WorkLife: The science of taste and smell with Rachel Herz

Summary

WorkLife: The Science of Taste and Smell with Rachel Herz

In the July 22, 2025 episode of "Worklife with Adam Grant," host Adam Grant delves into the fascinating world of taste and smell with esteemed neuroscientist Rachel Herz from Brown University. This in-depth conversation explores how our genetic makeup influences our sensory experiences, shaping our preferences, behaviors, and even impacting our health and relationships.

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Introduction to Supertasting

Adam Grant kicks off the discussion by sharing his personal experiences as a supertaster, individuals with heightened taste sensitivity. Describing his aversions, Grant states:

"Chocolate's disgusting. I would rather eat dirt. I hate feta, cheese, cabbage, kale, cilantro. And I've never had a sip of coffee or alcohol because the smell alone disgusts me." [04:04]

Rachel Herz explains that supertasters possess a greater number of taste buds, making certain flavors, especially bitter ones, overwhelmingly intense:

"Supertasters live in a neon taste world, so everything is more intense." [04:30]

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Genetic Foundations of Taste and Smell

The conversation delves into the genetic underpinnings of supertasting. Herz clarifies that being a supertaster is purely hereditary:

"Supertastering, that is purely genetics. You have no control over that whatsoever." [08:06]

She outlines that inheriting specific alleles from both parents results in the heightened taste sensitivity observed in supertasters.

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Health and Behavioral Implications

Rachel Herz discusses the broader implications of being a supertaster on health and behavior. Supertasters often avoid bitter but nutritious foods like leafy greens, which can lead to nutritional deficiencies and increased risks for conditions such as colon cancer and hypertension:

"People who are supertasters may be avoiding certain foods which are good for them and/or using too much salt." [12:41]

Conversely, this heightened sensitivity acts as a deterrent against habits like heavy smoking or excessive drinking, as the bitterness creates a natural barrier to overconsumption.

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Personal Anecdotes and Taste Preferences

Adam Grant shares anecdotes that illustrate the impact of supertasting on daily life. Recounting a high school incident, he reflects on his extreme aversion to overly sweet candies:

"I had to bolt up to the front of the room and spit them out into the garbage can in front of the entire class, knowing I was going to get detention." [05:02]

Rachel Herz explains that supertasters often consume more salt to mask bitterness, establishing a "positive feedback loop" where their preference for salt increases over time.

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The Overlooked Sense of Smell

Shifting focus to smell, Herz emphasizes its profound influence on our emotional and cognitive well-being. She highlights a surprising study finding that 25% of college students would rather lose their sense of smell than their cell phone:

"25% of college students would rather lose their sense of smell than their cell phone." [23:36]

Herz argues that smell is deeply intertwined with emotion and memory, stating:

"The part of the brain that is processing our conscious perception of scent is the same part of the brain that is processing emotion and emotional learning and memory." [27:22]

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Smell in Personal Relationships

The discussion explores how smell plays a critical role in personal relationships. Herz shares insights on how a partner's scent can influence intimacy and relationship longevity:

"If I don't like how you smell, you are not getting near me." [29:31]

She recounts personal experiences and observations, noting that an unpleasant scent can serve as a significant barrier to maintaining a romantic relationship.

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Detecting Health Issues Through Smell

Rachel Herz introduces the concept that sensitive smell can aid in diagnosing illnesses. She narrates a personal story where her wife, Allison, detected their son's ear infection through scent:

"Allison could detect our son's ear infection by smell. It turns out he did have an infection." [31:42]

Herz elaborates on how certain diseases, like Parkinson's, can alter body odor, making scent a valuable tool in medical diagnosis.

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Lightning Round: Quick Insights

In a fun and engaging Q&A segment, Rachel shares quick insights:

• Favorite Finding about Taste or Smell:

  "The color of the plate that a food is served on can change our perspective of the taste profile of that food." [36:55]

• Dream Dinner Party Guest:

  "Julia Child. I just follow her around in my kitchen rather than the other way around." [37:53]

• Advice for Handling Body Odor Issues:

  "There could be physiological reasons, such as metabolic conditions or hygiene habits. It's important to approach the topic sensitively." [38:22]

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Conclusion and Future Perspectives

The episode wraps up with reflections on the importance of understanding our sensory experiences. Rachel Herz hints at future innovations, such as digital scent transmission:

"I think this is going to be something that is in the near future that you are going to be able to send and receive the sense that the other side of the screen is experiencing." [41:36]

Adam Grant expresses gratitude for the enlightening discussion:

"This is so fascinating. I could ask you questions all day about tasting, taste and smell." [40:15]

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Key Takeaways

• Genetics Play a Crucial Role: Being a supertaster is entirely genetic, influencing how intensely one perceives certain flavors.

