The Journey Towards Gender Equality: Are Laws on the Books Enough? | The Development Podcast

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Title: The Journey Towards Gender Equality: Are Laws on the Books Enough?
Podcast: The Development Podcast (World Bank Group)
Date: March 8, 2024
In celebration of International Women’s Day, this episode explores the global journey towards gender equality, focusing on economics, legal rights, and practical solutions to close gender gaps. Through insights from policymakers, entrepreneurs, and leaders in international organizations, the episode examines not only legislative advancements but also the persistent barriers women face and the immense benefits of gender parity for global growth.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Significance of Gender Equality in Economic Development

• Economic Rationale: Gender equality is presented as not merely a moral imperative but also an economic one. Including women more fully into economies could potentially double global growth rates over the next decade.
• World Bank Report Findings: The episode references the latest Women, Business and the Law Report, highlighting alarming data: women worldwide have less than two-thirds of the legal rights of men, and earn on average 77 cents to every dollar earned by men ([10:09]).

Inspirational Voices and Memorable Quotes

• Collage of Influential Women: The episode opens with inspiring quotes from figures like Hillary Clinton, Malala Yousafzai, and others, setting the stage for the value and urgency of equality ([03:34-03:59]).
  • Malala Yousafzai: "The choice is ours. What will you do? What will you choose to save?" ([03:34])
  • Ellen Johnson Sirleaf (via Geeta Gopinath’s reading): "The size of your dreams must always exceed your current capacity to achieve them. If your dreams do not scare you, they are not big enough." ([03:59])

National Case Studies: Togo and Rwanda

Togo: Progress and Leadership

• Prime Minister Victoire Tomega Dogbe discusses her country’s reforms, emphasizing self-investment and community engagement:
  • "I really encourage women to invest in themselves, but also to find a way to invest in their communities..." ([05:10])
• Togo stands out in Sub-Saharan Africa for progress in gender legislation, with women now possessing approximately 77% of the rights available to men—the highest score in the continent ([05:10]).

Rwanda: Female Entrepreneurship and Inclusion

• Maurice Mbonyumutua, a Rwandan entrepreneur, highlights:
  • Women constitute over 80% of her factory workforce, with supportive policies like free childcare, lunch, and sanitary products ([07:56]).
  • On workplace equality: "Being a woman in Rwanda, what I have noticed has become a non problem or a non question. ... It has become normal." ([09:40])
• Rwanda is depicted as leading in both parliamentary representation (over 60% women) and grassroots reforms for working mothers ([06:07]).

The Global Picture: The Limits of Laws Alone

• Taya Trumpic (World Bank’s Women, Business and the Law Report manager) warns:
  • "Laws on the books are not enough if you don't have the type of systems and frameworks to implement those laws..." ([12:01])
• Current Gaps:
  • Only 98 out of 190 countries have equal pay laws; just 30 have pay transparency mechanisms ([12:01]).
  • No country achieves complete equality across all areas measured ([12:01]).

Supporting and Measuring Change: Implementation Matters

• Global Averages: Despite some progress (notably in sub-Saharan Africa), only about 40% of legal implementation frameworks are in place worldwide ([14:24]).
• Example of Togo: Though legislative improvements raised its equality score, implementation mechanisms lag, showing the necessity of actionable frameworks ([14:24]).

The Broader Economic Case

• Geeta Gopinath (IMF Deputy Managing Director) argues for gender parity not just as fairness, but economic necessity:
  • Raising female labor force participation by 6 percentage points in emerging economies could boost GDP by 8% ([16:50]).
  • Population challenges in aging societies (like Japan) require more women in the workforce to maintain economic stability ([16:50]).
• On the “Man’s world”: "I would say it's no longer entirely a man's world, but it still to a great degree remains unequal..." ([19:10])

Obstacles Remaining

• Women are concentrated in informal, part-time, or lower-level jobs, even when present in organizations ([19:10]).
• Unpaid care and domestic work still fall mainly on women, making true equality elusive without deliberate policy changes ([19:10]).

Policy and Institutional Action

• IMF’s Gender Mainstreaming Strategy: Gender is now embedded in all IMF work—policy surveillance, lending, and capacity development ([21:13]).
  • Effective reforms include fiscal policy support for childcare, and conditional cash transfers to increase girls’ education ([21:13]).

