← WSJ Tech News Briefing
WSJ Tech News Briefing
This Company Has a Plan to Beat Neuralink at the Brain-Computer Interface Game
00:36:12
Loading summary
Transcript135 lines
- [00:00]
Tim Higgins
At kpmg, we make the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive M and a success or.
- [00:07]
Michael Mager
Embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage.
- [00:11]
Tim Higgins
KPMG make the Difference.
- [00:14]
Michael Mager
Learn more at www.kpmg US Insights.
- [00:22]
Christopher Mims
Hey TNV listeners. We often chat about the intersection of science and tech here, so we thought you'd like this episode of another WSJ podcast called Bold. Each week, hosts Tim Higgins and Christopher Mims sit down with leaders of prominent companies featured in the pages of the Wall Street Journal. On their latest episode, they talk with the CEO of Precision Neuroscience. It's a company that aims to help people with severe mobility issues stay connected with the digital world and it hopes brain implants for millions of people will help them do just that. But how does it work? How soon will it be available and how steep is the cost? They get into all of that, so give it a listen. And if you like what you hear, give Bold names a follow too. Tim, what do you think is the hottest show on television right now?
- [01:16]
Tim Higgins
Well, in my house it is Severance on Apple tv.
- [01:19]
Christopher Mims
What if I told you that the Brain Tech and Severance exists in real life, but instead of being owned by an evil corporation and it is being pioneered by a benevolent startup which sees it as the future of helping millions of people who are otherwise unable to interact with the world?
- [01:36]
Tim Higgins
That's hopeful, but it sounds expensive.
- [01:38]
Christopher Mims
Oh, it will be expensive. We're going to get into it in today's pod.
- [01:41]
Tim Higgins
That's next.
- [01:45]
Christopher Mims
Brain implants are going to be hot in 2025. Dozens of people could get a new kind of implant in the next year. That's according to today's guest. And if his company gets its way in the not too distant future, you might join them.
- [02:00]
Michael Mager
The array itself is 22 microns thick, so that's a fifth of the width of a human hair. And the system sits conformally on the surface of the brain without penetrating into the brain and creates this incredibly rich picture of neural activity in real time.
- [02:17]
Tim Higgins
That's Michael Mager, the co founder and CEO of of Precision Neuroscience, the company that will be installing these things in people's heads. He has a pretty ambitious goal, giving patients with severe paralysis powers like telepathy and telekinesis, or at least their computer enabled equivalence.
- [02:38]
Michael Mager
Precision Neuroscience is developing something called a brain computer interface. And a brain computer interface enables people to control computers you using only their thoughts.
- [02:48]
Christopher Mims
They've got plenty of competition, including Elon Musk's startup Neuralink and Synchron which is backed by Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates. We reported this week that Synchron is also working with Apple to develop ways for people with brain computer interfaces to use its devices. This is easily the most science fiction y thing we've ever had on this show, but it's real. The US Food and Drug Administration recently approved a core part of Precision's new technology. Welcome to a future we've long been promised. And it's finally here, the commercialization of brain computer interfaces.
- [03:23]
Tim Higgins
From the Wall Street Journal, I'm Tim Higgins.
- [03:26]
Christopher Mims
And I'm Christopher Mims. This is Bold Names, where you'll hear from the leaders of the bold named companies featured in the pages of the Wall Street Journal today. We ask, is humanity ready for Brain imp?
- [03:44]
Tim Higgins
Thank you for joining us in studio in New York City at the heart of the Wall Street Journal. And before we get going, I just want to let the listeners know we are going to talk about a little thing called brain surgery. But we don't want to get too technical or too gory. This is not.
- [04:02]
Christopher Mims
Do it for yourself, Tim.
- [04:03]
Tim Higgins
Well, this is not an episode of the Pit or severance, but that's what your company does, right? Digging right into the head to insert what is essentially a computer. But before we dig into your business, can you help describe what that's like? We're not talking about sticking a big old MacBook in there, I presume.
