The Six Billion Dollar Gold Scam: 9. The exit strategy

Summary

World of Secrets: The Six Billion Dollar Gold Scam – Episode 9: The Exit Strategy

Hosted by Suzanne Wilton | Released April 21, 2025

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Introduction

In the gripping ninth episode of BBC’s World of Secrets titled "The Exit Strategy," host Suzanne Wilton delves into the enigmatic disappearance of Michael Antonio De Guzman, the chief geologist behind the infamous Bre-X gold scam. This episode navigates through the labyrinth of deception, surveillance, and unanswered questions that have shrouded the largest gold fraud in history.

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Surveillance Operations and De Guzman’s Last Days

The episode opens with an exploration of the surveillance efforts led by Richard Jacobson, a seasoned private detective with a background as an ex-CIA operative.

Richard Jacobson [07:39]: "Through my contacts, we were able to put a couple people on the flight from Vancouver to Hong Kong and monitor what was going on."

Jacobson was tasked by Freeport to monitor De Guzman's movements meticulously, especially during the critical period leading up to his reported death. The surveillance captured De Guzman and his Filipino colleagues flying to a Prospectors convention in Toronto, but suspiciously, only De Guzman returned to Indonesia promptly after the event.

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The Mysterious Helicopter Disappearance

A pivotal moment in the investigation is De Guzman's disappearance from a helicopter en route to the Bre-X mining site in Busang, Indonesia. The episode meticulously examines the circumstances surrounding this event.

Jeannie de Guzman [04:32]: "Mike already told me not to be shocked if anything happened to him. Don't show up. I must be quiet."

Jeannie, De Guzman’s wife, recounts the day her husband vanished, highlighting his paranoia and the valuable items he carried, including cash and precious jewelry. De Guzman's last known actions included making multiple phone calls and expressing fears of being followed, which now appear to be rooted in reality.

Richard Jacobson shares his astonishment upon learning of De Guzman's disappearance, revealing gaps in the surveillance operations that could have potentially uncovered the truth had they been maintained longer.

Richard Jacobson [10:37]: "I felt that my job was finished and that, you know, we had done all the work... So I took a weekend off and I went to Lombok for the weekend."

Upon his return, Jacobson was informed by his superior about De Guzman's sudden disappearance, prompting a deeper investigation into the helicopter flight.

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The Enigmatic Body Found in the Jungle

One of the most perplexing aspects discussed is the discovery of a body in the dense Indonesian jungle, which authorities identified as De Guzman. However, discrepancies emerged when Jeannie revealed that De Guzman had false teeth—a detail unknown to most.

Jeannie de Guzman [18:45]: "The decayed corpse was unrecognizable, but the teeth were intact. Mike didn't have teeth. His teeth were all false."

This revelation casts doubt on the identification of the body, suggesting it may not have been De Guzman after all. Richard Jacobson examines the possibility that the body found was part of an elaborate plan to fake De Guzman's death.

Richard Jacobson [14:31]: "If there was a body on that flight, when did it get dropped? And more importantly, where did De Guzman go?"

The lack of clear evidence and the rapid identification of the body raise suspicions about the true fate of De Guzman.

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Jeannie de Guzman's Mysterious Claims

Jeannie de Guzman introduced a surprising twist by asserting that Michael had sent her money months after his supposed death, indicating he was still alive.

Jeannie de Guzman [27:00]: "Mike rang me up. He's in Copacabana down in South America and sent me some money and everything's fine."

Despite over two transfers, Jeannie never provided concrete proof of these transactions, leaving investigators skeptical but intrigued.

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Michael De Guzman Jr.'s Testimony

Adding another layer to the mystery, Michael De Guzman Jr., the son of the missing geologist, claims sightings of his father years after his reported death.

Michael De Guzman Jr. [29:08]: "He has a friend of mine who was having lunch in the Philippines... All these geos just gave him a standing ovation for the scam he pulled off. Faking his death, the whole thing."

These accounts, though unverified, fuel speculation that De Guzman may have successfully evaded capture and is living under the radar, possibly in the Cayman Islands.

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Unanswered Questions and Legacy

The episode concludes by highlighting the numerous unresolved questions surrounding De Guzman's disappearance:

• Who was the Indonesian Air Force pilot involved?
• What was the nature of the cargo picked up in San Marinda?
• Did Rudi Vega, a fellow metallurgist, play a covert role in the disappearance?

