Trump Wants to Abolish the Education Department. What Comes Next?

Summary

WSJ What’s News: "Trump Wants to Abolish the Education Department. What Comes Next?" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: February 16, 2025
Host: Alex Osola
Guests:

• Ken Thomas, National Political Reporter
• Matt Barnum, Education Reporter

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Introduction

On the February 16th episode of What’s News Sunday, host Alex Osola delves into a significant and controversial proposal by former President Donald Trump: the abolition of the federal Department of Education. This move, rooted in long-standing conservative critiques, seeks to reshape the federal government's role in education. The episode explores the feasibility, implications, and potential outcomes of such an action through insightful discussions with reporters Ken Thomas and Matt Barnum.

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Trump’s Proposal to Abolish the Department of Education

The episode opens with a direct reference to President Trump's recent statements regarding the Department of Education. During an Oval Office interview, Trump asserted his intention to eliminate the department, labeling it a "big con job."

Donald Trump [01:14]: "Oh, I'd like it to be closed immediately. Look, the Department of Education's a big con job."

This assertive stance marks a significant shift in federal education policy, aiming to reduce what conservatives perceive as excessive bureaucracy.

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Understanding the Role of the Department of Education

Ken Thomas provides a comprehensive overview of the Department's functions:

Ken Thomas [01:38]: "The department works with student aid programs, implements Title 1 funding for low-income students, supports students with disabilities, and oversees civil rights cases in schools."

Historically established in 1980, the department has been pivotal in managing federal education initiatives, ensuring equitable funding, and upholding civil rights within educational institutions.

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Debating the Elimination: Arguments For and Against

The discussion shifts to the core debate surrounding the potential dissolution of the department.

Ken Thomas outlines the conservative perspective:

Ken Thomas [02:28]: "Conservatives view the Department of Education as bureaucratic overreach, infringing on voter values. They propose reallocating functions to states via block grants."

However, Thomas also highlights the risks:

Ken Thomas [02:28]: "There's a fear that block grants may not effectively support programs like Title 1, potentially diverting funds away from essential services like after-school programs or teacher hiring in impoverished areas."

Matt Barnum adds depth by discussing the implications of Project 2025, a conservative policy blueprint advocating for the phase-out of Title 1 funding:

Matt Barnum [03:35]: "Project 2025 calls for phasing out Title 1 funding, arguing its ineffectiveness. Critics, however, remain divided on the federal government's role in education."

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Financial Implications and Government Spending Cuts

Alex introduces crucial data regarding the Department's funding:

Alex Osola [04:52]: "In fiscal year 2024, the federal government allocated $224 billion to the Department of Education, representing about 2% of its overall budget."

The conversation then turns to recent actions by the Trump administration, particularly under the Department of Government Efficiency led by Elon Musk, aimed at reducing government expenditures. Matt Barnum references a significant budget-cutting measure:

Matt Barnum [05:23]: "Doge announced the cancellation of 89 contracts at the Department of Education's research arm, valued at approximately $900 million. However, some costs may still be incurred for ongoing projects."

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Political and Legal Hurdles to Abolishing the Department

A critical examination of the challenges in abolishing the Department follows. Ken Thomas explains the legislative obstacles:

Ken Thomas [06:44]: "Eliminating the Department requires a congressional act. With Republicans holding 53 Senate votes, achieving the 60-vote threshold is improbable without significant Democratic support."

Matt Barnum underscores public opinion's role in this endeavor:

Matt Barnum [07:55]: "A Wall Street Journal poll indicates approximately 60% of voters oppose abolishing the Department of Education, presenting a substantial political hurdle."

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Executive Actions and Departmental Changes

The episode explores potential executive maneuvers the Trump administration might employ to undermine the Department without formal abolition. Ken Thomas outlines possible strategies:

Ken Thomas [08:36]: "The administration could reduce the Department's resources, lay off employees, or transfer responsibilities to other agencies like the Treasury or Health and Human Services."

Additionally, Matt Barnum discusses recent shifts within the Department:

Matt Barnum [11:00]: "The Office for Civil Rights has paused its investigations, limiting its capacity to address discrimination based on race, disability, and other factors."

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Leadership and Future Directions

Linda McMahon's confirmation as Secretary of Education marks a pivotal moment. Matt Barnum shares insights from her confirmation hearing:

Matt Barnum [10:12]: "McMahon expressed support for reducing federal involvement in education but acknowledged that abolishing the department would require congressional approval. She also assured that funding for local public schools would remain intact."

This stance raises questions about the administration's long-term strategy:

Matt Barnum [10:53]: "It's unclear whether executive orders alone can achieve the desired reduction without legislative backing, especially if the core programs remain funded."

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Looking Ahead: Monitoring Developments

As the episode concludes, Ken Thomas and Matt Barnum highlight key areas to watch in the upcoming months:

Ken Thomas [11:38]: "We anticipate an executive order outlining the administration's plan to diminish the Department’s influence. Additionally, public and political reactions to broader government overhaul efforts, spearheaded by figures like Elon Musk, could impact the Department's fate."