• Health Implications: Supertasting can lead to healthier choices by deterring harmful habits but may also result in avoidance of nutritious foods.

• Undervalued Sense of Smell: Smell significantly impacts emotional well-being, memory, and interpersonal relationships, yet it is often undervalued in society.

• Medical Diagnostics: Enhanced olfactory sensitivity can aid in early detection of certain health conditions.

• Sensory Interplay: Visual elements, such as plate color, can alter taste perception, showcasing the complex interplay between different senses.

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This episode of "Worklife with Adam Grant" offers a compelling exploration of how our senses of taste and smell are not just passive experiences but active influences shaping our health, behaviors, and relationships. Rachel Herz's expertise provides listeners with a deeper appreciation of the intricate connections between our genetics, sensory perceptions, and daily lives.

Transcript

[Elise Hu]

Hi TED Podcast listeners. It's Elise Hu here from TED Talks Daily. Thanks for making our podcast part of your routine. We really appreciate it and we want to make your favorite TED podcasts even better. We put together a quick survey and we'd love to hear from you. It only takes a few minutes, but it helps us shape our shows and get to know you, our listeners, way better. Head to the episode description to find the link. Thank you again for listening and for taking the time to help our shows.

[Rachel Herz]

This episode is sponsored by Greenhouse, the leading hiring platform helping companies get Measurably better at hiring. In today's world of work, time is precious and talent is everything. But too often, hiring gets bogged down in administrative tasks that slow teams down. That's where Greenhouse AI comes in. Greenhouse AI automates the tedious parts of the hiring process so recruiters and hiring managers can spend more time doing what they do best finding the right people for the right roles. With Greenhouse, you can pinpoint and engage top talent with precision, streamline interviews using AI tools that handle the busy work and make faster, more confident hiring decisions. In a competitive talent landscape, having the right tech isn't just helpful, it's essential for building teams that thrive. Book your demo today to learn more about Greenhouse [e-mail] this episode is sponsored by IBM. Is your AI built for everyone, or is it built to work with the tools your business relies on? IBM's AI agents are tailored to your business and can easily integrate with the tools you're already using so they can work across your business, not just some parts of it. Get started with AI [e-mail] the AI built for business IBM this episode is brought to you by Earth Animal. Most of us want to make better choices for ourselves, our families and the planet. Earth Animal is bringing that same mindset to pet care with a simple Our pets deserve products made with the same care and quality we'd want for ourselves. That philosophy led to Earth Animal no Hide Chews, a rawhide free alternative made with simple, wholesome ingredients. They're long lasting, easily digestible, and made in the USA by a certified bee corporation. It's a small switch, but one that shows a lot about how we care. Visit earthanimal.com and use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. Always supervise chewing. Terms and conditions apply.

[Adam Grant]

Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking My Podcast with Ted on the Science of what Makes Us Tick. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the Minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

[Rachel Herz]

Like Rachel Herz, we are hardwired actually to find bitter, bad and sweet good. Now, the problem of today's world is that we have an overabundance and easy access to all kinds of things that are sweet. And over consumption of those sorts of things is not healthy.

For years, people made fun of me.

[Adam Grant]

For eating like a five year old.

[Rachel Herz]

Then I learned something that changed my understanding of my palate and might change yours too. Rachel Herz is a neuroscientist at Brown who specializes in taste and smell. She's the author of why youy Eat what yout Eat and the Scent of Desire. And also joining us today by Popular.

[Adam Grant]

Demand is a special guest co host, my favorite novelist. This is my wife, Allison.

[Allison Grant]

Hi Rachel.

[Rachel Herz]

Nice to meet you, Alison.

[Adam Grant]

Together we're digging into some big ideas about taste, scent and memory.

[Rachel Herz]

But first I needed to get Rachel's.

[Adam Grant]

Take on my own eating preferences.

[Rachel Herz]

And it turns out we have something in common.

[Adam Grant]

I want to give you a list of foods that I hate and I'm hoping you can tell me something about me. Chocolate's disgusting. I would rather eat dirt. I hate feta, cheese, cabbage, kale, cilantro. And I've never had a sip of coffee or alcohol because the smell alone disgusts me. So what am I?

[Rachel Herz]

Sounds like you are actually probably a supertaster, which means that you are a fantastic. No, it means that you actually have a lot more taste buds that are sensitive to all tastings, but they particularly show up in terms of their reactivity to bitter foods. So coffee, black coffee, alcohol, those substances will taste extremely bitter. Supertasters live in a neon taste world, so everything is more intense.