Jacobson emphasizes the lack of accountability and the overarching mystery that continues to envelop the Bre-X scandal.

Richard Jacobson [20:35]: "He would need to have somebody in the Indonesian government... the most likely escape plan from my perspective would have been by sea. No detection."

The legacy of the $6 billion gold scam remains a testament to the lengths individuals will go to manipulate markets and deceive stakeholders, leaving a trail of financial ruin and personal tragedy in its wake.

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Conclusion

Episode nine of World of Secrets masterfully unravels the complex web of deceit surrounding Michael De Guzman's disappearance. Through compelling interviews, meticulous investigation, and thought-provoking theories, Suzanne Wilton leaves listeners with a haunting question: Did De Guzman truly perish in the jungle, or is he still out there, evading justice and continuing his enigmatic existence? This episode not only concludes the season but also cements the Bre-X scandal as one of the most audacious frauds in history, with its full truth still hidden within the dense jungles of Indonesia and the shadows of unanswered questions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jeannie de Guzman [04:32]: "I need to return it to the company."

• Richard Jacobson [14:31]: "If there was a body on that flight... where did De Guzman go?"

• Michael De Guzman Jr. [29:08]: "He has a buddy of mine... the scam he pulled off. Faking his death, the whole thing."

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Production Credits:

Produced by BBC Scotland Productions for the BBC World Service and CBC. Lead producer Kate Bissell, with contributions from Anna Miles, Mark Rickards, and others. Directed by Arif Noorani.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture the essence and key points of the episode without including advertisements or non-content segments.

Transcript

[Suzanne Wilton]

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[Suzanne Wilton]

O.Com from the BBC's investigations podcast, World of Secrets, here's the ninth episode of our guest season, the $6 billion Gold Scam. From the BBC World Service and CBC, over to Suzanne Wilton. First, a warning. This episode contains difficult subject matter, including references to suicide and death. Simon Szambiering was scrolling through his social media messages when an invitation to connect stopped him in his tracks.

[Richard Jacobson]

This guy. Contact me in Lincoln Din Guzman. Invite me.

[Suzanne Wilton]

What?

[Richard Jacobson]

I'm not.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Show me.

[Mansur Geiger]

Show me.

[Suzanne Wilton]

That's why somebody named Guzman invited you to connect on LinkedIn.

[Richard Jacobson]

I tried to find out. Yeah.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Sembearing had been Director General of the Indonesian Mining Department, a high profile position during BRE X. He was involved in the negotiation of licenses with foreign mining companies. He'd been in several BRE X meetings with De Guzman. That was the one. Can we click on it? Can I click?

[Richard Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Okay. Sembearing showed me the invite that had dropped into his inbox from a geologist based in Malaysia called Michael Antonio De Guzman. Michael de Guzman, Technical analyst in Malaysia. Hmm. Michael De Guzman's face was distinctive. He had a strong protruding lower jaw coupled with a wide chin. Unmistakable features.

[Richard Jacobson]

Okay, where's the original one?

[Suzanne Wilton]

Simon Szembiring pulls out an old photo of De Guzman to compare to the profile photo on LinkedIn. This one. Do you think they look similar?

[Richard Jacobson]

I think this is plastic surgery. He looks young, the Guzman? Older. But you cannot lie about this. You cannot change your.

[Suzanne Wilton]

It says Mike is a geologist, skilled in geological exploration. Field work such as mapping, sampling, drilling and core logging. Have been involved in several exploration projects. Did you connect?

[Mansur Geiger]

Did you accept no, not yet.

[Richard Jacobson]

But what I'm saying is. Looks like Spy. Who?

[Mansur Geiger]

Who is this guy?

[Suzanne Wilton]

After speaking with Simon Sembering, I wasted no time messaging the profile he'd shown me. Could this be the Michael de Guzman? I'm Suzanne Wilton from the BBC World Service and CBC. This is the $6 billion gold scam. A story about the lengths people will go to in pursuit of getting r. This is the final episode. Episode nine, the Exit Strategy. On de Guzman's last trip, his wife Jeannie witnessed him carrying a suitcase filled with cash.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

From Singapore. Mike brought a lot of money, you know. So when Mike returned from Canada, there were 350,000 Canadian dollars. Mike also had a diamond ring, Rolex wrist watch and US Dollars. I said, pa, leave the money when you fly. He replied, I can't, Ma, because this is the office's money. All the money was in a suitcase. He said, I need to return it to the company.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Carrying so many valuables with him would have been enough to make anyone feel paranoid.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

When Mike was about to leave for Canada, he was saying, ma, why do I feel like I'm being followed by someone?