- [04:23]
Michael Mager
Right. So Precision Neuroscience is developing something called a brain computer interface. And a brain computer interface enables people to control computers using only their thoughts. It is a medical implant, as you note. And this sounds like something out of science fiction, but it is very real. Actually, there's been 20 years at this point of validation in some of the leading academic centers in the world where people who are generally paralyzed have been implanted with prototype versions of brain computer interfaces and then have been able to do amazing things. They've been able to control a computer cursor with their thoughts. They've been able to play digital video games. They've been able to create digital art. They've been able to send text messages and emails, again, all using only their thought. But the proofs of concept so far have really been prototype type devices developed in academia. They can't be manufactured at scale. And so as a result, this technology has up until today touched fewer than 100 people's lives. So in 20 years, fewer than 100 people, it's really very little impact. And so what we are doing at Precision Neuroscience and what a few other companies are doing is taking this Technology that we know works, productizing it so that it can, you know, it's robust enough to go through the rigorous FDA regulatory process and so that it can be manufactured at scale and ultimately reach the hundreds of thousands and eventually millions of people who stand to benefit.
- [05:56]
Tim Higgins
So the goal here is to help people who have maybe neurological injuries or diseases.
- [06:01]
Michael Mager
Yeah. The initial target population is people who are severely paralyzed.
- [06:06]
Tim Higgins
And severely paralyzed meaning you're gonna have them walk again?
- [06:10]
Michael Mager
No. Eventually, we hope. But in the first instance, what we know we can do is give people who are unable to use their arms and hands and as a result can't operate computers or phones or other digital devices in the way that we take for granted.
- [06:25]
Christopher Mims
So they're, quote, unquote, locked in. So it's ALS or it's other types of paralysis.
- [06:29]
Michael Mager
Locked in suggests an inability to speak. And that is a sub portion of this population. Some people who are severely paralyzed also are unable to communicate at all. And what this technology is going to enable them to do is to operate digital devices using only their thought and really rejoin sort of a digital ecosystem. The reason that people are severely paralyzed, as you mentioned, is generally spinal cord injury, certain kinds of degenerative diseases like als, and then certain kinds of stroke, which leave the brain, the cortex intact, but disrupt the connection between the brain and the rest of the body.
- [07:06]
Tim Higgins
So what's the process like? What's involved in getting this set up?
- [07:10]
Michael Mager
Well, different companies have different approaches.
- [07:13]
Tim Higgins
Your approach, what's your approach?
- [07:15]
Michael Mager
The best approach, because I will say.
- [07:17]
Tim Higgins
This, MIMS last night was like, dude, you gotta watch this video of this thing. It's like brain surgery. And I was like, I had spaghetti for dinner last night, and that just was not gonna happen. So I didn't see the video. So let's paint a picture, a verbal picture of what this is like.
- [07:33]
Michael Mager
So I co founded Precision with Ben Rapoport, as well as Mark Heddock and Dimitri Papagiorgio. But Ben is really the architect of the system that we're designing at Precision. Ben is a neurosurgeon. He also has a PhD in electrical engineering. He understands the anatomy that we're dealing with. He understands the electrical nature of the brain, and he's been preparing to start this company his whole life. He was also one of the co founders of Neuralink, so has seen it being done a different way.
- [08:03]
Tim Higgins
Neuralink is Elon Musk's version of this. We'll get into that. But first, so, okay, how do you set this thing up? It's not as simple as just putting a DVD in a DVD player, right?
- [08:12]
Michael Mager
That's right. Basically, the brain is an electrical organ. And so what we do is measure that electrical activity At a higher resolution than has ever been done before. There are different approaches to how to get sensors, electrodes, to measure the brain's electrical activity into the brain in a safe and stable way. Our system is based on something called a cortical surface array. So it sits on the surface of the brain without damaging the brain. It's a very, very thin film. It's less than the width of a piece of Scotch tape. And it kind of looks like.
- [08:50]
Tim Higgins
To me, it looks like a fruit Roll up.
- [08:52]
Michael Mager
Sure. It's not how we describe it.
- [08:55]
Tim Higgins
Does it taste like one? That's the question.
- [08:59]
Michael Mager
The microelectrode array, we have 10, 24 tiny platinum electrodes that are picking up the electrical activity of the brain. Most of them are 50 microns in diameter. So just to give you context, that is roughly the size of an individual neuron. And the array itself is 22 microns thick. So that's a fifth of the width of a human hair. And the system sits conformally on the surface of the brain without penetrating into the brain and. And creates this incredibly rich picture of neural activity in real time.