[Adam Grant]

Rachel, I was just thinking about conveying the intensity factor. And I was remembering in high school, there was a class right before lunch and a friend of mine would bring candy in and we would sneak it under the desk. And one day I heard him eating Skittles and I stuck out my hand and he poured a bunch in my hand, shoved them into my mouth so the teacher wouldn't see. And it was so disgusting that I had to bolt up to the front of the room and spit them out into the garbage can in front of the entire class, knowing I was going to get detention.

[Rachel Herz]

I knew he gave me M and Ms.

[Adam Grant]

Instead of Skittles. And so I confronted him about it after detention and he burst out laughing and said, I think I gave you 30 or 35 Skittles and one M&M. I can't believe you could taste that. It completely ruined the Skittle flavor. So I wondered, does that put me on the far extreme of super tasting?

[Rachel Herz]

So that was my dog. She says yes. So basically, that is really about smell. It's specifically the aroma of chocolate. So I'm going to say that you have either and or both a variant of the allele that normally, well, that detects chocolate, but it's a different version than most people have and somehow is perceived differently by you than other people and. Or also many, many copies of that mutant allele such that it is extremely unpleasant for you and you're also extremely sensitive to it. So that's my. I just made that up.

[Adam Grant]

But good to know. I'm gonna hold my nose next time I eat Skittles just in case.

[Rachel Herz]

I'm actually also a supertaster. I mean, one thing I will ask you, though. Do you like salt? Salty stuff?

[Adam Grant]

I don't think I've ever used salt on anything.

[Rachel Herz]

Ah, interesting.

[Adam Grant]

Sweet is much better than salty.

[Rachel Herz]

Okay. That's interesting to me because actually, the one taste that supertasters tend to actually use more of when given free reign is. Is salt, because salt actually masks bitter taste. So if you've had to deal with eating the bitter leafy greens and kind of learned inadvertently that adding salt to the broccoli or the Brussels sprouts actually makes it more palatable, it's actually because that salt is blocking the bitterness. And the more salt you consume, the more salt you like, the more salt you use, et cetera, et cetera. So it's like a positive feedback loop. So supertasters tend to use a lot of salt in their eating just because they end up liking it for itself. But also having learned that it's a good barrier to the bitter, now hating the scent of cilantro or the flavor of cilantro is actually because from a genetics perspective, you are missing the receptor, the olfactory receptor that detects this lovely herbaceous note that people that love cilantro can detect. And all you can detect is the soapy quality, which everyone can also detect as well, pretty much. But usually it's masked or overlaid by this herbaceous quality. That is what people are gravitating towards. But if you don't get the herbaceous part, you just get the soap.

[Adam Grant]

We just met, and I feel like you've known me for years.

[Rachel Herz]

So what is your favorite ice cream? If I could ask you a question?

[Adam Grant]

Cotton candy.

[Rachel Herz]

Ah, interesting. I mean, it sounds like it's very sweet with maybe some cherry Notes connected to it possibly. Like, I think cotton candy is a little bit cherry esque.

[Allison Grant]

It's like the syrupiness of it, I think.

[Adam Grant]

Oh yeah. But it just tastes the additive, right?

[Allison Grant]

The flavor. You like the cotton candy flavor?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, that's right. Can you explain why I am this way? What caused me to be a supertaster? Why do I have all these extra taste buds?

[Rachel Herz]

Okay, so supertastering, that is purely genetics. You have no control over that whatsoever. It doesn't matter how many push ups you can do or your IQ or anything like this. It's actually just the number of taste buds that you have in your mouth and that has to do actually with your parents. So in order to be a SuperTaster, you need two copies of one type of allele for this gene for number of taste buds. So I'm guessing that your parents are probably at least medium tasters, both of them. One might actually be a super taster. They could both be supertasters, but they have to at least be medium tasters because you would need to get a copy from each of them. And if one of them was a non taster, then you wouldn't be able to get a supertaster copy.

[Adam Grant]

Got it. My grandmother hated chocolate. So it seems to go back a couple generations.

[Rachel Herz]

Absolutely. It would. I mean, this is genetics that goes through the family tree. You probably can't escape it anyway. This is something definitely that's passed on, which you don't have any control over. Alison, what are you, do you think you like. Do you hate kale? Dark black coffee? No. You're.

[Allison Grant]

No, I don't like super bitter things like coffee or dark chocolate. But I'm certainly not as sensitive to it as Adam is. But one of our children, I think has certainly ended up with Adam's tendencies when it comes to his palate.