[Suzanne Wilton]

He phoned Genie several times while he was waiting for his helicopter to reportedly refuel at Samarinda Airport. And his final phone call to Jeanne was as the helicopter was about to take flight.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

I can hear the sound of the helicopter blades. I'm boarding first. Okay, Ma. Take care of Big Boy. Take care of Paula.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Big Boy and Paula were his kids with Genie. In the event of anything going wrong, De Guzman had left clear instructions for Genie.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

Mike already told me not to be shocked if anything happened to him. Don't show up. I must be quiet. Whatever his condition, Mike asked me not to go public. Mike told me, ma, if anything happens to me, please don't say anything. Bring our Big Boy. That's what Mike called Mike Jr. Bring Paula and hide whatever news about me, whatever my situation is, don't come to find me and don't talk.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Around this time, De Guzman apparently rang his mother and said, pray for me, Mama. They want to kill me. It turns out de Guzman wasn't being paranoid. He was being watched, but not for the reasons he had feared.

[Richard Jacobson]

I was asked if I could put together a surveillance program on Deguzman. Because de Guzman and his three Philippine colleagues. They flew to Toronto for that Prospectors convention.

[Suzanne Wilton]

This is Richard Jacobs, a hugely experienced private detective. He was put in charge of watching de Guzman's every move. Jacobson was working for Freeport. They wanted to make sure de Guzman went straight back to Busang after the convention in Toronto. As an ex CIA operative, one thing Jacobson knew how to do was set up a surveillance operation.

[Richard Jacobson]

My government work, I've seen coups and evacuations, but I've never seen something as intriguing as this.

[Suzanne Wilton]

This is the first time Richard has shared the details of the operation. The surveillance followed a really crucial period of time, those last days before De Guzman's fall from the helicopter. As we know, while John Felderhoff was receiving the Prospector of the Year award at Annual Prospectors and Developers association convention in Toronto, De Guzman and his Filipino team were being ordered to fly back to Busang.

[Richard Jacobson]

Through my contacts, we were able to put a couple people on the flight from Vancouver to Hong Kong and monitor what was going on. And there were some arguments on the flight.

[Suzanne Wilton]

The Filipino geologists who accompanied De Guzman were Cesar Puzvos, Jerry Allo, and one other Filipino geologist.

[Richard Jacobson]

The couple people we had in business class that was working with us, they couldn't monitor all the conversations and that. But one of the arguments that we did hear them having was the fact that Du Guzman had convertible shares. In other words, he could sell them the minute he landed in Hong Kong. But the other Filipinos didn't have convertible shares. They had to work so long for the company before they could convert their shares. Three, four Filipinos said, you know, we might be going to jail and we can't convert our shares in that. So I think they knew at that point it was up. By the time they got to Hong Kong, they decided it wasn't worth. Wasn't worth it for them to go back to Jakarta and face whatever fate they would have to face there. They booked their flights right back to. To Manila. They didn't go back to Jakarta with De Guzman. He went back by himself.

[Suzanne Wilton]

We know De Guzman did not travel directly from Hong Kong to Jakarta. Instead, he traveled to Singapore, where he stopped off for a medical checkup.

[Richard Jacobson]

We had surveillance on him and quite frankly, we should have kept it on him a little bit longer. We surveilled him to the Melia Hotel, where he stayed that night, back to the airport, and we saw him get on the plane to Balacpapan, and we didn't surveil him anymore after that.

[Suzanne Wilton]

If only they'd kept eyes on De Guzman, then we would know for sure what actually happened to him.

[Richard Jacobson]

I felt that my job was finished and that, you know, we had done all the work all the way from Toronto back to Jakarta. So I took a weekend off and I went to Lombok for the Weekend. And then I get this call saying, return to Jakarta immediately. And that's when I found out for the first time that he had disappeared from the helicopter.

[Suzanne Wilton]

What was your reaction?

[Richard Jacobson]

I mean, I was stunned. I was shocked. I mean, at that point, when I got on the airplane to go back to Jakarta, I didn't know what they were. They didn't tell me why.

[Suzanne Wilton]

When did you find out?