- [09:31]
Christopher Mims
And so this is because there's so much activity visible from the outside of the brain, but inside the skull.
- [09:37]
Michael Mager
It's inside the skull, and it is interfacing directly with neural tissue. And part of the advantage of this approach is it's able to cover large areas of the brain surface without doing any incremental damage to the brain. Some of the competing approaches to this technology and actually some of the sort of academic work that created this as an industry, Were based on penetrating electrodes. So microelectrodes that actually sort of puncture the neural tissue and in so doing, you know, damage neural tissue in order to create this interface between brains and electrodes.
- [10:12]
Tim Higgins
And these are like little hairs that kind of go into the brain.
- [10:14]
Michael Mager
The original version of this is more like wires. And the neuralink system is based on taking the wire concept and making it softer and more pliable.
- [10:26]
Christopher Mims
We just heard how in the past 20 years, fewer than 100 people have had this technology installed in their heads. But precision neuroscience wants to make it normal for millions of people to get brain implants. How the heck are they going to.
- [10:39]
Michael Mager
Do it in order to reach the people who stand to benefit? This is a medical device and should be and will be reimbursed by insurance.
- [10:48]
Christopher Mims
Stay with us.
- [10:53]
Michael Mager
With leading networking and connectivity, advanced cybersecurity and expert partnership. Comcast business helps turn today's enterprises into engines of modern business. Powering the engine of modern business powering possibilities. Restrictions apply.
- [11:13]
Christopher Mims
Now that we understand how this works and the mechanics of it. Take me into the future. Like, what is the bigger picture here? The long term vision.
- [11:25]
Michael Mager
What we're focused on today is addressing a very real medical need. Precision is a healthcare company and we were founded to make a meaningful, positive difference to human health. The way that we're doing that is to allow people who are right now paralyzed, generally homebound, isolated. It has severe implications in terms of mental health, in terms of people's ability to have a job if they choose and give them back. Seamless control of computers. The academic prototype versions of this technology have allowed people to control computer cursors, maybe do a click. Our ambitions are a lot greater than that. When we think about seamless control of a computer, we think about productivity suite like Google or Microsoft Office or really rich complex video games and communication systems. So we think by doing that we have the potential to create a really meaningful business and do something very positive to human health. Initially focused on people who are severely paralyzed, who can't use their arms and hands, and in some cases can't speak. But over time extending to people who have some form of motor deficit, but less severe than total paralysis. So think about people who perhaps have had strokes and so they have partial use of one of their arms and hands. People who have very severe arthritis and are unable to use a phone or a keyboard in the way that you or I can. This is a population that is at least single digit millions in the United States alone.
- [13:07]
Christopher Mims
And is your goal that eventually insurance will pay for this?
- [13:11]
Michael Mager
I think access is critical and it has to be paid for by insurance. I think there's a really robust model for how this should work. And we're not reinventing the wheel here in terms of reimbursement, but in order to reach the people who stand to benefit. This is a medical device and should be and will be reimbursed by insurance.
- [13:32]
Tim Higgins
So this is something that's going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to get done.
- [13:35]
Michael Mager
Well, we estimate that each of these products being developed by separate companies are going to cost somewhere between 250 and $500 million to take from concept to market for the development.
- [13:50]
Tim Higgins
That's not the individual person.
- [13:51]
Michael Mager
Exactly. They're not going to cost $250 million on a unit cost. But to your point, you're absolutely right that unlike for Example, a pharmaceutical product where the marginal cost is effectively zero. These devices will cost several thousand dollars each. So they have real unit costs. In order to justify all that, in order to justify the capital that's required to develop these systems and then to create a sustainable industry and that is able to reinvest profits in additional applications of this technology, we need reimbursement in the six figures.
- [14:24]
Tim Higgins
I guess I have to imagine getting some form of mobility, perhaps someday being able to walk. The cost of care going forward is probably less for folks. So it's kind of maybe some of that washes out.
- [14:36]
Michael Mager
That's right. I mean, we're working on sort of a holistic health economics analysis. But what people don't necessarily know is that when someone's paralyzed, you know, they are generally taken out of the workforce. So people who are severely paralyzed are 60% less likely to be employed than people who are able bodied. But often it will also take a caregiver out of the workforce and usually that is a family member. And so when you think about the human well being costs, but also just the societal and financial costs of taking two people who are totally sound of mind, and it's just been a disruption between the connection between the brain and the body, taking two otherwise totally sound of mind people out of the workforce, it's really considerable. So I think that there's a very strong moral justification for reimbursement for this technology as well as strong financial backing.
