Graham dives into how Mark has built a massive online career without succumbing to the toxic pressures of algorithms, hustle culture, and external validation. The episode offers a candid look at the emotional side of success, the dangers of chasing trends, and the importance of sustainability in career and life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Career Background and Defining Moments

• Mark’s NASA & Apple Experience
  • Mark spent nine years at NASA (including seven on the Mars Curiosity project) and five at Apple, bringing rigor and patience to his later YouTube work.
  • "When you're putting a rover on Mars, it's kind of binary. Either it works or it's in a smoldering heap... Seven years comes down to seven minutes." —Mark Rober [04:37]
• Youtube Origins & Growth
  • Started YouTube while still at NASA, with a focus on sharing fun ideas for their own sake before monetization was possible.
  • Maintained a one-video-per-month cadence, even as the channel grew: "I didn't quit Apple until I had 10 million subscribers. It was still me and a tripod." —Mark Rober [06:37]

2. Navigating the Algorithm & Authenticity

• Setting Personal Boundaries Against Algorithmic Pressure
  • Mark describes how creators can become trapped by trends, letting one viral video define their direction.
  • "You do one video that gets hot, and suddenly that's your whole channel... I stick to what feels good to me." —Mark Rober [07:56]
• Motivations for Creating
  • Cautions against starting a channel to get rich or famous, as those desires are never satiated.
  • "There are a thousand great reasons [to start a channel]. There are only two really bad reasons: to get rich and to get famous." —Mark Rober [02:21, 08:20]

3. Quality Over Quantity

• Mark’s North Star is consistently high-quality content, even as YouTube pushes daily uploads.
• “Sometimes it’s like 10 videos a year. Those two just weren’t quite there… Quality will win out over quantity in the long run every time.” —Mark Rober [09:17]

4. Purpose, Virality, and Creativity

• Evoking Visceral Responses
  • The goal is to share ideas that spark genuine reactions and inspire curiosity, especially in kids.
  • “To make a viral video, you have to evoke a visceral response... It's sharing ideas, getting people addicted to that 'aha' moment.” —Mark Rober [13:21]
• Simple Ideas, Big Impact
  • Prefers projects that feel accessible and inspire viewers to think, "Why didn’t I think of that?"

5. Approval, Motivation, and Wellbeing

• Early Family Dynamics
  • Mark opens up about a "constant need for approval" rooted in his upbringing, and how it can be both a blessing and a curse.
  • “It kind of makes you feel like you have to earn the love... it can be a double-edged sword.” —Mark Rober [16:59]
• Channeling Feedback for Growth
  • Public feedback doesn’t impact him negatively, but personal relationships are where approval-seeking can be tougher.
  • Healthy motivation helps him push his creative limits while maintaining perspective.

6. Avoiding Burnout & Building Sustainability

• Sustainability Analogy: The Treadmill
  • Mark compares his work pace to keeping a treadmill set at a long-term sustainable speed, rather than sprinting to exhaustion.
  • “Burnout is when you’re still doing the work, but you’re not getting the reward for it.” —Mark Rober [20:29]
• Principle-Based Living & Calculated Risks
  • Mark only took big steps (leaving Apple, scaling Crunch Labs) when stable and ready for sustainable growth.
  • Focuses on calculating risks, protecting mental health, and not indulging in outward displays of wealth.
• Social Boundaries
  • Avoids building parasocial "fan communities" to preserve mental health: “Forging this community that I’m talking to every day... seems obviously unhealthy, at least for my brain.” —Mark Rober [22:36]

7. Long-Term Thinking and Measuring Success

• Focuses on “maximizing area under the curve”—slow, steady growth prioritized over spikes and crashes.
• Success metric: “Brains reached,” not revenue or fame.
• Principle-guided decision-making: “If you just make all these decisions based off a few simple principles that are sound, good shit’s gonna happen.” —Mark Rober [29:05]