[Richard Jacobson]

When I landed, my boss at Freeport explained to me what happened then. He asked me to put together a program to interrogate the crew chief of the helicopter and the pilot, which was very interesting because the pilot that day was not the normal pilot was an Indonesian Air Force pilot, which is very unusual. The normal pilot claimed he was sick that day. And so he. So why would you have an Indonesian Air Force pilot? And the flight normally goes straight from Balakpap onto the mine site. It stopped in San Marinda. And I read stories that it dropped a colleague of his off in San Marinda.

[Suzanne Wilton]

You'll remember that this was Rudy Vega, the man who had told investigators it was his opinion that de Guzman had tried to take his own life the night before the flight. Just like the other Filipino geologists, Vega had shares in BRE X. But not ones he could cash in quickly. If he'd been involved in the salting of samples, he must have known that if de Guzman got to his meeting at Busang. The whole scam would have been revealed. As one of the last people to see de Guzman. Before he seemingly fell from the helicopter, could Vega have had some knowledge of what was about to happen? Surveillance may have been halted, but Jacobson had another opportunity to find out the truth. The crew chief traveling with de Guzman was brought in for questioning.

[Richard Jacobson]

And we couldn't interrogate the pilot because he was an active duty military officer. But the crew chief of the helicopter was Filipino. And so we interrogated him and. Very strange, he said. We picked up some cargo on San Marinda. Now, he claimed it was an ambulance looking like a vehicle in that. But he said it looked like an ambulance. And we thought that was very unusual because, I mean, he's the crew chief. He's the one that puts the cargo into the. It's a small helicopter. It was just an Alouette helicopter. And he's the one that's supposed to load any cargo. Right. We didn't believe him at first. We also confirmed it with the flight tower.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Ah, okay. So this was information that was validated as well.

[Richard Jacobson]

It was validated, yeah. And again, I've read that he had a companion with him that he dropped off in San Marinda. But the crew chief never told us that. He said, we stopped in San Marinda and we picked up some cargo. And San Marinda was never on that chopper's flight plan. Normally it was Balik Papa and straight to Busan. But that day they stopped in San Marinda and picked up some cargo.

[Suzanne Wilton]

What do you think this cargo was?

[Richard Jacobson]

I think it was a body.

[Suzanne Wilton]

What?

[Richard Jacobson]

They loaded it right from the ambulance looking vehicle into the helicopter. But we never were able to confirm it was a body.

[Suzanne Wilton]

A body? Could de Guzman have taken a body on board the helicopter? The last piece of his plan to fake his own death?

[Richard Jacobson]

There's a medical university in San Marinda. And we went and checked the morgue and we asked them, did anybody come in here and take a body or buy a body? And that. And their answer was, oh, people come here all the time to get bodies, you know, for the students and cadavers and that. And so we said, you don't remember anything about these last three days, somebody coming in and no, a lot of people came in here again, which was a bit suspicious. I mean, you don't just walk out of, you know, a morgue with a body and nobody knows where you're taking it and who you are.

[Suzanne Wilton]

If there was a body on that flight, when did it get dropped? And more importantly, where did de Guzman go? What happened in those last moments on that helicopter? This is what Richard Jacobson wanted to find out from the crew chief who was on board.

[Richard Jacobson]

He remembered everything in excruciating detail. He said that Michael de Guzman was writing letters. Now, you've been on a helicopter before, it's hard to write a letter on. But he so much detail that he even said, I saw him put registered stamps on the letters. He knew they were registered stamps. That's a pretty detail. And then he said he wrote about four or five letters. We don't know who. He didn't tell us, you know, he couldn't see who they were addressed to in that. And he put them in his carry on bag. And then he took off his Rolex watch. And then he took off his. He wore a lot of gold. And so then he took off his gold necklace and he's telling us everything in excruciating detail, yet he never saw him get up and jump out of the helicopter. We said, excuse me, the helicopter is moving at very high speed. You didn't see him get up and open the door? Nope, never saw it. His story really fell apart at that point. I mean, it's a small helicopter. You would think you would notice somebody standing up and trying to open the door against the wind and jumping out. I'm not sure he ever got on that helicopter. And that's where we dropped the ball, because we only surveilled him when he got on the plane in Jakarta to Balak pop on him. But the fact that that pilot was not the real pilot, that he was an Indonesian Air Force officer, somebody had to direct him to be on that private helicopter.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Like many others, Jacobsen also questioned how de Guzman's body was found so quickly in the thick jungle.