- [15:36]
Christopher Mims
So how close are we to this really rolling out? As a consumer, not a consumer product, you're not going to get it over the counter. But we've seen some recent FDA approvals for related devices. So what's our timetable?
- [15:50]
Michael Mager
Well, we received our first FDA clearance, which is a really exciting milestone for precision. And I think for the industry this is a major step forward. I think it takes us closer to commercializing the product and to the widespread sort of clinical impact that we seek. The FDA clearance is for a device that is implantable up to 30 days. So it's not the fully implanted permanent implant that we are working on in parallel. But there are some meaningful things that we can do with a temporary implant.
- [16:23]
Christopher Mims
How long until the permanent one?
- [16:25]
Michael Mager
I think in the next five years you are going to see an explosion in the number of people that this technology touches from precision and from others. I think there is an understandable, maybe fatigue among some people who have been following this industry over the past two decades. You know, there have been various false dawns. Part of that is some of the enabling technologies that are really required to turn this into an industry like the microelectronics. Very high performance, very low power, a regulatory regime that's ready, and the FDA has really led the way on this. And then, you know, software to decode. We're generating more than a billion data points per patient per minute. We've done 39 implants so far. And so that is just an enormous amount of data. To think that these systems were able to work even in a rudimentary way 20 years ago without the use of sophisticated software. But today, I think that's obviously a completely different ballgame. And so, because of some of these enabling technologies and because of capital availability, we are now at the cusp of really seeing this turn into an industry.
- [17:34]
Tim Higgins
So let's just go back to this device that just was approved by the FDA can only be in there up to 30 days. So what does that mean? Why the little amount of time and what needs to happen to get to that bigger amount of time?
- [17:45]
Michael Mager
Right, yeah. So there are two parallel tracks at Precision. One is we are developing the fully implanted permanent implant that we hope people have for many, many years and hopefully forever, just like the other companies in the space. But in parallel to that, Precision has the opportunity, and this is unique within the BCI industry. Bci, sorry, Brain computer interface, excuse me, for the acronym that allows us to get to market much faster. And that's because of the intrinsic safety of our system, because it doesn't damage the brain, because it is reversible.
- [18:27]
Tim Higgins
That idea that the fruit roll up is just kind of sitting on top of the.
- [18:30]
Michael Mager
That's right. The fruit roll up can be removed.
- [18:33]
Tim Higgins
And whereas if you're sticking the cords into the brain, that is a much more invasive process.
- [18:38]
Michael Mager
So the Precision system has access to what's called the 510 pathway through the FDA for approval. And we have developed a product that is in parallel to the permanent implant, which is effectively the same thing. It's the same fruit roll up in your analogy, connected to electronics and connected to a computer, where an algorithm decodes neural activity. But instead of all being wireless and fully encapsulated in hermetically sealed packages that are biocompatible and in the body forever, the wired system is designed to be explanted within a certain amount of time.
- [19:14]
Tim Higgins
Explanted sounds like a nice way of saying pulled out, removed, yanked out, yank.
- [19:21]
Michael Mager
Is not a surgical technique.
- [19:24]
Tim Higgins
Thank God. Well, so, okay, so it sounds like you're in this two 0.2 pathways, because some might think, okay, 30 days. That seems pretty incremental, like, in the grand scheme of things. But it sounds like you're saying this is a big step towards this other thing. And I guess I wonder, okay, how close are you to that other thing? How close to not having to get this thing replaced every month or so?
- [19:47]
Michael Mager
So from a functionality standpoint, we're nearly there. So why nearly there?
- [19:51]
Tim Higgins
Like, next week? Or what's holding you back from being there?