Matt Barnum [11:31]: "The effectiveness and reception of any proposed changes will be critical in determining whether the administration can navigate the complex political landscape to achieve its goals."

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Conclusion

Alex Osola wraps up the episode by emphasizing the significance of the proposed changes to the Department of Education. With substantial opposition from both the public and within political circles, the path to abolition remains fraught with challenges. The administration's ongoing actions and forthcoming strategies will be pivotal in shaping the future of federal education policy.

Alex Osola [12:44]: "And that's it for what's new Sunday for February 16th. Thanks for listening."

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Produced by: Charlotte Gartenberg with assistance from Deputy Editors Scott Salloway and Chris Insinsley.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the WSJ What’s News episode on President Trump's proposal to abolish the Department of Education, providing a comprehensive overview for those unable to listen to the full podcast.

Transcript

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[Alex Osola]

Hey, what's news, listeners? It's Sunday, February 16th. I'm Alex Osola for the Wall Street Journal. This is what's News Sunday, the show where we tackle the big questions about the biggest stories in the news by reaching out to our colleagues across the newsroom to help explain what's happening in our world this week. President Trump wants to close the Education Department. Can he succeed? And what would happen if he did? The federal Department of Education was established in 1980, and pretty much since then, conservatives have wanted to get rid of it. President Trump has run with the idea both as a candidate and since returning to the White House. A reporter asked him about it in the Oval Office just this past week.

[Donald Trump]

How soon do you want the Department.

[Interviewer]

Of Education to be closed?

[Donald Trump]

Oh, I'd like it to be closed immediately. Look, the Department of Education's a big con job.

[Alex Osola]

A move like this one might not be so simple to pull off. To talk about it, I'm joined by national political reporter Ken Thomas and education reporter Matt Barnum. Ken, I want to start us off with something really basic. What does the federal Education Department actually do?

[Ken Thomas]

Yeah, the department has a long history. Its main functions are to work with student aid programs. It also serves to implement Title 1 funding, which serves low income students. It's also involved in working with funding for dispos disabled students, as well as they have a civil rights division that oversees cases of discrimination in schools. And so while we have had a history in this country of local control and education, much of the curriculum really is a function of local communities and states. There was this view that there was still a need for a department that would help oversee some of these various programs.

[Alex Osola]

Can you quickly just break down the debate over eliminating the department? What are the arguments for and against it?

[Ken Thomas]

Conservatives and Trump have talked about the Department of Education as bureaucracy run amok and a group of bureaucrats who infringe upon the values of some of their voters. And so they want a lot of these functions to be sent back to the states, in many cases in the form of block grants. The fear, if that were to happen, is that A lot of these functions may not be carried out if your Title 1 funding maybe provides after school programs or tutoring, or maybe it helps hire teachers to reduce class sizes in impoverished communities, that maybe those block grants wouldn't serve those purposes or would be diverted into other needs, and that there wouldn't be the oversight to ensure that those students get those resources.

[Alex Osola]

Matt, I want to go to you next because that Title 1 funding is something that came up in Project 2025. That's the big conservative policy book that got a lot of attention during the campaign. President Trump backed away from it a bit, though some of the people who contributed to it are now being picked for roles in his administration. How does that fit here?

[Matt Barnum]

Project 2025 has called for phasing out Title 1 funding over a period of time, so that could mean cuts for high poverty schools. Now they argue that Title one isn't effective. Some supporters of the program say that it is effective. There's also some who would say that the federal government's role has been drastically overstated by critics in the administration and other conservatives, that the federal government isn't the big boogeyman that they say it is.

[Alex Osola]

Okay, I'm hearing that funding is a big part of what the Education Department does. How do concerns about standards and curriculum come into play?

[Matt Barnum]

Funding is a very key role, but over the years, rules have attached to that funding. And there are certain rules that say the states have to have accountability systems to monitor their low performing schools if they want to get the Title 1 money, which all states do. The Individuals with Disability Education act, which has to do with students with disabilities, has rules about serving students with disabilities. And even some local school officials who would not be fans of cutting federal funding would say that the bureaucratic rules and paperwork that come with that funding can be too much.

[Alex Osola]

I want to bring in some data here. So in fiscal year 2024, the federal government committed $224 billion to the Department of Education, which is about 2% of its overall budget. But that's according to data we pulled from USA spending.gov, which is a government website that tracks government spending. The Trump administration, and in particular the Department of Government Efficiency under Elon Musk, has been very focused on cutting government spending. So have the cost cutters looked at the Education Department yet?

[Matt Barnum]

Doge tweeted out that they had canceled 89 contracts at the research arm at the Department of Education, contracts that were worth about $900 million. Now, it's not clear that all of that will be saved because some of those contracts were ongoing for work that has already been done that they would still have to pay out. But it shows that they are aggressively cutting aspects of the federal government and the Department of Ed where they can.

[Alex Osola]

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, what will it take to get rid of the Education Department both politically and legally?