[Richard Jacobson]

The fact that they even found a body is a miracle. I mean, it's rainforest. If you fly over from Bali Papa to where Busang was, it's triple canopy jungle. And I just was very suspicious when they found the body. How do you find a body in triple canopy jungle unless you know where to look for it?

[Suzanne Wilton]

Jennifer Wells book details that pilot allegedly noted the GPS coordinates at that moment that the door opened.

[Richard Jacobson]

See, don't you find that suspicious? The crew chief doesn't remember him even jumping out of the chopper. So, I mean, all of a sudden the pilot noted the gps, who knows? That's when he jumped out of the helicopter. They just knew where to throw the body or dump the body.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Our investigation keeps coming back to that body. There was something that de Guzman's wife Jeannie said during our interview, which hadn't got focused on before. And it could be crucial.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

When the decayed corpse was found, it was unrecognizable, but the teeth were intact. Mike didn't have teeth. His teeth were all false.

[Suzanne Wilton]

This is de Guzman's Indonesian wife, Jeannie.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

The only person who knew about his false teeth was me and his family in the Philippines. Maybe the other wives would not know about it because Mike was embarrassed of it. And Mike only met them recently. When he's with me, when he's about to eat, he puts his teeth in a tissue, both upper and lower teeth. He didn't have any.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Andrew Neal from Freeport remembers the trouble surrounding the disclosure of de Guzman's dental records. If those dental records showed Deguzmin had no teeth, then that would have meant the body found on the jungle floor could not be him.

[Mansur Geiger]

They were hounding the dentist in the Philippines, and he says, I can't release any results yet because I'm waiting on some paperwork from the family. He was waiting to get paid. Then he would say, yeah, these are the dental records of de Guzman. Yeah, you know, money talks in this country and, you know, and just about anything can be bought here. There was a delay because they kept on saying, well, we're going to prove it through dental records.

[Suzanne Wilton]

The dental records were never released by the family and the dentist has since died. If this was all a plan by de Guzman to fake his own death, how did he pull it all together? Richard Jacobson?

[Richard Jacobson]

He would need to have somebody in the Indonesian government. Again, we don't know who that pilot was. We don't know who paid that pilot to be there that day. We don't know why. The other pilot, I mean, he claimed he wasn't feeling well that day. But you cancel the flight then. I mean, you don't go out and get an Indonesian Air Force pilot to fly your helicopter. He had to have paid some people. I mean, assuming he did have an escape plan, I think the most likely escape plan from my perspective would have been by sea. No detection.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Have you ever told this story to anyone?

[Richard Jacobson]

Only friends. I mean, I've never talked about Bre X in that.

[Suzanne Wilton]

I mean, these details, though. There's been many books written about Briex and I have never seen these details.

[Richard Jacobson]

Yeah, it's not my nature to seek out people in, you know, especially the media to talk about this. I know the resources are available to find out if he's still alive or not, but I mean, I'm just surprised that nobody's really put an effort into it.

[Suzanne Wilton]

One of the brothers said he wanted to just let sleeping dogs lie. About a year and a half after de Guzman's reported death, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police investigating Briax, flew Jacobson over from Jakarta to Manila for an interview.

[Richard Jacobson]

I found it very strange. They never asked me about what you're asking me about the surveillance we did or the interrogation of the, you know. The meeting lasted two hours and I expected they would have asked a lot deeper questions, but they were more interested in focusing on the money trail and what happened to his $15 million in share.

[Suzanne Wilton]

De Guzman was never a fugitive. The Indonesians never issued a red notice to the international police organization Interpol. If he'd escaped, he was free to cross borders and continents via land, sea and air.

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[Mansur Geiger]

I know you've spoken to Jenny. I rang her last night. I'm very close to Jenny.

[Suzanne Wilton]

How are you? How do you know her?

[Mansur Geiger]

She comes from Palankaraya.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Kalimantan. Geologist Mansur Geiger, who you heard from in the last episode, comforted Jeannie de Guzman after she heard of her husband's reported death.

[Mansur Geiger]

When the news came out that Mike had fallen from the helicopter, of course, she was totally distraught. Myself and my colleague, more because he knew her better. Yeah, we kind of tried to look after her in Palankaraya, and she was in India and so, yeah, we would take her out to lunch and try and entertain her and cheer her up. The kids were still really small.

[Suzanne Wilton]

While we were talking, Mansur Geiger shared a surprising revelation.