- [19:55]
Michael Mager
Let me explain. So I mentioned that we've implanted 39 people. So. And just to take a step back, the company was founded in 2021, so we're almost exactly four years old. In the past two years, we've implanted 39 people. The way that we've been able to implant people is in research settings where they're already undergoing a neurosurgical procedure. For example, they have a tumor that a surgeon is resecting. An RA is placed on their brain. Often these patients are awake during the procedures. And so we can run certain research protocols, really, to test the safety and the efficacy of the system. That's the most important thing. Like, we want to make sure that what we're doing is working and also to start training the algorithm to be able to decode neural activity and use it to drive a function. Generally, the duration of these implants has been a matter of hours. And when they're awake, we can ask them to do certain protocols. So, for example, they can wear a glove with lots of sensors on it, and we can correlate the movements of their fingers with the neural activity, or we can ask them to say certain words. And again, we're correlating the movements of their mouth and their tongue to the underlying neural activity that's driving that movement. But the people in these cases are really only awake for 20 or 30 minutes, and they're anesthetized, they're a little bit out of it, and they're undergoing a surgery. And so the quality of the data is good, but it's not perfect. Even in those settings, we have been able to achieve computer control with 10 minutes of training data. We're going to start releasing demonstrations of what the precision system is doing. But we've also been able to allow people to control robotic hands, again, using only their thought, and with only 10 minutes of training data. What the 510 approval allows us to do is implant a lot more people.
- [21:52]
Christopher Mims
So dozens more people, hundreds more people.
- [21:54]
Michael Mager
We'Ll see, but it's somewhere in between.
- [21:56]
Christopher Mims
Those two numbers and over what time period?
- [22:00]
Michael Mager
Starting now.
- [22:01]
Christopher Mims
And that's so this year you could have a dozen more people with this.
- [22:04]
Michael Mager
I think we're have a lot more than that. I mean, we did 20 last year, I think, and that was pre approval. So I think it's going to be.
- [22:10]
Christopher Mims
So there are going to be dozens, up to 100 people by 20, 26 walking around with this.
- [22:16]
Michael Mager
Literally no. So this is still a temporary implant. So it still has the requirement that it's removed, not yanked, but removed within 30 days. But what that means is we're going to be able to work with people and train the algorithms not with minutes or hours of data per person, but days and weeks.
- [22:40]
Christopher Mims
Previously we've reported that Elon Musk has said the surgery to implant neuralink's brain chip is like replacing a chunk of your skull with a smartwatch and then sewing threads into brain tissue so they sit close to neurons and directly relay their electrical signals. Also, Synchron has said its stent like device can pick up signals directly from the brain's motor cortex. It sits in a blood vessel between the two hemispheres of the brain.
- [23:05]
Tim Higgins
We just heard about one of the big differences between Precision's approach to brain computer interfaces and some of its rivals, including Elon Musk's Neuralink. If Precision's tech is removable, does that also mean it's upgradable, like getting a new iPhone?
- [23:22]
Michael Mager
It's 1024 electrodes on one of the films, but we can place multiple on the brain at once. We've actually set the world record for the highest bandwidth connection.
- [23:31]
Tim Higgins
That's next. Think about a bicycle. It takes balance to get where you want to go. Now think about business. Whatever your business or organization, you ride.
- [23:46]
Michael Mager
The line between numbers and people. Just like the bike. It takes balance.
- [23:51]
Tim Higgins
CLA, CPAs Consultants and Wealth Advisors. We'll get you there.
- [23:55]
Michael Mager
CLA Clifton Larson Allen LLP is an independent network member of CLA. Global investing involves risk, including risk of loss. Investment advisory services are offered through Clifton Larson Allen Wealth Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.
- [24:14]
Christopher Mims
So you're talking about a lot of Precision. It's right in your name, right? Precision Neuroscience. You've described your company as a health company. And I think it's reflected in your background and of your co founder who was at Neuralink and y' all have talked publicly about neuralink as a tech company. What distinction are you trying to make there?
- [24:35]
Michael Mager
Well, I mean, I think if you look at. You said it. Well, you know, if you look at the founding mission for Neuralink, what they've stated publicly, it is to Create some sort of symbiosis between human and artificial intelligence, such that we don't get left behind by artificial general intelligence. If and when that emerges, that is a fine mission. Maybe it's the right mission, but it is not our mission. Our mission is really human health oriented. We're a health care company. And I think that that's built into the DNA of the company as well as the architecture of the system itself. This concept of a system that is intrinsically safe, it's non damaging to the brain, it's reversible, but it also provides a really high bandwidth connection. Right.
- [25:25]
Christopher Mims
You have a thousand electrodes. Right. On the brain. I picture it like one of those old school when you would plug in a printer in the 80s and there's like 200 pins on it or something.