8. Science Education: New Curriculum Initiative

• Class Crunch Labs
  • Just announced: free, open-source science curriculum for grades 3-8, designed to exceed state standards and foster genuine curiosity using tricks honed from YouTube.
  • “We’re taking that formula... and even though it’s going to cost $60 million, we’re making it free forever for all teachers.” —Mark Rober [31:17]
• Personal Dedication to Teaching
  • Mark is halfway through earning teaching credentials, committed to directly empowering teachers: “It’s the most important job on the planet. They’re my people.” —Mark Rober [32:39]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Motivation:
  "You'll never be rich enough. And when you get famous enough, you're like, why did I ever want this?" —Mark Rober [02:21]
• On Burnout:
  "Burnout is when you're still doing the work, but you're not getting the reward for it." —Mark Rober [20:29]
• On Measuring Success:
  "Our metric is brains reached. It's not revenue, it's not any other metric. It's just: how can we reach more brains with this message?" —Mark Rober [30:13]
• On Creative Impact:
  "The biggest compliment you give me is, 'Oh, that's so obvious. Why didn't I think of that before?'" —Mark Rober [13:21]
• On Personal Satisfaction & Pace:
  "I always think at any moment, like, I've peaked and this is it and I had a great ride… But in the meantime, I'm just gonna still keep moving one step at a time at a comfortable pace." —Mark Rober [27:13]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:37] Mark Rober on NASA, Mars Curiosity, binary outcomes
• [06:37] Early YouTube days and maintaining independence
• [07:56] Navigating algorithmic pressure
• [09:17] Choosing quality over quantity
• [13:21] Evoking visceral responses and keeping ideas creative
• [16:59] Approval-seeking and its impact
• [20:29] Burnout, dopamine, and sustainability
• [22:36] Avoiding unhealthy parasocial dynamics
• [29:05] Principle-based living and decision-making
• [31:17] Class Crunch Labs: free curriculum for teachers
• [32:39] Mark’s personal journey toward teaching

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Episode Takeaway

Sustainability emerges as the episode’s core theme: Mark Rober's measured, principle-based choices—personally, creatively, and financially—stand as a blueprint for long-term happiness and meaningful work in an industry obsessed with speed and trends. The episode encourages listeners to:

• Focus on what sustains them, not what the algorithm demands.
• Set their own pace and definition of success.
• Invest in quality, purpose, and service to others for a more rewarding career.

Molly Graham closes by challenging listeners to ask: What does sustainability mean for you, and how can you build a career and life that’s not only successful but also truly fulfilling and resilient?

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Transcript

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[Mark Rober]

This is what I tell people when like they want to be I want to start my own YouTube channel. I was like great. There are like a thousand great reasons. There's only two really bad reasons. And the two really bad reasons are to get rich and to get famous because you'll never be rich enough. And when you get famous enough, you're like, why did I ever want this?

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Mark Rober is one of the most

[Molly Graham]

successful creators on YouTube.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

His channel has almost 75 million followers

[Molly Graham]

and over 16 billion views.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

He is posted once a month for 15 years. Each one is carefully built, deeply thought through, and driven by his own curiosity.

[Molly Graham]

His goal is to help people, especially kids, fall in love with science.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Mark is an engineer and a scientist by trade. He spent nine years at NASA and then five years at Apple. And somehow he's brought that same patience and rigor to YouTube.

[Molly Graham]

When I talked to him, Mark had

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

just announced live at the TED conference that he's launching a full science curriculum

[Molly Graham]

for third to eighth graders and is

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

giving it away for free to all teachers.

[Molly Graham]

He is full of excitement and energy about what he's doing.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

He still writes every script himself. Every video takes weeks. He doesn't seem to chase trends or let the system push him around.

[Molly Graham]

And somehow it's working spectacularly. So I want to understand how he

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

does it and what it actually feels like on the inside. I'm Molly Graham, and this is Work

[Molly Graham]

Life, where we untangle the messy human side of work. So, Mark Rover, welcome to Work Life.