[Mansur Geiger]

She showed up at the office one day and she said, oh, guess what? Mike rang me up. He's in Coca Cabana down in South America and sent me some money and everything's fine.

[Suzanne Wilton]

What did you think? Did you believe her?

[Mansur Geiger]

Yes.

[Suzanne Wilton]

In 2005, Jakarta journalist John Macbeth and his friend from Barrick, Tim Scott, were having lunch with Jeannie de Guzman when she again mentioned contact with her supposedly Dead husband, Michael de Guzman.

[Mansur Geiger]

We were sitting there at lunch at the Dharmawangsa Hotel, I remember, and suddenly in the middle of the lunch, she dropped this bombshell on us that Michael de Guzman had sent her $250,000 from somewhere.

[Suzanne Wilton]

According to Jeannie, this transfer happened around six weeks after De Guzman reportedly jumped from the helicopter.

[Mansur Geiger]

He had called the maid and told her to tell Jenny to look in her bank account. I remember Scott and I looked at each other. Well, I mean, we were eyebrows raised, but we didn't want to sort of do too much, go too much further with it. And I remember later I arranged to interview Jeanne here in this house right there. And she sort of elaborated on it all. I think she's pretty convinced he was alive. She said the maid knew his voice, knew Michael's voice, and he was laughing. And she sort of resigned to the fact that probably she wouldn't see him again.

[Suzanne Wilton]

A few months after the first transfer, Jeannie told Macbeth she received another one, Citibank.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

One of the Citibank staff knew me and told me that the transaction came from Citibank Brazil. And there's also Mike's signature. There's Mike's signature. It's not from another person. It's Mike's signature.

[Mansur Geiger]

It was thought that he was in Brazil. The second phone call that the mate got, he said he was in Brazil. That second transfer of $25,000 took place on February 14th.

[Suzanne Wilton]

You know what the other significance is of February 14th, de Guzman's birthday?

[Richard Jacobson]

Oh.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Oh.

[Mansur Geiger]

Oh, well, yes. Oh, okay.

[Suzanne Wilton]

We asked Jeannie for proof of these alleged money transfers, but she never sent them. If de Guzman did make it to Brazil six weeks after he reportedly jumped, where was he holed up prior to landing in South America? Businessman Warren Irwin thinks he knows.

[Michael de Guzman Jr.]

I have a buddy of mine who was having lunch in the Philippines About a week or two after Mike de Guzman allegedly fell from the helicopter. He was having lunch with a bunch of geologists, and this Filipino guy comes in and is leaving. And they all stood up, gave him a standing ovation, clapped his hands. Guy looked at them, smiled, went on his way. My buddy goes, who's that? He goes, well, that was Mike de Guzman. Oh, all these geos just gave him a standing ovation for the scam he pulled off. Faking his death, the whole thing. And he left. Left the restaurant.

[Suzanne Wilton]

You don't think he would have surfaced by now?

[Michael de Guzman Jr.]

He has a friend of mine knows a guy who's had lunch with him within the last few years. Mike has had plastic surgery and that my. My buddy states this is 100% legit. And my other close friend saw him over lunch this recently happened, I think probably five years ago, this other story happened.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Clearly, you believe he's alive.

[Michael de Guzman Jr.]

Of course he is. He's alive.

[Mansur Geiger]

Come on.

[Suzanne Wilton]

So how do you think he managed to pull that off?

[Michael de Guzman Jr.]

Tossed a dead body out?

[Suzanne Wilton]

If you'd faked your own death, would you really be dining at a hotel restaurant so soon after I contacted the guy who Warren Irwin says saw de Guzman to check out his story, he related the same sequence of events, saying it was unmistakably De Guzman, even down to the way he parted his hair. As I was wrapping up my interview with Mansur Geiger, the man who, in his own words, is very close to Jeannie de Guzman's wife, he caught a hold of my arm and whispered, you do know that de Guzman is still alive, don't you? He's in the Cayman Islands. Mansa refused to confirm how he knew this, but Andrew Neal, the metallurgist from Freeport, had also heard Geiger's claim.

[Mansur Geiger]

All I can do is repeat. What he told me was that for a while he was in Copacabana and now he's in the Cayman Islands.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Could he really be in the Cayman Islands? And remember that LinkedIn profile Simon Szembiring showed me at the start of the episode? The one he thought was Michael de Guzman? A day after I sent a message, a reply pinged into my inbox. Could he really be about to reveal himself after all this time?