- [25:32]
Michael Mager
Yeah. I mean, and not only it's 1,024 electrodes on one of the films, but we can place multiple on the brain at once. We've actually set the world record for the highest bandwidth connection ever achieved.
- [25:44]
Christopher Mims
Is that a Guinness record? Was that verified?
- [25:47]
Michael Mager
I can't speak to that. Our research of the academic literature suggests that it is a record by several times. But 4096 electrodes, and that just shows you that sort of this is a scalable approach, that you can put multiple of these electrode arrays on the brain at once. And they're designed to do that without any incremental damage to the underlying null tissue.
- [26:09]
Tim Higgins
I mean, I think this is not a field that gets a lot of attention normally. And I think one of the things that Elon Musk involvement has done is. Has made it almost pop culture. I mean, people are seeing it on the Twitter. I guess we call it X now. That dates me. But this is old man hour here at the Wall Street Journal.
- [26:33]
Christopher Mims
You were born before 2010.
- [26:35]
Tim Higgins
Okay, grandpa. It gets attention. Right. But that also comes with this perception that he's ahead, he's leading the field. My sense from hearing you is that you feel like perhaps you're ahead or he's not as far ahead as people would think.
- [26:52]
Michael Mager
Yeah. I mean, I think it really just depends how you define who's in the lead. I think when we look at where we are, we've set the record for the highest resolution system that's ever been tested. I think our team is.
- [27:06]
Christopher Mims
Yeah, but how many followers do you have on X?
- [27:09]
Michael Mager
Fair point.
- [27:09]
Tim Higgins
The approach you're doing is you want to be able to get more out there to see how it is.
- [27:13]
Michael Mager
That's exactly right. And it's also, I Think a design philosophy where, you know, you really want to make sure that the system that you are developing is working in the way that you intend. You want to get feedback from both the patients as well as the clinicians and the surgical staff, the nurses, the administrators. All of that is critical to building a business. And that's ultimately how you have impact. And the sooner you can get that feedback and the, the more feedback you can get, I think, the greater your chances of success.
- [27:39]
Tim Higgins
Well, speaking of government efficiencies, the Trump administration has been making a lot of cuts to various agencies. I'm curious how that affects your work in particular with the fda. I think some other medical companies have suggested they're seeing delays in getting approvals. Approval from the FDA is so key to the gateways of your business plan. What are you seeing?
- [28:04]
Michael Mager
So far there's been no perceptible impact from our side, our 510. The FDA has a goal of responding within 90 days for these sort of submissions. I'll also say that the FDA is a tremendous source of strength. So bci, it's an industry that is gathering steam not just in the United States, but elsewhere as well. It's explicitly called out on China's five year plan. Wow. There is technology that's being developed in Europe as well, but by far the lion's share of the development and the dollars and the talent are in the United States. And a major part of that is the fda. The FDA has been incredibly forward thinking. They put out draft guidance for this industry four years ago, so quite a long time ago. And we need regulatory clarity in order to plan ourselves. That's really important. The FDA is staffed and the division that regulates us is staffed with PhDs who have, is still staffed, is still staff. Again, I don't have inside information into the fda, but all of our interactions suggest that everyone we've been working with is still.
- [29:12]
Christopher Mims
I mean, that's great because drug makers are really crying uncle right now.
- [29:17]
Michael Mager
I've read about the same thing. It just hasn't been our experience yet and I hope it never is.
- [29:20]
Christopher Mims
So as we're looking forward, we're in a climate where there is, I think, increased skepticism toward mainstream medicine. Do you worry that that will affect adoption approval? Is that a concern?
- [29:37]
Michael Mager
I mean, I think it's part of the reason that it's incumbent on me and other people who are in this industry to talk about what we're doing so people understand that this has a really important medical application. And I think the other thing about it is it's just so binary when you think about drugs. The effect size is generally smaller and you need very large numbers of people in order to. To statistically power a study with brain computer interfaces. You know, immediately if it works or it does not work. You know, someone can either control a computer with their thoughts or they cannot. And it's very clear and it's very sort of evident, self evident.
- [30:18]
Christopher Mims
So what point are you going to, like FedEx US wanted to try out. I mean, my colleague Joanna Stern, I feel like she could make an incredible video about this.