[Rachel Herz]

Well, that would completely make sense because you have at least one copy of the supertaster side of things and Adam has two. So you're going to have a child that you're going to have at least 50% chance of being supertaster as well.

[Adam Grant]

Why is it that having extra taste buds makes bitter foods bad, but sweet food's sweeter?

[Rachel Herz]

We are hardwired actually to find bitter bad and sweet good. And that is because in nature bitter, which is a signal from the point of view of chemistry of alkaloids or things that are basic. So things like lye and other types of things are highly basic. That's, you know, what they dissolve the bodies with in the gangster movies. And so Forth that's a highly, highly corrosive, extremely basic substance. And those things are bad for you. So things that are in general poisonous, things that have also spoiled, those are things that, except for the bitter leafy greens and maybe a couple of other exceptions, things that we should not swallow. So in fact, we have at least 25 different bitter receptors, things that can detect different forms of bitter. They're not all the same, just to make sure that we don't end up swallowing it if we get it in our mouth, because the chances of, you know, surviving something that is highly bitter are questionable. Now, on the other end of the spectrum completely the opposite is sweet. Now, sweet we are also hardwired to like, because sweet is a signal, chemically speaking, for carbohydrates and sugar. And carbohydrates is the best, fastest usable form of energy. So we need carbohydrates to survive. We need carbohydrates to go over the hill and down the dale for finding, for hunting, for gathering, for everything else. So we absolutely need sweet in order to survive. So from an evolutionary perspective, as much as possible, we want to eat sweet and not eat bitter.

[Adam Grant]

Whenever people talk about super tasting, it sounds like a really great thing, like, oh, would you be a master sommelier? Or, you know, would you be a great chef? No, there's too much I don't like. And it actually seems like non tasters are more able to discriminate between tastes. But I don't, I don't know what it's like to be a non taster. Is that right?

[Rachel Herz]

Wrong.

[Allison Grant]

What is a non taster?

[Rachel Herz]

A non taster just has fewer taste buds. It doesn't mean that you can't taste, it's just that things are less intense. So it is the case actually that more chefs tend to be supertasters. And that is, I think, because, you know, obviously they're predisposed to liking flavors and foods and so forth. So there are more chefs that are in the supertaster camp. However, I once worked with a chef, Wiley Dufresne. He has a lot of, you know, major restaurants, does a lot of molecular gastronomy. He is a non taster and he actually said that he thought that was helpful for him because there's only about 30% or so of the population that are supertasters. So if you're a non taster, you're basically getting a broader perspective of what your customers are experiencing. And he thought also being a non taster gave him sort of a different access into the flavor world. And if you were a supertaster, maybe you'd actually be holding back as a chef on various flavor concoctions and combinations. So he thought that being a non taster was actually advantageous.

[Adam Grant]

So interesting. Does where you fall on this spectrum from super tasting to non tasting have any implications for your life?

[Rachel Herz]

Well, so, yes. So as a function of what you like to eat or what you would avoid eating, it can have health and behavioral implications. So for example, people who are more likely to end up being heavy smokers or heavy drinkers are not likely to be supertasters. Mainly because the barrier to entry, like the burn from the cigarette smoke, would be a problem to really get into smoking a lot of cigarettes. So anytime you get into the abuse end of things, you have to be able to tolerate consuming a lot over a long period of time. Or if drinking actual real alcohol is going to have to water it down with fruit juices or other sorts of things, you're not going to be getting as much alcohol and therefore less likely to fall into a category that could be dangerous from the point of view of addiction. Not to say that there aren't non tasters who are smokers and drinkers, but it's just less likely because there's a higher barrier to entry to get into that level of consumption. Now because of avoiding the sort of leafy bitter greens and other kinds of foods which are actually highly good for you because of the antioxidants quality and having, let's say the diet of a five year old, you are not necessarily protecting yourself from the point of view of the food that you consume and potentially also running into some physiological problems. So colon cancers are higher in supertasters than in non tasters, for example, and also potentially even hypertension if you're using too much salt. So the idea is you just have to be aware like that you may be in a category where you're avoiding certain foods which are good for you and or using, let's say, too much salt, if that's the case. And then as a function of being aware of that, maybe trying to eat other things, like if you like blueberries, you know, also high antioxidants. So trying to at least substitute certain things and you can make healthy choices deliberately.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so there's good news and bad news here. The good news is I eat blueberries every day. Check.

[Rachel Herz]

Okay.

[Adam Grant]

The bad news is that my mom used to force feed me lima beans when I was a kid. Are you saying that she should have been going with spinach or kale or.