Representation and Leadership

• Geeta Gopinath: Diverse leadership isn’t just about fairness; diverse institutions perform better, are more resilient, and address broader social goals like climate and education ([22:46]).
  • "Frankly, the woman is better at the job than men. So it's not just that there's a diversity aspect to it, but they're just better at it." ([22:46])
• Advice to Aspiring Women Leaders: Seek out mentorship, especially from other women who have navigated explicit and implicit biases, and always "pay it forward" ([24:18]).

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Notable Quotes & Highlights with Timestamps

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:41 | Geeta Gopinath | "It is critically important to have gender equality, and from a pure economic perspective, this makes a lot of sense." | | 03:34 | Malala Yousafzai | "The choice is ours. What will you do? What will you choose to save?" | | 03:59 | Ellen Johnson Sirleaf | "The size of your dreams must always exceed your current capacity to achieve them. If your dreams do not scare you, they are not big enough." | | 05:10 | Victoire Tomega Dogbe | "It's important to have ambition...but also to find a way to invest in their communities." | | 07:56 | Maurice Mbonyumutua | "In our industry, the part of women is huge. ... We've got over 80% of them are women." | | 09:40 | Maurice Mbonyumutua | "Being a woman in Rwanda ... has become a normal thing. ... It has become normal." | | 12:01 | Taya Trumpic | "Laws on the books are not enough if you don't have the type of systems and frameworks to implement those laws." | | 16:50 | Geeta Gopinath | "It is critically important to have gender equality. And from a pure economic perspective, this makes a lot of sense...one surefire way of boosting growth is by bringing more women into the workforce." | | 22:46 | Geeta Gopinath | "Frankly, the woman is better at the job than men. So it's not just that there's a diversity aspect to it, but they're just better at it." | | 24:18 | Geeta Gopinath | "Look out for other women...we all are standing on the shoulders of other women...you have to pay it forward." |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:09 – Introduction and International Women's Day context
• 03:14–04:13 – Quotes from iconic female leaders/activists
• 05:10–06:07 – Togo’s Prime Minister on leadership and community
• 07:15–09:40 – Rwandan entrepreneur Maurice Mbonyumutua on corporate gender equality
• 10:09–14:16 – Taya Trumpic on alarming new report findings and importance of law implementation
• 15:45–16:21 – Economic rationale for gender equality discussed
• 16:50–21:07 – IMF’s Geeta Gopinath on labor force gaps and country examples (Japan)
• 21:13–24:18 – IMF strategy, policy examples, and women in leadership
• 24:18–25:14 – Geeta Gopinath’s advice for women leaders

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Tone and Language

The podcast maintains an uplifting yet candid tone, blending pointed statistical analysis with the optimism and determination of its female leaders and narrators. The language reflects both urgency and hope, balancing tough realities (inequality persists despite progress) with stories of inspiration and actionable recommendations.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Legal reforms are essential, but not sufficient—real change comes from implementing supportive systems.
• Economic arguments for gender equality are overwhelming: closing gaps would spark unprecedented global growth.
• Some countries, like Togo and Rwanda, provide valuable examples but are still works in progress.
• Leadership diversity isn’t just fair; it creates more resilient, forward-looking institutions.
• Progress requires intentional action: mentoring, policy reform, and challenging the status quo.

For policymakers, advocates, and engaged citizens, this episode is a call to recognize where the world stands, learn from pioneers, and push for systemic change that moves beyond good intentions and written laws.

Transcript

[Narrator/Producer]

Foreign.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Hello and welcome to the development podcast from the World Bank Group. I'm Smriti Sridhar in Washington D.C. this episode, the latest in our special series about ending poverty on a livable planet, coincides with the celebrations we are seeing across the globe this month to mark International Women's Day. We'll be exploring the economics of equality and asking what it'll take to have parity for women across the board. We'll be getting the views from female leaders in business, politics and from the International Monetary Fund.

[Geeta Gopinath]

It is critically important to have gender equality, and from a pure economic perspective, this makes a lot of sense.

[Smriti Sridhar]

The Prime Minister of Togo tells us about being a role model for women across the region and the world.

[Victoire Tomega Dogbe]

So I insist on the importance of investing in oneself, but also one's community, because our local communities need our contribution to thrive.

