B (3:08)

Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the tactics, because that's something that really has come into focus a lot since President Trump started his second term. But I'm curious what kind of training ICE agents receive?

C (3:20)

So the training is evolving as we speak. Traditionally, an ICE officer is supposed to get something like 16 weeks of training, and that includes everything from learning the basics of immigration law, physical training, law enforcement training, how to use a gun, for example, and also learning to speak Spanish. And this administration, because they're trying to bring on so many new ICE agents, they're basically doubling the size of the agency, have really cut down that training. First of all, they completely eliminated the Spanish requirement. They're telling people it's totally fine. You can just use a phone app to translate your conversations with people. They've cut down everything, even including the firearms. Training is shorter than it used to be, and a lot of the training is actually literally now done online.

B (4:07)

It seems like some of that training is evolving based on what agents are allowed to or expected to do. How have we seen that play out?

C (4:15)

There are several ways, but critics of ICE have always had this sense that it's a little bit of a rogue agency. But I will say, as someone watching ice, in the past, even under the first Trump administration, largely speaking, the way ICE would operate was a little bit closer to a traditional police agency, where they would put in a decent amount of police work. Before they try to go arrest someone, they do some work to figure out, okay, we know this person is in the country illegally because they have a final deportation order because they have this address on file with the government. We know who they are. We know where they live, so we're gonna go try to get them now.

D (4:52)

What's happening more and more is ICE officers is really being driven by the pressure that they're under to arrest lots of people. And so what we're seeing is they're actually using basic profiling tactics to see if they can't find immigrants a little bit more quickly.

B (5:07)

One of the things that's come up over the past year or so, especially in some of these legal challenges of ISIS actions, is this concept of reasonable suspicion. What is and how is that kind of shifting?

D (5:19)

So there are two steps to making an arrest. You need to have reasonable suspicion to stop someone who questioned them, but then you need to have what's called probable.

C (5:29)

Cause to actually take them into your custody.

D (5:32)

You can't reasonably suspect that someone's in.

C (5:34)

The country illegally just because they're Hispanic.

D (5:37)

But what the Supreme Court has said.

C (5:39)

Recently is that you can actually take a number of those profiling factors.

D (5:43)

Let's say you are Hispanic and you.

C (5:46)

Look terrified when you see the ICE.

D (5:48)

Officer that suddenly now does rise to.

C (5:52)

The level of reasonable suspicion to then stop someone and say, okay, do you have proof of your citizenship?

B (5:58)

I understand that there's a pretty changing standard around whether ICE is allowed to enter your home without a warrant. What's going on there?

C (6:06)

Yeah, this is a huge deal. Typically in the past, you would need the sign off of a judge who sort of independently evaluated the evidence and decided that level of force needed. But they ICE has just decided we need to be making more arrests. We're going to disregard that and we're going to argue that this administrative warrant that ICE itself produces is enough to force down someone's door, break in and arrest them.

B (6:31)

Coming up, what happens to the people that ICE detains and potential impacts of legal challenges against the agency. That's after the break.

E (6:42)

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B (7:04)

What is happening these days to people who are detained? I remember back to the first Trump administration. There was the child separation policy that got a lot of attention. But. But let's say that you are in the country illegally. What happens to you?

D (7:17)

ICE is moving quickly to try to deport people as fast as they can.

C (7:22)

Because once someone is out of the.

D (7:23)

Country, it's harder to force ICE to bring them back. They have admitted to wrongly deporting multiple people. There are lots of sorts of procedural.

C (7:32)

And human rights arguments that people can make. When you're in ICE custody in the.

D (7:36)

United States to say your detention is illegal to get you out of ICE custody on bond, for example. But once you've been deported, your recourse is very limited.

B (7:46)

There have been reports of people who have died in ICE custody since President Trump took office. How common an occurrence is that?

D (7:53)

I haven't really done the proportionality, but because ICE is just so much more ubiquitous and visible now, it does mean that they're getting into more of these confrontations with people. And so most famously you have the shooting death of Renee Goode, and we've seen a really high number of deaths.

C (8:10)

In in ICE detention.

D (8:12)

And that's partially because there are just.

C (8:14)

So many more people in ICE Detention. You will have more people who end up really sick and die. The conditions inside ICE detention have been reported to be pretty poor as well.

B (8:24)

But it's not just people who are undocumented. Right? What about people with open asylum cases who are picked up by ice?

D (8:30)

If you have an open asylum case, under the law, you can be detained.

C (8:35)

For the entirety of your asylum case.

D (8:38)

You can't be deported until it's been.

C (8:39)

Decided one way or another.

D (8:41)

But there is no law saying that you have to be free and living in the country. The reason that has come to be is that we have so many asylum seekers, and in the past, it's been understood that we don't have enough space to detain them all and that they're a relatively low priority. If you're not a flight risk, why would you need to be detained? This government is detaining people partially as a deterrent measure to say, if you.

C (9:04)

Are detained that whole time, you're likelier to just give up and leave the country.

B (9:08)

What kinds of lawsuits lawsuits are in the works that could challenge ICE's expanded authority?

D (9:13)

There are all sorts.

C (9:14)

There are ongoing lawsuits around ICE's use of profiling and what is and isn't okay to sort of weigh when you stop someone to question them? There are lawsuits around US Citizens being detained and arrested by ICE wrongfully. There is going to be litigation around this question of are you actually violating people's constitutional rights when you forcibly enter their homes if you don't have a warrant signed by a judge?

B (9:42)

How about the private sector as immigration agents enter businesses? Are those businesses allowed to say, you can't operate here?

C (9:50)

Yeah, it's a really good question, and it's one legally speaking. ICE has several tools. So an officer without a warrant can enter a public part of a business. Let's use a restaurant as an example. They can walk into the front door of a restaurant just the way you and I can. Where ICE has had some problems is the officer will say, okay, let me go back to your kitchen and interview your employees. That's when a restaurant owner can say, I'm sorry, no, that's private property. You can't go there. But if ICE shows up with a warrant or if ICE is doing an employer inspection to say, I need to see the paperwork of your employees to see if they're working here legally, the private business has to comply with that sort of law enforcement action. The other thing I would add is that they're beyond what's legal. A lot of these places are facing really public pressure. For example, Hilton a few weeks ago had a hotel in Minneapolis refuse ICE officers to stay at their hotel. And Hilton got so much blowback.

B (10:46)

Wow.

C (10:47)

Yeah.

B (10:47)

So if you are just a typical US Citizen hanging out in whether example a restaurant and you see an immigration operation going down, what is the sort of best course of action for you?

D (11:01)

As long as you're an observer, you're free to do whatever you want. You are legally allowed to record that interaction. As long as you don't intervene in the interaction, you are okay.

B (11:11)

The Department of Homeland Security is conducting an operation in Maine. How can we expect that to be similar or different from what's been going on in Minneapolis?

C (11:20)

I don't think it's going to be sort of at the same level as Minneapolis, partially because there are fewer officers and they're targeting the entire state. In Minneapolis, what really made that operation so remarkable and it's still ongoing, is that you have a relatively small city of about 400,000 people and 3,000 ICE officers there.

B (11:40)

That was Wall Street Journal reporter Michelle Hackman. Thanks, Michelle.

C (11:44)

Thank you.

B (11:45)

And that's it for what's new Sunday for January 25th. Today's show is produced by Hattie Moyer with supervising producers Sandra Kilhoff and Melanie Roy. I'm Alex Osola and we'll be back tomorrow morning with a brand new show. Until then, thanks for listening.

E (12:04)

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