[Rachel Herz]

Broccoli no, lima beans are really good for you.

[Allison Grant]

I mean.

[Rachel Herz]

So. So she did a good job. I don't think I've had lima beans since I was a little. I don't know what. Lima beans must have been a. I'm.

[Adam Grant]

Really glad they're not anymore. Okay, so the other. The other thing I was really curious about is, for me, taste and smell are just inextricably interconnected. I cannot imagine something that smells bad tasting good. Allison, when you cook salmon, sometimes I have to leave the house because it's just overwhelmingly bad.

[Allison Grant]

That doesn't speak well of my cooking.

[Adam Grant]

No, it's not your cooking. If anyone were cooking any seafood, I would. I would want to exit the premises. So does fish smell bad to you?

[Allison Grant]

No, it doesn't. I mean, fish is fishy. I can understand why it would smell bad to you.

[Adam Grant]

It doesn't smell bad to you, but.

[Allison Grant]

It doesn't bother me.

[Adam Grant]

Like, Venice doesn't stink to you?

[Allison Grant]

Well, that's a whole different thing.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, but have you ever smelled fish that just stunk?

[Allison Grant]

I don't think so.

[Adam Grant]

So, Rachel, what is this? Why does fish smell bad to me? Why doesn't it smell bad to Allison?

[Rachel Herz]

So, intensity is a major factor from the point of view of smell. So the more intense something smells to you, even if it's your favorite, whatever it is, the less pleasant it's going to be. Now, from the point of view of smell, that has to do with the number of copies of certain types of receptors that you have. If you have many copies of a certain type of receptor that's potentially very acutely attuned to what's called trimethylamine, that's actually the chemical of fishy smell, then even the mere small amount of fish is going to be noticeable to you. And anything that's kind of in an average level is going to be really strong and therefore unpleasant. Now, Allison, I'm guessing, I mean, there's no such thing as the right or the wrong or whatever, but let's say she definitely has fewer than you. And maybe, if, depending upon the concentration, I don't know what you were talking about with Venice. Is that the city you're referring to? So, yeah, okay, so maybe so. Standing at the edge of, like, some dirty embankment with all kinds of dead fish washed up, I'm sure Allison could probably get that as being unpleasant. So seeing the fish dead, you know, that's unpleasant. So whether or not you think something is unpleasant has to do with the meaning of whatever it is to you. And if it's dead fish carcasses, that's going to be really aversive, even if the scent in another context meant something else entirely. So this actually gets to one of my favorite topics when it comes to smell, taste, food and whatever is context effect, in that the context in which you are experiencing something influences your interpretation of the meaning of what it is you're experiencing and therefore changes your perception. And this is particularly the case for smell, because smells are invisible. And therefore, as highly visually oriented creatures, that's what we are. We're always looking. What is that? When we get that information from our eyes or our ears, we go, aha. That's what that is. Okay, now that thing, whatever it is, is good or bad. And I did an experiment a long time ago that really demonstrated this. When I gave somebody a scent, it went from one end of the polar extreme of liking to the other end of disliking. People wouldn't even believe me that they were smelling the same thing at two occasions. And it was exactly the same thing.

[Adam Grant]

Wow. This is related to something that our producer Jessica pointed out, which is in Beijing. She tasted something called stinky tofu, which she said smells like, and I quote, gym socks in a locker. But it tastes amazing. I cannot even fathom this. How could something smell bad and taste good?

[Rachel Herz]

There are a few things that fall in that category. Durian is another one. So that fruit, it's popular in South Asia. The scent is highly pungent, but the flavor is very different from the scent. And actually, you know, another example of this, but in the opposite category, is in fact coffee, where often people say that smell is really pleasant, but when I taste it, it's really aversively bitter. So it is not necessarily the case that the smell and the taste go hand in hand. Biting into something releases different volatiles that you would not have smelled if you were just sniffing. And therefore it can change the profile of the flavor scent so much that they end up not smelling alike. Now, it's not very common, but that can definitely happen.

[Adam Grant]

Got it.

[Rachel Herz]

The whole is not the same as the sum of the parts when it comes to smell. So you can never be sure exactly what you're getting into.

[Adam Grant]

Does fermented cheese also fall in that camp?

[Rachel Herz]

So cheese is by definition sort of controlled fermentation overall. So is there a particular cheese you're thinking of? Like, there are certain cheeses that are definitely in the stinkier end of things.

[Adam Grant]

Is there a stinky cheese you like?

[Allison Grant]

I like all cheese. I don't discriminate.