[Smriti Sridhar]

One entrepreneur in Rwanda explains why support for women always needs to start at the grassroots level.

[Maurice Mbonyumutua]

I do see actually the gender equality issue on probably lower function, but when it comes to to management, to leadership in Rwanda, it's a non issue.

[Smriti Sridhar]

And we'll be hearing how further including women in economies could potentially double the current global growth rate over the next decade from an author of a new World bank report right here in Washington.

[Taya Trumpic]

D.C. laws on the books are not enough if you don't have the type of systems and frameworks to implement those laws. The women can't realize the rights that they have even when they have them.

[Smriti Sridhar]

That's all coming up in the development podcast from the World Bank Group. It probably hasn't escaped your attention that International Women's Day takes place every year on March 8, giving us the opportunity to assess progress towards gender and economic parity, raise awareness about discrimination, and discuss issues that are keeping women from achieving their social and economic potential. And of course, it is an occasion to celebrate women's achievements worldwide. So let's start this episode with a snapshot of some truly inspirational speakers.

[Geeta Gopinath]

It is no longer acceptable to discuss.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Women'S rights as separate from human rights. And I considered it my duty to fight for their rights. I wanted to see them in school uniforms, holding books and pens in their hands. I wanted to see their future bright. If you don't educate children, it means becomes a generation lost.

[Taya Trumpic]

I am a feminist, and when I.

[Geeta Gopinath]

Looked up the word in the dictionary that day, this is what it says. Feminist. A person who believes in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes.

[Maurice Mbonyumutua]

All of us must keep on hoping and working for a change, constantly asking ourselves if we are doing all we can to make clear our desire to live in peace and friendship with all.

[Geeta Gopinath]

Our neighbors in the world community.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I ask the people of the world, and not just the leaders, therefore, to hold us accountable and to ask us to act in your name to save this earth and to save the people of this earth. The choice is ours. What will you do? What will you choose to save?

[Geeta Gopinath]

The size of your dreams must always exceed your current capacity to achieve them. If your dreams do not scare you, they are not big enough.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Some amazing words of wisdom there from Hillary Clinton, the former United States Secretary of State, activist Malala, Nigerian writer Chimamanda Nguzi Adichie, former First lady of the United States, Eleanor Roosevelt, Prime Minister of Barbados, Mia Motley, and former President of Liberia, Ellen Sirleaf Johnson. Now, for further wisdom, let's cross over to Togo. According to the World Bank's recently published annual Women, Business and the Law Report, Togo stands out amongst Sub Saharan economies in making progress on equal opportunity legislation. Its recently enacted laws now give women roughly 77% of the rights available to men, more than any other country in the continent. Her Excellency Victoire Tomega Dogbe is the country's first female prime Minister, so let's hear what words of advice she had to share.

[Victoire Tomega Dogbe]

I think that in life it's important to have ambition. It's important to dream, but at the same time you need to feed dreams with ambition. For this you need unshakable determination. And it's also very important not to limit yourself. I really encourage women to invest in themselves, but also to find a way to invest in their communities. For example, it's great to have highly educated girls, but they cannot become great leaders if they don't understand the reality of local communities. So I encourage them to travel across their country and interact with other women and to learn from them. So I insist on the importance of investing in oneself, but also one's community, because our local communities need our contribution to thrive.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Thank you to Her Excellency for joining us. The often quoted phrase it's lonely at the top takes on additional meaning when applied to many women in positions of power, especially if you're a female political leader in some parts of the world where women sometimes represent fewer than 2% of elected politicians. But that's not the case in Rwanda, a country that is proud to have over 60% of seats in parliament occupied by women. In addition to having the highest percentage of women in parliament, Rwanda also leads the way in introducing reforms to encourage female entrepreneurship and support parenthood. According to the women Business in the law report. But do these statistics reflect life in Rwanda for women looking to make it in the world of business? Our producer Sarah TreeNor spoke to one entrepreneur to find out.

[Narrator/Producer]

The sounds of children singing at a trilingual nursery in Kigali, Rwanda. The nursery is attached to a garment factory, and the children of the factory's workers attend for free. It's the brainchild of one entrepreneur putting women's empowerment at the heart of her business model.