[Mark Rober]

Great to be here.

[Molly Graham]

It's so nice to see you. So before you were a successful YouTuber, you worked at NASA for nine years and seven of those were on the Mars Curiosity.

[Mark Rober]

Correct.

[Molly Graham]

And I think it's like such a hard timeline for most people to imagine because from what I understand, you worked on something for seven years and you didn't actually know if it would work when it landed on actual Mars. I'm so curious what that time and that project specifically kind of taught you about time and investment and success.

[Mark Rober]

Yeah, it's a good question because it is very interesting where it's like there's so many things that you can put a lot of work into and you could see at least. Yeah, maybe you don't fully hit your goal, but you hit 80% of it, and that's pretty damn good. But when you're putting a rover on Mars, it's kind of binary. Yeah, it like either works or it's in like a smoldering heap or you miss the planet, which has happened before. So. So, yeah, it was like seven years of my life. Like I had a kid, I lost my mom. You know, so many. Like that's just on the personal life. I got my master's degree. And then, you know, at work you have 14 hour days for like, lots of times, because Mars is on a time, the stars literally have to align. So it's like you can't just launch whenever it has to be a specific window. And so for it all to come down to just like seven minutes, going from the upper atmosphere at 25,000 miles an hour down to like a comfortable four miles an hour, that's seven minutes. Either it works or it doesn't. And that first picture we got back from one of the has cams, it's low res, it's black and white, it's like 300 pixels by 300 pixels. The first picture we got back was just the shadow of the rover dominating the Martian landscape. I'll never forget that the rest of my life. We're all sitting there. It comes down like, line by line,

[Molly Graham]

like, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, blip.

[Mark Rober]

And it's like, yeah, so cool. And my hardware, by the way, is still working to this day, so fingers crossed.

[Molly Graham]

Gee, seven years of work and you have no idea. And then you find out in seven minutes, actually.

[Mark Rober]

Yeah. And then. And then. All right, now let's get to work and let's, like, explore Mars and learn some cool stuff.

[Molly Graham]

Yeah, that's so crazy. So you left NASA and then you worked at Apple for a bunch of years, but while you were working at Apple, you. You started posting on YouTube.

[Mark Rober]

Well, actually, while I was working at NASA, I started posting on YouTube.

[Molly Graham]

Oh, really?

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

I didn't know that.

[Mark Rober]

No, 15 years ago.

[Molly Graham]

15 years.

[Mark Rober]

So, yeah, I had a Halloween costume with like an iPad in front and iPad and back, and it went. And if you do a FaceTime chat, it looks like you have a hole in your body. So that was like my first. And it was kind of viral. I had like a couple million views. It's like, well, this is a cool feeling. I have more ideas. And that was back before you knew you could make money off YouTube or. It was like a thing. I just wanted to barf out these cool ideas I had. And so it's basically been one video a month since then. So I went from there, and then I worked at Apple for five years. I didn't quit Apple until I had 10 million subscribers. And it was still me and a tripod and like, I had no one on my team. Up to 10 million subscribers. And now with Crunch Labs and everything, now the channel has 75 million subscribers and we have like 140 employees.

[Molly Graham]

140 employees. It's grown so much. So I am curious because, like, YouTube is a platform Where I think there can be a lot of, like, pushes, like. Or nudges. Like, it can, you know, push you to post daily.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Molly Graham]

Like, the algorithm changes and it kind of, like, can screw with your business, but you just haven't, like, followed that. You've just posted once a month for 15 years. How do you actually, like, stay grounded in what is right for you when an algorithm is sort of, like, messing. Messing with you?

[Mark Rober]

Yeah. It's an interesting point you make, which is that, like, as a. As a. A person who uploads content, it's like, I am part of the algorithm. Like, the algorithm can train you because you do this one thing that gets hot. Sometimes people do this. They. They do one video that gets hot, and suddenly, now that's their whole channel. And, you know, they become the, you know, the scrub daddy guy in the kitchen. Because that's the video that went viral, you know, across all their other.