- [30:29]
Michael Mager
Great. Afterwards, I'll have to get Ben in here to do the dirty work. But yeah, absolutely.
- [30:35]
Tim Higgins
Come on down. Let's take a step back to be kind of serious, though, for a second. I mean, we're all very serious here, but I mean, what you're working on has the potential to change people's lives. I mean, we're talking about people who are suffering from very real conditions, giving hope at a time when things can seem hopeless. How do you reconcile walking that line as the CEO who has got to sell with also the reality that this can be a little bit slower than developing the next iPhone or whatever consumer device?
- [31:08]
Michael Mager
Yeah, I think that that's. It is definitely my job to sell. Part of running a medical device company means raising large amounts of capital over long periods of time. It's like developing a drug where you have many, many years of just cash outflows ahead of regulatory approval and then meaningful revenue and hopefully financial sustainability. I think that there is growing recognition that even though what we're doing is hard and it all has to work together perfectly every time. It's like aerospace in terms of the margin for error. It is difficult, but I think that there is growing recognition that this is going to create some really big companies over time. It's not something that happens by snapping your finger, but I think the size of the prize here is tremendous. Morgan Stanley put out a report last year that estimated a $400 billion total addressable market for brain computer interfaces that was not driven by neuralink. That's just looking at the space and looking at a few of the players in it.
- [32:18]
Christopher Mims
I feel like that assumes they're going to capture every gamer on earth.
- [32:22]
Michael Mager
It's not consumer. This is all medical. $400 billion of addressable market just in medicine. And then if we can achieve more widespread use and replace the iPhone, who knows? But that's not why Precision was founded. I think that there's a growing recognition that the opportunity in the next 10, 20 years is going to be for products that are effectively enabled by software, but which have a hardware element to them. And so I think that there's an open mindedness to what we're doing in a way that even a few years ago there wasn't.
- [32:55]
Tim Higgins
As we wind down here, let's end where we began. Severance, that popular show about a brain implant that allows humans to essentially detach from the unpleasant parts of their life. Is that where you're headed when you watch that show? Do you feel any special kinness to it or a special attachment to it? Does it get in your head?
- [33:15]
Michael Mager
I'm only on episode two of the second season, so I just can't comment.
- [33:20]
Tim Higgins
Because the brain implant company is the bad guy in the show. Thank you for the time. This has been very interesting to hear from you directly and in studio.
- [33:30]
Christopher Mims
Yeah, Special treat. You're our first.
- [33:31]
Michael Mager
Thank you. Thank you for honoring me with this.
- [33:34]
Tim Higgins
And it wasn't as gory as brain surgery. The FDA did not comment on its staffing levels.
- [33:41]
Christopher Mims
We also reached out to Neuralink and Synchron. They did not respond.
- [33:47]
Tim Higgins
And that's bold. Names for this week. Our producer is Danny Lewis. Michael Lavall and Jessica Fetton are our sound designers. Jessica also wrote our theme music.
- [33:56]
Christopher Mims
Our supervising producer is Kathryn Millsab. Our development producer is Aisha Al Muslim. Scott Salloway and Chris Zinsley are the deputy editors. And Falana Patterson is the Wall Street Journal's head of news audio.
- [34:10]
Tim Higgins
For even more, check out our columns on WSJ.com we've linked them in the show Notes.
- [34:17]
Christopher Mims
I'm Christopher Mims.
- [34:18]
Tim Higgins
And I'm Tim Higgins. Thanks for listening.
- [34:33]
Christopher Mims
Isn't home where we all want to be, reba? Here for realtor.com, the Pro's number one.
- [34:38]
Tim Higgins
Most trusted app, Finding a home is like dating.
- [34:41]
Christopher Mims
You're searching for the one with over.
- [34:44]
Tim Higgins
500,000 new listings every month.
- [34:46]
Michael Mager
You can find the one today.
- [34:48]
Tim Higgins
Download the realtor.com app cause you're nearly home. Make it real with realtor.com Pro's number.
- [34:56]
Michael Mager
One most trusted app is based on August 2024 proprietary survey.
- [34:58]
Tim Higgins
Over 500,000 new listings every month based.
- [35:00]
Michael Mager
On average new for sale and rental listings February 2024 through January 2025.