[Maurice Mbonyumutua]

So my name is Maurice Mbonyumutua. So I've been in this business for the last 23 years, working mainly with factories in China and Southeast Asia for major retailers in Europe. I just launched also a new project which is a brand called Asanti, a new Pan African brand that we hope will be a catalyst for the fashion, garment and textile industry. So, yeah, that's it. A little bit about me.

[Narrator/Producer]

I asked Maryse how important women are for the success of her company and the broader industry. From the factory floor to the boardroom.

[Maurice Mbonyumutua]

In our industry, the part of women is huge. It's an industry that traditionally employs a lot of women. For example, in our location, on our sites, on our four sites in Rwanda, where we now have close to 5,000 workers, we've got over 80% of them are women. The only criteria to work to start in our factory, you need to be random and over 18, which means that we are attracting quite a lot of labor which was previously excluded from the labor market.

[Narrator/Producer]

And what kind of policies has she put in place to support female employees?

[Maurice Mbonyumutua]

So first of all, we do have a free lunch for all the workers. Then we have set up a nursery since 2020. It's a pilot project for the moment, but where we welcome free of charge, completely free of charge, children of the factory workers. A breastfeeding program we introduced also free sanitary pads for women because we realized after one year we started working. One of the main reason for absenteeism was also women not having access to hygienic products. And they will feel embarrassed to come to work. Our human resource manager as a woman, the corporate social responsibility Pink Ubuntu program as well as also a woman. The fact that ourselves women, mothers, we do have probably a level of understanding and empathy.

[Narrator/Producer]

Does she think that there are still barriers to becoming a successful woman in business in Rwanda?

[Maurice Mbonyumutua]

Being a woman in Rwanda, what I have noticed has become a non problem or a non question. It has become a normal thing. I do see actually the gender equality issue on probably lower function. But when it comes to, to management, to leadership in Rwanda today. Yeah. It's a non issue. It's normal. It has become normal.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Thank you to Marisa and to Sarah. So now we've heard from two countries that are doing well in terms of implementing reforms tracked by the World Bank's Women Business and the Law Report. But what about the broader global outlook? How is the world doing overall? And what are the most persistent stumbling blocks hampering the achievement of greater equality here? The report offers some sobering findings around legal rights and economic earnings. According to the report, the workplace gap in terms of legal rights is not just big, it's bigger than previously thought. In fact, the inclusion of two new indicators has helped reveal that women Enjoy less than 2/3 of the legal rights available to men, far lower than the three quarters previously estimated. Furthermore, women today earn just 77 cents for every dollar earned by men. And progress towards enshrining stronger equality legislation remains patchy at best. These disparities have an outsized impact on the entire global economy, with the report estimating that by closing the gender gap in employment and entrepreneurship, global gross domestic product could increase by more than 20%. And eliminating the gender gap would essentially double the current global growth rate over the next decade. Decade. So what's stopping progress toward making these social and economic improvements? Well, to find out, I spoke to Taya Trumpic, the World Bank's manager for the Women Business and the Law Report. She joined me here in Washington, D.C. taya, thank you so much for coming into the studio for us today. The headlines from this year's Women Business and the Law Report are quite stark and in many ways really not what we'd hope to hear. Right. It says in the report that the global gender gap in terms of economic opportunities for women is significantly wider than previously thought. Talk us through some of these big picture findings.

[Taya Trumpic]

Yeah, sure. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And it's true, the global gap in gender, especially in gender legal equality, is wider than we previously thought. This report is really different than the previous ones. We're adding new measures. We are looking at it in a different way. We previously looked at eight different indicators that follow women's working life. So issues like mobility, workplace, what happens when they get married, have children, open businesses, all the way to retirement. But we have been learning that there's more to it than this. And this is why some of the outcomes have not been following the change in laws that we've been seeing. And so there are two new indicators we're adding this year on women's safety and on access to childcare. And because we're measuring different things, the results are different. And so it's not necessarily that things have gotten worse, but we just realize now that the reality is much worse than we previously thought. So whereas previously our findings were showing that women had three quarters of the legal rights of men, we now find that it's actually 2/3. But the other thing that we really are bringing to the table this year is that laws on the books are not enough if you don't have this type of systems and frameworks to implement those laws, that women can't realize the rights that they have even when they have them. So I can give you an example of that. For example, equal pay, we hear all the time that the gender wage gap exists in all countries, no matter how developed they are, no matter how good their laws are. And we had previously countries that we measure that have equal pay legislation on the books, but without certain mechanisms like pay transparency or things that really empower women to understand where they stand and be able to take this forward, we have the reality that women still make only 77 cents on the dollar. And without enforcing some of these mechanisms, we won't move forward. So according to our data, now only 98 countries out of 190, so about half have the laws on the books. So there's a lot of room to work on the laws as well. But out of Those, only about 30 have pay transparency mechanisms in place. So you might have a law in the books that say you're guaranteed equal pay, but how can you prove it if you don't know what others are making? Countries are losing out by leaving half of their population on the sideline. And one of the shocking facts we have now is that we don't have one country that has equality on the books in the areas that we're measuring.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Are there any parts of the world you would say have made significant improvements according to your findings? And why would you say so?