[Molly Graham]

You could have been the Halloween costume guy.

[Mark Rober]

You could have been the costume guy. Exactly. And so, I don't know. I think it partly comes down to, like, my initial motivation. And this is what I tell people when, like, they want to be. I want to start my own YouTube channel. I was like, great. There are, like, a thousand great reasons. There's only two really bad reasons. And the two really bad reasons are to get rich and to get famous, because you'll never be rich enough. And when you get famous enough, you're like, why did I ever want this? And so it's like, you know, but there's a thousand. Maybe you want to get. You want to sharpen your creative skills. You want to be a better storyteller. You just want to feel creative. You want to learn a skill. Like, those are all great reasons. And so for me, it was never about being rich and famous. So it was like, why would I care? Like, I'm going to stick to what feels good to me. And you're right. Like, I've done one video a month, and there was a time where they wanted vlogs and daily uploads, but we just have a radical sort of focus on quality over quantity. And, like, that's true now for the business. This is true for class Crunch Labs. What we're doing, like, just everything is quality over quantity. And sometimes I don't do. Sometimes it's like 10 videos a year. Because you know what? Those two just weren't quite there. And I don't know, like, at the end of the day, that's what makes me happy. And I don't know I think quality will win out over quantity in the long run every time. Do you want to maximize the area under the curve? Quality is the metric that you kind of want to shoot for. And yeah, it's worked out. That's been my North Star, and it will continue to be.

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[Capital One Bank Advertiser]

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[Molly Graham]

So quality is your North Star. But did you, I mean, you say you sort of have to like, know what you're trying to do or what your, your goal is. Like, what was yours when you first started and has it changed?

[Mark Rober]

Yeah, I think fundamentally I have focused more towards especially getting young folks excited about science and education.

[Molly Graham]

Was that the Halloween costume purpose?

[Mark Rober]

No, no, no. The Halloween costume purpose is. My life goal is to be on Gizmodo, this tech blog that's now defunct.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

I remember it.

[Mark Rober]

You remember Gizmodo? That was my life goal. Like, that was the peak of Mount Everest for me.

[Molly Graham]

Okay.

[Mark Rober]

And then it happened on my first YouTube videos. It's like, well, I better come up with more life goals, I guess.

[Molly Graham]

Okay.

[Mark Rober]

But fundamentally, what hasn't changed is, you know, to make a video go viral, there's a, there's a simple trick and it's not a cop out answer. The answer is to make a viral video, you just have to evoke a visceral response in the viewer. That means it can make them feel happy, it can make them feel, you know, sad, angry. You see that a lot can make them feel vindicated, it can make them feel, feel blank. Right. So what I do a lot of times is I'll just make something that hasn't been seen before because that will evoke, you know, world's largest nerf gun, world's largest jello pool, sending a satellite to space you can upload a picture to for free and get a space selfie back with the earth. Photobombing you, like, this is stuff no one's seen. So that has been my sort of North Star. And I think if you focus there, then, you know, you're just going to make content that will resonate with people. And like, that hasn't changed. So it's still, it's still evoking that visceral response generally, in a way, sharing a cool idea. Because like the biggest compliment you give me is like, oh, that's so obvious. Why didn't I think of that before? Like, I love hearing that because that's like the peak of creativity. It was in front of everyone the whole time. And so it's like, it's at the end of the day, it's sharing ideas, getting people addicted to that aha moment. Oh, I love that, that feeling. And that way, you know, then, now I've started A little fire. And now they'll go out and find more ways to get that feeling themselves.

[Molly Graham]

Do you actually get the feedback a lot? That. That was so obvious. And I wish, like, I am literally trying to imagine the squirrel jungle gym or people being like, I thought of filling a swimming pool with yellow, too, but I just didn't do it.