[Michael Antonio de Guzman Jr.]

Michael Antonio de Guzman.

[Suzanne Wilton]

But this was not the Michael de Guzman as Sambiring had thought and I had hoped, but the son he had with Genie, who he affectionately called Big Boy.

[Jeannie de Guzman]

As Mike went missing, I got entrusted with another Mike. He's really the copy version of his dad. From his genius thinking, his trades and his works, is also in geology. He's absolutely the copy of his dad.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Michael Jr. Was a young baby when his dad died.

[Michael Antonio de Guzman Jr.]

All I know about my dad is that he's a geologist. That's the main thing. I've played around with his reports, basically whatever he left behind at our house back in Jakarta. And I know he's responsible for some of the major mines that is currently producing in Indonesia for the past 20 years. Other than that, I know he's a really good family man. Then, based on the stories, and I guess judging my own personal traits, I know he's someone that doesn't lie. And then he keeps to himself. It's not violent, but he's Harsh like. He's very direct. He's straightforward. Then I guess pretty much that's all I know.

[Suzanne Wilton]

Michael de Guzman Jr. Has no personal memories of his dad, but has heard stories about him from relatives. He not only looks identical to a young Michael de Guzman. He's developing the same career as his dad. Geology. When Michael de Guzman Jr. Went to study geology at university, he found that the breech story got there before him.

[Michael Antonio de Guzman Jr.]

It just surprises me that by the time that I step into uni because I'm taking geology, turns out that one of my friends. Friends, we're about the same age. Her parents know about my dad and is actually one of the investors who invested in BRE X from Australia. And then her family is one of the family that is affected by the whole economical breakdown. They didn't really bear hatred to my dad or me specifically. They just know that mining is a dangerous game.

[Suzanne Wilton]

I've been connected to the Briac story for more than two decades now. And I've spent the last couple of years traveling across the world to Jakarta and Manila, speaking to everyone involved in this story. Or at least everyone who would agree to talk to me. I found out a lot. But there are still so many questions that remain unanswered. If I can't speak to Michael de Guzman, then perhaps the other person who could have unlocked this whole thing was the man he spent his final days with. On de Guzman's last night, he and BRE X metallurgist Rudi Vega discussed how they were going to present their lab results at the Crunch meeting in Busang. I would love to know what they came up with. Vega was meant to be on that helicopter ride to Busang, but instead he waved the flight off. Why didn't he go with de Guzman to the showdown with Freeport? Did he have a role in any of this? In 1997, when the whole bre x thing went down. De Guzman's son was too young to remember any of his father's colleagues. I asked him if over the years he'd ever heard from any of them.

[Michael Antonio de Guzman Jr.]

I actually did. Back when I was in grade four or third grade and fourth grade, we were still in Palanka. I received a phone call through my cell phone. It was just recently registered. But I remember it was way too early in the morning. Around like 4 or 3am I received a call. It's just the sound of an old man. And he just said, like, I'm really sorry for what I've done to your family. And then when I asked who this was. I'd heard the name Rudi Vega.

[Suzanne Wilton]

But what had Rudi Vega done to the de Guzman family? What was he sorry for? Was the person on the other end of the line even Rudi Vega? Or was it de Guzman? A few years after the call, Vega died. And with it, an opportunity to discover the truth. Despite the fallout from the $6 billion gold scam, Michael de Guzman Jr has buckled down and focused his ambition into becoming a world class geologist. And as he puts it, maybe I.

[Michael Antonio de Guzman Jr.]

Could but start my own mines, get some investors, and again, be the better Mike de Guzman.

[Suzanne Wilton]

The $6 billion gold scam is produced by BBC Scotland Productions for the BBC World Service and CBC. I'm Suzanne Wilton. Our lead producer is Kate Bissell. Producers Anna Miles, Mark Rickards research by Tom Hinckley story consultant Jack Kibble White music and sound design by Hannis Brown Additional sound design and audio mix by Joel Cox Executive editor Heather Kane Darling at cbc, Veronica Simmons and Willow Smith are senior producers. Chris Oak is executive producer, Cecil Fernandez is executive producer and Arif Noorani is the director. Roeshni Nair and Anna Achiete, our coordinating producers. Tanya Springer is the senior manager of audience at the BBC World Service. Ann Dixie is senior podcast producer and John Minnell is the podcast commissioning editor. Thanks for listening.

[Richard Jacobson]

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