[Rachel Herz]

I'm with Allison there too. I mean the thing is that it's also again, it's like certain aspects of texture, like the creamy ooziness. I mean, I really like that texture sensation. And so even if the scent is, let's say from a distance, not particularly appealing, the overall experience when consuming it is really appealing. And again also the scent changes in my mouth than it is purely from my nostrils.

[Adam Grant]

Very interesting.

[Rachel Herz]

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[Adam Grant]

So let's talk about smell in more detail. So, Rachel, I was reading, I think, an interview you did where you mentioned that a surprisingly large number of college students would rather ditch their sense of smell than their cell phone. Can you tell us about that?

[Rachel Herz]

So during the second year of COVID So this was in 2021. And actually, interestingly, although there is some sort of tangential data that had been collected over the last 25 years, there really hadn't been anything that explicitly other than sort of anecdote, people saying, oh, who cares about your sense of smell? And also the American Medical association actually stating that in terms of value of like, you lose something and then you get compensation. So the value of your sense of Smell is between 1 and 5% of your life's worth. You know, monetarily speaking, vision is given 85%. So if you were in an accident, you lost your vision, you'd get 85% of your compensation trajectory. If you lost your sense of smell, you'd get between 1 and 5% depending upon how you could prove its relevance to you. And I had been involved, I have been involved in a number of lawsuits as a expert witness to sort of say, no, no, no, wait a second, this is way more important than that. And I thought, okay, here we are now, people are losing their sense of smell because of COVID It ended up being a real symptom, for the most part, temporary, but then also for a large population, it ended up being long term. Then people who had had that, even if it was a brief loss of smell, were contacting me saying, oh my God, like, I was really sick with COVID but I had no idea how important my sense of smell was. And then the people that had loss were really beside themselves. So I thought, okay, let's see what happens if we actually ask people how important their sense of smell is, and then evaluated first of all how much they cared about their sense of smell versus hearing and vision. And then separate from that, what about compared to a set of common commodities? So we had certain things that were physical, other things that were more sort of personal use perspective, but also monetarily related. We had, you know, $10,000 was another one. And this is now during COVID where people are, I thought, aware of losing their sense of smell as being a bad thing. Still, 25% of college students would rather lose their sense of smell than their cell phone. 50% actually would rather lose their sense of smell than their hair. Okay, so that, so hair ended up being like, super important. I'm like hair. I mean, yes, I like my hair too, but it's not doing anything like you can, you know, maybe it's protecting you from the cold or, you know, and we've actually just done this study, replicating it in a bunch of different countries, around the world, different languages, and we get more or less the same effects.

Huh.

[Adam Grant]

You said 85% of people would rather lose their sense of smell than sight. Who are the other 15%? Like, who. Who is willing to give up their vision for their smell?

[Rachel Herz]

Why?

The way the wording kind of makes it sound slightly different than a side by side comparison, but there are people who recogn, you know, different sensory experiences as being valid as well. I should say that one of the problems with the way this was worded is we made assumptions about ever being able to smell again or ever being able to have a cell phone. And it is a little bit different if you kind of pitch it, as in you've lost this for the rest of your life versus sort of a momentary understanding of what it means not to have it. So there is some nuance there in terms of the interpretation of what it means to completely be without something that makes sense. Still, cell phones win by far.

[Adam Grant]

So, okay, so go back to the idea that we undervalue smell. You said, you know, generally speaking, people get, what, 1 to 5% of their net worth if they lose their sense of smell, and that's too little. What percent do you think they should get?

[Rachel Herz]

Well, in all honesty, this may sound extreme to you, but I think that they should get between 90 and 100% of their net worth because people don't understand. Their entire life was turned upside down in tremendously devastating ways. And most significantly, actually, and this is what people don't appreciate is in terms of their emotional life, in their sense of self. And in terms of their interpersonal interactions with the entire world around them, from those with whom they are intimate, to friends and colleagues and acquaintances and so forth. And severe depression can actually become something that people develop as a function of losing their sense of smell. And this isn't just because, oh, I, I don't get the pleasures from smell that I used to get. It's actually because the part of the brain that is processing our conscious perception of scent is the same part of the brain that is processing emotion and emotional learning and memory. And so when you have input from one end of that equation, absent from the other side of that equation, starts to derail. And so serious emotional negative states can evolve. And the fact is that if you have lost it permanently, that side is, is continuing to devolve. And so the other side of the equation, the emotional functioning side, is also continuing to become more and more debilitated. So these are progressively negative states. And then you have the whole social experience of your world around you. You don't potentially realize it. But even being able to smell yourself, that's kind of like who you are. And if you don't have that, you kind of like lose yourself. I mean, it is maybe seems like strange, but if you don't have it, you become really disconnected from yourself, from other people. And it's even connected quite profoundly to our cognitive capabilities, that is to say, our mental acuity, our ability to think, even our spatial abilities, like being able to find the post store, like reading a map. I mean, it turns out that actually spatial memory and spatial orientation is highly linked to the processing of smell.