[Mark Rober]

It depends on the idea. But, like, I mean, certainly, I suppose that was truer earlier on. Like, the iPad idea as an example, or I went to a zoo once and I flipped my phone around and put it up to the. The glass of the. Like the monkeys. The primates. Yeah. And you record so they can see themselves on the screen and they'll come up and give you this incredible footage. They'll come up and look at themselves, but you're recording them. Like, anyone could have done that on the glass. Right. And even now when we do a big build, to the extent that we can build it with just junk, like, we just. And this is going to sound provocative, so just don't get alarmed when I say this statement, but we stole a car using a baby monitor and, like, a hundred dollars worth of parts. It was a friend's car to prove, because, like, it's called a relay attack. Half a million cars a year get stolen. And security through obscurity is bad security. So bad guys know this, but good guys don't. So we're going to make a viral video that shows we're going to give all the steps, but basically, you know, we're not using. You can get these for, like, $15,000 on the dark Web, but it's cooler to kind of make our own and be like, this is as simple as this is. So to protect yourself, just don't put your keys by the front door or put them in, like, a metal tin. And then. And now you're going to save yourself. But, like, again, even now, all this later, we have all these resources, but to the extent that we can do it with simple. With simple tools, it resonates so much more. You get more of a visceral response. Right. Yeah.

[Molly Graham]

I love it. Okay, so you're. You may not remember this, but you made a throwaway comment on a different podcast about having a constant need for approval.

[Mark Rober]

Yeah.

[Molly Graham]

And using that as motivation.

[Mark Rober]

Yeah.

[Molly Graham]

I am really curious about. To hear you just talk a little bit more about that and how you manage to keep it healthy, particularly, you know, given a platform like YouTube or the work that you do that's so public.

[Mark Rober]

Yeah, I think so. I grew up in a household where it was like creativity was really encouraged, you know, I mean my mom had the most, she had the most impact on my life by like a very, very comfortable margin. But it kind of was a household where it's like it do, do the right thing. And like that's when you get the most support and the most love. Right. So I think you're really. That impacts how you sort of go through the world. And I think that's a blessing and a curse. Right. I think in sometimes it can make me feel like I have. You're going all over on me here. I'm just great. It's cool. It kind of makes you feel like you have to earn the love, you know. And so that can be a double edged sword, right?

[Molly Graham]

Yeah.

[Mark Rober]

And less so with the public. I don't feel it as much like parasocially with like people who come up to me on the street. Like, it's less that. It's more in like interpersonal relationships, which is something I think everyone can relate to where it's like, you know, you can just relax a little bit and don't feel like. Because it could be almost like a nervous energy where it's like, I gotta be the best possible partner, you know, and then I hold myself to like an impossible standard. And so it just takes a really good partner, which I have to just like get you in a good spot. So it's a team effort.

[Molly Graham]

Does it manifest in your work?

[Mark Rober]

I think I don't. Not in a negative way. I think it manifests in my, in my work. In a good way. I feel like the negative can be interpersonally where you get like, but how

[Molly Graham]

do you use it in a good way though?

[Mark Rober]

Well, just like I want to make cool, you know that like people like, I'm excited to share a video.

[Molly Graham]

Yeah.

[Mark Rober]

And I think some people will be like, I don't care at all what anyone else thinks. And, and that I think can lead to. You don't push yourself as hard. Right. So like in my work I feel like it is a. It's healthy. Like I want even last night, I did a TED talk last night and I was like talking to my partner. I was like, oh, it's good. But it's like, I wish this one bit. I would. She's like, you don't get to say that. And I was like, she's like, you slayed it. And I was like, that's true. But also what got me to this point is that constantly being like, that was good. And I can appreciate that it was good and I can look back on what I've done, and I don't do it very often, but if I do, I'm like, yeah, that's good. But it's constantly like, but what's the next goal? What's the next mountain? And I think some point. I mean, that's what the role of dopamine in your brain. I have a pretty dopaminergic brain, but not to the point, like, Mr. Beast is a buddy of mine, he's a YouTuber, and he is a very dopaminergic brain where it's like that. I think you can go too far on that spectrum. I do feel like I have a. It's dopaminergic enough that pushed me to do stuff, but I can enjoy the weekend and enjoy what, like, I've done.