[Taya Trumpic]

Yeah, well, we are seeing progress, especially in sub Saharan African countries. Of course, those are the ones that had lower scores, and so there was more for them to do. But we have seen the sustained effort in several countries. Rwanda, Togo, Sierra Leone, they've been reforming over several years. And one of the. We know that they have read our report and they've looked at this data and they've worked with the World bank, with other organizations to really address this issue. For example, I can talk about Togo, which has been reforming for several years. This year, according to our previous measurements, they're the country that has the highest score in Africa almost at 100. But when we now add these new indicators in safety and childcare, their score goes down to about 77, which is still very good. But when we look at the implementing mechanisms, they have about 30% of the measures that should be in place to enforce those laws. So while many countries have been focusing on changing laws, there's a lot more room to focus on these systems that really need to be there to implement the laws. And when we look at globally, only 40% of these frameworks are in place to implement the laws on the books.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Now, Tea, it might seem very obvious, but explain to us why it's important for economies that women have equal access to opportunities and legal rights. Why does it matter for economic development?

[Taya Trumpic]

Well, you know, women make up 50% of the world population and yet they're not equally represented in the workforce. Today, about 50% of women are in the labor force, compared to 75% of men. And so if you think of just the numbers game here, countries that want to grow, that want to increase their productivity, that want to have more businesses are leaving out a significant portion of their population that could be contributing. And we know that when women work or when they start businesses, when they have money, they have more power, they have louder voices, they make better choices not only for themselves, but for their families, for future generations, and for their communities.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Thanks so much, Taya. So we've heard from some famous names, from women leading the way in politics and business, and also about the gap that still remains between men and women in terms of rights and pay. But let's hear more about how international institutions are supporting women's rights and inclusion. I had the pleasure of sitting down here in the studio with Geeta Gopinath, the first Deputy Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund.

[Geeta Gopinath]

Sri. Firstly, it's a real pleasure to join you. It is critically important to have gender equality. And from pure economic perspective, this makes a lot of sense. We are staring at a growth projection which is one of the weakest we've seen in several decades. So we're looking at medium term growth of around 3% or so. So as countries, we need to find ways of boosting growth and one surefire way of doing that is by bringing more women into the workforce. So if you look at labor force participation rates of women right now, that's 47%. For men, that number is 72%. So there is a big gap in terms of labor force participation between men and women. And therefore, just a simple arithmetic of bringing more women into the labor force can do Wonders for growth. So if I were to give you a statistic, if you think of emerging market and developing economies, if they can increase their labor force participation rates by around 6 percentage points, then they can raise their GDP by about 8% over the next few years. These are sizable gains and absolutely critical. It's also very important to have women participating in society because we are facing aging societies. There are countries where the population is shrinking. I can give you the example, for instance, of Japan. And one of the big initiatives that was part of Abenomics that happened was to encourage women's labor force participation. So despite the fact that that population as a whole has been shrinking in Japan since the 1990s, the labor force as a whole has stayed relatively stable because over the last 10 years, women's labor force participation went up by around 11 percentage points. So that can be done, and that's absolutely critical. And it's not just the participation, but it's important to have a well educated, healthy workforce. And that requires being a lot more attention to women's health and education than what's being done right now.

[Smriti Sridhar]

So the old saying goes, it's a man's world. Where do you think we stand with that in 2024 and particularly in the developing world?