Wow.

[Adam Grant]

Had no idea that the sense of smell was so core. But you did. You called yourself a smell enthusiast, not just scientist. How did you fall for your husband?

[Rachel Herz]

Well, I mean, I should say it's because of how he smells. I mean, in reality, that was not the reason. It wasn't like the beacon, the flashing smell, and I came running across the room. But it certainly is the case that if I had not liked how he smelled, that would have been a barrier for us ever getting together. I mean, this is an interesting segue because what women say in marital counseling sessions, or privately, even to the therapist when they want to dump their husbands, is, I cannot stand how he smells. And this is something that's probably evolved over the course of the relationship, but now that this is a thing, it is the barrier to intimacy. If I don't like how you smell, you are not getting near me. And I actually had this happen to me a long time ago. I Was dating, went out with this guy. He was in law school. All kinds of other sort of pedigree. Things all looked good. Nice guy and so forth, and. And there was something about how he smelled that just turned me off. It was one date and done. And I've also heard of people when they first smelled their husband, they knew they were gonna marry him. So it can lead in that direction. But the real critical part is that it doesn't stop the relationship.

[Adam Grant]

Wow. I've never thought about this before, Allison. Did you?

[Allison Grant]

Well, smells pretty important to me, so. I mean, I never thought about it in relation to, like, a romantic relationship, but I can see how that would be a huge turnoff for people if they couldn't stomach the smell of their partner. For sure.

[Adam Grant]

It never occurred to me to think, like, on our first date, were you like, I like the smell of this guy.

[Allison Grant]

No, I wasn't sniffing you out, but I didn't notice anything fishy either.

[Rachel Herz]

Although, Allison, you said you like fish.

[Allison Grant]

So I do like fish.

[Rachel Herz]

That's true.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. One of the other things I wanted to ask you about, Rachel, is people differ in their smelling sensitivity and skill. Alison has the nose of a jungle cat.

[Allison Grant]

This is true.

[Adam Grant]

I remember when our son was a baby, she once sniffed out his ear infection. Do you remember this?

[Allison Grant]

Oh, yes. He was in his crib and woke from a nap, and I lifted him out of the crib, and his head was right next to my head, and. And I could just smell it. He has an ear infection. It turned out that he did.

[Adam Grant]

That was a special smell, but I didn't even notice. But what made me think of it was I read an article about a woman who could smell Parkinson's, and I wondered if Allison is missing a calling.

[Rachel Herz]

Well, so we all actually have two unique things about smell. We each have a unique body odor. So the way that we each smell is different across every single person, which is how the tracking dog finds you and not somebody else when you leave your sock behind. But also, each of our noses, as a function of the genetics that are determining what receptors, how many copies of which receptors, and so forth are turned on in our nose, is ever so slightly different for everybody. And as I said before, the more copies you have of certain types of receptors, the more you're going to be able to smell compounds that activate those receptors. And if you have fewer versions of those. So, number one, Allison may have more copies of. I don't know if it was a yeast infection in your son's ear or some other kind of infection. Whatever it might have been that were able to detect the compound that was creating the inflammation and infection in your son's ear than Adam has. But it's also the case that, Allison, you said something that was really interesting and telling and that it smelled different. And doctors actually really used to use their noses for diagnosing a whole variety of illnesses. Now, if it were the case that your son had a yeast infection that is a particular scent, there's also the scent of someone's breath if they have diabetes. There's a whole set of different disorders. And actually turns out, apparently Parkinson's disease, where your body odor changes or your breath odor changes as a function of the illness because it's affecting your physiology and your metabolism and so forth, or even just locally, acutely, let's say, over producing something in your ear, let's just say that is detectable by smell. And people who are tuned into this, like I said, you know, prior to the 20th century, doctors really did use their noses for diagnostic purposes and that. But also noticing when something doesn't smell the way it usually does is a signal that there's something off and something possibly wrong. And if it was your son's head and his ear, and you see, okay, it's coming from there, that's where there's something is wrong. And therefore, very clever. You diagnosed him.

[Adam Grant]

You know what I'm just realizing as you describe that is, Allison, you had a baseline awareness of what his ear normally smelled like to then notice the difference. I never thought about it that way. I just imagined it as, oh, you smelled something that wasn't right.