[Molly Graham]

Well, I'm so curious because, like, he has this quote that's like, you can be me or you can be happy. And then I heard you say on a podcast that you feel like you're further from burnout than you've ever been. And I do think in your industry and world, there are just a lot of folks that burn themselves out or make themselves really unhappy by chasing certain things. But you haven't done that. Like, why?

[Mark Rober]

Even from whenever you heard that, I'm even further from burnout, right?

[Molly Graham]

After last night?

[Mark Rober]

Yeah, especially after last night. But I think that's what it comes down to. It's like trusting my gut, focusing on quality. You know, I've given this analogy of just, like, keeping the treadmill at a speed that I could maintain, because it's, like, exciting when you start doing this, and this happens a lot, where someone gets some views and they hire a team, and now they have a. You know, and now they're a team of 20. And basically what they're doing is they're cranking up the treadmill to sprint speed. And it's exciting at first, but the dopamine wears off. That's not a bug. That's a feature of the way our brains work and how we've evolved. But you're still sprinting, and that's what sucks. And that's what burnout is, I think, is when you're still doing the work, but you're not getting the reward for it. And so for me, the trick is, like, look, keep it at a jogging speed again. I didn't quit my job at Apple until I had 10 million subscribers, right? I didn't start my job or my company, Crunch Labs, where we Build these boxes, we ship them to your door. Kids get to put them together and like they're really fun toys that teach them the science. I didn't start that until I had enough subscribers and I could pay for it all myself to fund it, to get it off the ground. And so it's like I will take risks, but they're like calculated risks and in time I'm never like betting the whole system at any moment. Right.

[Molly Graham]

You sound like you have like a, like a sustainability compass too.

[Mark Rober]

This is it. I think that's a good way to phrase it. It's like, you know, when I say maximizing area under the curve. If like that's your goal and you're tracking progress, views, revenue, you know, our metric is brains reached. You know, you can get VCs on board. And that's why I was afraid to even take funding. And they're going to want to pump this up and do all the things and get 2,000 employees and that's great like this. But then what happens is everything's lame and sucky and then it goes down like this. So that's less area than just like sustained growth over time.

[Molly Graham]

Yeah.

[Mark Rober]

And I do like, I focus a lot on. I'm very protective of my mental health and in the sense of just like trying to keep it really healthy and balanced. And this is why I've never built like a community like you know, the Rover crew or something. Like I feel like that's to each their own, but like that's a parasocial relationship that I don't think is healthy. Like I love meeting people on the street who have been impacted by the videos. Like, I love that. But this idea of like forging this community that I'm talking to every day and they have input on my personal life and I don't really know them to me seems like super obviously unhealthy, at least for my brain. Yeah, same with like, you know, I've never bought a Ferrari or I lived in a, I rented a three bedroom townhome for, until like a year ago. Like I've never had that also seems very obvious to me of like if you spending a lot of money and being flashy about it is like, duh, that's not gonna bring you happiness. Right. So like certain things I feel like it's not like I try harder, they just seem glaringly obvious, a bad idea.

[Molly Graham]

Yeah.

[Mark Rober]

And, and, and maintaining and really like kind of optimizing for, for long term happiness and sustainability feels very clearly the right thing to do.

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[Molly Graham]

You seem like someone that just like, knows yourself really well and maybe like, has always. Does that ring true for you?