[Geeta Gopinath]

I would say it's no longer entirely a man's world, but it still to a great degree remains unequal. Just again, in terms of labor force participation, the fact that only 47% of women participate in the workforce, while 72% of the men do, that is a big gap. And if you look ahead and you try to see what it will take to close those gaps, it's going to take a very long time and it's not going to happen automatically. You really need concerted policy actions to make that happen. Also, if you look at what kinds of jobs women do, women tend to be more in informal jobs, in more part time jobs. So the nature of the job, it's not just that they participate or not in the workforce, but the nature of the job also looks very different. And we looked at central banks around the world to see how many women were there in leadership positions as economists, as managers and so on. And what we see in the group of advanced economies, central banks, is that while there are women working in the central bank, the vast majority of them are working more in HR and administrative roles as opposed to as economists or managers. So again, it's not just the labor force participation, but it's the nature of that participation that still looks very different. And these gaps that I'M pointing to are a result of unequal access to opportunities for women. And if you look at the gender gaps, when it comes to health outcomes, when it comes to education outcomes, those are white. And it remains the case that women do a whole lot more in terms of childcare, in terms of domestic chores than men do. And as long as those imbalances remain, it's going to be very hard to close those gaps. But, you know, again, real policy action is required to solve this problem.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Can you talk to me a little bit about the IMF strategy on gender, specifically on gender mainstreaming?

[Geeta Gopinath]

So the IMF launched its gender mainstreaming strategy in 2022. What does that mean? That basically means that we are now putting gender as an important ingredient in all of our three streams of work that we do, which is in surveillance, in lending, and in capacity development. So, for example, if you look at country engagement, for about a quarter of the countries that we deal with, we are directly engaged in terms of policy advice on how to close the gender gaps. And we focus on our areas of expertise, which is, for example, in terms of fiscal policy advice. Right. Governments and budgets, and how to make sure that the fiscal choices that you're making are also helping women. As an example, what we know very well in terms of a particular expenditure that governments can do is in terms of providing childcare support, that is very helpful in bringing women into the workforce. What we also find very helpful is when you have conditional cash transfers to households that require them to keep their girl child in schools. Right. That ensures education. So those kinds of very concrete steps can help close these gaps. And this is what we are helping countries with.

[Smriti Sridhar]

And why is it important to make sure that women are well represented in leadership roles to help close the gap further?

[Geeta Gopinath]

Firstly, I think as a society, we need to use the diversity of the talent that we have for several leadership positions. Frankly, the woman is better at the job than men. So it's not just that there's a diversity aspect to it, but they're just better at it. They will be more qualified, qualified, have better outcomes at it. And there are plenty of studies that can point to that. We also know from a lot of research that having a much more diverse leadership pool is great for bringing in different viewpoints. For instance, in terms of the kinds of goals you want as a company or as a nation. Right. So when women, for instance, get into leadership positions, there's a lot more focus. For instance, put on climate goals, on education for children, on healthcare for children. These have to be essential parts of the conversation that get lost when women are not in leadership positions. Similarly, financial inclusion for women requires women in leadership positions. We've done research of multiple kinds where we've looked at women's representation on boards of financial companies and found that having a more diverse pool helps that financial company be more resilient, have greater stability. So there are many pluses to it.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Now, Geetha, you were the IMF's first female chief economist. You're now first deputy managing director of the IMF. What would be your advice to fellow women leaders and those that are aspiring to be leaders?

[Geeta Gopinath]

Just reflecting on what I've gone through is to actually seek out advice from others and not just wait for it to come to you. What's particularly valuable would be speaking to other senior women because many of them have experienced the same explicit or implicit biases that you are likely facing at this time. So getting advice from them would be very valuable. Look out for other women we all are standing on the shoulders of other women. For me personally, Christine Lagarde hired me as chief economist. Kristalina Georgieva hired me as the first deputy managing director. I think I owe it to the previous women for where I am today. So you have to pay it forward. And it can be in small things, which is just sending a compliment to a female colleague who you think is doing something really nice. Just a kind gesture would be a place to start.

[Smriti Sridhar]

Thank you so much, Geeta, for coming into the studio. Please do join us next month when we'll be exploring how economics can help preserve the world's forests. Do check out our survey in the meantime. And thanks for listening to the development podcast from the World Bank Group. We'll see you again soon.