[Rachel Herz]

Well, even if it wasn't conscious, like, you're like, oh, I've been smelling my son's head and ear, and this is the normal smell. And now I smell something different. You are aware of, even somewhat unconsciously of, this is how my baby smells. And now my baby smells different.

[Allison Grant]

Absolutely.

[Adam Grant]

So fascinating.

[Rachel Herz]

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[Rachel Herz]

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[Adam Grant]

Okay, I think it's time for a lightning round. Okay, first question. What is your favorite finding about taste or smell?

[Rachel Herz]

Science wise, the interpretation of something is so powerful for driving meaning and then response to it. And that can be influenced by what you see. I mean, for instance, even the color of the plate that a food is served on can change our perspective of the taste profile of that food.

[Adam Grant]

The color of the plate affects the how food tastes.

[Rachel Herz]

How?

So for instance, if you have something sweet, let's say a strawberry dessert or cotton candy ice cream, and you had that in a white bowl, it would taste sweeter than if it were in a black bowl. And also something that's sweet if it's in red, if it accentuates the sort of rosiness of it, can make it taste sweeter than if it's in something blue, which might actually accentuate the saltiness of it.

[Allison Grant]

You're going to want to redo the whole kitchen.

[Adam Grant]

All right, Allison, over to you.

[Allison Grant]

Rachel, who would be your dream dinner party guest?

[Rachel Herz]

Julia Child.

[Allison Grant]

Wow.

[Rachel Herz]

I just follow her around in my kitchen rather than the other way around. So that would be fun.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. And then asking for a friend here, if you know someone who has body odor, what is your best advice for how to navigate that?

[Rachel Herz]

Does the person themselves dislike their body odor? I mean, everybody has a body odor.

[Adam Grant]

So let's say multiple people have observed that this person has body odor and no one's willing to tell them. Can you just get them deodorant as a gift?

[Rachel Herz]

Okay. Well, in certain cases, this can be because of a certain physiological condition. So it may be that metabolically there's something going on with this person. Either it's benign or it might not be, in which case you actually have a possibly medical reason to broach this, to say, you know, there might be something underlying that's concerning. Another thing is potentially how often do they bathe and. Or it's just they maybe sweat a lot more. They're just whatever the case might be. So I think that there's different tactics to take as a function of the reasons you think that might be the case. It is something that's awkward to say, like, I think you should be using deodorant and you don't.

[Adam Grant]

Or maybe we'll just send them a link to this podcast. What's the question you have for us?

[Rachel Herz]

So, actually, if you don't mind me asking this question just in general about the podcast, this is, I guess, a question I have for you in terms of how do you pick your guests?

[Adam Grant]

Oh, I usually start with whose work fascinates me and whose like both insights and way of sharing them would be thought provoking or surprising to our listeners.

[Allison Grant]

Things that you're curious about are probably things that other people that your audience are curious about. So I'm sure there are supertasters out there who will be delighted that this is today's topic of conversation.

[Adam Grant]

And hopefully other people in their lives will not like, they won't give them weird looks anymore or judge them. I want to get rid of the judgment. That's the mission here. I feel stigmatized based on taste buds that I can't control.

[Rachel Herz]

Well, so Allison's a super smeller. Well, that doesn't exist quite in the same way, but you're highly sensitive to smell and Adam's a supertaster. So you're a perfect couple. Or have problems in restaurants. One of the two.

[Adam Grant]

Well, Rachel, thank you for joining us. This is so fascinating. I could ask you questions all day about tasting, taste and smell.

[Allison Grant]

Absolutely. We didn't even get to fragrance, just so you know.

[Rachel Herz]

This is a side I put on perfume, even though we're not smelling each other, because it puts me in a certain mindset. Like, it brings me into a certain mental space, even though you can't smell it. And it's a perfume that I wear most of the time, so I'm actually pretty much desensitized to it, except for when I first put it on. I get that little spritz hit. And the mental space that it puts me in is a little bit above and beyond. So I smelled up for you instead of dressed up.

[Allison Grant]

Thank you.

[Adam Grant]

Thanks Rachel.

[Rachel Herz]

Thank you.

[Adam Grant]

Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glaser, our editor is Alejandra Salazar, our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson, our technical director is Jacob Wynne and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne hi, Lash Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Su and Alison Layton Brown Future of Podcasting will have a smell receptor in the computer.

[Rachel Herz]

I actually think this is going to be something that is in the near future that you are going to to be able to send and receive the sense that the other side of the screen is experiencing.

[Adam Grant]

I don't want it, but you two have fun.

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