[Mark Rober]

Kind of. I think it's grown over time. I would almost say, like, like I'm. I'm pretty good friends with Jimmy Kimmel now. And he like plucked me out of obscurity. I had like 70,000 subscribers. And he brags to his staff that he was the one who found me, not the other way around. Because usually it's the staff and they're like, you know, I did his show a couple times, coming on and doing some, like, showing some bits and stuff. And they're like, he really likes you. And then like, I was like, you say that to everyone. By the third show, I was like, I think he does like me. And he since told me and now we were like working together on a couple Netflix shows. You know, we've done a lot of projects together. And he says, like, he's like, I knew you were a star. And like, I still don't even see what he sees in me. So, like, part of it is like when you say, I'm sure of who I am, it's like I kind of am. Just heads down. The next step is always like, really? My crystal ball is pretty good. One year out, two years out, it's three years out, it starts to go hazy. But one and two years out, it's incredibly obvious to me what the right move is. And that's true for running the company, for the channel. So in that sense, I'm sure. But as far as, like, if you ask me to predict 10 years, I have no idea. I don't have some vision of myself. I always think at any moment, like, I've peaked and this is it and I had a great ride, I would be so grateful. So, like, that's it. But in the meantime, I'm just gonna still keep moving one step at a time at a comfortable pace. And wherever it takes us, it takes us.

[Molly Graham]

It's so interesting to hear you say that because I've heard you say before that you just know what the next rock is. But like, every story you tell, it just sounds like you are a very long term thinker or you've always had this long term mindset. But Maybe that's the sustainability thing. I'm just curious because, like, you, like,

[Mark Rober]

I think it's like principle based living, right? Like, if you live by certain principles and you choose the rocks you step on to cross the stream based off those principles, I can't tell you which rock I'll be on and what it will look like. But I think if you just continue to make those choices, like, it has to lead there. It's sort of like this concept of emergence with, like, where it's like you have, you know, cells in your body that all add up to create this thing. Or bees in a beehive. They. There's no mastermind masterminding that whole beehive, these incredible things. It's just each bee has a very simple set of decisions they make. And when you multiply that by, you know, a hundred thousand to a million bees, each one doing that thing, you get this incredible output. You know, in nature we call it emergence. And so I think that that applies to an individual's life. And if you just make all these decisions based off a few simple principles that are sound like good shit's gonna happen.

[Molly Graham]

And that's how you decide on the next rock. That's how you decide on, like, what's next for you is just like, yeah,

[Mark Rober]

at this point, like the North Star for what we're doing at Crunch Labs and Class Crunch Labs is just to reach as many brains as possible and just infect them with a passion for curiosity and for learning and just how good that feels. And that's the North Star. And so at work, if, you know, we're talking about things with the employees and it's like, we want a certain thing, does that help us reach that goal? If so, super easy, yes. If not, lower priority. And the same goes with my life and, you know, the choices I make as things get busier and busier, like, what. What will maximize that? And. And that's the nor. It's not. It's not revenue, it's not any other metric. It's just like, how can we reach more brains with this message we're doing something right. So let's scale this up in the most, like, responsible way possible. We're not gonna just go crazy with it, but, like, let's sustainably scale this up. And that's why I'm really excited about Class Crunch Labs is, you know, we've had to. Which is our initiative, which I announced last night in the TED Talk, it's basically a free school curriculum. Third to eighth grade exceeds all the State science standards. But it. It uses all the tricks I've learned over the past 15 years of how to hide the vegetables. Because the problem is, so much of the curriculum that's written is by folks who mean well, but they've never had to earn a view. They've never had to learn how to effectively hide vegetables and engaging content. And the biggest problem with science, if you talk to any educator, it's less about the curriculum. It's the motivation gap and getting kids to care about it. And we know how to do that. 75 million subscribers and 16 billion views later, we know how to do that. So we're taking that formula. Me and 50 other very talented, some of the best science teachers in the country are making this curriculum. And then, most importantly, even though it's going to cost $60 million, we're making it free forever for all teachers. Open source. Anybody can have it. And we've raised 10 million, but we got 50 million to go. So if anyone's watching this, send people our way would be interested.