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[Alex Osola]

All right, we've heard the calls to abolish the Department of Education. How could that actually happen? Congress would have to play a role, right?

[Ken Thomas]

Ken, you know, there have been many attempts to eliminate the Department of Education before and they've all failed. And part of the problem is for Republicans right now is that even if they want to eliminate it, they're going to need to come up with the votes. In the Senate, for example, they control 53 votes. They would need to get 60 votes under the current Senate rules to eliminate the department. So that would require that they would get some significant Democratic support. It's not clear that that is out there right now. Most people expect that would be a very difficult lift. I think there's also just a political issue here where a lot of this money for Title 1 or for funding for students with disabilities, they often serve rural poor district, in many cases are Republican areas. So as a result, these programs have had bipartisan support over the years. Any attempt to potentially change the way this money is moved to states and to schools will certainly have a lot of concerns among both Republicans and Democrats.

[Alex Osola]

Matt, do people actually want the Education Department to go away?

[Matt Barnum]

Abolishing the Department of Ed is a really galvanizing promise, but it's also galvanizing for critics. And we've a counter reaction to the idea of abolishing the Department of Education. The Wall Street Journal did a poll and it showed that about 60% of voters were against abolishing the Department of Education. So it's a tough thing to do politically. Maybe they can sell it. Maybe they can change people's minds. Maybe they can have a specific plan to do so that assuages concerns, but it won't be easy, as far as I can tell.

[Alex Osola]

So, functionally, the Trump administration could gut the department without officially having an act of Congress to abolish it. Are those the same thing, or does it kind of depend how it shakes out?

[Ken Thomas]

It depends how it shakes out. They could certainly starve the Department of Resources. Certainly. We could see them try to eliminate a lot of employees. They could also find other ways to configure these programs. There's been discussion, student loans going to Treasury. There's been talk of maybe the Labor Department taking on certain responsibilities. Health and Human Services could certainly take on responsibilities. At one point, the Education Department was part of what is now hhs. There's also a regulatory component. For example, we'll see them maybe try to have a narrower interpretation of what kind of civil rights cases are pursued and the scope to which they are pursued and how they interpret these laws.

[Matt Barnum]

To be clear, the Department of Education is codified in statute. So if you really wanted to officially, legally get rid of the Department of Education as we know it, you would need to go through Congress to do that. The easiest things for them to do, legally and politically, are the things that would make the smallest impact and have the smallest budget, the big ticket items, the things that cost the most, the things that probably have the most regulatory burden. Title one, funding for students with disabilities, the federal student loan program, the existence of the department itself. Those are in statute.

[Alex Osola]

So it's still early in his second term, but Trump is already moving on this agenda, and his nominee for the Secretary of Education, Linda McMahon, just had her confirmation hearing this past week.

[Matt Barnum]

Yeah, so it was very interesting. She generally said that she supported Trump's vision to reduce federal involvement in education, though she stopped short of explicitly calling for the abolishment of the department. She said that Trump and her agreed that it would take an act of Congress to actually get rid of the department. She also emphasized that programs and funding for local public schools would not be cut, even under their vision of getting rid of the Department of Education. So my two big questions after the hearing is, where does this leave the executive order? And then secondly, what exactly is the point of getting rid of the Department of Education if they want to preserve most or all of its programs?

[Alex Osola]

But the administration isn't waiting for its secretary to start making moves. Matt, what else is going on at the department right now?

[Matt Barnum]

I reported just this past week that the Office for Civil Rights at the Department of Education, which investigates discrimination based on race, disability status and other things. Some of its work has been put on a pause in some of its regions, and that's according to two people who spoke to me. And that has limited their ability to do their day to day work of investigating civil rights issues. Some version of a pause or disruption in work is normal with the transition, but folks that I spoke to said that this was much more restrictive than typical.

[Alex Osola]

All right, last question before we go. What are you watching in the coming weeks and months to see where things are headed?

[Ken Thomas]

We're all watching to see what this executive action looks like from the Trump administration. We expect the president to sign some kind of executive order that would start putting this process into place. We don't know exactly what it would entail. You know, we have an idea, as we've described, but we'll all be watching for how they explicitly lay out this plan. I think the other thing to watch for politically is does this push to eliminate the Department of Education, is that hurt by so much of this larger effort to reduce the size of government and this push by Elon Musk to change the way the federal government works, Is there going to be a backlash to all of this work that's being done collectively? The Education Department could certainly be affected by public opinion on how this government overhaul is going.

[Alex Osola]

I've been speaking with national political reporter Ken Thomas and education reporter Matt Barnum. Ken? Matt, thank you both.

[Ken Thomas]

Thank you.

[Matt Barnum]

Thank you.

[Alex Osola]

And that's it for what's new Sunday for February 16th. Today's show was produced by Charlotte Gartenberg with help from deputy editors Scott Salloway and Chris Insinsley. I'm Alex Osola. A programming note. We're off tomorrow for the holiday, but we'll be back Tuesday morning with a new show. Until then, thanks for listening.

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