[Molly Graham]

Yeah. I saw you tear up on stage when you announced it. And I know that you've always said you wanted to be a high school science teacher. Well, you. I mean, in some way, you. I are the world's science teacher.

[Mark Rober]

I know that's true. But also, like, I'm halfway through getting my teaching credentials. Like, I'm going to do it.

[Molly Graham]

You are?

[Mark Rober]

Yeah. I started, like, in 2018, and then things got really crazy. And so it will happen because teachers are the best. Like, it's the most important job on the planet. They're my favorite people. If I'm at a party and there's, like, an agent and, you know, some investor, a lawyer and a teacher, I mean, obviously won't be the lawyer. Sorry, lawyers. But I'm immediately like, okay, me and the teacher are gonna go to the corridor and we're gonna chat. Like, they're my people.

[Molly Graham]

Yeah.

[Mark Rober]

And they. It's the most important job on the planet. So it's like, I'm. I'm like, reinforcements are on the way. Like, we're gonna team up. They're the hero. This isn't them playing a video. Like, we team teach. Right. And it's gonna be. It's gonna be really freaking cool.

[Molly Graham]

It's so amazing. Well, Mark Rober, thank you so much for making time for this.

[Mark Rober]

Of course.

[Molly Graham]

It's so fun. It's been so fun to get to know you. And I'm. I'm so inspired by what you announced last night and just what you're doing to empower teachers.

[Mark Rober]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the platform. Like, this is a big deal for us.

[Molly Graham]

No, it's incredible.

[Mark Rober]

Thank you.

[Molly Graham]

Yeah, thank you. That was so fun. Mark is such an interesting person. There were a lot of takeaways in that conversation that I'm going to be thinking about for the next couple weeks. But honestly, the biggest one that I took away was this idea of sustainability. And Mark talked about it in, like, a bunch of different dimensions that I actually think are all really important. He talked about this idea of, like, putting the treadmill on a speed and an incline that you feel like you can keep doing for a very long time. And I think even thinking about that in years is kind of crazy. First of all, the idea of walking on a treadmill for years, but actually, like, you can just imagine how in a system like YouTube, you really need

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

to do that if you're going to

[Molly Graham]

try to make this a long term sustainable business. And I think that's so hard to imagine. What does that mean for you? Because what's sustainable for you is going to be different than what's sustainable for someone else. But it really is kind of grounding to think about what would let you keep doing something for years and years and years. The other two types of sustainability that he talked about, though, that I thought were really interesting because you've definitely seen bad examples of this are, number one, company building sustainability. So, like, he talked about the fact that he didn't leave his job until he had 10 million subscribers and he didn't hire employees until he knew that he was profitable enough to sustain them.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

And that is something that I've seen

[Molly Graham]

a lot of founders or a lot of creators make the mistake of sort of like getting ahead of their business. And then somehow either the financial weight or the operational weight actually crushes sort of what was working for them, what made them happy. And then the last kind was financial, right? Personal financial. He talked about not buying the big house until you know you can afford it. Not buying the big fancy cars and

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

the outward signs of wealth that honestly

[Molly Graham]

can get really addictive for people in terms of just this outward sign of success. And I. I just thought across all of his dimensions, it was such an interesting set of examples to think about. What does sustainability mean for you? What helps you build the life and

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

the time that you want?

[Molly Graham]

That's our show. All right, see you next week.

[Podcast Sponsor Announcer]

Work Life is a production of Ted and Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter and Leah Rose Banban Chang is our story editor mixing by Hansdale Shih. Ted's executive producer is Daniela Balarazo. Constanza Gallardo is the executive producer for Pushkin. Special thanks to Roxanne hi Lasch, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Sungman, Ivong and Ashley Murphy. If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my substack lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening.

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Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner.

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[Molly Graham]

What do you mean spend spending it right now?

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